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DrizztFan24
2008-01-16, 06:54 PM
Ok, so my DM (dad) is only going to allow each player (myself and my siblings) one character each. We have a druid, a dragon shaman, and me. I am the oldest at 17 and the next oldest is 13, then 9. So, we have no offensive arcane powers and no trapfiding abilities. So i was thinking i would be a beguiler and multiclass into an assassin because i think it would be fun. The Beguiler (PHBII) provides illusions and enchantment. Or should i go Monk/wizard gestalt? with a level in beguiler for trapfinding?

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-16, 06:59 PM
Please, no monk!

If you can go Gestalt, it would seem obvious - go for a wizard//rogue. If not, just a plain wizard.
Also, you mentioned using a wizard for "offensive power". If you meant through spells such as Fireball and similar spells, remember that straight out blasting isn't always the best option.

marjan
2008-01-16, 07:00 PM
Beguiler is better option IMO. I would stay away from assassin (it lacks sinergy with beguiler) if I were you but there's nothing stopping you to take it.
If you want assassin-like character I would recommend something like this:
rogue1/illusionist4/unseen seer X (CM).
Just switch staff from US from divination to illusion and you have stealthy character who casts spells and has sneak attack.

DrizztFan24
2008-01-16, 07:09 PM
the wizard/monk i thought might work because of the higher HD and go illusionist so that we can trick our way through some of the fights. Our DM likes to boost the already higher CR encounters.
yea i only have Complete Arcane, Complete Scoundrel, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, and the Core books

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-16, 07:14 PM
Please, no monk!

If you can go Gestalt, it would seem obvious - go for a wizard//rogue. If not, just a plain wizard.
Also, you mentioned using a wizard for "offensive power". If you meant through spells such as Fireball and similar spells, remember that straight out blasting isn't always the best option.

Quiet you. He's young. Don't destroy the iconic wizard for him just yet.

I find it odd that you mention that he's 'only' going to allow you one character each, Drizztclone#1,000,000,042.

I have plenty of suggestions, but before I give any of them I want to ask about your mention of gestalt. Does everyone have the option of doing that? In my experience, gestalt and non-gestalt characters don't mix all that well.

In the group I'm DMing currently, each player created their character in a vacuum. Nobody knew what the other characters were at all. It turned out to be quite fun. The entire party was made up of arcane casters! While they lack the 'front-line' power, they make up for it in ingenuity. It really gave everyone a chance to use their abilities creatively.

We have a similar situation in the group I'm currently playing in. We have no arcane spellcasters. We have a warblade, two fighters and a cleric. I'm actually enjoying this extremely. We have a much grittier fantasy feel to the game. Arcane magic for us is something to be feared, and even the mention of a wizard sets us to making plans.

Anyhow, in my experience, dragon shaman are quite durable, so you have the meat shield ready, and backup as well as potential heals from the druid. If you want offensive arcane power, I recommend Warmage. I think it'll fit in well with your party, you'll be able to offset the small party size by the increased durability of a warmage, and you'll get to hurl level 0 spells that can actually kill people.

If that doesn't float your boat, a rogue is handy for just about everything. You can always pump up your decipher script and UMD skills for a touch of the arcane.

Depending on how high a level you're planning to get, warlocks can be fun. You do get a little tired of saying 'eldrich blast' over and over though.

Glyde
2008-01-16, 07:18 PM
Quiet you. He's young. Don't destroy the iconic wizard for him just yet.





He's 17, that's not too young. *cough* >_>

My three man party was a Wizard, Rogue and Ranger. It was second edition though. I would suggest you start as a rogue, then take some levels in wizard for sneak attack spells if your dad allows it.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-16, 07:21 PM
He's 17, that's not too young. *cough* >_>

My three man party was a Wizard, Rogue and Ranger. It was second edition though. I would suggest you start as a rogue, then take some levels in wizard for sneak attack spells if your dad allows it.

In this case, young mean innocent.

But regardless, I won't let you play monk!! Its a horrible class!!

If you only want to go up to something though and say "I attack it with my dark beam of awesome" then go for the Warlock, as was mentioned.
They're a lot of fun to play, and have unlimited spells (or invocations, in this case).

marjan
2008-01-16, 07:22 PM
Monk in gestalt is actually pretty good idea to mix up with wizard or sorceror. It provides great saves, d8 HD, 4+int skill points, better base attack. If you mix it up with sorc you can take Ascetic Mage to add charisma istead of wisdom to AC, and if you take wizard you take Carmendine Monk for the same effect but for int.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-16, 07:27 PM
Then again, you can never go wrong with adding Favoured Soul levels.

Yes, I think Favoured Souls are awesome. :smallamused:

And it gives you that same saves, same BAB, etc. . .

marjan
2008-01-16, 07:29 PM
Then again, you can never go wrong with adding Favoured Soul levels.

Yes, I think Favoured Souls are awesome. :smallamused:

And it gives you that same saves, same BAB, etc. . .

With Sorc yes. With wiz not so much - more MAD, less skill points.

Ganurath
2008-01-16, 07:38 PM
So... You want trapfinding, and offensive ability with a magic flair? I'd go with Wizard/Rogue working toward Arcane Trickster for that, but if you can get Complete Adventurer a Spellthief really fits the bill fluidly.

If you're concern is traps, though... a Warlock can set traps off safely using Summon Swarm, if he can direct the swarm to scout ahead, tripping traps and disrupting enemies.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 08:02 PM
At one point I had considered a build of something like spellthief1/wizard4?/daggerspell mage 3?/arcane trickster 10, but I hadn't worked out the kinks in my head. Also, it lost approx 2 caster levels, which is always hard. Master spellthief feat gave it the ability to steal spells though, but I wasn't sure if it'd allow stealing level 3's or level 9's, as it's not clear whether the PrC's are arcane caster classes.

With gestalt, you have many more options available. A small gestalt dip into monk (never give up spellcasting progression if you don't have to) followed by rogue, and enlightened fist later might be interesting:
rogue 1/monk 1/rogue4/enlightened fist 10//sorc 6/rogue10
might be interesting with ascetic mage and ascetic rogue combined with arcane strike later. Full unarmed strike damage, decent sneak attack, and sorceror spellcasting (which is still 1 level delayed unfortunately).

marjan
2008-01-16, 08:15 PM
At one point I had considered a build of something like spellthief1/wizard4?/daggerspell mage 3?/arcane trickster 10

Better go with Unseen Seer than Arcane Trickster. US has better class abilities and better BAB.



rogue 1/monk 1/rogue4/enlightened fist 10//sorc 6/rogue10


I don't this build is legal. You have same class on both sides.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 08:19 PM
But at different times. Can't you go fighter 5/barb5//barb5/fighter5?

I may have it slightly off in the earlier post, I couldn't recall the exact build I had in mind, so the required levels may be off by 1 or 2.

marjan
2008-01-16, 08:32 PM
But at different times. Can't you go fighter 5/barb5//barb5/fighter5?

I may have it slightly off in the earlier post, I couldn't recall the exact build I had in mind, so the required levels may be off by 1 or 2.

Hmm, I cannot find anything that says it is illegal. I was pretty sure it was.

EDIT: Anyway F.L. what does daggerspell mage get you in the other build.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 08:35 PM
The daggerspell mage fluff isn't that important. What is important is:

+1d6 more sneak attack (for arcane trickster)
9/10 spell levels (not on l.1 though...)

marjan
2008-01-16, 08:43 PM
The daggerspell mage fluff isn't that important. What is important is:

+1d6 more sneak attack (for arcane trickster)
9/10 spell levels (not on l.1 though...)

Unseen Seer1 gets +1d6 sneak attack, lighter requirements and no CL loss, so it's a faster and better route if that is all that matters.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 08:49 PM
Yeah, essentially. US is superior, you'll never take enough DM to matter, I think. And the requirements for DM are distractin, 2WF, WF:Dagger.

Wish I'd thought of it.

marjan
2008-01-16, 09:02 PM
DrizztFan24, if you decide dipping rogue or something similar for trapfinding consider being a human or changeling (RAW changelings won't qualify for it but it makes sense) and taking Able Learner feat.

Wordmiser
2008-01-16, 09:50 PM
you'll never take enough DM to matter, I think.That first Daggerspell Mage level does matter, though. You're losing caster levels for the sake of losing caster levels.

And why Spellthief? Rogue is better in all respects (yes, even with Master Spellthief).


Master spellthief feat gave it the ability to steal spells though, but I wasn't sure if it'd allow stealing level 3's or level 9's, as it's not clear whether the PrC's are arcane caster classes.I think that it's safe to assume that you're only "stealing" 3rd level spells. You can't recast them, though, because you don't have enough Spellthief levels to cast any more than 1st level spells.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 10:12 PM
That first Daggerspell Mage level does matter, though. You're losing caster levels for the sake of losing caster levels.

And why Spellthief? Rogue is better in all respects (yes, even with Master Spellthief).

I think that it's safe to assume that you're only "stealing" 3rd level spells. You can't recast them, though, because you don't have enough Spellthief levels to cast any more than 1st level spells.

Yeah, DM is much worse than US. The first level matters with respect to spellcasting, and you don't take enough levels in DM for it's later abilities (which aren't that great anyway) to matter.

As for spellthief, if the PrC's counted as arcane caster levels, you could steal and cast 9th level spells. If they're not caster levels, you can steal and cast 3rd level spells, as that's what the steal spell ability and master spelltheif feat do. In addition, you have a 20th level caster level with 19th level spells per day. And you can cast spells in light armor. And you still get the +1d6 sneak and trapfinding of a l.1 rogue, it's just you have +2 will save instead of +2 reflex.

Wordmiser
2008-01-16, 10:27 PM
As for spellthief, if the PrC's counted as arcane caster levels, you could steal and cast 9th level spells. If they're not caster levels, you can steal and cast 3rd level spells, as that's what the steal spell ability and master spelltheif feat do. In addition, you have a 20th level caster level with 19th level spells per day. And you can cast spells in light armor. And you still get the +1d6 sneak and trapfinding of a l.1 rogue, it's just you have +2 will save instead of +2 reflex.Gah. I just realized that I took the wrong quote from the wrong person. Anyhow...
But unless you're homebrewing a power gain for Master Spellthief, you can only "hold" as may spells as you have Spellthief levels. This doesn't interrupt some builds (like... I don't know... Factotum 1/Spellthief 9/Chameleon 10), but it will be a stumbling block for most.
And Unseen Seer already requires the Practiced Spellcaster feat, so the effective caster level boost doesn't particularly matter.
And Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt is what, 2-3 AC less than an equally expensive Mithril Breastplate? As a spellcaster, your defenses come from spells and mobility anyway, so I'm not sure the MS feat is worth the pay-off. And without the feat, Rogue's extra 8 skill points and slightly better skill list would push it ahead in overall usefulness.

DrizztFan24
2008-01-16, 10:44 PM
To answer one of the earlier questions, everyone has access to gestalt classes, but i am the only using one, the other two think its too complicated so they are sticking to the druid and dragon shaman

So it looks like spellthief is out, daggermage is out, gestalt monk is not so good, and unseen seer seems to be the best option at this point? I'm trying not to go with a whole bunch of different levels or my DM with slap on the 20% EXP penalty faster than you can say "energy drain me".

EDIT:
and who said monks suck? I just got finished playing one, she could hit you for more damage than the other fighters in the party more times. Although, I will admit i spent a lot of feats on my drizzt clone just getting his attack bonuses back up...

F.L.
2008-01-16, 10:47 PM
Well, there is also the beguiler brought up earlier.

(sorry for being the main source of confusion in this thread)

Wordmiser
2008-01-16, 10:57 PM
everyone has access to gestalt classes, but i am the only using one, the other two think its too complicated so they are sticking to the druid and dragon shamanIf they aren't using Gestalt, you probably oughtn't either. Especially if you're the type to read this sort of message board (or, heaven forbit, the CharOps boards) and the others aren't.

And you have access to the PHB2, yes? That isn't normally considered "Core," but you were mentioning the Beguiler.

I would keep it simple: Rogue 5/Assassin 10/Rogue 5 or Beguiler 20 would do what you want quite well.

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarp Sniper 4/Arcane Trickster 10 will probably the build to shoot for, though. Remember that your Familiar gets your skill ranks and that you can sneak attack (and sudden strike) with any damage-dealing spell which requires an attack roll.

[edit:]

and who said monks suck? I just got finished playing one, she could hit you for more damage than the other fighters in the party more times. Although, I will admit i spent a lot of feats on my drizzt clone just getting his attack bonuses back up...If you were out-damaging anyone, they were doing something very wrong. Monks are good at knocking enemies out with Stunning Fist, but that's the only source for offensive damage that they have. Nobody who supports Monks as being a balanced class, even, will ever cite damage as one of their strengths.

marjan
2008-01-16, 10:58 PM
To answer one of the earlier questions, everyone has access to gestalt classes, but i am the only using one, the other two think its too complicated so they are sticking to the druid and dragon shaman


In that case you should also avoid gestalt. If the monk outdamaged fighter it is clear that you don't optimize much, if at all. Gestalted character will be to powerful compared to Dragon Shaman and probably compared to druid, too.

DrizztFan24
2008-01-16, 11:00 PM
yea, by core i meant the PHB3.5, DM guide, and MM3.5
well with the beguiler people seemed to drop that faster than the daggermage so i figured that i probably shouldn't use it

SilentNight
2008-01-16, 11:03 PM
You may want to look into the chameleon from Races of Destiny if you have it due to the fact that it is probably the most versatile class in the game.

marjan
2008-01-16, 11:06 PM
yea, by core i meant the PHB3.5, DM guide, and MM3.5
well with the beguiler people seemed to drop that faster than the daggermage so i figured that i probably shouldn't use it

Beguiler is pretty good option. The main reason we didn't discuss it much is that it is not best-suited for multiclassing.

So Beguiler 20, or Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer10/Arcane Trickster4/Wizard+1. Feel free to change US levels with AT or Spellwarp Sniper as you wish, but I think US is your best option.

You won't incur any penalty with the build if you have wizard or rogue as favored class since PrCs don't count toward multiclass penalty.

Wordmiser
2008-01-16, 11:11 PM
yea, by core i meant the PHB3.5, DM guide, and MM3.5
well with the beguiler people seemed to drop that faster than the daggermage so i figured that i probably shouldn't use itIn that case you don't have access to the Beguiler... Whatever.

But the Beguiler's a great class, there's just not much to say about it--it's one of the most self-contained classes around.


So Beguiler 20, or Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer10/Arcane Trickster4/Wizard+1. Feel free to change US levels with AT or Spellwarp Sniper as you wish, but I think US is your best option. I only suggested Spellwarp Sniper because Unseen Seer isn't in any of his sources:

yea i only have Complete Arcane, Complete Scoundrel, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, and the Core books