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View Full Version : Can you consistently charge while spring-attacking?



F.L.
2008-01-16, 10:04 AM
Basically, can you charge every round by doing the following: charge 10' into an enemy, attack, retreat 10' as your move?

Keld Denar
2008-01-16, 10:08 AM
No, you can not spring attack and charge in the same round (barring a Belt of Battle or Greater Celerity). Both require a full round action to complete (well, charge CAN be done with a standard, but only if you are prevented from taking a full round action, such as during a suprise round). Go read spring attack again. Its really not that good.

The only thing you can take in either is an attack action (attack, grapple attemt, trip attempt, etc). They don't even allow you a standard equivilant action (so no Strikes if you are a martial class, or Manyshots if you are that kind of archer).

EDIT: Hey Theli, my RL init mod for posting is +8, what's yours? I recommend taking levels in the Ninja Poster pclass to nab Improved Posting Init as a bonus feat.

Theli
2008-01-16, 10:09 AM
A charge is a special action.

Using the spring attack feat only allows you to move after you do a move + attack, with the added benefit of avoiding AOOs from the target.

They are not combinable by RAW.


Edit: Ninja'd. Woo.

new1965
2008-01-16, 10:11 AM
Basically, can you charge every round by doing the following: charge 10' into an enemy, attack, retreat 10' as your move?

Hmmmm Unless you have an extra feat, you cant change direction and charge is a full round action so you wouldn't be able to retreat AFTER the attack I think

Edit: took too long to check the rule and got Ninja'd!

daggaz
2008-01-16, 10:13 AM
This should go under the Simple Questions and Answers thread, but oh well here you go.

No.

Charging is a special full round action.

Spring attack is feat that allows you to move before and after your attack, when using a standard melee attack action.

EDIT: Ninja's! I should have had more pirates on guard duty..

Theli
2008-01-16, 10:17 AM
If you are willing to support a mount, Ride-by attack WOULD allow you to do a kind of charge + movement. This will even let you move double your mounted speed as normal for a charge.

Darrin
2008-01-16, 10:18 AM
Basically, can you charge every round by doing the following: charge 10' into an enemy, attack, retreat 10' as your move?

No. Spring Attack is a standard action. Charging is a full-round action that specifically forbids any movement after the attack. (Although I suppose there is an argument that Spring Attack precludes the movement restrictions on charging....) Anyway, by RAW, I believe Spring Attack can't be combined with any full-round actions.

Avoid Spring Attack. Travel Devotion is the new Spring Attack.

For example, available at level 1:

Human Lion Totem Barbarian
Feats: TWF, Travel Devotion.
Round 1: Charge + Full Attack.
Round 2: Travel devotion as swift action, move 10'. Charge + Full Attack.
Rounds 3-11: Rinse and Repeat.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 10:19 AM
I see. So, you can't charge on a spring attack, but you can ninja on a simple question. It's resolved for me then. Thanks all.

So much for combining bounding assault and two weapon pounce.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 10:24 AM
Typically, the Spring attack feats get more powerful than the charge feats at higher levels. Rapid blitz allow three attacks as a standar action, and the ability to move out of combat, denying your opponent the ability to use a full attack action back at you. Charges are for one single overwhelming attack like the spell Rhino's Rush where you get to double the damage if you charge.

Keld Denar
2008-01-16, 12:09 PM
Typically, the Spring attack feats get more powerful than the charge feats at higher levels. Rapid blitz allow three attacks as a standar action, and the ability to move out of combat, denying your opponent the ability to use a full attack action back at you. Charges are for one single overwhelming attack like the spell Rhino's Rush where you get to double the damage if you charge.

Unless you have pounce (lion totem barb or other) or a number of damage multiplying feats/abilities or both. Go over to the Gleemax forums and search for ubercharger and uberercharger. The numbers you'll see there are kind of staggering. Even just PA + Leap Attack is already a 4-1 return on PA multiplyers as currently FAQed. Add in Shock Trooper for 0 penalty to hit, and things like Battle Jump, Valorous weapon enhancement, Heedless Charge and a few other factors and you can get that multiplier up to a respectable number. Then just PA for the house and pray you don't roll a 1. Anything you reach will be reduced to a fine red mist before 6 seconds are up. Obviously, this is a bit extreme, but it shows that even at Rapid Blitz level, Spring Attack will never be as viable a damage delivery source as charging if you optimize each to the same degree. You don't have to worry about being in range of your opponent if you kill them first.

Person_Man
2008-01-16, 12:28 PM
If you want a mobile melee attacker, one of your best options is to find a way to get Pounce (there's over 30 I know of), Charge your enemy, and then Hustle (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hustle) away from the front line (using Tumble if necessary).

But really, most mobile melee offense builds I've seen are a bad idea. So you might be able to avoid a full attack. But your enemy can still just Move up to you and attack. Your enemy can still attack you with ranged weapons. Your enemy can still cast most spells and special abilities. And your enemy can still full attack your other party members who are standing next to him. So you're really not gaining much in most circumstances.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 04:41 PM
So you're really not gaining much in most circumstances.

Except skirmish damage.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-16, 04:48 PM
Except skirmish damage.

Which is incredibly subpar as far as extra damage goes. Not only is in smaller amounts than other standard forms of extra damage (+1d6/4 levels for Skirmish instead of +1d6/2 levels for Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike), but it follows the same rules they do (target must not be immune to sneak attacks/critical hits, have discernible anatomy, etc.), doesn't allow you to qualify for things like Ambush feats or PrCs that require bonus damage for entry, and requires you to move first, thus nullifying your chances (barring multiclassing or feat expenditure) of getting more than one attack.

Skirmish is pretty crappy. That's why I came up with Strafe.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 05:00 PM
Which is incredibly subpar as far as extra damage goes. Not only is in smaller amounts than other standard forms of extra damage (+1d6/4 levels for Skirmish instead of +1d6/2 levels for Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike), but it follows the same rules they do (target must not be immune to sneak attacks/critical hits, have discernible anatomy, etc.), doesn't allow you to qualify for things like Ambush feats or PrCs that require bonus damage for entry, and requires you to move first, thus nullifying your chances (barring multiclassing or feat expenditure) of getting more than one attack.

Skirmish is pretty crappy. That's why I came up with Strafe.

But assuming you can get the spring attack/bounding assault feat chain, snap kick, and, say, slashing flurry or something, it's not terrible. There may be better choices, but in this case, you get 3+ attacks while moving, granting skirmish on each one (I assume these feats work, which is why I asked about spring attack + charge in the first place).

Fax Celestis
2008-01-16, 05:25 PM
But assuming you can get the spring attack/bounding assault feat chain, snap kick, and, say, slashing flurry or something, it's not terrible. There may be better choices, but in this case, you get 3+ attacks while moving, granting skirmish on each one (I assume these feats work, which is why I asked about spring attack + charge in the first place).

Reread Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz: you can't use them on the same target.

marjan
2008-01-16, 05:33 PM
Reread Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz: you can't use them on the same target.

You can. You just designate two or three targets that won't get AoOs against you. Bounding Assault says that that you can use both attacks against same opponent or split them if you wish.