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View Full Version : Phantom Steed, really this good?



Tyger
2008-01-16, 08:46 AM
OK, I have a level 11 Wizard, and we do a fair amount of outdoor adventuring. I've been looking over the Phantom Steed spell and it just seems too good to be true. At level 11, I can have the steed move 220 feet, I cast a spell (admitedly with a DC 15 + Spell Level Concentration check) then it moves 220 feet again??? All with no (or very low DC) ride checks? This can not be right. :)

And in three levels, it can fly at an even faster speed??

Is this an accurate, and effective, use of the spell?

UglyPanda
2008-01-16, 09:00 AM
The casting time is ten minutes, so it has to be summoned ahead of time; It has none of the special abilities other special mounts possess; You have to make concentration checks; You still have to make ride checks; It can only fully fly at caster level 14; It can't attack, ever.

It gets you there fast, but can't really do anything once you're there. If you're doing gish, there are a couple of better mounts. You could fly straight up, but that's what overland flight is for. If you're going for sheer distance, you already have teleport and dimension door by the level it gets really high.

You could do worse, but at higher levels you can do better.

Thinker
2008-01-16, 09:31 AM
Its a great spell. The sheer tactical ability the spell offers is what makes it amazing. The fly speed means you're hardly ever in danger while in any sort of open area.

Neftren
2008-01-16, 10:09 AM
It's useful if you're say... a Bard. If you're a Wizard or Sorcerer, as it has been pointed out, you already can teleport and fly.

Theli
2008-01-16, 10:12 AM
Hey, it can also be dispelled. :D

Admiral Squish
2008-01-16, 10:14 AM
Does it have to be a horse? Can it be other ride-able beasties? That would be pretty interesting, even if it didn't change the actual stats.

Theli
2008-01-16, 10:20 AM
There is that one metamagic feat from that one splat book that lets your spells take different forms at a zero increase in spell level.

Although if you're up to searching the DMG for it, I think it suggests that you could allow the player the opportunity to affect the description of their spell effects, with some limitations.

As a DM, I would allow it to some extant. But your campaignage may vary.

Tyger
2008-01-16, 10:21 AM
The casting time is ten minutes, so it has to be summoned ahead of time;

And it lasts hours per level, so why would this be an issue?


It has none of the special abilities other special mounts possess;

You mean like moving 4-5 times faster than a normal horse? Or do you mean the ability to move over difficult terrain with no penalty? Or the water walking, air walking, flying?


You have to make concentration checks;

You always have to make concentration checks when riding a mount and casting.


You still have to make ride checks;

Yup, just like any other mount. Except just riding it as noted above (ride in, cast spell, ride out) has no DC, or at worst a DC of 5...


It can only fully fly at caster level 14;

True. And at level 14, it flies with average manueverability at a speed of 240. 2.4 times faster than a Hippogriff. Twice as fast as a Pegasus, 3 times faster than a Roc, 3 times faster than a Griffon, faster than any dragon, up to Wyrm in age anyway...


It can't attack, ever.

Very true. But as noted in the first post, it was all about moving in, casting and moving out. Fast. Attacking would be nice, but my wizard prefers not to stay in melee range... ever. :)


It gets you there fast, but can't really do anything once you're there. If you're doing gish, there are a couple of better mounts. You could fly straight up, but that's what overland flight is for. If you're going for sheer distance, you already have teleport and dimension door by the level it gets really high.

You could do worse, but at higher levels you can do better.

OK... what would be better? Based on the get in, cast, get out, criteria. Cost is a factor (this spell is free, every day) but not the only factor.

And sure, this can be dispelled, but its also not subject to compulsions or charms, dominates or fears.... in short, the things that other mounts are subject to, so that may equal out in the long run.


It's useful if you're say... a Bard. If you're a Wizard or Sorcerer, as it has been pointed out, you already can teleport and fly.

Well, Teleport is a fifth level spell... great for traversing long distances, not too much use as a combat mobility spell. And Fly is great, but a) minutes duration, and 60 foot movement rate vs. PSs hours duration and 240 movement.

Funkyodor
2008-01-16, 10:24 AM
Some other disadvantages are...

It has a distinctive appearance (insubstantial hooves and all) so enemies might figure out it can be dispelled or Spellcraft checks to know what it is.
No inherant fall protection if flying or over water
Fixed AC and low HP

And it's 220 feet then a DC 10+spell lvl concentration check before moving another 220 feet.

It's a quadruple move to get a DC 15+spell lvl concentration check.

Don't forget about the Ride check. Another big question is whether the Phantom Steed is considered a mount not trained for combat riding while in battle, or is it considered a War trained animal. That would change the Ride check to rather difficult for combat use. Otherwise it is a rather easy DC to auto succeed on.

Tyger
2008-01-16, 10:31 AM
Some other disadvantages are...

It has a distinctive appearance (insubstantial hooves and all) so enemies might figure out it can be dispelled or Spellcraft checks to know what it is.
No inherant fall protection if flying or over water
Fixed AC and low HP

Good point. Ring of Counterspelling up already. And the falling is a problem, but Feather Fall is always available.


And it's 220 feet then a DC 10+spell lvl concentration check before moving another 220 feet.

It's a quadruple move to get a DC 15+spell lvl concentration check.

True, but those Concentration checks should be ridiculously easy for any Wiz to make. My character can auto make any of them at the moment. Even casting a 6th level spell, its only a DC 16 for the base move, and he's got 14 ranks in the skill, + 4 from CON. So, not even a 1 is a failure.


Don't forget about the Ride check. Another big question is whether the Phantom Steed is considered a mount not trained for combat riding while in battle, or is it considered a War trained animal. That would change the Ride check to rather difficult for combat use. Otherwise it is a rather easy DC to auto succeed on.

Well, assuming that the reason non-war trained anmals have a higher control DC is fear of combat... this would not be an issue here. Of course, its DM discretion there really, but even if that's the case, its not going to be used in that manner anyway.

daggaz
2008-01-16, 10:38 AM
As a DM, I would scoff at the notion that 'phantom steed' is any kind of animal, trained or not. Its NOT an animal.. Its a spell. Your spell. It doesn't get scared, it isn't battleshy, it doesn't worry about breaking a leg when jumping over fences. You still have to make ride checks, because you do need to stay in the saddle, but they are the lowest checks available, because your steed doesn't need battletraining. (Doesn't need it, and doesn't have it. Nor does it have any other kinds of special training, so no special tricks beyond basic riding and calling it over to you.)


As far as changing its appearance, I would have no problem whatsoever so long as the fluff was pure fluff and had no mechanical advantage. So if you are dealing with drow, and want to summon a phantom spider steed, its a no go. Or if you are fighting some kind of monsters who have a morbid fear of unicorns, you arent going to get to have a phantom unicorn steed, either. That kind of thing.. Because of the obvious problems here, I would probably end up limiting it to typical riding creatures, of normal coloration. So yeah, no phantom red dragon steeds, either =P

Tyger
2008-01-16, 10:44 AM
As a DM, I would scoff at the notion that 'phantom steed' is any kind of animal, trained or not. Its NOT an animal.. Its a spell. Your spell. It doesn't get scared, it isn't battleshy, it doesn't worry about breaking a leg when jumping over fences. You still have to make ride checks, because you do need to stay in the saddle, but they are the lowest checks available, because your steed doesn't need battletraining. (Doesn't need it, and doesn't have it. Nor does it have any other kinds of special training, so no special tricks beyond basic riding and calling it over to you.)

Yes, this is exactly the stance I would take as well. But it is somewhat open to interpretation. :smallsmile:

daggaz
2008-01-16, 10:50 AM
yeah, well I base that off of my own riding experience. 99% of a ride check is usually just getting the animal to do what you want. Staying in the saddle isnt all that hard. usually. That said, I would increase the ride DC for riding in incredibly difficult terrain (ala The Man From Snowy River), except for one tiny immutable fact. The phantom steed ignores terrain type. =) It would be like riding a ghost motorcylcle down a steep dirt track, where you simply didnt feel a single bump as you just kinda slid thru every obstacle. nice.

UglyPanda
2008-01-16, 10:52 AM
Stuff

I was just stating the facts. It's a decent spell, but by no means overpowered. I personally wouldn't use it as I don't really see what the point of that speed advantage is. There are diminishing returns to movement rates. How big are your battlefields going to be and how far apart are the enemies? I suspect it might be a great spell for some sort of lance-wielding gish general though. I don't know what your games are like, so it might actually be useful for you.

Edit: I didn't notice before, but phantom steeds are large. Can a small-sized creature ride a large animal? Also, saving throws are unlisted.

Saph
2008-01-16, 12:04 PM
The main problem with the spell is this part:


The mount has an AC of 18 (-1 size, +4 natural armor, +5 Dex) and 7 hit points +1 hit point per caster level. If it loses all its hit points, the phantom steed disappears.

That means one good shot and you're falling out of the air, which limits its use in combat. If you're not in combat, then great, but how's the rest of the party going to keep up with you?

The ride-in-cast-a-spell-ride-out part sounds good, but has the same problem as all evasion strategies - namely, there's nothing to stop the monster from just eating your teammates instead.

- Saph

Solo
2008-01-16, 12:18 PM
The ride-in-cast-a-spell-ride-out part sounds good, but has the same problem as all evasion strategies - namely, there's nothing to stop the monster from just eating your teammates instead.

- Saph

After which you kill the monster by being Batman/Robin and loot your companion's corpses for items and money.

What's the problem here?

Tyger
2008-01-16, 12:27 PM
That means one good shot and you're falling out of the air, which limits its use in combat.

Yes, that is a pretty significant issue, but its not that much worse than a horse... and if the enemy used its attack taking out my PS, that's one shot that didn't hit me or my allies. :smallsmile:


If you're not in combat, then great, but how's the rest of the party going to keep up with you?

The ride-in-cast-a-spell-ride-out part sounds good, but has the same problem as all evasion strategies - namely, there's nothing to stop the monster from just eating your teammates instead.

- Saph

Well, I am seeing this more as a great way of getting around on the battlefield, always knowing that the range of my spells isn't going to be an issue. Want to cast a short range spell but make damned sure you are out of charge range for that bad guy. No problem. Dash in 200 feet, cast the spell at 30 feet away, then dash out 200 feet. Ally down for the count across the field? No worries. Ride in 200 feet, grab your potion of healing, pour it down his throat, and dash off another 200 feet to be ready for your next turn.

Almost useless in most underground or urban settings, but on the open field, or any sort of outdoor terrain, this is sounding better and better all the time.

And besides, my team mates are far more able to stand up to a bit of chewing on by bad guys than I am. :smallbiggrin:

Toliudar
2008-01-16, 01:11 PM
The only restriction I'd apply to the tactics you're describing, Tyger, is to limit your ability to split your mount's action the way you're describing it. As I understand most of your scenarios, you're having the mount take part of its action, they the rider takes their full action, and the mount completes their action. I can find no ruling that suggests this is possible.

If the mount is using a set of actions separate from the riders (in other words, you're not using the rider's move action to move the mount), then I don't think you should be able to split it up.

Having said all this, I agree with you that this is a terrific spell, with numerous applications in combat situations, but really coming into its own to speed up the time spent between major events. As part of a 10th level party on phantom steeds, I was essentially able to zip past a set of sentries simply because by the time they saw us coming, we were already gone.

Sonofaspectre
2008-01-16, 01:59 PM
Hurrah, Phantom Steed. Hurrah, Phantom Gish (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)! If the Steed was not strong enough, I love this prestige class. Figured I'd add more fodder to the Phantom Steed arguement.

Chronos
2008-01-16, 02:06 PM
You can take ranged actions while your mount makes a full move. If you do so, your action is assumed to take place halfway through the mount's move. You can even take move-equivalent actions yourself, so long as they don't involve actually moving (like reloading a crossbow).

Sonofaspectre, the thing with the Knight Phantom is that it largely gives you things you already have. For instance, the class gives you the ability to call a phantom steed... But you need to already have the Phantom Steed spell to enter the class. It's not too much more powerful than the plain old Eldritch Knight, which gives you a bonus fighter feat.

Tyger
2008-01-16, 03:08 PM
The only restriction I'd apply to the tactics you're describing, Tyger, is to limit your ability to split your mount's action the way you're describing it. As I understand most of your scenarios, you're having the mount take part of its action, they the rider takes their full action, and the mount completes their action. I can find no ruling that suggests this is possible.

If the mount is using a set of actions separate from the riders (in other words, you're not using the rider's move action to move the mount), then I don't think you should be able to split it up.

It is actually explicitly stated in the rules that you can do just what I am describing.


Casting Spells while Mounted
You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).

Just made your enjoyment of the spell all that much more. :)

Worira
2008-01-16, 03:18 PM
The biggest problem with the spell is "I ready an action to fire at the steed with my longbow when it comes within 110 feet."

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-16, 04:11 PM
It is actually explicitly stated in the rules that you can do just what I am describing.

Just made your enjoyment of the spell all that much more. :)

You are correct about the spell casting while mounted. It is hardly a difficult DC to beat.

However, this part might not be as easy to pull of:



Ally down for the count across the field? No worries. Ride in 200 feet, grab your potion of healing, pour it down his throat, and dash off another 200 feet to be ready for your next turn.

Solo
2008-01-16, 04:37 PM
The biggest problem with the spell is "I ready an action to fire at the steed with my longbow when it comes within 110 feet."

Wind Wall? Protection from Arrows? Blink? Mirror Image? Blur? Invisibility?

Would any of those help you while committing what is effectively a magical drive by shooting?

Zeful
2008-01-16, 05:07 PM
No, yes, yes, not so much, only once

Wind wall like the other wall spells is stationary (although readied actions take place before the triggerring action so it could be useful)

Protection from Arrows would be better, in my opinion, to use on the steed then yourself.

Blink and mirror image may be helpful depending on siuation.

and invisibility is nice but greater invisibilty is better.

marjan
2008-01-16, 05:16 PM
No, yes, yes, not so much, only once

Wind wall like the other wall spells is stationary (although readied actions take place before the triggerring action so it could be useful)

Protection from Arrows would be better, in my opinion, to use on the steed then yourself.

Blink and mirror image may be helpful depending on siuation.

and invisibility is nice but greater invisibilty is better.

Protection From Arrows sucks past lvl4, since it's DR/magic.

Invisibility is better for Phantom Steed since it doesn't attack so it won't break it, lasts longer and is lower level spell.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-16, 05:31 PM
I recommend Bottle of Smoke as a superior alternative to Phantom Steed. It still takes 10 minutes to cast, but then the steed is saved in the bottle for use whenever you unstopper it. You'll need a Druid or high CL Ranger, though; no Sorcerer or Wizard weenies need apply for this excellent spell.

Aquillion
2008-01-16, 05:31 PM
Some other disadvantages are...

No inherant fall protection if flying or over waterWell, technically...


Ride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm)

Check
Typical riding actions don’t require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem.

The following tasks do require checks.

...

Soft Fall
You can react instantly to try to take no damage when you fall off a mount—when it is killed or when it falls, for example. If you fail your Ride check, you take 1d6 points of falling damage. This usage does not take an action.Doesn't say anything about how far up you are.

Solo
2008-01-16, 05:32 PM
*stabs*

Your lies cannot hurt me.

That was written for people riding mounts on the ground.

If you fall off in mid air, you're going to get a very personal introduction to the ground regardless of your ride check.

marjan
2008-01-16, 05:35 PM
If you fall off in mid air, you're going to get a very personal introduction to the ground regardless of your ride check.

Unless you close your eyes. That gives 50% miss chance.:smalltongue:

Solo
2008-01-16, 05:38 PM
You have chosen the path of defeat.

Talya
2008-01-16, 05:38 PM
Well, technically...

Doesn't say anything about how far up you are.

Do you know what my DM would do to me if I tried to argue that?

RandomFellow
2008-01-16, 05:39 PM
Unless you close your eyes. That gives 50% miss chance.:smalltongue:

The Ground is Blind with out any sensory apparatus. It is already a 50% miss chance. With that, it would be 25%!

Clearly, there are some misconceptions that need fixing! =)

j/k =)

Solo
2008-01-16, 05:40 PM
Clearly, the only thing that can save us from more "missing the ground" jokes and the inevitable Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference is rampant and unchecked stabbing.

marjan
2008-01-16, 05:41 PM
The Ground is Blind with out any sensory apparatus. It is already a 50% miss chance. With that, it would be 25%!

Clearly, there are some misconceptions that need fixing! =)

j/k =)

Technically, since you are the one hitting the ground you need to be blind.
I sure hope you didn't take Blind-Fight.:smallbiggrin:

Theli
2008-01-16, 05:46 PM
Invisibility is better for Phantom Steed since it doesn't attack so it won't break it, lasts longer and is lower level spell.

Speaking of which, what would it take to strike an invisible mount when the creature that's riding it is plainly visible?

Can enemies be assumed to know the square(s) which the mount occupies due to the presence of its rider? Since this is known, would it just be a 50% concealment miss chance?

marjan
2008-01-16, 05:49 PM
Speaking of which, what would it take to strike an invisible mount when the creature that's riding it is plainly visibible?

Can enemies be assumed to know the square(s) which the mount occupies due to the presence of its rider? Since this is known, would it just be a 50% concealment miss chance?

Common sense would say just 50% miss chance. On the other hand rider could be just floating around in funny position.

Talya
2008-01-16, 05:50 PM
Speaking of which, what would it take to strike an invisible mount when the creature that's riding it is plainly visibible?

Can enemies be assumed to know the square(s) which the mount occupies due to the presence of its rider? Since this is known, would it just be a 50% concealment miss chance?

Assuming an opponent with an intelligence of 3 or greater, I'd say that this is reasonable.

It's still a house rule, though. :(

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-16, 06:00 PM
No one is forcing you to make an educated guess. You can choose to attack into any random square. A good starting bet would then be the one occupying the horseless horseman.

This also results in a 50 % miss chance, just as if you had pinpointed the creature.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-01-16, 06:14 PM
Screw Phantom steed, my next Wizard will just cast fly and fly around positioned as if he was riding a Phantom Steed, just to get people to attack the spaces under him...:smallbiggrin:

Theli
2008-01-16, 06:22 PM
Except that a phantom steed is a good deal faster than the flight spells for the levels where it can fly. :p

Talya
2008-01-16, 06:29 PM
Screw Phantom steed, my next Wizard will just cast fly and fly around positioned as if he was riding a Phantom Steed, just to get people to attack the spaces under him...:smallbiggrin:

Roll bluff, please.

Collin152
2008-01-16, 08:14 PM
Except that a phantom steed is a good deal faster than the flight spells for the levels where it can fly. :p

How do they know the invisible steed is flying? You're close to the ground.
Honestly, I'd rather attack the wizard.

Theli
2008-01-16, 08:17 PM
Well, if the wizard is close to the ground, then of course. :p

Solo
2008-01-16, 08:19 PM
Screw Phantom steed, my next Wizard will just cast fly and fly around positioned as if he was riding a Phantom Steed, just to get people to attack the spaces under him...:smallbiggrin:

You don't suppose there will be a problem when the bolt misses the "horse" and lodges itself in your crown jewels?

marjan
2008-01-16, 08:26 PM
You don't suppose there will be a problem when the bolt misses the "horse" and lodges itself in your crown jewels?

That's what Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) is for. Though I would like to avoid the need for it.

Stormcrow
2008-01-16, 09:03 PM
I first read this as Platonic Steed. This is much less awkward. :P

Talya
2008-01-16, 09:07 PM
I first read this as Platonic Steed. This is much less awkward. :P

While I know what you mean, it's not the platonic version of the steed that is disturbing.