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Woot Spitum
2008-01-15, 09:50 PM
I'm thinking about getting a new tabletop RPG book/system and I'm having trouble deciding between World of Darkness:Mage, Mutants and Masterminds, and the latest edition of Legend of the Five Rings.

I like the World of Darkness setting, and have had a lot of fun with Werewolf. Mage sounds like a really interesting setting. The downside is that I have heard the magic system is very complex and difficult to master.

Mutants and Masterminds appeals to me because I think a superhero RPG would be a lot of fun to run. It would be a departuree from a lot of the settings I've usually been in as well. What I worry about is that I've heard character creation is difficult and time-consuming, which would make it harder for me to find players.

Legend of the Five Rings is the one I have been considering the longest. I love the detailed fluff the setting has, and I think it would be the easiest one to get players for. My biggest problem is that I'm not entirely sure that I understand the system from my brief skim through the book. I also was disappointed that ninjas do not seem to play a big role in the game.

I'd like to know more about these settings and their systems. Few things are as disappointing as starting to play a new system and finding that it isn't your cup of tea. So I want to ask around a bit before I decide.

So which of these would you reccomend and why? If you love one or more of these systems, why? What do you like/dislike about theses systems?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-16, 12:40 AM
I can't really speak for Mage (played one game) or Lo5R (zero), but I can say that Mutants & Masterminds is a fun and well-designed system, as well as being very adaptable. Character creation is time consuming, true, because it's an entirely point-based system with a huge number of options, rather than a class/level setup. It pays off in versatility of characters (you can pretty much play any concept imagined by a mostly-sane human), but it's not for everyone.

From what I know of Mage, it's honestly probably about the same amount of work, only with more points (and a better laid-out rulebook).

Tengu
2008-01-16, 01:09 AM
The L5K system is actually very simple, it's just written in a slightly convoluted way - basically it's "throw a bucket of d10, took several of them and compare them to the save DC". Oh, and for ninjas, buy the Way of the Scorpion.

Animefunkmaster
2008-01-16, 01:14 AM
Avoid Blood Speakers for L5R rpg, its a horrible book. Are you playing the d20 Rokugan?

mabriss lethe
2008-01-16, 01:15 AM
I also was disappointed that ninjas do not seem to play a big role in the game.


That's because ninjas "don't exist". They're just a juvenile peasant superstition. At least from the POV of someone from the samurai caste. That being said, there are some excellent materials availible dating all the way back to 1st ed L5R concerning ninjas

The scorpion clan is, for lack of a better term, "ninja" Look at the Bayushi Saboteur school, The Supai advanced school, Shosuro actors...Several others just in the scorpion clan alone. Aside from scorpions, assassins like the Weavers can be found in Way of the Wolf. The Goju ninja (humans who've lost themselves to the Lying Darkness) have undergone several iterations throughout the setting history. There's also a d20/d10 hybrid rulebook simple called Way of the Ninja.

Talic
2008-01-16, 01:58 AM
L5R is a pretty good system. Very lethal. VERY lethal.

For optimum results, cross class a Asako Courtier with an Isawa Shugenja. Courtier will allow you to get disgusting knowledge skills, which in turn boost your level, and give you the ability to cast higher level spells. Isawa Shugenja ability lets you use your void points to cast your spells, allowing you to cast spells that you normally wouldn't, due to lower stats.

With enough experience for a second level character, this character can reliably instant cast the highest level spells in the game twice.

In D&D, that's comparable to getting a quickened ninth level spell twice per day, at 4th level.

Examples of spells that fit this description:

Everything melts. Within 10' of you, anyone standing takes a buttload of fire damage, any non-magical weapon melts to nothing before it hits you. Magic weapons get one good swing on you, and then they too, melt to nothing. (no saves, skills, or checks prevent this).

80 foot monster. Pick an element. Make an 80 foot tall elemental. If fire, then it catches things on fire, and heals by walking into the fires it creates. Others have similar nifty abilities.

EDIT: Practitioners of Maho are strong, also, just get a high spellcraft lore (asako courtier will help with this) to mitigate your taint. Maho is strongest when you're focusing on the Earth and Water schools of magic.

Sebastian
2008-01-16, 03:39 AM
M&M is a good system, with some change it can work for other setting than super heroic (even if it still work better for high powered, not-exactly realistic settings). Creating characters is slower? well, maybe, but I'd say that is more a necessity to have a clear concept of your character and a good knowledge of the rules to translate it in numbers, if you have those it is not so slow, Sure is worse than pick a race-pick a class-pick a (or two) feat, but it is still faster than creating a D&D character of a comparable level (usually around 10)

Attilargh
2008-01-16, 06:09 AM
I got it about a month ago and from what I've read, it's a great game. The dice system is simple to grasp, the setting oozes awesomesauce and it's about samurai. However, calculating the averages of the system is not very easy, and there are no rules for horses in the book.

Pauwel
2008-01-16, 10:40 AM
Mutants and Masterminds!

Well, I've never tried L5R and don't like World of Darkness, so I guess I'm biased. Still, M&M is an awesome game; it's amazingly flexible, cinematic, fun and actually fairly balanced system, as long as the players don't deliberately try to break the game and/or the GM is extremely lenient.

Character generation can take a while for those who are unfamiliar with the rules; you also have to read the rules rather closely to avoid interpreting them incorrectly (though that doesn't really matter, as long as the game works for you). Once you do "get" the system, it all feels really natural; I can create a character in 20 minutes, often without even referencing any rulebooks.

Anyway, it's a fantastic system and I command you to buy it now!

Tengu
2008-01-16, 10:59 AM
there are no rules for horses in the book.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the Way of the Unicorn.

Woot Spitum
2008-01-16, 11:42 AM
So Legend of the Five Rings is simple, with very lethal combat? That might be a nice departure from D&D. How are the melee classes when it comes to combat skills? I'd like it if they have some combat techniques and fighting styles. My biggest complaint about the monk in D&D is that the designers took a character concept that had the potential to use dozens of techniques and fighting styles, and boiled it down to "you hit stuff. a lot." I wouldn't mind if it isn't Tome of Battle-esque and the techniques aren't that powerful, but I think it would be neat flavour.

Mutants and Masterminds sounds cool, but what is the combat system like? D20 based? D10 based? How are powers used? How is the game out of combat?

I'm still waiting for some comments on Mage. Even if they're unfavorable, I'd like to hear what someone else who has played it thinks about the system.

Attilargh
2008-01-16, 12:28 PM
So Legend of the Five Rings is simple, with very lethal combat? That might be a nice departure from D&D. How are the melee classes when it comes to combat skills? I'd like it if they have some combat techniques and fighting styles.
Combat is skill-based, so even a courtier can be pretty dangerous with a sword if he decides to put his points into Kenjutsu.

However, the bushi (warrior) schools have special Techniques for each level that provide unique benefits in combat. For example, the Mirumoto family of the Dragon clan teaches their students to fight with two swords without penalty. Then there's a bunch of Katas, or special maneuvers that are open to everyone who meets the prequisites. One increases a warrior's reaction speed in battle at the cost of accuracy and hitting power, for example.

Tengu
2008-01-16, 12:41 PM
Oh, and of course we are talking about the original d10 game here, not the d20 "DND in Rokugan" monstrosity.

Woot Spitum
2008-01-16, 01:11 PM
Combat is skill-based, so even a courtier can be pretty dangerous with a sword if he decides to put his points into Kenjutsu.

However, the bushi (warrior) schools have special Techniques for each level that provide unique benefits in combat. For example, the Mirumoto family of the Dragon clan teaches their students to fight with two swords without penalty. Then there's a bunch of Katas, or special maneuvers that are open to everyone who meets the prequisites. One increases a warrior's reaction speed in battle at the cost of accuracy and hitting power, for example. I like the sound of that. How is the magic system? I'd particularly like to know how it balances with melee combat, power-wise.


Oh, and of course we are talking about the original d10 game here, not the d20 "DND in Rokugan" monstrosity.
This is the version I'm considering:

http://www.amazon.com/Roleplaying-Game-Legend-Five-Rings/dp/1594720355/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200507041&sr=8-1

CthulhuM
2008-01-16, 01:31 PM
I can't speak for M&M or Lo5R, but the new addition of mage is a very fun system. The magic system is much easier to learn and better defined than it was in old WoD, which basically required you to improvise all of your spells. The new system provides a wide variety of premade spells to use, so its much easier to get a handle on what your character can and can't do. It's still very flexible, though, and if you need to the option to create your own spells on the spot is still available.

Attilargh
2008-01-16, 01:50 PM
Missed Tengu's post:

I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the Way of the Unicorn.
Isn't that first edition? I'd like third myself. I bet they're in Creatures of Rokugan or something.

mabriss lethe
2008-01-16, 04:02 PM
I like the sound of that. How is the magic system? I'd particularly like to know how it balances with melee combat, power-wise.

It's gone through several iterations in the various versions. 1st edition spellcasting was gruesomely over the top. In my groups the shugenja always had a higher average melee kill count than the bushi. Spellcasting in 1st ed was stat+school level to determine the level of the spell. First level spellcasters could cast insanely powerful spells at very early levels. Second edition was toned down a little, spell levels became dependant upon school rank instead of stats. It made things a little less wrong, but spellcasting still tended to end a lot of fights. I'm not really familiar with shugenja in 3E, but from the brief glances I gave it, It seems to be somewhat in line with 2E

Multiclassing in the system is incredibly difficult.

1. Your characters, unless you play ronin, come from a highly competitive collection of schools funded by the most powerful men and women in the empire, The rivalries between clans (even, to some extent, schools among the same clan,) are generally pretty intense. A character owes a certain amount of loyalty to his sensei and school, to seek out other instructors is otften seen as an insult to both your current and prospective teachers. ronin have their own problems.

2. Each type of school requires a singular focus from its students. A samurai could, with some difficulty and much social awkwardness, leave his current bushi school and enroll in another. He wouldn't however, be able to enroll in a shugenja school. There are a handful of very specific bushi-like classes that can cross over to a shugenja school(and vice-versa), but each of them are detailed in full in the books. (the only schools of that nature that spring to mind are the Kuni shugenja school and it's sister school the Kuni Witch hunters. Both are maintained by the same family in the same clan, and even then, there are some very strict prerequisites for multiclassing between them. Shugenja, likewise, might be able to seek instruction from another school of magic, but would find learning the subtle skills of a bushi impossible. (that doesn't mean that a shugenja can't pick up a weapon and kick butt with it. they can, they just don't get any fancy tricks with them.)

Tengu
2008-01-16, 04:59 PM
Isn't that first edition? I'd like third myself. I bet they're in Creatures of Rokugan or something.

Ah. I am afraid I am not familiar with the third edition. Do you know what have they changed? I hope they dropped some of the horrible backstory of second edition (naga awakening? The clans going to all-out war? C'mon...).

deathbyhokie
2008-01-16, 05:42 PM
It pays off in versatility of characters (you can pretty much play any concept imagined by a mostly-sane human), but it's not for everyone.

As an example of (not quite sane) character creation, I statted out a Nacho Elemental for a M&M game.

I'll add another vote to M&M. It's a wonderful system, you only need one die, and there's alot of things you can do with it. Plus, it's superheroes.

Woot Spitum
2008-01-16, 08:19 PM
As an example of (not quite sane) character creation, I statted out a Nacho Elemental for a M&M game.

I'll add another vote to M&M. It's a wonderful system, you only need one die, and there's alot of things you can do with it. Plus, it's superheroes.

What die do you use? I'd also like to know some more details on how combat and superpowers work.

Sleet
2008-01-16, 09:09 PM
What die do you use? I'd also like to know some more details on how combat and superpowers work.

M&M is pure d20; damage is passive, and the target has to make a Damage Save or suffer nasty consequences.

(At least, that's how it works in Blue Rose and True 20, which are very similar to M&M.)

deathbyhokie
2008-01-16, 09:29 PM
What die do you use? I'd also like to know some more details on how combat and superpowers work.

Just a D20.

As far as powers go: anything you can think of, is in there. Or if it isn't, it's not hard to find something similiar and extrapolate the point cost of the power you want.

In combat, it's less time consuming than D&D (at least with our group), because there's less "Which Die sdo I use". IFthe attacker hits, the defender makes a Toughness save (based off of Constitution and various protection powers).

With powers, for the most part, you point and use. If a save is called for, the difficulty is usually 10 + your power rank. Like I said, they have most any power you can think of. Some of the powers are incredibly specific (Gravity Control) and some are very broad, and you add your own descriptors (Blast)

This also helps to simplify the character creation:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mnm_hall_of_heroes/ (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mnm_hall_of_heroes/)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-16, 09:42 PM
All dice rolls are d20 (except a few d% effects that can be easily done with a d20). Effects with Fort/Ref/Will saving throws are done the same way as in D&D (the target makes a saving throw of d20+their bonus against a static DC). Damaging effects like punching or shooting an energy blast actually work the exact same way: the target (if hit) makes a "Toughness Save" against the Damage DC of the power or weapon that hit him, and if he fails, he gains a Bruise/Injury (depending on whether the damage is lethal or nonlethal), which imposes a cumulative -1 penalty on future Toughness saves until healed. If the target fails by 5 or more, they're Staggered/Disabled, and 10 or more, they're Unconscious/Dying. It's a bizarre hybrid of d20 and White Wolf's Damage Levels, but it seems to work, and makes marginally more sense than HP.

Combat, aside from all that, is pretty similar to D&D. You make an Attack Roll against your oppenent's Defense; or not, if it's something like Mind Control that doesn't require an attack roll. Then effects are resolved via saving throw like I described above. There's a lack of D&D's emphasis on tactical grid-based combat (partly because superheroes tend to move very fast and in three dimensions), but it's still there if you want it. There's also no Full Attacks or Attacks of Opportunity, but there's a lot of other combat options to spice things up and make them more cinematic, like taunting, parrying, and the plethora of things you can do with Powers.

Powers...there's a lot of information on Powers. Pretty much anything ever described in a comic book can be modeled easily, and then some. Or, you can just as easily make a character with no powers that uses spiffy martial arts and fancy equipment to compete with the Capes, ala Batman. Because every attribute of character creation draws from the same pool of points, and excellent balance-testing was done by the publishers, you can make almost any concept you can think of as a competitive character. Character design requires a bit more consideration and priority-balancing since there's no class/level system, but plenty of advice and examples are provided to make sure newbies don't do something stupid in building a character, like forget to account for their Defense or Toughness.

mabriss lethe
2008-01-16, 10:38 PM
I hope they dropped some of the horrible backstory of second edition (naga awakening? The clans going to all-out war? C'mon...).

I hope you're being sarcastic. really.

One of the more fascinating aspects of L5R is that the players have a direct hand in the storyline by attending sanctioned CCG and RPG events. The recent game history is so screwy because of all the player interaction with the world. It's been that way since the beginning. You only have your fellow gamers to blame for it.

As for a real life model to gauge how silly something like the clans of rokugan going into all out war, I recommend studying the Three Kindgoms era of Chinese history as well as the Warring States period of feudal Japan.

Tengu
2008-01-16, 10:49 PM
I didn't mean that it's implausible, I meant that it's blander. Intrigues, backstabbing and various amounts of rivalry between the clans are much more interesting than armies marching here and there.

Talic
2008-01-17, 12:42 AM
Combat is skill-based, so even a courtier can be pretty dangerous with a sword if he decides to put his points into Kenjutsu.

However, the bushi (warrior) schools have special Techniques for each level that provide unique benefits in combat. For example, the Mirumoto family of the Dragon clan teaches their students to fight with two swords without penalty. Then there's a bunch of Katas, or special maneuvers that are open to everyone who meets the prequisites. One increases a warrior's reaction speed in battle at the cost of accuracy and hitting power, for example.

Oddly enough, the strongest base melee class is the Toku Bushi, a minor clan that gets imperial status. They get various Earth righ related bonuses to defense and can be really hard to hit. The average character has something like 40 hp, and takes progressive penalties as you get more injured. The average attack will roll something like 3d10 for damage, discard 1d10 of your choosing. All 10's explode, for an additional roll, added to the original die also. Most fights are over in 2 solid hits.

For a more stealth themed character, the Scorpion Ninjas can eventually move at full speed while hiding with no penalty, are always treated as in full defense (even at the start of combat, before the first action), and get some positively nasty attack options.

Different weapons do different damage, and strength really matters. For instance, if you have a strength of 3 (roll 3 for damage), and are using a katana (roll 3d10 for damage, keep 2), you roll 6d10 and keep 2. If you're using a tetsubo (think a studded club) (roll 0 keep 3), and have a strength of 4 (roll 4, +50% for wielding a tetsubo), you roll 6d10 and keep 3d10. There are ways to modify this, though.

There's a raise system, where before you roll to hit, you can make any number of raises, each increasing your target number to roll by 5. 1 raise gets you an extra rolled damage die, 2 raises is an extra kept damage die. 4 raises is an extra attack. There's more, and they're all outlined together on one table. You roll to hit with the modified number, and if you hit, you get your extra effect.

Note: High level scorpion samurai can choose how many raises to take AFTER they roll to hit, always ensuring that they get the most out of their rolls.

Woot Spitum
2008-01-17, 11:56 PM
Oddly enough, the strongest base melee class is the Toku Bushi, a minor clan that gets imperial status. They get various Earth righ related bonuses to defense and can be really hard to hit. The average character has something like 40 hp, and takes progressive penalties as you get more injured. The average attack will roll something like 3d10 for damage, discard 1d10 of your choosing. All 10's explode, for an additional roll, added to the original die also. Most fights are over in 2 solid hits.

For a more stealth themed character, the Scorpion Ninjas can eventually move at full speed while hiding with no penalty, are always treated as in full defense (even at the start of combat, before the first action), and get some positively nasty attack options.

Different weapons do different damage, and strength really matters. For instance, if you have a strength of 3 (roll 3 for damage), and are using a katana (roll 3d10 for damage, keep 2), you roll 6d10 and keep 2. If you're using a tetsubo (think a studded club) (roll 0 keep 3), and have a strength of 4 (roll 4, +50% for wielding a tetsubo), you roll 6d10 and keep 3d10. There are ways to modify this, though.

There's a raise system, where before you roll to hit, you can make any number of raises, each increasing your target number to roll by 5. 1 raise gets you an extra rolled damage die, 2 raises is an extra kept damage die. 4 raises is an extra attack. There's more, and they're all outlined together on one table. You roll to hit with the modified number, and if you hit, you get your extra effect.

Note: High level scorpion samurai can choose how many raises to take AFTER they roll to hit, always ensuring that they get the most out of their rolls. This sounds fairly complicated. How high is the learning curve for the Legend of the Five Rings system?



Powers...there's a lot of information on Powers. Pretty much anything ever described in a comic book can be modeled easily, and then some. Or, you can just as easily make a character with no powers that uses spiffy martial arts and fancy equipment to compete with the Capes, ala Batman. Because every attribute of character creation draws from the same pool of points, and excellent balance-testing was done by the publishers, you can make almost any concept you can think of as a competitive character. Character design requires a bit more consideration and priority-balancing since there's no class/level system, but plenty of advice and examples are provided to make sure newbies don't do something stupid in building a character, like forget to account for their Defense or Toughness.So do powers work like D&D skills, or is there a different method for determining whether or not a particular power works (and how effective it is if it does work) at any given time?

Another question I have is how does character advancement work? Is it more like World of Darkness or D&D, or is it something different?

Attilargh
2008-01-18, 02:45 AM
This sounds fairly complicated. How high is the learning curve for the Legend of the Five Rings system?
Pretty low, really. Tallic just likes to give rather complicated examples. :smalltongue:

Every weapon has a Damage Rating (DR), like katana's 3k2 which stands for "roll 3, keep 2". To this you add your Strength, and you end up with (Str+3)k2. Simple, really. (Bows are a bit more complicated, but still pretty easy once you get the basics.)

I'll edit more stuff in later, I've got to hit class now.

Talic
2008-01-18, 03:04 AM
Pretty low, really. Tallic just likes to give rather complicated examples. :smalltongue:

Every weapon has a Damage Rating (DR), like katana's 3k2 which stands for "roll 3, keep 2". To this you add your Strength, and you end up with (Str+3)k2. Simple, really. (Bows are a bit more complicated, but still pretty easy once you get the basics.)

I'll edit more stuff in later, I've got to hit class now.

Agreed. I enjoyed cracking that game out, and wanted to point out a few of the more abusable classes.

Each class, from Isawa Shugenja to Asako Courtier to Kakita Duelist has their own set of special abilities. That's pretty in keeping with most RPG systems. The basic combat system is really simple and straightforward, as well as lethal.
The game does favor the survivability of high level characters over low level ones by the added special abilities (less so), and the ability to go first more reliably at higher levels (more so).

The biggest thing you have to think about with L5R is the concept of honor. It is very different from alignment. Many leaders are treated as paragons of virtue by being honorable, even though they are pretty darn evil. Different skills are classified as either High (Honorable), Low (Dishonorable), Battle, and Merchant. Being able to swing a Katana, for instance, is neither honorable or dishonorable, as is skill at bartering (though the direct handling of money is usually viewed as distasteful by the Samurai caste. That's what servants are for). Knowing how to throw a killer tea ceremony is certainly honorable. Knowing how to throw a deadly tea ceremony (via poison use) is certainly dishonorable.

Note that Honor is a concrete and objective force in the game. Having a high honor translates into tangible mechanical benefits. Some clans have less honor (Scorpion being the most clear example). Some have more (Phoenix and Crane are two good examples of this).

In other words... The game rewards you for being honorable... It has a pretty good table allowing for most actions to be classified, and it's set up in a fairly easy to use system that ensures for the most part that honor falls in a bell curve (people with 0 honor and 5 honor are rare, whereas people with 3 honor are common).

Kojiro Kakita
2008-01-18, 03:38 AM
Now how strong is the fanbase for l5r RPG.
I play on a free play RPG forum for l5r but I was thinking of trying the book based one. Any place to play a game online.

Talic
2008-01-18, 04:01 AM
As for magic, Think of L5R as a game where the max charaget level is 8.

There are six levels of spells. Level 1 does relatively minor effects, from summoning weapons to dealing and healing minor damage. Level 3 spells are capable of doing some real damage (one in particular creates a lightning storm over a city sized area). Level 6 spells can make you completely undetectable by any means, can turn you into a little ball of sun, or summon a 50 foot monstrousity of pain and suffering.

The key is, sepll levels are tied to 2 things. First is character level. Rule of thumb, you can't cast a spell higher than your character level (+1 if you have an affinity for that perticular element, -1 if you have a deficiency in that element. Almost every shugenja has 1 of each.) Second, is difficulty required to cast. Every spell requires a skill check to cast, and that skill check gets progressively higher as you cast higher level spells. Further, each spell requires 1 round per spell level to cast. This can be shortened with raises on a 1 to 1 ratio, but each raise raises the difficulty of the spell by another 5.
So a level 1 fire spell might require a skill test against your fire ring, with a difficulty of 10, and cast in one round. A level 2 fire spell would require a DC 15 for a two round cast, or a DC 20 for a three round. A level 3 water spell would require a test against your water ring. They design the game so that it's very hard to be a batman. You can be good in 1, maybe 2 schools of magic, unless you're Isawa (their class ability lets them massively boost their casting rolls a limited amount per day)... And even if you're isawa, you've only got a couple castings like that.
Further, magic is limited in places that are tainted. So, if you're fighting the forces of evil, and you're travelling into the Shadowlands to do it, casters begin to get gimped. Casting relies on communicating with elemental spirits (kami) who then do what you ask them to, if you're good enough. In tainted areas, the elemental kami are replaced by minor demon spirits, who usually demand the price of taint for casting. Taint = very bad. A little gets you watched, any more than a little usually gets you hunted down and killed.

To be honest, one of the strongest ways to deal damage at range is archery. Go fig, with how weak it is in D&D, but Mantis archery is insanely good.

Pauwel
2008-01-18, 09:09 AM
So do powers work like D&D skills, or is there a different method for determining whether or not a particular power works (and how effective it is if it does work) at any given time?

Powers are assumed to always "work", although you do have to roll an attack roll to hit someone with an energy blast or so on.

The important thing about powers in M&M is that they are extremely customisable. All base powers have a certain cost per rank. In exchange for increasing (an extra) or decreasing (a flaw) the cost per rank you can add various properties to your power.
Example: You have a Blast power. This can be anything that damages things at range; it could be shooting a bow, throwing balls of fire or anything else you can imagine that does damage at a distance. In this case, you want the power to be an "ignition" power; you snap your fingers and the enemy bursts into flames.
The default Blat power costs 2 points/rank. If you add a +1 extra called Range (listed in the book), you can increase the range from Ranged (any distance attack that requires an attack roll) to Perception (affects anything in sight with no need for an attack roll); now your power always hits, which is much closer to your idea of ignition than having to aim a ball of fire at your target. The power, however costs 3 points/rank rather than 2.
In this way you can alter the Action, Duration, Range of all powers; you can make them affect many people at once (Area extra), have them fail half the time (Unreliable flaw), have a power fatigues you when you use it (Tiring flaw) and so on.
These are normally drawn from a specific list of extras and flaws in the book, but it's fairly easy to make up your own if the list doesn't suffice (which doesn't happen as often as you might think; the list is quite flexible).


Another question I have is how does character advancement work? Is it more like World of Darkness or D&D, or is it something different?

It's much, much simpler than any of them (in my opinion, at least).

During character creation, the GM decides the Power Level and the number of Power Points for each of the characters. Power Level is a cap on the ranks of most powers as well as you attack bonus, your skills and so on (although some of the caps are adjustable; I can explain this if you want me to). In short, the higher your Power Level is, the more powerful you are (hence the name :smalltongue: ).
Power Points are the points with which you buy all of your traits, powers, skills and abilities alike. Normally the number of power points equals Power Level x 15, but it's adjustable if the Gm wants the PCs to be more or less resourceful and flexible than average characters of their Power Level.

Advancement is handled by simply giving out more Power Points at whatever time and rate the GM feels is appropriate, and eventually raise the Power Level as well. It's recommended that Power Level is raised by one for every 15 Power Points you get, but it doesn't make a huge difference either way.

Attilargh
2008-01-19, 09:48 AM
I've totally forgotten what I was planning on adding to my last post, so I'll just reply to Tengu:

Ah. I am afraid I am not familiar with the third edition. Do you know what have they changed? I hope they dropped some of the horrible backstory of second edition (naga awakening? The clans going to all-out war? C'mon...).
Those parts are still a part of the setting history, but the story has advanced about forty years. I'm a bit fuzzy on the latest stuff, but liked what had been added to the core rulebook. I believe the current situation is pretty peaceful, which is just fine by me; I don't have to worry about going against the metaplot too bad, and can add a small border war any time I feel like having one.

I'm not too familiar with the previous editions, but the conversion page (yes, the book has a page for converting old characters) claims the priority between Traits and Skills has been balanced so that they're both somewhat equal. Skills have also been condensed, so that Empathy, for example, is an emphasis on some other diplomatic skill I can't remember at the moment.


Also, a word on Raises: As Talic pointed out, a player can opt to raise the TN (target number) of a roll in steps of five to deal more damage and such. However, as attacking is just another Skill roll, Raises can also be declared on any other Skill roll as well, to achieve something other than the default "well, you succeed". However, if a roll fails because of a Raise (and would've succeeded without), it fails completely.

For example, if an artist wants to paint a landscape, a successful roll only results in a recognizable picture, no matter how well he rolled. To make the painting really come alive and impress people, he'd have to declare Raises. Similarly, an archer will simply strike a target on a successful roll, but might split an arrow already stuck on the bullseye with enough Raises. However, if he misses the arrow, he'll miss the target as well, and might become the butt of a few jokes if it was a public demonstration.


Finally, thanks to the Roll & Keep system, calculating the probabilities and averages might be a bit tricky. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67301) a thread with a couple of little helpers.

geez3r
2008-01-19, 11:01 AM
Also for Mutants and Masterminds, if you still feel that the character creation process is staggering, you can look at this: http://64.17.155.164/2e_files/MM2eCh1.pdf

That is the first chapter from the M&M 2E book, which has 13 fully generated characters for a PL (power level 10) game, with a few rules for character generation as well.

I suggest looking at the character generator mentioned earlier, it makes things easier to understand.

Another selling point of M&M is the trade off system. You have a default maximum Attack, Damage, Defense and Toughness modifier equal to your power level. You can then trade off to better suit your character. You can trade Attack points with Damage points, and Defense points with Toughness points.

So you could be really inaccurate but hit like a ton of bricks, or be insanely accurate, but not do as much damage. You could be really hard to hit, but easy to damage or vice versa. You can take up to a +5/-5 (or -5/+5) at character generation. This merely sets your caps, you still have to fill them.

And a final point is the concept of GM Fiats and Hero Points. Because so much of the game is based on rolling, the above essentially allow you to do a redo. Any time the GM fiats (rerolls for a villian or just makes your life complicated) you get a Hero Point, which is basically a legal way to bend the rules. You can use it for more than just rerolling as well.

Tengu
2008-01-19, 12:00 PM
In short, the higher your Power Level is, the more powerful you are (hence the name :smalltongue: ).

I wonder how strong are you if you have it over 9000?
The more I learn about M&M the more I like it. It seems to be DND without the stupid elements, with lots of coolness factor and huge customizability (if that's a word)!

Also, third edition L5R seems to be combining the good elements of both first and second edition.

Green Bean
2008-01-19, 01:27 PM
I wonder how strong are you if you have it over 9000?

Really, really, really strong. For reference, Darkseid is PL 20.

Woot Spitum
2008-01-20, 10:50 PM
Well, I've thought it over and talked to my players. I have decided to get Legend of the Five Rings. Player input played a signifigant role in my decision, but ultimately it was the detailed setting of Rokugan that proved too hard to resist. Thanks for all the advice and information. My concern about Legend of the Five Rings was that I didn't understand the system, and the input of everyone who posted on it helped me to come to my decision.

One last question: As a DM, what is probably the best way to introduce new players to Rokugen?

mabriss lethe
2008-01-21, 02:37 AM
For both new players and GMs, Topaz championship.

I know both 1E and 2E had it as a starting adventure in the back of the book. I'm sure 3E does it as well.

The short and dirty:
The TC is a gempukku (coming of age) ceremony for the best and the brightest of the samurai caste in the Empire. Competition is held every year and is basically by invitation only.

The samurai, shugenja and bushi alike, go through a series of tests to prove that they're worthy of full samurai status. The tests range from weapon mastery to poetry, tea ceremony, and everything inbetween. It gives the players and newer gms a chance to get a feel for the mechanics and the atmosphere where the stakes are lower. (remembering that L5R has an extremely lethal combat system.) You basically get to screw around without worrying about dying at any given moment.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-21, 10:10 AM
Hm. Well, I'm running Mutants & Masterminds for my players, so nyah.

Nah, just kidding, L5R sounds fun, but I know next to nothing about it, so I'll just be unhelpful and chat with Tengu like I do in pretty much every thread.

Tengu: A DBZ power level of "over 9000" (that happened sometime before he fought Frieza, right?) would probably be in the mid-teens of M&M power levels. That's where people usually put Superman, and Goku's just Superman with (more) energy attacks.

Attilargh
2008-01-21, 10:54 AM
For both new players and GMs, Topaz championship.

I know both 1E and 2E had it as a starting adventure in the back of the book. I'm sure 3E does it as well.
It seems the horses ran away with it. :smallannoyed:

Another option would be to put the players into the role of a spring patrol for their Clan. Spring is the season when armies start to move, so the Clans send small patrols of new samurai to watch out for any hostile forces, bandits and suchlike. While this approach makes multi-Clan parties and courtiers pretty difficult to justify, the possibilities are endless. A blood-spattered palanquin, some looters, some faded prints and subtle hints, and the players will (hopefully) be on the path to thwart the machinations of a rival noble and his maho-tsukai (blood sorcerer) ally.

Darkflame
2008-01-21, 11:27 AM
Topaz Championship was released as a PDF Web-enhancement to the main rulebook. You can download it from L5R's webpage.

Chris

Woot Spitum
2008-01-21, 02:48 PM
I picked up the core rulebook and have started to read through it. So far, it has definately lived up to my expectations.


Topaz Championship was released as a PDF Web-enhancement to the main rulebook. You can download it from L5R's webpage.

ChrisFor free?:smallconfused: It sounds like a neat adventure.

Tengu
2008-01-21, 05:48 PM
Tengu: A DBZ power level of "over 9000" (that happened sometime before he fought Frieza, right?) would probably be in the mid-teens of M&M power levels. That's where people usually put Superman, and Goku's just Superman with (more) energy attacks.

I'm a bit ashamed to remember that so clearly, but he had over 9000 when he fought Nappa and Vegeta, which was before they came to Namek where they met Freeza. Which is very weak when compared to how strong they are later - when they fight Cell their power level is measured in hundreds of millions. Which probably makes them the power equivalent of Squirrel Girl.

By the way, if I'm not mistaken M&M is so versatile that you can basically create any character in it, much more accurately than any version of DND. I vaguely remember the stats for SOS brigade, among others.

Oh, as for L5K - unfortunately, this game is on my "I'm familiar with it but never played it and wish I would one day" list, among with Fading Suns, Mage, Deadlands and some others. So I mostly know the basics and some of the fluff.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-21, 09:42 PM
Yes, it truly is versatile. I definitely saw a build for Haruhi on there, but I don't think any other SOS Brigade members. Actually, they'd be a little tricky.

Itsuki's powers are only useful in Closed Space. Inside, he's a decent-PL energy controller archetype; outside, he's a PL 2-3 overly clever highschooler. Which, I mean, is covered by the Normal Identity drawback, but he's so limited I wouldn't really use him in a non-SOS Brigade campaign.

Mikuru's a useless bystander with a Device that allows time travel. Call her PL 3 so she hits her Diplomacy skill cap with 2 ranks of Attractive. She's a PL 0 in combat.

Yuki has exactly the opposite problem of all of these, as she's always useful and develops new powers as the plot demands it. Like Silver Age Superman. You could do her core abilities with some enhanced traits, Blast, Morph, Regeneration, Awareness, and Probability Control though (putting most of these on an Array, since she is rather limited in multitasking). Oh, and Nullify to take care of those pesky Mikuru Beams. I'd put her around PL 10, same as the "typical" superhero.

In short, it can be done, but it's more trouble than it's worth. However, there is an anime/manga supplement in the works. Judging by M&M's tendency to homage anything in the appropriate genre, we may get their official take on an ersatz SOS Brigade.

Tengu
2008-01-22, 07:19 AM
So ordinary humans are PL 2-3? (Just like in D20 Modern you are probably third level if you're out of school and have a job) What creatures have PL 1, then?

GutterRunner
2008-01-22, 10:09 AM
The topaz championship is pretty cool. In the longest campaign I played in, a couple of events that the GM added during and just after it set us off on a trip around the Empire that took about a year real time. And I just found out this week (4ish years after campaign ended) from the 2 Scorpion players that the BBEGs we took down were actually good guys being framed, and they were building a case against the real bad guy :smallannoyed:

Even if you're players are all interested in the same clan, I'd probably recomend starting with some kind of gempuku tournament to get used to the rules.

And as a bonus idea, the other long run campaign I've been in started with us all being assigned as ambassedors to a minor clan by our respective lords. Although minor clans aren't around as much as they used to be.

Pauwel
2008-01-22, 04:05 PM
So ordinary humans are PL 2-3? (Just like in D20 Modern you are probably third level if you're out of school and have a job) What creatures have PL 1, then?

Depends on what you mean by ordinary. The average bystand is statted as a PL 0 character. This should probably be considered the low average of people, but it's pretty accurate.
Remember that PL is based mostly on ones ability to fight. While it does cap skills, it does so at PL+5, which is equivalent to a typical "professional" in the low end.

About M&M's ability to stat: It is the best system for statting things I have ever seen. I've seen the Ghostbusters statted, for instance (which incidently and in a sudden epiphany of extreme geekdom gave me a strange desire to stat the Mythbusters).

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-22, 09:28 PM
Generic civilians like people you randomly see on the street are PL 0, with between 2 and 20ish "power points" worth of traits and abilities, depending on wealth and skill set.

Unpowered untrained criminals, civil servants, and the like are higher PL because they tend to get into dangerous situations like combat or Closed Space. I called Itsuki and Mikuru PL 2 or 3 or so mostly for skill caps, and because I feel like Itsuki could probably handle himself in a street fight. He's got some kind of "secret agent" training, after all.

Ordinary High School Students would definitely be PL 0.

Tengu
2008-01-23, 02:36 PM
Ordinary High School Students would definitely be PL 0.

Unless it's Bleachigo. Or unless that certain Ordinary High School Student is the main character, like Youko* from Twelve Kingdoms.

* - I wanted to give Ikari Shinji as an example at first, but then I realized he's not an Ordinary High School Student - he's an Ordinary Middle School Student.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-23, 02:42 PM
You know, rather than continuing to discuss corner cases like this, I'm just going to link you to the official forums' Roll Call section (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewforum.php?f=14&sid=e547a5dc496a7921b3a05ae818c2bb2c), where people do all these crazy builds. Particularly check out Kreuz Control, Taliesin's builds, Kerevision, and the thread with "anime character conversions" in the title that seems to have fallen off the front page.

And I think I did see PL 1 Shinji/Rei (II)/Asuka builds on there, meant as normal IDs for their respective EVA Units.