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View Full Version : The evolution and alignment of Arthas Menethil



Frosty
2008-01-15, 03:19 PM
Here's a fun exercise. No one would question the fact that by the end of Warcraft 3, Arthas Menethil is Evil (and probably lawful). However, what were his alignments before them and when did it shift? As he progresses throughout the human campaign, do you see him as always Good and then suddenly becoming Evil on the last mission, or do you see a gradual slippery slope with the the events of the final mission just being the tipping point? And similar exercise can be done with Anakin Skywalker, although I'm not quite sure what Anakin's alignment is at his moment of death.

Here's my take on it.

I see him as Lawful good all the way up until the end of the mission where he and Jaina defends the town of Andorhal against the undead. The beginning of the next mission, he sees the large city full of peasants about to become undead, and he becomes Lawful Neutral. While his goal of not letting more undead be created is good, whole-sale slaughter can't really be classified as such. He is not slaughtering people for fun or for profit however, so his actions didn't turn him evil.

After the mission, something inside of him snaps as Malganis taunts him, and he then embarks on a journey full of slippery slopes towards Lawful evil. In Northrend, when he lies to his men and betrays the mercenaries that worked for him, the former is iffy between neutral and evil (definitely chaotic), and the latter is definitely evil. I see his lack of remorse at his Dwarven friend's death when he finally claims Frostmourne as proof that at that time, he has definitely become Evil in alignment.

His life was consumed with hatred and the desire for revenge, and after he killed Malganis, he serves his new masters dutifully (lawful), and performs horrific deeds in their name (evil).

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 03:28 PM
It's Arthas.

Sorry, but I actually didn't recognize the name when I read the title, so I'm pointing this out right away in case you want to correct it.

Actual discussion pending.

edit: I more or less agree with your analysis, differing on one key point.

I don't think he actually became Evil until he took up Frostmourne, which is approximately an Intelligent Sword of Opposite Alignment (If You Happen To Be Good) with a whopping Ego... point being that it more or less took him over.

He had certainly ceased to be Good by the time he burned the ships. His willingness to throw his men's lives away on a quest for revenge is bordering on Evil. However, I think it's important to bear in mind that it wasn't a smooth transition. Taking up Frostmourne was an externally-imposed discontinuity in his alignment, a move towards Evil that did not come from himself.

You could also argue that he is becoming gradually less Lawful as his desire for revenge consumes him to the point of lying, betraying, and ignoring orders... only to snap back to Lawful when he falls under the Lich King's dominion, again, not of his own volition.

Frosty
2008-01-15, 03:30 PM
Thanks. And fixed.

Zephyros
2008-01-15, 04:29 PM
Paladins in Azeroth do not have to be lawful (both mechanically and fluff-wise) they just have to be good. Heck even those Scarlet Crusader - b@st@rds retained their powers even after they started treating their people like sh1t.

As for the prince. I like to picture him like a Chaotic Good Paladin of the Holy Light. He didn't like to abide by the rules, he often defied orders from his superiors in battle (Uther and Moradin to mention first). The downfall really came when he grasped Frostmourne in battle. Then he started to descend the alignment climax. When he reached the last step he also became a soulless undead vessel and had his soul drugged in the Runeblade.

Rutee
2008-01-15, 05:03 PM
You know, I think he started as Neutral Good. He seems to be both Lawful and Chaotic as a Good person, and gives no elements of a strong, defining personal code, nor an orderred view of the world. He definitely does a two step jump to LN when he starts slaying people at Stratholhme though, and I agree with your analysis from there.

kme
2008-01-15, 05:30 PM
I think that he starts as neutral good, and possibly becomes chaotic good when he learns about the plague. In final missions, when he burns the ships and takes frostmourne he seems chaotic neutral.

Now, the end of human campaign isn't a one day before the start of undead campaign. Arthas became evil in months that he spent on frozen throne (influenced by Lich King trough frostmourne) before he returned to Lordearon(sp?). And I would say that he is neutral evil.

Frosty
2008-01-15, 09:28 PM
You don't think he is already evil by the middle of the final mission? He cared naught for Muradin's death at all.

Anyhow, what do guys think Anakin started out as? In episode one I think he was true neutral.

EvilElitest
2008-01-15, 09:44 PM
By WOTC? Most likely when he slaughtered that city he became at best neutral. It went down hill from their. WOW follows different alignment rules i believe.
from
EE

Pronounceable
2008-01-15, 09:48 PM
Arthas was Obnoxious ******* to start. Plague and such made him Obsessive Retarded, then his desire for revenge pushed him into Retarded Bastard. Frostmourne converted him to Kerrigan Wannabe. He was like that until ascending to Frozen Throne.

Total mental annihilation (which is what happened I hope) by Lich King is an improvement for him. I have no love for this worthless sob.

The transition in DnD terms would be LG (of the worst sort) to LN to CN to CE.

Zephyros
2008-01-16, 02:11 AM
[...]Total mental annihilation (which is what happened I hope) by Lich King is an improvement for him. I have no love for this worthless sob.[..]


Your hate is so intense I can smell it dude :smalleek: Anyway Arthas was not consumed the Lich King is Ner'Zull AND Arthas. They merged.

Anyway I believe it's natural for a child that was raised to be a king ( too many responsibilities) to be a bit of a brat. Moreover, since that child viewed his land torn apart, during the Second and Third Great War, consuming his beloved mother among others, (that child) was expected too have some serious psychological issues :smallwink:.

ps: I don't like him for other reasons... A mere short-lived human able to fatally wound a Highborne Night Elf and almost Eternal creature as Illidan? Blasphemy! :smallannoyed:

Tyrmatt
2008-01-16, 09:07 AM
In my opinion, Arthas' first truly evil act was to slay poor Muradin when he took up Frostmourne,which he then instantly (in level terms, actual months did pass before he returned to the continent) compounded by hunting down his former mentor and father figure, Uther and killing him with great pleasure. At that point I would place him in the Lawful Evil point as he still follows an authority (and then later becomes one). Yes, murdering Stratholme was a despicable act but he was desperately trying to save both his living comrades a tougher battle and save the citizens the agony of undeath. He allowed his desperation to cloud his judgement and it did have tactical value. The deaths of a few can save many.

I suggest you folks have a squint at "Tales of the Past III", an hour and a half long machinima of WoW that has a section on the redemption of Arthas Menethil. Plus it's an awesomely done machinima at that.

kamikasei
2008-01-16, 10:00 AM
In my opinion, Arthas' first truly evil act was to slay poor Muradin when he took up Frostmourne,

Arthas killed Muradin? Is that what the lore says? My impression of that scene when I played the game was that Muradin just... died, more or less. I thought he was killed by Frostmourne directly as a "hidden price" sort of thing.

Morty
2008-01-16, 10:16 AM
Muradin dies as soon as Arthas says that he'll suffer any curse to save his people. So Arthas doesn't kill him directly, but he doesn't care one whit about his friend's death either, he just goes forward and claims the Frostmourne.

AslanCross
2008-01-16, 05:47 PM
If I remember correctly, Muradin is impaled by the shards of the Frostmourne's exploding prison (or at least it seemed that way to me). Of course, Arthas didn't care and by then had slipped off the edge into evil.

shadow_archmagi
2008-01-16, 06:51 PM
Personally, I thought killing for good was more a Chaotic Good thing to do, as he still had the greater good in mind at that point. I also got the feeling that Muradin just... died. Definately though, at that point he wasn't Good anymore. I'd say he went from Lawful Good-Chaotic Good-Chaotic Evil (throwing away everything for revenge)-Lawful Evil.

Frosty
2008-01-17, 02:02 AM
Maybe it was good...but I wasn't so sure. He had already turned bitter and somewhat revenge driven at that point. I felt he was already neutral or on the verge of it.

The_Werebear
2008-01-17, 03:47 PM
I'll do a Mission by Mission with my views

1- Defense of Stranhbrad
-Running around saving orphans, chasing off bandits, and defending a city against slaver orcs. He is determined, kindly and straightforward. Confident in his own abilities, but holds to a code. LG or NG

2-Blackrock and Roll
-Kills the orcs who were attempting to summon a demon, but only after loosing the peasants he tried to save. Upset here, but still LG

3- Ravages of the Plague
-Seeing first hand the hordes of undead attacking. Realizes what is happening with the grain. Getting really upset, but still LG

4- Cult of the Damned
- Learns the extent of the threat, learns all the grain has been corrupted. Getting desperate

5- March of the Scourge
- Gets to the town too late to stop some of the grain. Tries desperately to defend the town. He is upset over failures to stop the grain and the threat, even if it wasn't possible. He is still LG paladin like, but on the edge. He is close to a mental break from all the stress, so latches on to his code. Defend his People by any means. This leads to the problems of...

6- The Culling.
- He gets to Stratholme too late to stop the grain once again. Everyone has eaten the grain. They are all doomed. Here, the LG and the LE views split. Uther says wait, try and find a cure. Arthas says kill them for the good of the kingdom. That's very LE. Letter of the code with different intent. And he does it. He kills hundreds of peasants in cold blood.

7- The Shores of Northrend
- Now he is chasing Mal'ganis. Again, this is LE. He is doing what he wants and risking his men's life to ostensibly to protect the kingdom. Really, all he is doing is chasing a vendetta. Sure, he rescues Muradin and his men, but the are a resource he can use, and nothing prevents LE people from having friends.

8- Dissension
- When told to go home, he reacts in the epitome of Lawful Evil. Rather than directly countermand, he removes their ability to do anything but follow him. He hires untraceable mercenaries, destroys his own ships, and then blames the mercenaries, betraying them in a calculated move to make himself look good.

9- Frostmourne
- He watches one of his best friends die without a blink. He throws his men into a Scourge base with reckless abandon. He sells his soul to beat his foe, and then takes his place. He was LE from mission six, but this is the point where he starts taking Blackguard levels.

So, he starts as LG, takes a jump to LE, then gets even worse.

SurlySeraph
2008-01-17, 09:27 PM
I agree with the OP, except for one thing: I'm not sure Arthas is evil when he takes up Frostmourne. His desire to protect his people and his desire for vengeance against Malganis consume everything else. You could see that as a variety of alignments: LN or LE (Arthas wants to finish what he set out to do, no matter who has to die), CN (the only rule/ law he believes in his that he must kill Malganis; he's chaotic and uncaring about everything else), or even CG (fighting evil in his own way, no matter what everyone else thinks). However, killing Malganis was definitely Arthas's last Good act.

When Arthas kills his father, he's either LE or NE. The NE argument would be that Arthas is doing it to take power for himself, regardless of what happens to the kingdom; the LE argument would be that Arthas is doing it because Frostmourne told him to. Either way, he ends up non-chaotic evil.

@ Zephyros: A mere short-lived human. A mere short-lived human who had just received all the power that Ner'zhul the undead ancient evil orc shaman who single-handedly destroyed Draenor could muster without killing himself. A mere short-lived human who had years of combat experience against the most dangerous enemies on Azeroth. A mere short-lived human who had the most powerful weapon in the world, bar none.

And, let's not forget, a mere short-lived human who may well have still been drawing some demon-smiting power from the Holy Light. You know how in WoW Blood Elf Paladins take holy power by force? I think Arthas does that.

Zephyros
2008-01-17, 10:17 PM
@Surly Seraph: You are saying exceptional breed of a mortal man was at his early 20s, holding that holysweetbajesus power of Ner'Zhul is logical to beat Illidan unscathed? Let us not forget who Illidan was shall we? A 20 thousand years old -practically eternal- High borne Elven warrior studied in the ways of magic, had consumed Gul'dan's scull, fought all those magnificent kinds of demons at the 1st and 3rd great war... Illidan indeed reigned supreme (sic) until that karmarific scenario-wagon conclusion :smallsigh: As for the weapons of Illidan, they were not some kind of cheap dung rusty blades (wow reference as well :smallwink: ) both were stated as artifacts in Lands of Conflict.

Frosty
2008-01-18, 01:16 AM
They were probably evenly matched. However, Arthas rolled a natural 20 somewhere in there.

Kyeudo
2008-01-18, 01:47 AM
Arthas is a fallen paladin done right, not like Anakin Skywalker, who was an ansty emo kid with a lightsaber (I know he's not a paladin, but he still fell hard for stupid reasons). I think he is currently lawful evil, but I loved the slow transition into it.

BTW, Illidan may be a 20,000 year old High Born elf with oodles of combat experience against demons, but Arthas is one of the best trained human warriors ever, twisted into a near undead creature and armed with Frostmourne, a sword powered by the energies that drive the entire Scourge. The Skull of Gul'dan just made Illidan evenly matched against Arthas, and is probably the reason that Arthas didn't just execute him with a single slash.

As further evidence of this point, look at WoW. Illidan is only a level 70 raid boss. Arthas is a level 80 raid boss.

Yami
2008-01-18, 02:19 AM
Bah Illidan is a pansy who was killed by a whiny little emo boy. If he wanted to be awesome, he shouldn't have been an elf. Actually, I might have been a bit too harsh, Arthas did shape up a bit there at the end.

As for Athas and Alignment, I say a pretty straight LG->LN->LE path. Allow me to explain. He's a pretty stubborn one, all save the people, kill the people to save the people sort. LG. Then he changes fixation. Saving his people no longer becomes his ultimate goal. Vengance does, and and St Cuthbert always says, retribution is lawful, though it is not always good. So LN. Yeah, and then theres the sword. LE.

Seems pretty straightforward without all this bouncing around throughout the whole grid making pits stops at the four cornerstones.

Zephyros
2008-01-18, 03:04 AM
[...]
As further evidence of this point, look at WoW. Illidan is only a level 70 raid boss. Arthas is a level 80 raid boss.

More likely cuz Arthas beaten Illidan in the Frozen Throne (could be the other way around :smallcool: )

kamikasei
2008-01-18, 03:19 AM
6- The Culling.
- He gets to Stratholme too late to stop the grain once again. Everyone has eaten the grain. They are all doomed. Here, the LG and the LE views split. Uther says wait, try and find a cure. Arthas says kill them for the good of the kingdom. That's very LE. Letter of the code with different intent. And he does it. He kills hundreds of peasants in cold blood.

A thought: I don't remember him actually killing any peasants. If I'm remembering the mission right you go up to a building, destroy it, the peasants come out, and then they turn into ghouls. Until they turn you can't touch them. You're only allowed to attack when they've become undead.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that Arthas pretty clearly says he intends to put the entire town to the sword, and doesn't specify anything like "once they've turned undead, but before Mal'ganis can get them, and I suppose I might let any live who don't actually turn". Nonetheless he doesn't actually kill any peasants, so this would be more like an LN advocating an LE course but not quite taking any Evil actions.

The Professor
2008-01-18, 05:10 AM
@ Arthas vs. Illidan

I'm in agreement with Zephyros (the fact that I've seen him on my server means absolutely nothing). Illidan had around three artifacts on him, while Arthas had one, -maybe- two, I'm not sure of his regalia at the time they fought.

I've seen Illidan's D20 stats, he's mostly a Sorcerer. His mistake was not turning invisible, flying around and nuking him. Perhaps that's what did him in?

@ Alignment

I'm fairly certain he stayed lawful the entire time. LG at the beginning, LN at Stratholme and LE about the time he deceived his men and slaughtered the mercs that worked for him.

Rutee
2008-01-18, 05:23 AM
A thought: I don't remember him actually killing any peasants. If I'm remembering the mission right you go up to a building, destroy it, the peasants come out, and then they turn into ghouls. Until they turn you can't touch them. You're only allowed to attack when they've become undead.
Not entirely true. While the story doesn't technically clarify this point, you can attack the peasants before they turn. They're neutral at this point, so right clicking doesn't auto attack, but you can order an attack. Further, it's to the benefit of you the player, as the villagers have like, 60 HP, but 200 as a zombie. They're not threatening either way, but as time is of the essence, small bonuses are still to be valued. Especially if you suck at RTS >.>

Does nobody else think he started as NG? Ah well.

As to Illidan.. he's kind of been out of practice for what, 10,000 years? Also, see Jaina Proudmoore, or Thrall. Age can be impressive in the Warcraft Lore, but it is not the only method to power there. Mercifully, to my tastes; If there's one thing I can't stand about a setting it's a take similar to Vampire: The Masquerade, where age is an auto-win. Keeps the setting less dynamic.

Demented
2008-01-18, 05:57 AM
And by the time they turn into zombies, you've already destroyed their house, so the intent is clear.

The following is not a spoiler, unless you have yet to play Warcraft 3, and if you haven't, you certainly don't deserve any protection of spoilers so many years after the game's release!
Arthas: "You there! For now you're safe, but we're going to burn your house, and then you'll turn into zombies! But don't worry, we won't kill you until after you turn."

Villager: "...Can't we just stay inside, milord? And not become zombies?"

Arthas: "No, I need to wipe the undead filth from this land, posthaste!"

Villager: "Well... um..."

Arthas: "There is no room for negotiation!"

Villager: "Can I have my morning coffee first, milord?"

Arthas: "NO!"

As much as I disliked Arthas, I disliked Illidan more. Though, I wasn't so big on Malfurion either... He's got a beard to rival Moses, and it's made of leaves.
Malfurion: Tyrande, I don't really love you. In fact, I think you're boring and a wretched, cloying harpy. It's why I sink into the emerald dream for millenia at a time, even though there are no women there, because some fool decided not to allow anyone but shapely male druids into the fold.

Tyrande: And yet I find I still prefer you to Illidan!

Thrall, meanwhile, was a snivelling baby.

Cairne: You must attack the humans!

Thrall: But I don't want to attack the humans!

Cairne: But you must!

Thrall: I don't want to!

Cairne: But you must!

Thrall: I don't want to!

Cairne: Jaina will love you anyway.

Thrall: ... Okay fine, we'll attack the humans.

kamikasei
2008-01-18, 06:12 AM
Not entirely true. While the story doesn't technically clarify this point, you can attack the peasants before they turn. They're neutral at this point, so right clicking doesn't auto attack, but you can order an attack. Further, it's to the benefit of you the player, as the villagers have like, 60 HP, but 200 as a zombie. They're not threatening either way, but as time is of the essence, small bonuses are still to be valued. Especially if you suck at RTS >.>

Interesting... I don't remember ever encountering that, mostly because my approach to that level was to send out a large force that could auto-kill the ghouls without my aid, and devote my attention to defending the base. Okay, in actual lore, I guess Arthas was killing the peasants then.

@Demented: You dislike Illidan and Thrall? That's it, we're not friends any more. I want my mix tapes and borrowed t-shirts returned.

Frosty
2008-01-18, 09:42 AM
Cairne: Jaina will love you anyway.

Thrall: ... Okay fine, we'll attack the humans.[/spoiler]

I don' remember Thrall being in love with Jaina.

Adumbration
2008-01-18, 09:52 AM
Illidan may be 20 000 years old, but remember, he spent most of it in jail. With a vengeful bit- I mean Maiev at charge. Who knows how they tortured or deprived him.

Hunter Noventa
2008-01-18, 09:58 AM
I don' remember Thrall being in love with Jaina.

It seems to be a running gag, I know there's a fanart or some such onthe WoW site that jokes about it for one.

kamikasei
2008-01-18, 10:15 AM
Illidan may be 20 000 years old, but remember, he spent most of it in jail. With a vengeful bit- I mean Maiev at charge. Who knows how they tortured or deprived him.

Ugh, Maiev. I wouldn't have thought it possible for them to make a Night Elf female who made Tyrande seem fair and personable.

Fighteer
2008-01-18, 10:28 AM
My opinion on Arthas vs. Illidan: Cold and calculating beats insane and impulsive nine times out of ten in the long run. Once Arthas took Frostmourne, he turned into something much nastier and less conflicted than he was before.

Illidan may have "reasons" for everything he does, but in the end he's nucking futs.

One of my favorite things about the World of Warcraft universe is that there are very few absolute moral situations. There are shades of grey to almost everything. This is one reason why it's so hard to pin a D&D alignment on the major characters.

EvilElitest
2008-01-19, 02:36 PM
A thought: I don't remember him actually killing any peasants. If I'm remembering the mission right you go up to a building, destroy it, the peasants come out, and then they turn into ghouls. Until they turn you can't touch them. You're only allowed to attack when they've become undead.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that Arthas pretty clearly says he intends to put the entire town to the sword, and doesn't specify anything like "once they've turned undead, but before Mal'ganis can get them, and I suppose I might let any live who don't actually turn". Nonetheless he doesn't actually kill any peasants, so this would be more like an LN advocating an LE course but not quite taking any Evil actions.

No, you destroy the house and the commoners come out, then you try to kill as many as possible before they become ghouls. You seem to have taken the hard way
from
EE

RedShift zX
2008-01-24, 02:12 AM
While i havent read there d20 stats for the WoW setting, I have read the back-story and played through WC3:TFT.. It seems to me that there actually evenly matched (also said so in the WC lore), just Illidan has major psyke issues and slipped up.. Lets compare..

Arthas: Well "bred" character who's probably the best trained human warrior ever in the WC setting, most powerful paladin besides uther(evil after events), and takes up the most powerful-and cool looking- sword on the planet..Probably in his mid-20's?

Illidan: 20,000 year old High-born mage, and one of the best night Elven warriors ever if im not mistaken..Fought in two wars against the Legion. And possesing 3 artifacts (his blades & the SKull of Gul'Dan methinks).. and half of his life-time was spent in a cage...Probably why he's soo damn buff compared to the other Night elves...Millions of Push ups, crunches, and pull-ups anyone? Ten thousand years is allot of time.

Pretty equal i think, Arthas just happened to come out on top...and honestly if he hadn't then where would the WC story had to go? Anyways, after beating Illidan & fusing himself with The Lich King he odviously surpassed Illidan. So that explains the level 70-80 thing.

Rutee
2008-01-24, 02:18 AM
Illidan may be 20 000 years old, but remember, he spent most of it in jail. With a vengeful bit- I mean Maiev at charge. Who knows how they tortured or deprived him.

<Illidan> I'd like um.. you know, I like that soup there, the Arcane one? And can I get that with a side of Fel Meat?
<Watchers> NO MAGIC FOR YOU! Come back again, 1 year! NEXT
* Repeat several thousand times.