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Lizardfolk Lich
2008-01-15, 08:36 PM
Why would anyone make one? They seem rather weak, and the strongest ones can really be expensive in the exp area. I'm not really seeing their usefulness. Can anyone explain how good they are? Also, are shield guardians really worth it?

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 08:39 PM
Well, NPCs get as much XP and gold as you want them to have, so they can create Golems to their heart's content. PCs creating golems just seems like one of those things you can do, but it's just not very useful - like using profession skills.

Squidmaster
2008-01-15, 08:46 PM
Yeah, it is mostly for bad guys. But the players will feel left out if there are no instuctions, even if they would never make one in the first place.

Voyager_I
2008-01-15, 08:51 PM
Immunity to Magic and significant DR can make Golems into "Our weapons are useless!" style encounters, wherein you struggle desperately to hurt it before you end up looking like your kindergartener's fingerpainting.

graymachine
2008-01-15, 08:56 PM
As Voyager said, the immunity to magic can be a massive edge in a number of situations. Also, having a moderately powerful creature that never tires, or has any of the various weaknesses that living beings have, can be rather nice if you keep in mind that it is utterly loyal to you and places your well being above everything else.

Tavenknaughtlin
2008-01-15, 09:03 PM
I always felt thet Golems were either an NPC or an Epic leveled Wizard "Might-As-Well" kind of thing. Kinda like getting that Holy Avenger as a Paladin. It's not required, but it's something else your class can do.

I've always wanted to make a hollow Iron Golem with my Gnome Wizard and ride around inside it, shooting fireballs and lightning bolts from my magical mech. Sadly we never play past level 10 :smallannoyed: .

Parvum
2008-01-15, 09:10 PM
A DM I've been under had a player once who seemed to magnetically attract death. The character made a beholder-like construct (with wands in place of all those eyestalks) and his inside, restoring the original meaning of 'tank'.

"Every time I come out, I get hurt." PEW! PEW! PEW!

A little creativity can make the investment worthwhile.

D Knight
2008-01-15, 09:39 PM
hey Parvum do you know how he made it. cause i can not seem to figure it out. And it would be loads of fun to have for any spell caster. i have never come across a golem befor but heard storys of TPK because of it.

TPK=total party kill. for peopel who do not know this already.

Mojo_Rat
2008-01-15, 09:47 PM
One other thing to remember is that If one is looking for heavy hitters for ones legions of death Golems really dont have any of the problems of undead unless you go with the really funky ones.

You can have as many golems as your finances allow for really.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-01-15, 09:47 PM
Actually, worker golems give me an idea. Anyone have any stats for one? I also want to see those stats for the mechanical beholder.

thorgrim29
2008-01-15, 10:06 PM
Well..... I want golems for my artificer, combined with the evil cleric's legion of undead, we'LL have a permanent and relatively efficient work force and a kick-ass army of DOOM.

marjan
2008-01-15, 10:32 PM
Actually, worker golems give me an idea. Anyone have any stats for one? I also want to see those stats for the mechanical beholder.

Try homunculus. They can be found in ECS and MoE I think.

BRC
2008-01-15, 11:09 PM
By buying A golem Manuel you can build one without knowning any of the prerequisite spells or paying the EXP Cost. You just need to make the craft check for the body.

Idea Man
2008-01-15, 11:13 PM
Golems (standard core)

Advantages: immune to most spells that allow spell resistance, immune to fear/charm/poison DR/adamantine (rare material for enemies), absolutely obedient, powerful attackers

Disadvantages: impossible to magically boost (with specific exceptions), requires special spells to heal, non-intelligent/not imaginitive/no feats or skills

The large size of golems is a bit double-edged. Bigger helps when beating enemies to pulp, but it's a hinderance when trying to travel, mainly with teleport/fly/phantom steed.

Given that most PCs prefer mobility, golems are dead weight, despite their advantages. Very useful for a defender, and other situational jobs (rooting out orcs, construction, +2 circumstance bonus intimidation tool).

DementedFellow
2008-01-15, 11:29 PM
Just +2?

I would have figured a little more than that. I'd be pretty intimidated by a guy who has one and was threatening me with it.

Collin152
2008-01-15, 11:37 PM
Funny thing about intimidation checks; if you're that scary, they'll just take 0.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-15, 11:45 PM
Just +2?

I would have figured a little more than that. I'd be pretty intimidated by a guy who has one and was threatening me with it.

Intimidate is not about reducing someone to a gibbering pile of flesh - it's about convincing them that their best bet is to do exactly what you tell them to do. Someone who is gibbering hysterically isn't answering coherent questions.

As for why?
Well, a Greater Stone Golem is CR 16 ... and you can make this at 14th level.

RandomFellow
2008-01-16, 12:26 AM
Intimidate is not about reducing someone to a gibbering pile of flesh - it's about convincing them that their best bet is to do exactly what you tell them to do. Someone who is gibbering hysterically isn't answering coherent questions.

As for why?
Well, a Greater Stone Golem is CR 16 ... and you can make this at 14th level.

Cost 105,000 gp + 7,640 XP

You *really* are going to save for like 5 levels to just get a single golem? 0o

Go. Open MM IV or V, look for Steelfeather (or something like that)
30k Gold gets you something far more useful and two are more powerful than your one Golem.

Golems Suck from a power stand point. The only reason to get them is:
A) Flavor
B) You are so powerful you have nothing better to do than build an army of Stone Golems and crush all resistance.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 01:15 AM
Go. Open MM IV or V, look for Steelfeather (or something like that)
30k Gold gets you something far more useful and two are more powerful than your one Golem.

Do you mean shadowsteel golems? Tippy's shock troopers of choice!

Fizban
2008-01-16, 01:59 AM
I would just like to point out the irony that a wizard can't actually make a shield guardian: it requires several divine spells.

Anyway, constructs that I like (at least on paper, as I don't really get to play) include the Slaughterstone Evicerator (aka: cuisinart), Nimblewright (stabs you and pulls you over, also smarter than the fighter), Mud Golem (drowns people), and Drakestone Golem. The first three seem ridiculously cheap for what they can do, and the third is pretty much the best straight brusier, aside from the Ironwyrm Golem. The Evicerator has 4 high damage attacks with large crit rating and SR, the Nimblewright has the aforementioned tripping and intellegence, along with disguising SLA's, and the Mud Golem has the aforementioned drowning. I prefer stone golems since you can heal them to full with a single casting of mud to rock, which is good if you're not an artificer.

Talic
2008-01-16, 02:04 AM
For Artificer:

Homomcolous <sp>, specifically the worker variety are awesome. Craft 2. Craft a Portable hole. Stock it with enchanting supplies. Insert your created critters.

Portable workshop. Drop supplies, imbue with crafting ability, and never worry about crafting again.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-16, 02:49 PM
Do you mean shadowsteel golems? Tippy's shock troopers of choice!

Hehe.

Yeah. Every person who can afford one should pick up one. The only golem that is medium sized and has flight (in addition to a bunch of other nice powers).

Iron Golems are good as well if you go about it right. If you use an Iron Golem manual you can actually make a profit selling them.

Keld Denar
2008-01-16, 03:13 PM
Shadowsteel Golems, those are the ones with the 12d6 neg energy pulse every 1d4+1 rounds, right? I almost TPKed a level 16 party with one of those + a level 16 Quell Archivist and 3 Evolved Greater Shadows. Every time the party got some good damage one the Quell and the Shadows, the golem would pulse and heal all the baddies. Then it would move into the darkness, make an obscene hide check, and then find a good position while its pulse was on cooldown. Its a worthwhile investment for any tomb-tainted necromancer type who loves undead minions, but hates to have to heal them.

Another great golem-for-your-buck is the Cadavar Collector. These things are freakin scary. Their grapple checks are just south of unbeatable, they have a reflex based save vs paralysis that last MINUTES! and have some freaky electricity affinity. Slap a couple of neglible CR shocker lizards on that puppy and you've got an all day killin n' keepin machine. Also, just extract the very impaled and slightly burnt bodies and make an army or retributive energy zombies for world domination!

Jack_Simth
2008-01-16, 04:25 PM
Cost 105,000 gp + 7,640 XP

You *really* are going to save for like 5 levels to just get a single golem? 0o

Go. Open MM IV or V, look for Steelfeather (or something like that)
30k Gold gets you something far more useful and two are more powerful than your one Golem.

Why yes - the further you branch out of core, the more broken stuff you find. Still doesn't change the little issue that you can build something that is theoretically more challenging than you are. Besides - Core is accepted in virtually every D&D game. MM IV and V are a bit less commonly permitted. The Greater Stone Golem is quite Core, and as such, is (at least offically) accepted almost everywhere 3.5 D&D is played.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-16, 04:32 PM
Why yes - the further you branch out of core, the more broken stuff you find. Still doesn't change the little issue that you can build something that is theoretically more challenging than you are. Besides - Core is accepted in virtually every D&D game. MM IV and V are a bit less commonly permitted. The Greater Stone Golem is quite Core, and as such, is (at least offically) accepted almost everywhere 3.5 D&D is played.

Yep.

And remember to use the Greater Stone Golem Manual. It costs 44,000 GP to buy 1 and 5,000 GP for the body. So 49,000 GP per Greater Stone Golem. For the cost of buying 1 completed Greater Stone Golem you can get 4 if you use manuals and it doesn't even cost you any XP.

To bad they don't have any Shadesteel Golem manuals.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-16, 04:41 PM
I would just like to point out the irony that a wizard can't actually make a shield guardian: it requires several divine spells.

He can, he just needs to hire/convice a divine spellcaster to cast the spells on the golem for him. This is why you have entries such as 'caster must be at least 5th level' for the lesser golems from Dragon Magazine when it's impossible to learn 'craft construct' before 6th.

Fizban
2008-01-16, 04:47 PM
True, but what self-respecting archmage is going to ask for help? That would be admitting that they can't do everything all at once (not that one would actually need the guardian).

Also, as I remember, the golem manual only provides spells and xp. You still need to pay for the unspecified "extended magical ritual" stuff that makes up the rest of the cost of the golem.

BRC
2008-01-16, 05:06 PM
True, but what self-respecting archmage is going to ask for help? That would be admitting that they can't do everything all at once (not that one would actually need the guardian).

Also, as I remember, the golem manual only provides spells and xp. You still need to pay for the unspecified "extended magical ritual" stuff that makes up the rest of the cost of the golem.
Nope, you just need to make the body, which is not that tough. Lets take a stone golem, It's a DC 17 craft Stonemasonery check, which you can proably hire somebody to do if your DM rules that Shape Stone won't do it for you or provide a hefty bonus.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-16, 07:24 PM
Yep.

And remember to use the Greater Stone Golem Manual. It costs 44,000 GP to buy 1 and 5,000 GP for the body. So 49,000 GP per Greater Stone Golem. For the cost of buying 1 completed Greater Stone Golem you can get 4 if you use manuals and it doesn't even cost you any XP.

That is debatable; if you read the main entry for the Golem Manuals....


Golem Manual: A golem manual contains information, incantations and magical power that help a character to craft a golem. The instructions therein grant a +5 competence bonus on skill checks made to craft the golem’s body. Each manual also holds the prerequisite spells needed for a specific golem, effectively grants the builder use of the Craft Construct feat during the construction of the golem, and grants the character an increase to her caster level for the purpose of crafting a golem. Any golem built using a golem manual does not cost the creator any XP, since the requisite XP are “contained” in the book and “expended” by the book during the creation process.

The spells included in a golem manual require a spell trigger activation and can be activated only to assist in the construction of a golem. The cost of the book does not include the cost of constructing the golem’s body. Once the golem is finished, the writing in the manual fades and the book is consumed in flames. When the book’s ashes are sprinkled upon the golem, it becomes fully animated.(emphasis and emphasis added)
... you get a listing of what the manual does (underlined items). The manual gives +5 competence on skill checks to craft the body, the prerequisite spells, the use of Craft Construct, increased caster level, and the needed XP. The "magical supplies" are not on that list, and it never says it provides everything except the body.

On the flip side, as it specifically mentions one item it doesn't provide (the body, bolded section) a lot of people simply assume it provides everything except that aspect. If you use the Magic Item Creation guidelines to remove the XP provided for the golems from the costs of the books, you end up with basically the costs of the spells.

Or, to put it another way, there are grounds to say that the trick you list works, and there are grounds to say that the trick you list doesn't work. I'm personally on the side of "doesn't work" on that trick.

RandomFellow
2008-01-16, 09:43 PM
Why yes - the further you branch out of core, the more broken stuff you find. Still doesn't change the little issue that you can build something that is theoretically more challenging than you are. Besides - Core is accepted in virtually every D&D game. MM IV and V are a bit less commonly permitted. The Greater Stone Golem is quite Core, and as such, is (at least offically) accepted almost everywhere 3.5 D&D is played.

Broken? 30k for a flying creature of lower CR which can drop any golem since the golem can't fight back vs. ranged air monster. It was simply the first one I thought of, not the only one that can do it. 0o

That is like saying being able to use the Fly spell is broken. 0o Next your going to say Levitate is broken because it allows you to take down an opponent without ranged weapons.

Comeon now.

---------
It is Steelwing btw. MMV.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 10:05 PM
Why yes - the further you branch out of core, the more broken stuff you find.
Oh look, it's polymorph! Nope don't have to go far at all, huh? :smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2008-01-16, 10:39 PM
Broken? 30k for a flying creature of lower CR which can drop any golem since the golem can't fight back vs. ranged air monster. It was simply the first one I thought of, not the only one that can do it. 0o

That is like saying being able to use the Fly spell is broken. 0o Next your going to say Levitate is broken because it allows you to take down an opponent without ranged weapons.

Comeon now.

---------
It is Steelwing btw. MMV.
Let's see... you list that two of them can take it down, but not only don't know when you mention it what it's name is, but you don't know what source it's in, either. Nor do you particularly mention what it actually does. The only meaningful data you gave on the thing that you made difficult to look up (of note is that there were a few people who thought you were talking about a completely different critter) is that two of them are "more powerful" than a Greater Stone Golem, and that they cost considerably less. With no other data to go on, the implication is that they're critters of comparable CR for vastly less. If they're just critters with abilities that make them well suited for taking down a Greater Stone Golem (such as, say, a CR 2 Lantern Archon in an arena that's got more than a 40 foot radius, or a high enough cieling) then they're probably not broken - but they're also not actually more powerful, just more flexible.

Oh look, it's polymorph! Nope don't have to go far at all, huh? :smallwink:
It occurred to me after I posted that "more broken stuff" can be parsed in multiple ways - (more broken) stuff and more (broken stuff). I mostly meant the latter. Likewise, I did not say that there was no broken stuff in core. But compare to, say, the Incantatrix PrC, Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell), Celerity, Greater Consumptive Field, Warforged, the Sarruk's Manipulate Form ability, and others.

RandomFellow
2008-01-16, 11:09 PM
Let's see... you list that two of them can take it down, but not only don't know when you mention it what it's name is, but you don't know what source it's in, either. Nor do you particularly mention what it actually does. ...
Those people listed critters that aren't even MMV or MMIV. The only one that started with 'Steel' in either book was the one I was talking about.

I'm sorry if the fact I said Steelfeather instead of Steelwing was too complicated for a person to look at the books and figure out. 0o

Two of them would win toe to toe (and represent a CR 16 encounter). Most golems are overpriced for their value it is as simple as that.

Heck, a commanded (via Rebuking) ghost would take down a Stone Golem as its natural attacks don't count as magic weapons.

Prometheus
2008-01-16, 11:23 PM
I'd use it to clear out a menace without having to do it myself. Tell it to kill every single undead in place X, and they won't be able to touch it because of its magic immunity and damage reduction.
Of course, adventures aren't designed about taking care of problems that you don't personally witness so it makes sense the NPCs would use them but players don't.

Second, Golems live forever. Especially if you are a human, you know that you won't live forever, but if you can make a golem, you can forever benefit mankind. Similarly, they are the perfect companion for a lich or vampire who will outlive any conventional help. Again NPCs.

RandomFellow
2008-01-17, 12:56 AM
I'd use it to clear out a menace without having to do it myself. Tell it to kill every single undead in place X, and they won't be able to touch it because of its magic immunity and damage reduction.
Of course, adventures aren't designed about taking care of problems that you don't personally witness so it makes sense the NPCs would use them but players don't.

Second, Golems live forever. Especially if you are a human, you know that you won't live forever, but if you can make a golem, you can forever benefit mankind. Similarly, they are the perfect companion for a lich or vampire who will outlive any conventional help. Again NPCs.
If that was directed at me...
Price has nothing to do with the DM adventure design decisions. I'm just saying they are overpriced for PC use. =)

Jack_Simth
2008-01-17, 07:07 AM
Those people listed critters that aren't even MMV or MMIV. The only one that started with 'Steel' in either book was the one I was talking about.

I'm sorry if the fact I said Steelfeather instead of Steelwing was too complicated for a person to look at the books and figure out. 0o

Two of them would win toe to toe (and represent a CR 16 encounter). Most golems are overpriced for their value it is as simple as that.

Heck, a commanded (via Rebuking) ghost would take down a Stone Golem as its natural attacks don't count as magic weapons.
So you've got a CR 14 critter that's priced at 30,000 gp - which means a level 9 character with Wealth By Level could theoretically afford one, an 11th level character could theoretically afford two, and a 13th level character could theoretically afford three - which means a purchasable item, in theory, that can beat up the entire rest of the party at the first level you can afford to buy it ... and you're using this as a baseline for what's a good purchase?

And yes, a Ghost could take down a Stone Golem - as, under the right conditions, a CR 2 Lantern Archon or a human barbarian-1 with a bow and a lot of adamantine arrows. The critter has some exploitable weaknesses.

Talic
2008-01-17, 07:23 AM
Oh look, it's polymorph! Nope don't have to go far at all, huh? :smallwink:

Polymorph... Good.

Compare to Foresight/Celerity.

Chronos
2008-01-17, 10:41 PM
Second, Golems live forever. Especially if you are a human, you know that you won't live forever, but if you can make a golem, you can forever benefit mankind.By the same token, even if it's really rare for someone to make one, what few golems get made will stick around for a long time. So maybe it's been a hundred years since anyone bothered making a golem... But that golem the party encountered in the dungeon was a thousand years old.

Yami
2008-01-17, 11:13 PM
Why would anyone make one? They seem rather weak, and the strongest ones can really be expensive in the exp area. I'm not really seeing their usefulness. Can anyone explain how good they are? Also, are shield guardians really worth it?
I don't know about shield guardians, but I can tell you that golems can be quite rewarding. I personally make golems because long ago, back in my adventuring days, I was traumatized by a bunch of elementals. Nearly wiped the whole party.

So now, whenever I'm making a dungoen, or just have the free exp and gold, I like to torment one of those foul elementals by forcing them to serve for an eternity in some secluded hole in the ground, forced to do nothing unless some living fool finds them.

FlyMolo
2008-01-17, 11:27 PM
I would just sit on a golem. Get a bow, or just drop rocks. Seriously, how cool would that be? If the golem is 15 feet high, they have to trip the thing just to get at you. Or, conceivably, climb it.

Besides, who doesn't want to ride around on their very own tall stone guy?

Collin152
2008-01-17, 11:40 PM
I would just sit on a golem. Get a bow, or just drop rocks. Seriously, how cool would that be? If the golem is 15 feet high, they have to trip the thing just to get at you. Or, conceivably, climb it.

Besides, who doesn't want to ride around on their very own tall stone guy?

Hmmm... Is a clay golem soft clay, or are they hard?
Malleable Minions all the way.

hewhosaysfish
2008-01-18, 09:18 AM
Hmmm... Is a clay golem soft clay, or are they hard?
Malleable Minions all the way.

I believe the clay is baked as part of the creation process.