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DareTheRogue
2008-01-16, 10:14 AM
how powerful is strength damage.
using the rogue special ability, cripling strike, possibly 4 DMg at level 12

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 10:18 AM
how powerful is strength damage.
using the rogue special ability, cripling strike, possibly 4 DMg at level 12

Crippling. An average fighter that has his STR reduced to average generally falls down under the weight of his armor and gear. Same goes for clerics. Classes that don't rely as much on their STR (rogue, sor/wiz, swashbuckler, ect) don't feel the bite so keenly. But keep in mind that any time you reduce someone to 0 STR they are helpless.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-16, 10:24 AM
ok well then after 10 levels in rogue what can I do to maximize hitting with crippling strike, feats and PrCs?

Telonius
2008-01-16, 10:35 AM
Well, any full-BAB class will help you connect more often. You'll hit more often if your attack bonus is higher. If you're going with Weapon Finesse or Ranged Sneak, boost your Dex. Flank a lot. Ring of Invisibility and Ring of Blink will help. Get a more powerful weapon. All pretty standard stuff, really.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 10:36 AM
Try PHB II. I believe the feat is called Vexing Flanker. Give +4 as opposed to +2 when flanking a target.

Weapon Focus is always good for +1.

As a rogue Weapon Finesse is a good way to maximize your high Dex.

If you have the 4 levels of fighter, Weapon Mastery is good for +2 att/ +2 dmg

Edit: ninja'd courtesy of Telonius

DareTheRogue
2008-01-16, 10:39 AM
well I want to keep a few skills maxed, disable device, search and open lock. But getting a full BaB isn't so easy with those skills. Other fluff like higher dex, weapon finesse, a ring are no problem

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 10:41 AM
Try Nightsong Enforcer form Complete Adventurer. If memory serves you get most rogue skill and full BAB, but you lose a lot of sneak attack, and get very few skill points.

daggaz
2008-01-16, 10:53 AM
Just keep in mind when fighting dwarves, that they wont really care about their encumbarance until it becomes unbearable.. =)

Keld Denar
2008-01-16, 11:07 AM
The big number for most fighter types is 13. If you can drop their modified str below 13, they lose access to their Power Attack feat. Power Attack is the primary source of melee damage for 90% of fighters. Its also the base of a fair number of feat chains which include Improved Bullrush (Shocktrooper) and Cleave.

Also, think about this. Every 2 points of str damage you deal, you give your opponent -1 to hit and -1 to -1.5 to damage. That is effectively giving you +1 AC and +1-1.5 DR PER HIT. So, to maximize this, maximize the number of attacks you make in a round (TWF, haste, feats, class abilities) and maximize your ability to qualify for sneak attack (greater invis, flanking, blinking, etc). There are a number of threads that deal with this situation.

Watch out for things that can't be crit/SAed, they also don't take str damage from this attack. Also, some things are immune to ability damage.

Rad
2008-01-16, 11:23 AM
I'd suggest TWF as well; avoid weapon specialization though, the +2 damage is not going to make any real difference.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-16, 11:36 AM
well then here are my builds:
human rogue 10
feats:
1vexing flanker
1TWF
3Weapon Finesse
6Weapon Focus (shortsword)
9Frightful Presence? Or _____
12Savvy Rogue

Kenku rogue 10
feats:
1TWF
3Weapon Finesse
6Weapon Focus (claws)
9Frightful Presence? Or _____
12Savvy Rogue

Falrin
2008-01-16, 11:58 AM
A spellstoring weapon, Ray of enfeeblement & a willing caster can be very good to you.

Don't know if it's legal, but a wand & enough ranks in UMD gets you there too.

When going with the help of 10 LvL caster & Spellstore Weapons.

1d6+5 + 2 Str Damage
1d6+5 + 2 Str Damage

That's 21 Str Damage On average.

ealan
2008-01-16, 12:22 PM
Well if you want the Nightsong Enforcer levels the take Improved Initiative, it is a pre-req

If he goes Kenku and uses his claws the spellstoring in some campaigns won't be happening to his claws, a wand if the DM allows it but he would have to sacrifice a hand to hold it.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-16, 12:31 PM
I want to go Kenku but Human would work, just cost me 2 feats... from lvl 11-___ I am going to take Nightsong Enforcer, my DM may drop the special req, otherwise I will take a level beforehand so that the character "supposedly" met the reqs.

human rogue 10
feats:
1Combat Reflex
1Vexing Flanker
3TWF
6Weapon Finesse
9Improved Initiative
12Savvy Rogue

Kenku rogue 10
feats:
1TWF
3Weapon Finesse
6Weapon Focus (claws)
9Improved Initiative
12Savvy Rogue

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 01:10 PM
Just remember with the spell storing weapon that Ray of enfeeblement is a penalty, and not damage. Also, multiple castings trump and not stack with each other. Falls under the can't have bonuses or penalties stack that come from the same source/ type.

I suggested weapon spec only because it is a prerequisite to getting Melee Mastery. But that's only good if you'd need the other coupla feats from fighter for something else.

Person_Man
2008-01-16, 01:26 PM
I want to go Kenku but Human would work, just cost me 2 feats... from lvl 11-___ I am going to take Nightsong Enforcer, my DM may drop the special req, otherwise I will take a level beforehand so that the character "supposedly" met the reqs.

human rogue 10
feats:
1Combat Reflex
1Vexing Flanker
3TWF
6Weapon Finesse
9Improved Initiative
12Savvy Rogue

Kenku rogue 10
feats:
1TWF
3Weapon Finesse
6Weapon Focus (claws)
9Improved Initiative
12Savvy Rogue

In most cases feats that provide minor static bonuses are weak. Strong feats provide a new ability that you cannot otherwise get efficiently with magic, provide at least one extra attack most rounds, or provide damage that scales with levels.

So Vexing Flanker and Weapon Focus are generally considered weak feats compared to most other feats. Similarly, Weapon Finesse is a waste unless the difference between your Str and Dex is obnoxiously large. Combat Reflexes is a great feat, if you have a build that generates more then 1 attack of opportunity most rounds. But it doesn't seem as if your build does that. So I'd drop it.

Here's a list of other feats you might want to consider:

TWF or archer tree: More attacks.

Savvy Rogue: Improves all your Special Rogue abilities. Comp Scoundrel

Maiming Strike: Replaces Sneak Attack with Cha damage on a 2d6 for 1 basis. Some enemies have piss poor Cha. If they have high Cha, they often depend on it to cast. Exemplars of Evil.

Staggering Strike: When you Sneak Attack an enemy, they must Save or be Staggered for one round, limiting them to a single Move or Standard action. Comp Adventurer.

Craven: +1 Sneak Attack damage per character level. Champions of Ruin.

Double Hit: Allows you to make two attacks when you make an attack of opportunity. Works well with Opportunist, Trip builds, etc. Miniatures Handbook.

Frightful Presence: Good for social Rogues with high Cha. Enemies must Save each round or be shaken. Fear effects stack, so if your enemy fails two Saves, he tries to run away. Draconomicon (also available through a graft in Races of the Dragon).

Undo Resistance: Sneak Attacks lower Spell Resistance. Great for high level characters. Fiendish Codex II.

Darkstalker: Lets you Hide, even if your enemy has scent, tremorsense, see invisibility, etc. Great for builds that can pick up Hide in Plain Sight. Lords of Madness.

Lion Tribe Warrior: Gives you limited Pounce without having to multi-class or PrC. Shining South.

Neraph Charge: The first time you charge an enemy, he is denied his Dex bonus. An easy way to qualify for Sneak Attack without Flanking. Neraph (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2) get a superior version of this ability for free. Planar Handbook.

Dragonfire Strike: Allows you to convert Sneak Attack into energy damage. This solves Rogues' problems with undead, plants, etc. Dragon Magic.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-16, 02:32 PM
ok so consider this then:
1 Improved Initiate(preq for nightsong)
1 weapon finesse (my STR may be horrible)
3 TWF
6 _______ ?Dragonfire Strike?
9 feat I cant remember the name of that gives a +2 to hit for each 1d6 of sneak attack you give up
12 Savvy Rogue

Roderick_BR
2008-01-16, 02:51 PM
For some cheese, get scrolls (or wands) of Wraith Strike (sp?) to make your attack ignore armor. There's a magic weapon that gives a similar effect in the Magic itens compendium. Also, there's the feat Slink in the Armor or something, that ignores half the target's armor and natural armor.
If you can spend some resources for a well timed attack that'll weaken a foe considerably, Crippling Strike is a good use for it.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-16, 03:59 PM
If Kenku:
1 Improved Initiate(preq for nightsong)
3 weapon finesse (my STR may be horrible)
6 TWF
9 Precise Strike (DR310 p69)
12 Savvy Rogue

If Human:
1 Improved Initiate(preq for nightsong)
1 TWF (PH p102)
3 Weapon Finesse (my STR may be horrible)
6 Precise Strike (DR310 p69)
9 Double Hit (Mini p25)
12 Savvy Rogue

DareTheRogue
2008-01-17, 11:31 PM
Well he is all written up:

Human Rogue9/Nightsong Enforcer 1
Ability:
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 16
Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Initiative
Weapon Finesse
Precise Strike
Two Weapon Fighting
Equipment(provided by party treasure):
Amulet of Mighty Fist +5
Mithral Breastplate
Ring of Protection +3
Ring of Energy Resist, Greater Acid
Armbands of Prestigitation
+2 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity
+5 Competence bonus to Sleight of Hand checks
Mage Hand, 3/day
Prestidigitation, 3/day
2 Immovable Rods

I believe they outfitted me quite well.

Next level I will be taking my last level in Rogue and start doing Str damage as often as possible, even using Precise Strike to get the +12 bonus to hit with the loss of my Sneak Attack Damage, to do the Str damage. The Amulet of Mighty Fist +5 is my favorite item they gave me. I have an AC of 23. Well I guess he is all done, anything else?

AslanCross
2008-01-18, 12:14 AM
Well he is all written up:

Human Rogue9/Nightsong Enforcer 1
Ability:
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 16


Wow, congrats on those rolls. They're pretty good. My party's rogue has really good DEX, INT and CHA, but has to deal with 8 WIS. (Fits her character, anyway).

You might consider teaming up with one of your party members often to help increase your flanking. Our rogue usually teams up with the ranger, and both of them use TWF. It's a pretty effective tactic as long as you know the enemy does not have a good chance of tearing you to ribbons after surviving your sneak attacks.

The_Snark
2008-01-18, 12:26 AM
Frightful Presence: Good for social Rogues with high Cha. Enemies must Save each round or be shaken. Fear effects stack, so if your enemy fails two Saves, he tries to run away. Draconomicon (also available through a graft in Races of the Dragon).

It only affects enemies with fewer levels or HD than you, though, making its use rather limited, and if they make 1 save, they're immune after that. Limited use, I think.


Neraph Charge: The first time you charge an enemy, he is denied his Dex bonus. An easy way to qualify for Sneak Attack without Flanking. Neraph (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2) get a superior version of this ability for free. Planar Handbook.

Good, but the Wisdom prerequisite (15) is annoyingly high. If you can afford it, though, it should be combined with Two-weapon Pounce or some other pounce ability.


Dragonfire Strike: Allows you to convert Sneak Attack into energy damage. This solves Rogues' problems with undead, plants, etc. Dragon Magic.[/spoiler]

Actually, the way I (and my DM) read this one, it doesn't. It specifies that you can substitute energy damage "when you gain extra damage from a sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish," and against a precision-immune enemy, you're not gaining that extra damage in the first place. Up to interpretation, I suppose. It also requires the dragonblood subtype, which means you have to be a kobold, dragonborn, one of the Dragon Magic races (silverbrow human works, but you lose the extra human skill points), or expend another feat to get it.

I reccomend you use Dungeonscape's Penetrating Strike feature; the ability to deal some sneak attack damage to immune creatures makes up for the loss of trap sense in all but the most trap-heavy games. And combined with Savvy Rogue, you can deal Strength damage to anything, even constructs and all those other immune creatures.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-18, 10:14 AM
Is that an alternate class feature? Lossing trapsense does not bother me, it is one less thing to forget.

Wordmiser
2008-01-19, 03:27 AM
Is that an alternate class feature? Yup. Dun nun nun nun nun nun nun nun nun, Dun nun nun nun nun nun nun nun nun, Character limits!

TheOOB
2008-01-19, 03:56 AM
Strength damage is nasty, a ray of enfeeblement followed up by a ray of exhaustion can take out most people, and those who are still standing (the fighters) are likely collapsing under the weight of their gear, unable to hit with a melee attack.

MorkaisChosen
2008-01-20, 08:02 AM
If you're continuing the character, one possible idea is to add a few Shadowdancer levels to get the Shadow Companion- flank with it so you deal extra Str damage and it's more likely to hit with its (str-damaging) attacks.

kme
2008-01-20, 09:20 AM
The crippling strike doesn't sound too good to me. To lower someones STR by 10 you need to hit him 5 times and at that point you already dealt him 25d6 dmg(at lvl 10 ) just from sneak attack. At the point that STR damage matters the enemy will already be dead (or near death ).

Person_Man
2008-01-20, 03:22 PM
The crippling strike doesn't sound too good to me. To lower someones STR by 10 you need to hit him 5 times and at that point you already dealt him 25d6 dmg(at lvl 10 ) just from sneak attack. At the point that STR damage matters the enemy will already be dead (or near death ).

Ability damage is multiplied on a crit. Sneak Attack isn't.

A few enemies have low-ish Str but high-ish Con. (Although really you should pick up Maiming Strike as well, so you're dealing Cha damage also).

And 25d6 = 87.5 average damage.

Plenty of CR 10ish+ monsters have a lot more hit points then that. And each time you hit your enemy, he's somewhat less powerful. So if you don't get in enough hits to kill him on your first try, at least he'll have a harder time hitting you.

Ability damage isn't uber. But its a great tactic to use against certain enemies.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-21, 12:42 AM
Well ok here is what is happening with my Rogue. He actually is Rogue 10/Monk 1. He is focusing on Crippling Strike. He replaces his Sneak Attack dice to gain a +2 to hit per die on each attack with Precise Strike(DR310 p69), so a +10 to hit each time. Flurry of Blows is pointless, I have TWF and Improved TWF, granting me 4 attacks a round, a possible -8 Str damage a round. My DM and I both wondered if Sneak Attack happened only on the first attack or all attacks in a round, agreeing that if a character power attacking can do it on every attack I could apply sneak attack.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-21, 01:23 AM
Question, with improved unarmed strike, gained from the Monk level, do I needed TWF or Improved TWF? With those feats I would gain extra attacks right?

kamikasei
2008-01-21, 06:43 AM
My DM and I both wondered if Sneak Attack happened only on the first attack or all attacks in a round, agreeing that if a character power attacking can do it on every attack I could apply sneak attack.

It depends on the situation. Sneak Attack applies to every single attack in a round given that the attacks are all eligible for it. If the opponent is flanked, then you can Sneak Attack on each hit. If you've just come out of an Invisibility, they're only flat-footed against the first hit, so it's the only one to get Sneak Attack (I think!). If you're in a Greater Invisibility, you get Sneak Attack on every hit. And so on. It's not specially limited beyond the requirement for the foe to be denied his Dex bonus.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-21, 09:23 AM
Ok flanking, that sounds about right. I don't believe Greater Invs is happening...

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-21, 09:45 AM
Definitely need the Vexing Flanker then. Helped my 10th level character down that Glabrezu this Sunday, could help you too.

MorkaisChosen
2008-01-21, 01:08 PM
Flurry's still useful- you can combine TWF and Flurry for another attack per turn at an extra -2 to all to-hit rolls.

TWF can be used to make an attack with each hand unarmed.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-21, 01:44 PM
So in the best possible situation, Flanking. I would get 5 attacks at 18/18/16/13/11, hitting each time doing 5d6+15 points of damage and -10 to the targets Str. A lot of enemies are finished in two rounds.

Backstory to the character is:
As a small town thief (Two levels in rogue. Neutral Evil alignment.) he was caught and sentenced to serve in a monastery. The Monks took him in and kept close watch over him. He conformed to the Monks' Ideals as best he could, becoming a part of the Order himself. But after four years serving in the order he left and went his own way. (His single level in Monk gained during this time. Also becoming Lawful Neutral.) He has sense then turned to a Neutral lifestyle of self dedication, never regretting his time served in the order, but turning back to his olden ways.

DareTheRogue
2008-01-23, 11:03 AM
so we played last night, my character entering as a skilled but poor monk. The first PC to be brought into the party on a wage basis to start. I more or less started with nothing, and being almost useless compaired to the party Druid up till the random encounter. Only myself and the party fighter were standing at the end. 1 fire giant and 4 trolls from MM5 took out everyone. But pivoting on the fighter he took 3 trolls down in 3 rounds and I took a troll in a round with 102 damage and the fire giant in 2 rounds, because of a move with a single attack of 19 damage and then a full attack for 139 damage the next round, not dropping him but having done 12 STR damage and dropping him on encumburance rules, stupid giant and those boulders.

I feel effective but after looking at combat if I hadn't moved around enough I would have been laid out early in 2 hits. I have a third of the fighters hp, and up till now no items. The fighter, also the party leader dropped a mithral shirt on me, a wand of cure light wounds, an amulet of mighty fists +5, and a ring of protection +3. I am wearing the armor due to the fact I did have to roll abilities with my DM and I have a wis of 10. But now I uped my damage and ac