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The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-01-17, 10:22 PM
Hey all

I've got a 6th level LG male human fighter who's about to hit level 7 in an ongoing campaign. My husband fully encourages me to go straight fighter, since we're in a fighter-heavy, low-magic campaign. I'm inclined to do that, but I'm also trying to find a PrC. I'm looking for something with full BAB progression that's appropriate for a good-aligned (possibly soon to be exalted) character.

Here's my current character sheet:


Marcus of Mosstone Ftr6: Size M (6 ft., 7 in. tall, weight 234 lbs.); HD 6d10+12; hp 64; Init +3 (+3 Dex); Spd 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor); AC 17 (+2 Dex, +5 chain-mail); +11/+6 melee falchion (2d6+6 19-20/x2 crit) or +11/+6 melee great sword (2d6+6 19-20/x2 crit) or +11/+6 melee master work bastard sword (1d10+6 19-20/x2 crit), or+9/+4 ranged longbow (1d8 20/x3 crit); SV Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +5; AL LG; Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 14.

Languages Spoken: Middle Common, Elven, Dwarven, Giant.
Languages Read: Middle Common, Elven.

Skills: Climb +4 (+4 Str, +5 ranks, -5 armor check penalty), Craft (Writing) +10 (+4 Int, +6 rank), Craft (Weapon-Smithing) +6 (+4 Int, +2 rank), Diplomacy +3 (+2 Cha, +1.5 ranks), Handle Animal +8 (+2 Cha, +6 ranks), Hide -2 (+3 Dex, -5 armor check penalty), Jump +4 (+4 Str, +5 ranks, -5 armor check penalty), Knowledge (history) +5 (+4 Int, +1 rank), Knowledge (religion) +6 (+4 Int, +2 ranks) Listen +4 (+2 Wis, +2 ranks), Move Silently -2 (+3 Dex, -5 armor check penalty), Read/Write (Elven), Read/Write (Middle Common), Ride +11 (+3 Dex, +6 ranks, +2 synergy [Handle Animal] ), Search +4 (+3 Int, +1 rank), Sense Motive +3 (+2 Wis, +1.5 ranks), Spot +4 (+2 Wis, +2 ranks), Swim +0 (+4 Str, +6 ranks, -10 armor check penalty.)

Feats: Weapon Focus (great sword [falchion]), Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.

Possessions: 91 gold pieces, journal of poetry, The History of the Hounds of DuVray, pen, ink, sack of sling bullets, sling, belt pouch, quarterstaff, travelers' clothes chain mail (from mercenary company), short sword (from mercenary company), heavy steel shield (from mercenary company), magic mask. Total weight 71 lbs.

My DM has ruled that the falchion is statistically the same as a greatsword, hence the curiousness of my weapon focus feat. I'd like to make use of my high Intelligence score too, but I'm loathe to give up my march toward Weapon Supremacy in order to take a class like Duskblade (doubly so because there's no good RP reason for me to take Duskblade anyway.) We're also waaay below wealth-by-level, me more so than the others simply because I'm sending half my pay as a member of a mercenary company to pay for the care and upkeep of a catatonic child. My party currently consists of an exalted paladin, an exalted ranger and a druid and we have a total of six magic items between the four of us. The likelihood of me acquiring a magic item in the near future is limited. I'm also considering taking the Ancestral Relic feat.

Anyway, I need you guys to help pimp my fighter. Help me make him the best that he can be with what we currently have to work with.

-Blue

Kristoss
2008-01-17, 10:37 PM
If you want help please tell us the books you have access to?
Don't forget to acquire weapon supremacy you are required to be fighter level 18.
If you have tome of battle I would suggest the warblade they count as being a fighter - 2 levels for purposes of gaining fighter only feat. For example a fighter6/warblade4 could acquire Greater weapon focus.
Another great thing about the warblade is that they can re-align their martial feats to other weapons.

Hope that helped a bit.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-01-17, 10:48 PM
If you want help please tell us the books you have access to?
Don't forget to acquire weapon supremacy you are required to be fighter level 18.
If you have tome of battle I would suggest the warblade they count as being a fighter - 2 levels for purposes of gaining fighter only feat. For example a fighter6/warblade4 could acquire Greater weapon focus.
Another great thing about the warblade is that they can re-align their martial feats to other weapons.

Hope that helped a bit.

I have pretty much every WotC book available. I don't personally on the Tome of Battle, but the DM does. I don't have all my books on hand, however. Some of them still live with my mother.

Warblade might be interesting. The paladin started off as a warblade, died and was "remade" as a paladin by a god of the sea. I don't know how I'd transition, since the paladin has only vague memories of his previous existence and thus couldn't teach me. He's not currently getting on well with his old order either. The ability to apply my focus feats to various weapons isn't particularly handy, unfortunately, because once I get my hands on my falchion again (it was stolen, long story there) that's going to be the only weapon I use, save for when ranged combat is necessary.

Thanks for responding :)

-Blue

Chronicled
2008-01-18, 12:07 AM
If you could get the ranks in Concentration and Diplomacy, you're otherwise set to enter the Kensai class from Complete Warrior. It's got cleric BAB, but can spend XP to enchant a signature weapon to have a bonus equal to their Kensai level--very handy in a low-magic campaign where you already plan to use a specific weapon. You can also use a move action to get a +8 unnamed bonus to strength (which helps make up for the lost BAB), make Concentration checks instead of Reflex saves, a d10 HD, 4+Int skill points per level, a good Will save instead of Fortitude (which will round out your saves), and a few other nice things. It's not the best option out there, even though it looks really strong at first--if the DM thinks it's overpowered, mention the roleplaying prerequisites that both mesh well with your character, and give him plenty of DM options (he ought to love this last part).

You'd have to spend a level or 2 getting the prerequisites, but the War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) from the Expanded Psionics Handbook is a nice PrC. You'd get a d10 HD, full BAB, some manifesting, and some nice abilities.

Adding levels of Tome of Battle classes is almost never a bad thing. Crusader or Warblade would be quite good.

Brawls
2008-01-18, 01:08 AM
I find it humorous that the first two classes that sprang to mind were Warblade for the Intelligence synergy and Kensei for the weapon enhancement and reflex save.

I think if you read through Warblade, you will be very pleasantly suprised. Wizards has the class up on their site, but there site appears to be down currently. Maybe someone can post the url for you for later.

Brawls

Chronicled
2008-01-18, 01:26 AM
The aforementioned URL: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2

tyckspoon
2008-01-18, 01:30 AM
If you could get the ranks in Concentration and Diplomacy, you're otherwise set to enter the Kensai class from Complete Warrior.

Concentration and Diplomacy just happen to be class skills for the Warblade, even. And it's a 4/level skill points class, so with a decent Intelligence bonus you should be able to meet Kensai's skill requirements within two or three levels. Warblade into Kensai would be a fairly sound plan. So would Warblade into Warblade, for that matter, assuming you can find a way to satisfy any RPing requirements your DM might desire to impose.

How set are you on getting to Weapon Supremacy, Sorceress? You probably won't be able to get it with any significant deviation from straight Fighter.. however, it sounds like you're in just about the worst possible situation in which to be a straight Fighter, and it's going to be a long trip to level 18 to claim your prize. In the immediate term, you'll want (and sooner rather than later really need) something to help make up for not having the equipment the default game expects you to have. Getting maneuvers from Warblade would help do that, as would going into Kensai and making your own magic weapon out of your favored falchion (basically the same thing as the Ancestral Relic feat, I believe, but Kensai probably has a better exchange ratio.) The only thing more levels of Fighter gives you is extra feats, which you already have a good number of, and progression toward an eventual good feat. Personally, I don't find that enough of a goal to give up all the fun and immediately useful things you could acquire by multiclassing.

Chronicled
2008-01-18, 01:51 AM
How set are you on getting to Weapon Supremacy, Sorceress? You probably won't be able to get it with any significant deviation from straight Fighter.. however, it sounds like you're in just about the worst possible situation in which to be a straight Fighter, and it's going to be a long trip to level 18 to claim your prize. In the immediate term, you'll want (and sooner rather than later really need) something to help make up for not having the equipment the default game expects you to have. Getting maneuvers from Warblade would help do that, as would going into Kensai and making your own magic weapon out of your favored falchion (basically the same thing as the Ancestral Relic feat, I believe, but Kensai probably has a better exchange ratio.) The only thing more levels of Fighter gives you is extra feats, which you already have a good number of, and progression toward an eventual good feat. Personally, I don't find that enough of a goal to give up all the fun and immediately useful things you could acquire by multiclassing.

Sound advice.

For getting Weapon Supremacy, it'd be best to go Warblade. 6 levels of Fighter are the most you'll want to take of the class; Warblade levels count for Fighter levels (while at a penalty), so you could go Warblade for a while, then toss a Fighter level back in (if needed) to snag Weapon Supremacy. Warblade levels will let you continue to contribute at higher levels.

Kensai not only has a better exchange ratio (instead of sacrificing treasure, which you're not getting anyways, you sacrifice a pittance of XP), but arguably allows you to change the enhancements on your weapon on a fairly short notice by performing the enhancement ceremony again. If you go this route, some of the best weapon enhancements are: Coup de Grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#coupdeGrace), Soulbreaker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#soulbreaker), Magebane (from Complete Arcane), Lucky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#lucky), Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#spellStoring) (Dispel Magic and Inflict Serious Wounds are nice spell choices for your party spellcasters to store in the weapon), Holy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy), Brilliant Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy), and if you have a lot of enhancements that trigger on a critical hit (like several of the above), Keen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#keen). Mix and match according to what fits your character.

Wordmiser
2008-01-19, 03:33 AM
I don't know how I'd transition, since the paladin has only vague memories of his previous existence and thus couldn't teach me.Your Fighter's combat experience has made him more competent in melee combat. Voila. That's really all there is to it--there aren't any supernatural abilities to muck anything up.

If actually plan to near epic levels and if you're attached to the idea of Weapon Supremacy, Fighter 6/Warblade 12/Fighter 2 gets 8th level maneuvers and qualifies quite neatly.

TheOOB
2008-01-19, 03:43 AM
Generally speaking, the only reason to play a fighter is because you don't have ToB, the warblade was pretty much made to replace the fighter, and it does so very well with no magic involved (though some of the higher level maneuvers would require superhuman abilities, but then again, numerically anything past level 5 is super human anyways.)

As for feats, combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, stand still, short haft/exotic weapon prof(spiked chain), karmic strike, and robiler's gambit are all great feats that improve your ability to keep foes at bay. You also want to invest in a suit mithral full plate as soon as possible. It's quite possibly the best base armor, and you want to get it before you spend too much enchanting some other armor that you'll just get rid of later.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-01-19, 10:52 PM
Generally speaking, the only reason to play a fighter is because you don't have ToB, the warblade was pretty much made to replace the fighter, and it does so very well with no magic involved (though some of the higher level maneuvers would require superhuman abilities, but then again, numerically anything past level 5 is super human anyways.)

As for feats, combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, stand still, short haft/exotic weapon prof(spiked chain), karmic strike, and robiler's gambit are all great feats that improve your ability to keep foes at bay. You also want to invest in a suit mithral full plate as soon as possible. It's quite possibly the best base armor, and you want to get it before you spend too much enchanting some other armor that you'll just get rid of later.

You say invest in a suit of mithral full-plate, but considering that our rewards for our last mission as 150 gp apiece, bringing me up to a total of 241 GP, realistically, I'd actually be taking out a mortgage at a bank in order to finance the acquisition. Never mind the fact that finding someone who can work a suit of mithral full-plate is going to be a task in and of itself. For the time being I'm actually thinking of ditching half my chain suit and going chain shirt instead. I'll have the same total AC, +4 Armor +3 Dex, but I'll have 10' more movement each round and less of an armor check penalty. Less weight too.

Kensai doesn't sound like a bad idea, nor does Warblade into Kensai. Fighter/Warblade might work well too. War Mind looks intriguing as well. Thanks for all the in-put.

-Blue

Quietus
2008-01-19, 11:04 PM
You say invest in a suit of mithral full-plate, but considering that our rewards for our last mission as 150 gp apiece, bringing me up to a total of 241 GP, realistically, I'd actually be taking out a mortgage at a bank in order to finance the acquisition. Never mind the fact that finding someone who can work a suit of mithral full-plate is going to be a task in and of itself. For the time being I'm actually thinking of ditching half my chain suit and going chain shirt instead. I'll have the same total AC, +4 Armor +3 Dex, but I'll have 10' more movement each round and less of an armor check penalty. Less weight too.

Kensai doesn't sound like a bad idea, nor does Warblade into Kensai. Fighter/Warblade might work well too. War Mind looks intriguing as well. Thanks for all the in-put.

-Blue


For bonus points, you could sleep in the chain shirt at no penalty.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-20, 11:48 AM
Hi Blue,

sounds like well-built character in an interesting campaign.

I would suggest not a prestige class, but one level in another base class: barbarian. Think on it:
- one level barbarian would give you rage, which apparently is very good for your power attack tactics and provides you with a will save boost for those rare (in magic-low campaign, at least) moments for a will save.
- you would get a movement enhancement. Replace your chain mail with chain shirt (nets you AC 17 still, your AC above is one too low) and all of a sudden you move with 40ft. This will be highly valuable for extending your charge range and your movement ability around the battlefield to use spring attack.
- you get 2 more skill points (for 8 total) from barbarian. Put those into listen and you will reduce the risk of being surprised substantially, and you will also be able to fight quite well in darkness/without light (get maybe blind-fight lateron)
- with your current money, you could weaponsmith yourself for 1/3 price a two-handed sword plus maybe a reach weapon (priceless for whirlwind attack). If your DM allows, maybe a shafted spear or such with which you threaten 5ft and 10ft away foes.
- TheOOB already mentioned good further feats to take with your future fighter levels

RPwise, think about it as if the character underwent some kind of sickness first (considering how the warblade was turned into a paladin in your group, much more mundane). Then, your fighter will become some kind of poet/author with strange raging fits. You do not necessarily need to BE culturally a barbarian to raise one level in barbarian after your 1st level (see Belkar...)

After two barbarian levels (get 2nd one as well for that nice uncanny dodge ability) and then remain fighter for getting weapon supremacy by level 20.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-20, 12:09 PM
PS: you could also pump up your weaponsmithing skill with going barbarian in the 7th level
Raise it to 10 ranks, +4 INT, get 50gp masterwork toolset and 2 apprentices (+20 total bonus). Now you can produce your own masterwork weapons at 1/3 costs. For more gold, ask the other party members in return for getting them masterwork weapons, too. So yoi could simply re-forge your lost falchion.
PPS: what is the magic mask for? Is it giving bonuses to intimidate? In any case, you might consider raising the intimidate skill in case any of your party members has access to some "saved, but shaken" spell. Combines greatly to a no-save-frighten(flee) effect.

- Giacomo

Albonor
2008-01-20, 12:32 PM
I think barbarian is out since the character is LG...

If the campaign permits it, as well as the concept, there is always a falchion-swinging Dervish, if you are willing to invest ;a lot of your skill points into perform(dance)...

Fawsto
2008-01-20, 12:47 PM
Fighter 6, Warblade6, Kensai 8. You are way to go to be the best swordsman that ever lived in your scenario.

Hell out of feats that you use to kick the ass of several enemies at once (whirlwind), combat manouvers when you need one-o-one toe-to-toe melee battle against a single foe and a uber prestige class where you can be the party's face (Ki projection) and the primary badass fighter due to the + 8 item that no other NPC or PJ can ever aford to have without spending their whole economies in a single weapon. Also, the Vow of Service is something very nice to roleplay. I like it. Oh yeah... Boost Concentration and Constitution and go for Diamond Mind school while in Warblade, so you can get the best of the Kensai and the Best of the Warblade Maxing a single skill. One word: Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice!

Since you are not a Paladin, magic expansion is not needed, so Kensai is good for you. Also recomend tha the Pally in your group go to Crusader after and them to Fist of Raziel if he want's Smite Evil goodies that can obliterate almost any evil foe if he chooses the chraging smite variant.

Now, if you want to go down to the "I am REALLY BADASS". Go for Fighter 6, Barbarian 4, Frenzied Berserker 10, but chose the feat Righteous Wrath, so you can get the Rage/Frenzy benefits and still stay on your mind. Also you can shaken an enemy per hit. Pretty cool. This is less dependent on feats, but you can always find something out there to buff this build. Also, just set your aligment to Neutral Good so you can be a Barb and Later to Chaotic so you ca go FB.

Telok
2008-01-20, 03:25 PM
Warblade is a good suggestion. A very good suggestion.

Another option is a level or two of Psychic Warrior and/or War Mind. If you're set on 18 levels of fighter then two levels of PsyWar will lose you one BaB, gain a feat (lose one F bonus feat, gain two PW bonus feats, net gain one feat), 4 power points, and two powers. Call Weaponry and Force Screen would be your best bets, wide applications and good durations at low manifester levels.

If you aren't married to Weapons Supremacy (a nice feat but a long road to reach it) you could take two levels of PsyWar and two levels of War Mind. That keeps you even on bonus feats, loses one BaB, 12 power points and 4 first level powers. Then if you're comfortable leaving fighter take the Slayer PrC to advance powers and martial prowess. The downside to that is giving up all those nice fighter bonus feats.

It's a hard choice, Warblade/Kensai or PsyWar/War Mind, and good either way you go. It'll depend on your game and character.

Wordmiser
2008-01-21, 01:39 AM
If you do go the Fighter/Warblade/Kensai route, be sure to stagger the levels along the lines of Kensai 2/Warblade 1/Kensai 2/Warblade 1... This gives you access to your maneuvers at all levels, but keeps them advancing with your character's progression.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-21, 07:03 PM
The Warblade hyper link was already posted so here's one for manuevers since you have access to the ToB:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

UserClone
2008-01-21, 08:01 PM
I don't see anything wrong with Anointed Knight, if you were thinking about the Exalted-type thing, anyways...'cept maybe the skill prereqs.:smallfrown:

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-01-21, 10:40 PM
I don't see anything wrong with Anointed Knight, if you were thinking about the Exalted-type thing, anyways...'cept maybe the skill prereqs.:smallfrown:

Yeah, I considerd that class too. It didn't really appeal to me. Mine husbad dearest has opined that Kensai is to the Fighter class, what Archmage is to the Wizard class, so I'm definitely going that direction. All the suggestions have been very helpful though.


-Blue

Chronicled
2008-01-21, 10:55 PM
Yeah, I considered that class too. It didn't really appeal to me. Mine husband dearest has opined that Kensai is to the Fighter class, what Archmage is to the Wizard class, so I'm definitely going that direction. All the suggestions have been very helpful though.


-Blue

Thanks for the update on what you're doing with it. :smallsmile:

Fawsto
2008-01-22, 04:46 PM
I've been all and around with the Kensai class in Meleers. Although it can be a badass class for those Archer types, I really see he shining on the frontlines swinging a + 5 Keen Shoking Burst + anything Adamantine Scimitar/Longsword and cuting heads while the "sparks of a thunderstorm" arise from his blade. Epic? Pehaps... Badass? CERTAINLY.

I am a fan of this PrC. If you are making your mind right now, listen to your husband, me and any other forum members taht are pointing the good parts of beig a kensai. The chalenge of the Vow of Service is a cheap price to pay for the awesome PrC.