Is miko coming back? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

FoE

2008-01-18, 12:45 AM

That was in the commentary of one of the books. I have a feeling that Rich changed his mind on that score. 464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) and the last row of 465 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) both seem to be driving home the point that Miko is gone, and not coming back. She ran her course, and any future appearances would just be retreading the same ground: Miko jumps out of the shadows, swords drawn and tries to carve the Order up into tiny pieces. She's either killed or driven off to lick her wounds and pop up again later. Unlike the other recurring villains, like Xykon or Nale, there isn't much to vary (Xykon will keep looking for the gates, changing the circumstances in which he's encountered, and Nale will come up with some new, byzantine plot to keep him interesting). Miko just charges and attacks. Even if she went explicitly Evil, she'd still do the same thing, just with a new color scheme. And redeeming her would require a lot of screentime. It'd practically be a spinoff comic.

I completely and utterly agree with you, Grey Watcher, though I could in theory see something like this happening (though perhaps it could feature better dialogue than I'm capable of writing).

(After seeing his rotting corpse) :roy: Damn it. Guess I'm not getting resurrected.

:miko: (walks up to Roy) Hi Roy.

:roy: YOU?! What the hell are you doing here?!

:miko: I died destroying Lord Soon's gate.

:roy: Oh. Well, get the hell out of here, I have nothing to say to you.

:miko: You don't understand. I realize the error of my ways. It took dying to set me straight. (Long explanation follows that I don't have the patience to write now)

:roy: I find it hard to believe that Miko Miyazaki would turn over a new leaf.

:miko: Need proof? Well let me show you. (Smooch)

(Hot make-out session and bow chicka wow-wow ensues)

(Month passes, Roy and Miko are in bed together)

:roy: Wow. I guess being dead isn't so bad after all.

Voice from beyond — Roy ... We need you ... Come back ...

:roy: ****. I guess I'm needed. I can't believe I have to say goodbye like this ... or that I'll actually miss you.

:miko: Goodbye Roy. And ... I'm sorry for everything.

Remember, she has had a few months to think about things, so it's theoretically possible that she could have realized the error of her ways.

That said, I hope Miko never comes back. She served her purpose.

SlightlyEvil

2008-01-18, 01:31 AM

I could see Miko returning, perhaps as a ghost rather than being resurrected, and struggling with the idea that she's not always right. In her death scene, even though Soon lectures her on that, she never seems to really believe that she ever did anything wrong. The inner conflict between her own arrogance and the results of her actions could be quite interesting.

Also, I think that when the OP said "First post", he meant that it was his first time posting on the forums at all.

rgoodfellow

2008-01-18, 01:44 AM

When Roy was around Miko, there were many laughs on my part.

"It's like you've got that ability monks have where they can jump as far as they want, only for you it works on conclusions"

"Honey we're out of milke. Clearly the gods want me to kill you."

"I would not touch your skinny up tight ass with a standard issue ten foot pole."

Not exact quotes, I'm going off memory here. Plus, I'm only a halfing...

Verruckt

2008-01-18, 02:19 AM

personally i just hope she doesn't come back as anything more than an unintelligent undead, anything else would ruin the touching bottom panels of 464
"I can live with that"

factotum

2008-01-18, 03:06 AM

She could possibly appear in the afterlife without ruining her death scene (especially if Windstriker appeared as well), but I can't see her getting resurrected now. For a start, who knows where her body is? Without it we're talking a True Resurrection spell, and who's going to waste that sort of time and money on Miko?

Paragon Badger

2008-01-18, 03:14 AM

She was a great character, but as Face of Evil said, she's served her purpose in the greater scheme of things- and bringing her back would weaken the story. :-P

David Argall

2008-01-18, 03:50 AM

She ran her course, and any future appearances would just be retreading the same ground: Miko jumps out of the shadows, swords drawn and tries to carve the Order up into tiny pieces.

Now think about it. When did Miko do anything of the sort? She is completely direct and open. She would not jump out of the shadows. Instead, she would have a bondfire blazing and openly state she was going to carve them up.

Unlike the other recurring villains, like Xykon or Nale, there isn't much to vary (Xykon will keep looking for the gates, changing the circumstances in which he's encountered, and Nale will come up with some new, byzantine plot to keep him interesting). Miko just charges and attacks.
Here too you are misunderstanding what makes Miko a useful character. She is not there to attack the party for the most part, but to "assist" them. She is a antagonistic protaganist, not an antagonist. If she were to come back into the comic, she would be on the side of Good, but would somehow get in the party's way. This can happen in a large variety of ways and so she is far from an exhausted character.

who is going to go out of their way to find and identify Miko's skeleton, and then pay the resurrection price to bring her back.

No one in OOTS land wants her back that badly.

Unimportant. We are in soap opera land here. That means we can use any of a zillion cheap tricks to get her back. The deva judging her case found it too confusing and kicked her back to the mortal realm to gain or lose virtue so she won't be so hard to judge. As the best paladin, and one who undertook dangerous missions, Miko was the beneficiary of a Clone spell, and she will appear on stage at any time. Or ... whatever. If she is plot useful, the minor fact that nobody in the party wants her back makes zero difference.

Now as noted, whether she can be plot useful after being given such a final send-off is a much more serious question, and I fear our writer feels the answer is no.

Yeril

2008-01-18, 04:37 AM

@^ very true, In a similar situation, the half-orc from YAFGC was sent back to his body by two dietys just because they couldn't decide if he was more orc, or human, since half-orcs generaly lean to one or the other.

I personaly think, if Miko does have a redemption, it will be offscreen with miko popping up with a smite evil, followed by a few comic flash-back on how she got ressurected and redeemed.

a afterlife scene with her seems the only way to get her back in without it being too.. for lack of a better word, lame.

I would like to see Miko come back, Not for a while of course.

Mingchan

2008-01-18, 04:54 AM

I would like to see Miko back. Actually, I hated her, and her lawful ways (I'm a bit of a maverick...). But, it would be nice to see her back inside, if only to aggravate the team again.

I suppose if she made another appearance, it'd be in the afterlife, with her and her horse bumping into Roy.

TheOOB

2008-01-18, 05:05 AM

I loved miko as a character, not only was she a deconstruction of one of the most annoying D&D archtypes known to man, but she also was a good interpretation of many real world people and groups for whom zeal and fervor have lead them down the path of violence (I'd like to say she was exaggerated but there are real people like that). On both a comedic and philosophical level, she was great, not to mention that she really, more then anything else, helped to develop Roy as a character, by opposing her, someone who is also lawful good but different in so many ways, Roy was forced to think beyond stop the evil lich and become a better character for it.

FoE

2008-01-18, 05:36 AM

Bringing her back would undermine the terrific death scene Rich wrote for her. She really was kind of a tragic figure, if you think about it.

TheWarBlade

2008-01-18, 05:38 AM

One can only hope. I thought she was an extremely cool character, I mean she fights with two weapons at once! Thats just cool!

I think she will return, shes one of the most memorable characters in the strip.

Jimblee

2008-01-18, 06:12 AM

Miko was great. Theres nothing I love more than overarching corruption, particularly in Paladins. Not to mention the fantastic example of why Good characters are not always on the same side.

However, while we can perfectly see her personality arising later on in the story, it is extremely unlikely. Unlike the rest of the characters, she was linear from the start, and wholly intended to come crashing down. Watching her was like watching a story arc all in itself, one that simply wouldn't make sense to return. It would be like defeating Xykon clearly for the last time, only to have him come back, or putting the MitD back into the shadows after his climactic entrance.

Sure she can somehow be brought back, by complete chance, as a death knight, or raised by some powerful character who doesn't know who she is. But why? What would be the possible value, story-wise, for her return?

Demented

2008-01-18, 07:29 AM

Ironically, Miko feels like unfinished business.
After all, you know that Miko is never coming back... Simply because, once you've made a character go crazy, put her next to the explosion of a rift, and then have her split in two, you can't really take it back without lending utter incredibility to any death that character suffers ever again. On the other hand, the character's sendoff feels like an apology, coupled with the excessive actions of a recurring villain.

So what do you do?

Sorry, there's nothing here. I don't feel comfortable exposing that hair-brained theory to the public. :smalltongue:

But, I will say that I expect O'chul to be back, sooner or later.

Alfryd

2008-01-18, 09:50 AM

Now think about it. When did Miko do anything of the sort? She is completely direct and open. She would not jump out of the shadows. Instead, she would have a bondfire blazing and openly state she was going to carve them up.
Uhm... not entirely. She didn't really give much warning during her initial assault on the Order... her second assault on the Order... her third assault on the Order... her assault on Sabine... or Hinjo... or the Ogre chieftain...

Oh, certainly she'll give minimal warning ...in such a way as to lull her opponents into a false sense of security half the time. But hardly 'bonfires blazing'. Unless it helped her see at night. Which it probably would.

Once relatively dramatically-coherent method for putting Miko back would be if she actively cooperated with Roy in some fashion in the afterlife... but Rich's statement that she'd return also rather implies she'll stay an antagonist. So, no, I can't really see an easy way for this to happen.

ShellBullet

2008-01-18, 10:40 AM

Miko was great character and I wouldn't mind her back, because it would be intresting thing to see how she reacts as she must surely thought her life in afterlife and suddenly gets second chance to be paladin, if she comes back.
Hell she may even second guess her every action and could be seeking guidance from other character for every action she takes...
Also there is a chance that Xykon could just raise her from the dead just for the lulz.

shakes019

2008-01-18, 11:30 AM

I think Miko's story has been told, and it ended with Soon's Gate. She was interesting, but I don't believe that she should continue.

I would love to see a single panel reference to her in a summation page some time, showing her either having found peace in the afterlife, or freaking out on the processing deva handling her case.

Holammer

2008-01-18, 07:29 PM

There is plenty of possible ways Miko could return as a character. Whether she remains dead in afterlife high jinx, resurrected, corrupted into an evil form etc etc. It doesn't matter. Rich will prolly "resurrect"(pun!) the character when the time is right.
This shouldn't really require spoiler but... I could imagine Miko returning raised into an evil form (wight/mummy/vampire... whatever) as it's her only chance to return and redeem the things she did in life, and succeeding in doing so. A typical anti-hero twist maybe.

David Argall

2008-01-19, 01:42 AM

Uhm... not entirely. She didn't really give much warning during her initial assault on the Order... her second assault on the Order... her third assault on the Order... her assault on Sabine... or Hinjo... or the Ogre chieftain...
"Didn't really give much warning" means she didn't attack from the shadows, the point at issue. But look at these cases again. Can you show how she reasonably could have given more warning? She told the Order surrender or die the 1st time. The second, they had just told her they were not obeying unless she beat them up. The ogres were given time to rally every defense. How is she to blame for overconfidence on her opponents' part?
Sabine [I presume you mean Shojo]? She had just rejected the idea of jailing Shojo and accused him of death penalty crimes. What else would one expect she was leading up to? Hinjo is even more blatent. They both knew she was going thru the doorway, over his dead body if necessary, and he was not going to move.

However, while we can perfectly see her personality arising later on in the story, it is extremely unlikely. Unlike the rest of the characters, she was linear from the start, and wholly intended to come crashing down.
From what we hear of the writer's intention, Miko's role in the story took a major turn about the time the inn story was written up. Miko was supposed to be Roy's love interest for the rest of the comic [an idea that clearly has much more comic potential than the rather dull Celia-Roy affair has shown to date], but he found the results unsatisfactory and threw that line out. Miko going bonkers and getting killed seems to have been only a substitute.

Watching her was like watching a story arc all in itself, one that simply wouldn't make sense to return. It would be like defeating Xykon clearly for the last time, only to have him come back,
Well, that is what happened when they defeated him for the first time.

Sure she can somehow be brought back, by complete chance, as a death knight,
Why is there this constant nonsense of seeing Miko as death knight or blackguard? That would simply ruin the utility of the character. [I suppose she could become a part of Team Evil while attempting to aid the party, but this seems to be hard to make work]

But why? What would be the possible value, story-wise, for her return?

Look at all the Miko threads we have. That clearly says she has a tremendous value to the story no matter how nonsensical her return might be. She has, to start with, the same sort of value as the gratuitous nude scene in the movie.
And her personality is in sharp contrast to the members of the party. That makes for major joke potential. It also offers a different way to handle any situation that might come up.

Given her death, one can question whether she has a net value, or whether there is any intent to have her return, but there is huge utility to her return.

FujinAkari

2008-01-19, 03:13 AM

From what we hear of the writer's intention, Miko's role in the story took a major turn about the time the inn story was written up. Miko was supposed to be Roy's love interest for the rest of the comic [an idea that clearly has much more comic potential than the rather dull Celia-Roy affair has shown to date], but he found the results unsatisfactory and threw that line out. Miko going bonkers and getting killed seems to have been only a substitute.

You're misrepresenting your facts here :).

While it is true that the belt of gender changing was initially introduced to allow Roy to turn into a woman in order to have some espionagistic "girl-time" with Miko and get to know her better, there is absolutely no evidence that Miko was -ever- intended to be a love-interest for the entirety of the comic.

Indeed, Rich himself flatly denies this reading. His commentary in NCftPB, (the same commentary which the belt-shifted storyline comes from) explicitly states that Miko was intended to be a "recurring antagonist throughout the rest of the strip" from the moment she was introduced.

Now, I agree with your overall point, that sometimes plans change, but lets not pad our facts to the point of outright misinformation, ne? :P

Alfryd

2008-01-19, 08:49 AM

Can you show how she reasonably could have given more warning?
'Reasonable', in the sense of 'tactically expedient', or reasonable in the sense of 'better conforming to spirit of paladin code'?
In the latter case, yes, I imagine that Miko might have allowed Roy to have gotten more than two words out before launching her first assault. During her second assault, she relied on her first assault's warning still being in effect, but this is really stretching the definition of 'fair warning' to it's limits. During her third, assault, something like 'if you interfere, elf, I will be obliged to subdue you again' might have in order. I could go on, but the point is made.

Sabine [I presume you mean Shojo]?
No, I mean the time that she snapped Sabine's neck, having quite deliberately left the impression of receptiveness to her advances through delicate omission.

Yes, I'm aware that this was all very helpful- perhaps even neccesary- in order for Miko to prevail in combat, and at least half due to unwarranted assumptions on her enemies' part. But nonetheless not entirely inkeeping with the spirit of the paladin code. And thus, not 'completely direct and open', as you would have put it. She deliberately withholds pertinent information and misdirects her opponents for personal advantage. Which I would be relatively Okay with, except that Miko has also displayed a flagrant disregard for personal safety, the greater welfare, or tactical expediency when it runs counter to her pride (her 3rd assault on the Order, the MitD, her assault on Hinjo and Shojo.)

...there is absolutely no evidence that Miko was -ever- intended to be a love-interest for the entirety of the comic.
Actualy, I seem to recall one of Rich's commentaries stated that Miko was supposed to be 'this hot paladin chick that Roy is constantly trying to chat up but is completely uninterested in him.' He also states that by the time the Inn sequence rolled around it had become apparent that Roy and Miko were 'completely incompatible'. It does not, however, state that this was when Rich changed his mind on the subject. Rich is known to have had the outline of the plot roughed out far advance of any given strip, and while he may fill in details 'on the fly', I severely doubt a recurring love interest would count as anything but a major plot point.

David Argall

2008-01-19, 07:28 PM

'Reasonable', in the sense of 'tactically expedient', or reasonable in the sense of 'better conforming to spirit of paladin code'?
I see nothing in the paladin code that guarantees the opponent first whack. The opponents were warned and simply did not regard her as the threat she was.

Contrast to the behavior of the party. Roy is fine with attacking the ogres with an ambush. V attacks Miko with a spell in the throne room, again without the trace of a warning. And we have a host of cases where they can offer some degree of tactically expedient excuse.

I mean the time that she snapped Sabine's neck, having quite deliberately left the impression of receptiveness to her advances through delicate omission.
Ah yes, forgot that. But we are not really talking about the same thing here. Given the fiend's quick recovery [which seems to have been no surprise to Miko], what we have here is a "boy" hoping a girl's no didn't mean no, and the girl giving "him" physical proof she did mean no. In effect, she slapped Sabine's face and marched away.

I seem to recall one of Rich's commentaries stated that Miko was supposed to be 'this hot paladin chick that Roy is constantly trying to chat up but is completely uninterested in him.' He also states that by the time the Inn sequence rolled around it had become apparent that Roy and Miko were 'completely incompatible'. It does not, however, state that this was when Rich changed his mind on the subject.
It would seem to be very close to that point in time.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html

Roy is wanting to impress Miko

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html

Roy's attitude has shifted enough that Haley notes the difference

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0246.html

Roy makes a hostile comment directly to Miko.

There is nothing within the story itself that justifies this shift. So it makes sense if we assume there was a change in plans about 230.

there is absolutely no evidence that Miko was -ever- intended to be a love-interest for the entirety of the comic.

Indeed, Rich himself flatly denies this reading. His commentary in NCftPB, (the same commentary which the belt-shifted storyline comes from) explicitly states that Miko was intended to be a "recurring antagonist throughout the rest of the strip" from the moment she was introduced.
And a hostile "girlfriend" is a very good antagonist for a story. Lots of TV shows have full seasons of variations on that gag. It's a running gag for Groo. So there is no denial here that she would also be a love interest for the entire strip. And since she started as one, the presumption is she would have stayed as one.

Demented

2008-01-20, 04:44 AM

There is nothing within the story itself that justifies this shift.

Well, I suppose being converted to a woman might not be such a major feature in your attraction to a person, even if your attraction is shallower than most seasonal mud ponds. And that rant immediately after the inn's destruction? Well, Roy always was the forgiving sort, so I doubt that gave him much pause.

Yes, it is clear that Roy's change in perception was solely due to Giant becoming disenchanted with a very concrete and well-entrenched story concept...

I'm sure those insufferable, self-declared "Miko haters" probably had a factor in the Giant's decision as well.

maxon

2008-01-20, 05:41 AM

I see nothing in the paladin code that guarantees the opponent first whack. The opponents were warned and simply did not regard her as the threat she was.

Contrast to the behavior of the party. Roy is fine with attacking the ogres with an ambush. V attacks Miko with a spell in the throne room, again without the trace of a warning. And we have a host of cases where they can offer some degree of tactically expedient excuse.

Your point being? Neither V nor Roy are Paladins.

This is my take on Miko and her story within the strip which is something I have not seen expressed before. I've never bothered much with the Miko threads because I wasn't interested in the character so I'm surprised I'm bothering to post this. However, here it is:

I felt the whole Miko business was the weakest part of the comic overall. Her plot purpose was to get the order down to Azure City and I found that whole section dull (with the possible exception of the sequence from the Inn which could have been done just as well without Miko). I know many of you will say things about character development of the members of the order and this is true but character development can be achieved in many ways and what character development there was could have been done just as well in other ways and didn't impact significantly on the plot - unless I've forgotten something important: I have never reread that sequence. Useful and interesting character development doesn't alter the fact that the whole Miko thing was a plot device to get the order from one point to another. This point was rammed home by 251 A Piece of His Mind. For me that was the nadir of that whole sequence. Not only was Rich saying absolutely explicitly the whole thing was a mechanistic device but Miko herself was so repellent and not in a good way. I know that strip was meant to be a joke but I thought it was a pretty poor one. That's the point I stopped reading for a while. I came back here because I do like the comic but at that point, I really thought Rich was losing it.

FujinAkari

2008-01-20, 06:06 AM

Demented

2008-01-20, 06:11 AM

But Roy's not a samurai.
(Or maybe he became a Samurai when he got those levels in Future Psychic.)

Which is altogether more proof that Miko is a ninja!

:miko: Hai!

maxon

2008-01-20, 07:07 AM

While I agree that comparing Miko to V is an exercise in futility, I'd like to note that both Roy and Miko are LG. As a result, unless there is a specific condition in the paladin code that addresses a certain situation, then both Roy and Miko are held to roughly the same criteria (that of being Lawful Good.)

<snip>If it is good enough for Roy, then you can't fault Miko for doing it. David's argument is that Miko is actually doing significantly better than Roy in this instance, and Roy sets the LG standard.

I suggest you read the argument again - specifically the points and counterpoints. They were discussing a 'paladin' code and the higher standards you might expect from a paladin. Roy might be held to roughly the same criteria (although others might have a different opinion on that) but that's not the point.

As for the rest of your post... it seems to be mostly just opinion, and there really isn't any point in debating someone's opinion with them :P

Well, damn and here I was thinking that's what we were discussing - you know people's opinions. Whereas what we're discussing is fact then?

TheWarBlade

2008-01-20, 09:32 AM

I Hope She Returns!

Alfryd

2008-01-20, 10:46 AM

I see nothing in the paladin code that guarantees the opponent first whack. The opponents were warned and simply did not regard her as the threat she was.
I'm not denying that Miko's conduct has (or had generally) conformed to the letter of the paladin code. That was not my point. The problem is that she walks a line so fine that she eventually crosses it, which is not really in-keeping with the spirit of the code in the first place. Nor is she entirely frank and open. Quite the contrary. She tends to bottle up her feelings to the verge of bursting point, and conceal her objectives for personal advantage wherever possible.

Contrast to the behavior of the party...
Irrelevant to discussion of Miko's standards of behaviour. The rest of the party are not paladins.

In effect, she slapped Sabine's face and marched away.
Having lulled her into grapple range through careful misidrection. Which is my point.

There is nothing within the story itself that justifies this shift.
I wouldn't be entirely certain of that. Rich, in fact, gives several cues to indicate why Roy shifted his position on the matter- inability to answer Elan's query, the gender belt cutting off his supply of gonad hormones, Miko's final speech where she threatens to become even-more-domineering-than-before. I'm not claiming that Roy's, or the Order's, turnabout was rational or fair in the strictest sense, but it's roughly comprehensible.

Besides, as mentioned, Rich has had the plot scripted in advance for quite some time. Back to strip 100 or so, I vaguely recall.

Well, I suppose being converted to a woman might not be such a major feature in your attraction to a person, even if your attraction is shallower than most seasonal mud ponds. And that rant immediately after the inn's destruction? Well, Roy always was the forgiving sort, so I doubt that gave him much pause.
Demented puts the point quite well.

This is my take on Miko and her story within the strip which is something I have not seen expressed before...
Fascinating. Please punctuate.

While I agree that comparing Miko to V is an exercise in futility, I'd like to note that both Roy and Miko are LG. As a result, unless there is a specific condition in the paladin code that addresses a certain situation, then both Roy and Miko are held to roughly the same criteria (that of being Lawful Good.)
Here, I would have to disagree quite strenuously. There is tremendous variance within the field of Lawful Good characters far beyond that permitted to those who live by the paladin code. Mr. Spock, Admiral William Adama and Bruce Wayne are all Lawful Good. None would even approximate the strictness of paladin conduct in either method, intent, or ideals.

Vectner

2008-01-20, 10:54 AM

No

Edit: did you know you can't have single word posts?

Ampersand

2008-01-20, 11:56 AM

Why is there this constant nonsense of seeing Miko as death knight or blackguard?

Because people hate paladins and enjoy seeing them corrupted. A lot of people see paladins as killjoys and overly nosy moral guardians whose sole purpose is to ruin the party's fun. There's two main reasons for that, I believe, and you can chicken and egg or argue which is the cause and effect as much as you want: the paladin's code appeals to players who like to "control" the party, and some players take up the ultra moral model out of self-defense against players and DMs who seem to go out of their way to engineer situations in which the paladin will lose their powers. In fact, see Alfryd's sig. :smallsmile:

I'm not a big fan of Roy, but I have to agree with his assessment that having a class whose abilities depends on the actions of others is a particularly moronic design decision.

As much as I'd like Miko back, I don't think she will be. Miko is a breakout character...only, ya'know, sorta in reverse. She committed the ultimate sin for a fictional character: she began overshadowing the protagonists. Back In The Day(tm), Miko threads completely dominated the forum, and single threads could run to 20+ pages if there was a good argument going on...usually over the same kind of nitpicky word choice and "book such and such says" you can see from David and Alfryd in this thread, so thanks to them for providing an example. :smallwink: It usually calmed down some when she hadn't appeared for a while, but it seemed like there was always at least one major Miko thread going.

(Warning: rampant and baseless speculation ahead!)I really think that the Giant had no idea Miko would cause such controversy. When she came to dominate the forums to the exclusion of the Order, he quickly revised his plans for her (or maybe not so quickly...I agree with David's point out that around ~240 or so we start seeing hostility towards Miko from the party that's completely out of proportion with what we've seen her do). When a secondary character overshadows the protagonists, the two main options are to make the protagonists more interesting to compensate, or to get rid of the offending character (whether by putting them on a bus or dropping a bridge on them).

So we likely won't see Miko until the Giant can think of a way to bring her back without her dominating the strip...if ever. My favorite theory is to have her return as a Angel of Wrath...it gets around the "but she is ded!" thing and, if she's returns as a Planar Ally or the like, she would be subservient to Durkon and thus wouldn't be able to eclipse the Order as easily...unless we started talking about whether it was right to magically compel sentient beings. :smallsmile:

Lizard Lord

2008-01-20, 12:10 PM

If I met Miko in real life, I assure you we would not get along well at all. However, the same could be true for most of my favorite fictional characters. Miko is an interesting character, and I would like to see an interesting character like her return sometime.

Alfryd

2008-01-20, 12:41 PM

...usually over the same kind of nitpicky word choice and "book such and such says" you can see from David and Alfryd in this thread, so thanks to them for providing an example.
I am crushed. Crushed like aluminium foil hats at a mythbusters convention. Crushed like the dollar exchange rate. Crushed like garlic for a mediterranean seasoning. Crushed like a guy casting frantically for a metaphor. Um.

I'll get back to that.

I'm not a big fan of Roy, but I have to agree with his assessment that having a class whose abilities depends on the actions of others is a particularly moronic design decision.
As Roy found to his cost, Miko's class features were not, in fact, quite so dependant on his party's behaviour as he might have estimated.
*heh*
In any case. These difficulties mostly arise because the Paladin is given as a base player class, rather than a prestige class or intended for NPCs. If players had the chance to get to know their party before trying to role-play a paladin, I suspect things would glide a deal smoother for all concerned.
Besides, paladinship should be earned.

...unless we started talking about whether it was right to magically compel sentient beings.
While I nitpick, I'll point out it's called Planar Ally for a reason- the summoned creature doesn't have to do anything it doesn't agree to (although there's a general mechanism of fair payment in return for service.) Actually, I guess that raises certain story angles in itself...

Crushed, I say!

kpenguin

2008-01-20, 12:46 PM

The happy face is misleading.

FujinAkari

2008-01-20, 01:27 PM

Here, I would have to disagree quite strenuously. There is tremendous variance within the field of Lawful Good characters far beyond that permitted to those who live by the paladin code. Mr. Spock, Admiral William Adama and Bruce Wayne are all Lawful Good. None would even approximate the strictness of paladin conduct in either method, intent, or ideals.

Exactly, there are specific instances in which the Paladin Code places additional requirements upon a Paladin which a Lawful Good character does not have, namely:

- respect legitimate authority.
- act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)
- help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends
- punish those who harm or threaten innocents,
- not willfully associate with those known to be evil.

If it isn't covered by one of these specific criteria (which attacking is not) then the standard is simply Lawful Good.

Having lulled her into grapple range through careful misidrection. Which is my point.

I must admit... your argument confuses me. It seems to be that Miko isn't allowed to do anything but be an utter moron in any conflict, any use of tactics or misdirection is illegal.

1) Miko isn't even a Paladin at this point! Why in the world are you still holding her to the Paladin code?
2) Even if she was, once Sabine demonstrates her evil intent (which she quite clearly did) the Paladin code explicitly charges Miko to punish her. The Paladin code requires Miko not to lie, it never requires her to tell the entirety of the truth, you are quite simply holding her to higher standards than the rules do.

Well, damn and here I was thinking that's what we were discussing - you know people's opinions. Whereas what we're discussing is fact then?

I tend to only discuss debateable fact. Saying "I like Miko" doesn't help a conversation very much, as there is no debate that can come from that. "Well you should!" bleh.

Talking about specific reasons for disliking Miko can yield fruit, but far and wide, simply saying that you didn't enjoy the character is impossible to discuss, and when I read your post, it seemed mostly to be a dislike of the character. *shrug*

I wasn't trying to be rude, just explaining why I was just responding to a snippet.

The Extinguisher

2008-01-20, 02:12 PM

You know, all this paladin hate would go away if people played paladins in parties that a paladin would actually work.

I find it odd that the most paladins are played in parties where everyone else are morally neutral. It's silly.

David Argall

2008-01-20, 07:11 PM

I'm not denying that Miko's conduct has (or had generally) conformed to the letter of the paladin code. That was not my point. The problem is that she walks a line so fine that she eventually crosses it, which is not really in-keeping with the spirit of the code in the first place. Nor is she entirely frank and open. Quite the contrary. She tends to bottle up her feelings to the verge of bursting point, and conceal her objectives for personal advantage wherever possible.
Mt:23:24: Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

You do seem to be finding small, no more than possible, flaws here. But Miko is large and in charge in both good and bad ways. No need to look for flaws that are not there.

Miko not frank and open? We have her ranting at the party frequently and loudly. She is not in the least bottling up her feelings. Of course, she is not venting them either. Unlike Redcloud, who finds bullying the Eye of Fire & Fear a release, Miko retains and builds her anger.

Concealing objectives for personable advantage? Miko? She's the one who wants to sleep in the ditch. And just who doesn't learn her objectives of killing or arresting them?

Irrelevant to discussion of Miko's standards of behaviour. The rest of the party are not paladins.
True, but they still give us a measure. They are under some of the same strictures Miko is, and so their acceptable deeds give us a measure of what are acceptable deeds for Miko. This is clearer in the negative than the positive, but it is still useful. If LG Roy deems it fine to do a sneak attack, we can hardly deem it a major sin of Miko's.
[We can note here Roy and Belkar. That's a no-no for a paladin, and Roy has to argue hard to get it allowed by the deva. The standards are stricter for the paladin, but they are largely the same.]

Having lulled her into grapple range through careful misidrection. Which is my point.
Which seems to be the wrong point. Miko is not trying to hurt Sabine, tho she presumably considers that a bonus. Rather she is just trying to make it clear that she meant no.
The scene is much like girl and boy in a bar. He makes a pass. She shoots it down. He persists and wants a kiss. She tells him to close his eyes. He does. And she pours a glass of water over him.
To the extent, quite limited, we can say Miko is being deceptive at all, it is in the cause of telling the truth. She is not trying to get a tactical advantage over Sabine in the hopes of defeating her.

Rich, in fact, gives several cues to indicate why Roy shifted his position on the matter- I'm not claiming that Roy's, or the Order's, turnabout was rational or fair in the strictest sense, but it's roughly comprehensible.
"Roughly comprehensible" is entirely compatible with a sudden change in plans papered over as best as the writer can.

Besides, as mentioned, Rich has had the plot scripted in advance for quite some time. Back to strip 100 or so, I vaguely recall.
A plot scripted does not mean a plot that won't change. And it seems that here it made a quick change.

There is tremendous variance within the field of Lawful Good characters far beyond that permitted to those who live by the paladin code.
That there is variation does not deny simularity. We would not call them all LG if there was not basic simularity. That the paladin has an even stricter code doesn't mean these others are not following what might be deemed a looser variation of the same thing.

Miko is a breakout character...only, ya'know, sorta in reverse. She committed the ultimate sin for a fictional character: she began overshadowing the protagonists.
When she came to dominate the forums to the exclusion of the Order, he quickly revised his plans for her When a secondary character overshadows the protagonists, the two main options are to make the protagonists more interesting to compensate, or to get rid of the offending character (whether by putting them on a bus or dropping a bridge on them).
Quite possibly an accurate theory of what happened here, but this is mostly true in acting where there are real emotions behind the characters. What one actor gains is often at the expense of another, who likely objects. [Not always even then. Danny Kaye told the story of when he was a rising actor and so flawlessly rolled off a long list of complicated Russian names in a song that he stopped the show, a great thing to do, except when one does it right before the big number of the big star. Kaye feared he would lose the song, or his job. But the big star (Gertrude Lawrence?) considered it a challenge to be met, and proceed to belt out a showstopper herself. And the play continued thereafter with two showstoppers in a row.]
But in writing, it is common for the secondary charater to take over the story. Popeye was almost a bit character when he first showed up in a strip with well established characters. Now most of them are the bit characters and Popeye has dominated the strip for generations.

Edit: did you know you can't have single word posts?
I understand it is a 10-character minimum, which means "Outstanding" would pass muster.
Not that I have ever tested this. I tend to see if there is a maximum size for a post.

Alfryd

2008-01-23, 07:01 AM

If it isn't covered by one of these specific criteria (which attacking is not) then the standard is simply Lawful Good.
I misunderstood.

I must admit... your argument confuses me. It seems to be that Miko isn't allowed to do anything but be an utter moron in any conflict, any use of tactics or misdirection is illegal.
Oh, come now. Don't tell me there's no viable middle-ground between Lawful Stupid and Lawful Smartass. She could, at the least, have conferred with Roy and Co. to ponder tactical options, and told the Ogres outright that they were surrounded (if only at the last minute,) having ensured that any members of the Order with poor Hide checks were under V's Invisibility sphere. She's a clever girl. She could figure something out if she put her mind to it.

This isn't about just holding back data. This about making statements or conspicuously ommiting facts which deliberately construct an impression in the enemy's mind that runs counter to the truth. Yes, in the technical sense, Miko did not deceive Sabine, in the sense of pronouncing outright untruths. But in the practical sense, in the sense of overtly engineering false impressions, she rather did.

(Besides, Miko did actually outright deceive the MitD when she agreed to abide by the terms of his 'who can hit the lightest' contest. She was planning to power attack, 'fracksake!)

...Miko retains and builds her anger.
Explain to me again how this is not bottling up? I would also strongly suspect she was bottling up her warmer feelings for Roy up until strip 250 or so, as it is otherwise difficult to account for her sudden openness to a relationship.

Concealing objectives for personable advantage? Miko? She's the one who wants to sleep in the ditch. And just who doesn't learn her objectives of killing or arresting them?
The Order, right up to about 5 seconds before she tries to kill or arrest them on her first and third attempts, and with no warning of any kind for over 24 hours during her second assault. She never alerts Sabine. She never alerts the MitD. Technically, she never tells the ogre chieftain they'll be killed, but it seems the most likely prospect, so I'll let that slide.

Listen, there's nothing terribly contestable here. The whole point to Miko as a character, by Rich's explicit admission, is that she adheres to her code by a razor-thin margin (when once-upon-a-time she adhered to it at all.) i.e, Miko abides to the letter, not the spirit, of her code, and always has- including the bit about 'honesty'.

True, but [the Order] still give us a measure...
No, they don't. Not even a little. At best, they set a lower bound. A waaaay lower bound.
By your logic, we could judge Miko by Belkar's standards.

Which seems to be the wrong point. Miko is not trying to hurt Sabine, tho she presumably considers that a bonus. Rather she is just trying to make it clear that she meant no.
I would disagree, but again, irrelevant. This is clearly a contest involving violent force. Under such circumstances the paladin is supposed to give fair warning and let an opponent know that said violent force is imminent. Miko did not.

"Roughly comprehensible" is entirely compatible with a sudden change in plans papered over as best as the writer can. ...A plot scripted does not mean a plot that won't change. And it seems that here it made a quick change.
If we delve back into Paladin blues, on the intro just before strip 224, we can find Rich's direct statements on the matter:

"My original concept, going back as far early as the origins of the strips ongoing plot in OOTS#13, was that Miko would be a sexy female paladin that Roy wanted, but wanted nothing to do with Roy. Obviously, the Miko that made it into the strip is NOT that Miko."

However,

"Even up to Miko's unveiling in #200, though, the idea of her as a romantic foil for Roy persisted, though it had changed. She was not only a potential love interest, she was a direct challenge to his authority..."

There is some evidence that Rich that did change his mind about the Inn sequence's purpose relatively shortly beforehand (a notion which both baffles and enrages me, but that's another matter)-

"Originally, the Inn sequence was conceived as light romantic comedy... By the time strip #223 rolled around, though ...it was clear that she and Roy were completely incompatible. Whenever I wrote her lines of dialogue, they came out far ruder and harsher than I had expected, and I saw the character evolve into a far harsher person before my eyes. There was no way to undo some of her rudeness from previous strips, so the solution was to have the other characters react to her poor manners appropriately..."

So I don't really know what to make of it. The first statement strongly implies that the Miko which made it into the strip was clearly not intended to be a persistent love interest. The 2nd statement indicates that some form of romantic potential was envisioned as far as strip 200. The 3rd statement implies that what certainly seems to me to be to a great major honkin' plot point was essentially ad-libbed to howls of screaming protest from the fans, but also states quite clearly that this was simply the most natural progression from the Order and Miko's earlier interactions. Not exactly "a sudden change in plans papered over as best as the writer can" without any compelling reason in terms of character relations.
Besides, Rich had been giving fairly explicit hints of Trouble Brewing(tm) for Roy and Miko well before the Inn escapade.

:roy: "I finally meet someone who's everything I thought I ever wanted, and find that I really just want to kick her in the head."

:vaarsuvius: "...two people can seem to have everything in common, and still be utterly wrong for eachother."

FujinAkari

2008-01-23, 07:39 AM

Oh, come now. Don't tell me there's no viable middle-ground between Lawful Stupid and Lawful Smartass. She could, at the least, have conferred with Roy and Co. to ponder tactical options, and told the Ogres outright that they were surrounded (if only at the last minute,) having ensured that any members of the Order with poor Hide checks were under V's Invisibility sphere. She's a clever girl. She could figure something out if she put her mind to it.

She could, but why? If she DID tell the ogres to surrender... what then? She didn't have the means to safely transport them, nor did she much relish the idea of taking a costly detour to some out-of-the-way city to turn them over to authorities, nor was dragging them all the way to Azure City much of an option. Miko clearly wanted to kill the ogres, but she -did- give them the chance to surrender, it was a loaded chance, but still a chance.

I think this is our big disagreement. You hate Miko because she isn't obeying to the valient and pure paladin mindset, while I love that about her. If you've seen one "Superman" Paladin, who is a shining image of perfection, you've seen them all. A flawed Paladin is quite refreshing, and one which barely qualifies as good? classic.

This isn't about just holding back data. This about making statements or conspicuously ommiting facts which deliberately construct an impression in the enemy's mind that runs counter to the truth. Yes, in the technical sense, Miko did not deceive Sabine, in the sense of pronouncing outright untruths. But in the practical sense, in the sense of overtly engineering false impressions, she rather did.

Who cares? There is absolutely nothing in the Paladin code which says you can't mislead the enemy.

(Besides, Miko did actually outright deceive the MitD when she agreed to abide by the terms of his 'who can hit the lightest' contest. She was planning to power attack, 'fracksake!)

This is a good point, actually. Then again, as DM if I had a Paladin who gave up the chance to save tens of thousands of lives due to having to mislead a villainous creature... yeah... SO fallen. Miko didn't really deceive MitD here, she just took an opportunity. I would be much more willing to fault her if SHE had suggested the contest, but she didn't.

Revlid

2008-01-23, 08:13 AM

As put by David Argall:

"Sabine raises Miko and marries her, converting to LG in the process. Reforming a demon regains her paladinhood. Sleeping with a demon loses it again. Marrying her and making an honest woman of her regains paladinhood. Marry another woman..."

Huzzah!

David Argall

2008-01-23, 08:15 PM

She could, at the least, have conferred with Roy and Co. to ponder tactical options,
Quite possibly a good idea, but they were her prisoners/subordinates, to be ordered, not deferred to. She had a plan she deemed good, and she presumably heard enough of Roy's plan to deem it inferior. Since there was no part of her plan that required them knowing of it, her attitude of why bother would be reasonable in her eyes at least.

and told the Ogres outright that they were surrounded (if only at the last minute,)
But the ogres were not surrounded, and were apparently a serious challenge to the party. Why give them this chance to evade justice? By lying yet?

She's a clever girl. She could figure something out if she put her mind to it.
She did, and it worked quite well.

( Miko did actually outright deceive the MitD when she agreed to abide by the terms of his 'who can hit the lightest' contest. She was planning to power attack!)
But again, we find Miko gave full, if rather short range, warning of her hostility. The MitD deserves warning that she is hostile. It has no right to have her attack in an ineffective manner.

Explain to me again how this is not bottling up?
There is a popular theory that like a heated bottle, one can vent the emotional pressure by giving voice to it, as we see in the comic with Redcloak, who finds it such a relief to bully the pseudo-Xykon. This theory gives rise to the idea that when one bottles up the anger, it eventually explodes, as would that overheated bottle.
But we see that Miko does indeed vent, regularly and loudly. She expresses herself forcefully and often. Nothing is being bottled up here.
Miko is rather an example of the anti-venting theory, which argues that when you express your anger, you develop the habbit of expressing your anger, which means that you are that much more ready to explode in times of stress. It's worked in the past after all. So, no, there is no bottling up here.

I would also strongly suspect she was bottling up her warmer feelings for Roy up until strip 250 or so, as it is otherwise difficult to account for her sudden openness to a relationship.
More reasonable, but we can instead give Miko a strong desire for a man, but only a suitable man, and she would have quite high standards, such that no candidate qualifies. So when Roy apologizes for trying to rush her into the nearest set of bushes, she would assume he was still interested in her, and that he might be the one man who met her standards.

The Order, right up to about 5 seconds before she tries to kill or arrest them on her first and third attempts, and with no warning of any kind for over 24 hours during her second assault.
5 seconds is 5 seconds. They were warned. [Technically the time was probably somewhat more than 5 secords, if only because D&D rounds are 6 seconds.] At the inn, it is the party who issued the challenge. They knew, or should have known, the risks.

She never alerts Sabine.
As noted, she is not trying to attack Sabine, merely get her message across.

She never alerts the MitD.
"...you are an enemy to me." But again, he has announced himself her jailer with a duty to keep her there. She owes him no duty to make his job easier.

The whole point to Miko as a character, by Rich's explicit admission, is that she adheres to her code by a razor-thin margin (when once-upon-a-time she adhered to it at all.)
As I recall the statement, he makes no such explicit admission. He merely does not deny the idea.

No, they don't. Not even a little. At best, they set a lower bound. A waaaay lower bound.
You of course contradict yourself here, both denying and acknowledging they give a measure. But since Roy is LG, it would seem that he sets a distinctly close measure.

By your logic, we could judge Miko by Belkar's standards.
We can, tho it would likely be the reverse. Belkar would do it? Then probably Miko would not.

This is clearly a contest involving violent force.
What contest? Sabine was just being a pushy saleswoman. Miko "stepped on the foot she had in the doorway".

If we delve back into Paladin blues, on the intro just before strip 224,
I am going to have to bread down and buy it, but the quotes do enlighten the discussion here.

we can find Rich's direct statements on the matter:

"Originally, the Inn sequence was conceived as light romantic comedy... By the time strip #223 rolled around, though ...it was clear that she and Roy were completely incompatible. Whenever I wrote her lines of dialogue, they came out far ruder and harsher than I had expected, and I saw the character evolve into a far harsher person before my eyes. There was no way to undo some of her rudeness from previous strips, so the solution was to have the other characters react to her poor manners appropriately..."

So I don't really know what to make of it. The first statement strongly implies that the Miko which made it into the strip was clearly not intended to be a persistent love interest.
"She was not only a potential love interest, ..."
You are misunderstanding the statement. The writer does not say or mean that Miko was not going to be a love interest, persistent or not. Rather, he says that the particular type of love interest he had first envisioned didn't make it.

The 3rd statement implies that what certainly seems to me to be to a great major honkin' plot point was essentially ad-libbed to howls of screaming protest from the fans, but also states quite clearly that this was simply the most natural progression from the Order and Miko's earlier interactions.
Not exactly. Our writer acknowledges his inability to write Miko the way he wanted.
"Whenever I wrote her lines of dialogue, they came out far ruder and harsher than I had expected, and I saw the character evolve into a far harsher person before my eyes."
As I have said, this is not a great flaw. Miko as planned is a very hard character to write successfully. Her lines must be rude and harsh, but not too rude and harsh. If one does not do it precisely, you get ... well, Miko, and a lot of people eager to dance on her grave. Probably wisely, our author accepted he wasn't up to the challenge and gave her the too harsh lines, and the party response.

Just where he accepted that the Miko-Roy romance was toast is not that clear. Even in the inn, we still have Roy trying to make progress with her. But it was a fairly drastic break.

Besides, Rich had been giving fairly explicit hints of Trouble Brewing(tm) for Roy and Miko well before the Inn escapade.

:roy: "I finally meet someone who's everything I thought I ever wanted, and find that I really just want to kick her in the head."

:vaarsuvius: "...two people can seem to have everything in common, and still be utterly wrong for eachother."
These are "hints" only in retrospect. "The course of true love never did run smooth" -A Midsummer Night's Dream Act 1, scene 1
We expect there to be problems for the lovers, and quotes like those above are entirely consistent with the two happily ever aftering.

North

2008-01-23, 08:23 PM

I really hope she doesnt come back in the material realm. But if Roy were to run into a mellower Miko in LG Heaven Id be happy with that.

Metal Head

2008-01-23, 08:23 PM

If Miko comes back, it should only be so that someone can give her a good spanking (not the dirty kind) and teach her some manners. If it was up to me the spanking would be done with a red hot sword.

FujinAkari

2008-01-23, 09:21 PM

If Miko comes back, it should only be so that someone can give her a good spanking (not the dirty kind)

Well what fun is that?

VetMichael

2008-01-23, 11:29 PM

NO Not only was she struck down and cut in half, but a stake has been driven into her black, unbeating heart, her mouth stuffed with holy wafers (garlic flavor), her body bathed in holy water, dried in the mid-summer sun, burned to ash, and her ashes have been scattered among all the different planes, demiplanes, dimensions, and quasidimensions.

:smallwink:

David Argall

2008-01-24, 12:08 AM

Saco de Carne

2008-01-24, 07:44 AM

This shouldn't really require spoiler but... I could imagine Miko returning raised into an evil form (wight/mummy/vampire... whatever) as it's her only chance to return and redeem the things she did in life, and succeeding in doing so. A typical anti-hero twist maybe.

Hey, what about the classical skelly knight ... perfect for her, unless the lawyers show up again.

Callista

2008-01-24, 02:48 PM

I really hope she remains dead. Miko's had enough trouble in her life; she deserves the rest; and she has a lot to learn that she's now got the time to think about. I'd like to see her in the afterlife, though. I want to know whether that little spark of revelation she had while she was dying made any difference.

The Hop Goblin

2008-01-24, 02:48 PM

Now I've always been classified as a Miko 'hater', mostly because of some of the opinions of Miko 'lovers', with that being said...

I would not mind seeing Miko return, to the world as Lancelot did in Excalibur (Lancelot was disgraced by being found by Arthur having nookie with Gwynevere, and ran off upset. 'Years' later he was back as a more purified Lancelot, sans ego, and kicking butt of Arthur's enemies. He died, but redeemed).

In this, I would not mind seeing her in the afterlife, even in her current egotistical state; as long as she inevitably realizes that she was a bad paladin, and goes through some sort of atonement period or experiences the consequences of her worldly actions.

If that happens, I wouldn't mind her coming back for one more romp on earth, in a more Paladinny type role.

bluish_wolf

2008-01-25, 12:27 AM

Miko will be raised by a random doctor. Realizing that she was never meant to be a paladin, Miko will become a nurse. It will turn out to be her life calling and she'll be really good at it. Everyone everywhere will call,

"Miko, Miko! Nurse!" (http://www.panduck.com/media/flash/mikomiko.swf)

†Seer†

2008-01-25, 01:33 AM

I would like to see a redeemed Miko.

The thought of a redeemed Miko scares me...

Miko, newly risen and absolved of her sins, takes that as a cue to mean that the gods merely reverted her to "Fallen Paladin" as a test of her loyalty to them and that her way was always the correct way. Logically following said train of thought, Hinjo and the Order are now names on a hit list! :P

This is why I do declare that there shall be no redemption or even non-redempted resurection for this mischevious, masculine-mauling miss Miko.

*EDIT* bluish...that was...amazing tee hee.

David Argall

2008-01-25, 02:33 AM

The thought of a redeemed Miko scares me...

Miko, newly risen and absolved of her sins, takes that as a cue to mean that the gods merely reverted her to "Fallen Paladin" as a test of her loyalty to them and that her way was always the correct way. Logically following said train of thought, Hinjo and the Order are now names on a hit list! :P

This is why I do declare that there shall be no redemption or even non-redempted resurection for this mischevious, masculine-mauling miss Miko.

Your worries are misplaced, at least from our point of view.

The party needs opposition. Roy may think the comic has too many foes, but he is wrong. It is the opposition that allows the party to shine. So having Miko back to be in the party's way is distinctly desirable.

And Miko would not be chasing the party down with a hit list, at least not in this manner. She is an antagonistic protagonist. She is on the same side as the party, but her "help" is generally more trouble than it is worth.

More basic here, you can only be absolved of your sins when you acknowledge them. So Miko can not return absolved and convinced she should hunt down the party. Either is possible, but not both.

Ave

2008-01-25, 02:56 AM

shakes019

2008-01-25, 08:48 AM

I think that once Rich is finished the story of the Order, he could go back and write a story about Miko, but the connection to the current story line is broken.

Is there still a Miko story to tell? Maybe.

Does it relate to this strip? I don't think so.

FujinAkari

2008-01-25, 04:36 PM

I don't see how she would meet Roy, they are on different planes.

There is no evidence of this. General consensus is that she either went to the LG or LN afterlives, with roughly equal saying each. Her meeting Roy is a definite possibility.

teratorn

2008-01-25, 04:51 PM

Last strip was foreshadowing, she'll be back as a breakdancer...

David Argall

2008-01-25, 04:54 PM

Yes, they need opposition, but it is kind of ridiculous of an opponent comes back again and again.
This works for comic relief opponents like the linear guild, but Miko isn't even humorous.

Now she is more of a straightman than many of the other characters, but she has provided fine comic potential a number of times in the strip.

As to coming back again and again, so far Miko has not come back at all.

Alfryd

2008-01-26, 09:05 PM

@David Argall

...why bother would be reasonable in her eyes at least.
I fail to see what bearing 'Miko considers reasonable' has on the actually reasonable.

But the ogres were not surrounded...
If you review my post, I am confident you will find something about secreting the other Order members using Invisibility Sphere or Hide checks prior to combat. Yeah. It's right there.
This is a rundown of events as they might have been, not how they were. As for why one would tell the Ogres they were surrounded (once this were, in fact, the case,) and possibly affording a chance for peaceful surrender, well... because I believe that would be better inkeeping with the spirit of the paladin code.

...it worked quite well.
In the tactical sense, yes. In the sense of spiritual adherence to her code, not really. Again, we are using differing definitions of 'reasonable' here.

But again, we find Miko gave full, if rather short range, warning of her hostility.
Yeah, but then Miko implicitly agreed to cease hostilities for the purpose of, essentially, light entertainment. She broke her word.

But again, he has announced himself her jailer with a duty to keep her there...
The most he said was 'this is kind of awkward.' Which, in itself, sort of implies that he's torn on the matter, and might be pursuaded to let her go with a little effort. It's worth a shot, certainly before resorting to attempts to kill sentient beings who were not directly threatening you.

What contest? Sabine was just being a pushy saleswoman. Miko "stepped on the foot she had in the doorway".
As noted, she is not trying to attack Sabine, merely get her message across.
David, since when does snapping someone's vertebra count as a polite let-down? She snapped her neck. That is an assault. if you can't accept that very, very, simple observation, then there are basic problems with your train of thought that go far beyond anything I can hope to rectify.
It doesn't matter what Miko's motive was. She used violent force. As a paladin, you give fair warning unless you have an overwhelming reason not to do so. What was Miko's overwhelming reason here? She was tetchy?

...They knew, or should have known, the risks.
5 seconds is 5 seconds. They were warned.
In letter, yes. In spirit, no. We are going to have to beg to differ on this point. In fact, I don't have to beg.

...one can vent the emotional pressure by giving voice to it...
Yeah, and Miko's been venting real well, in between the homocidal episodes.
Besides, she doesn't actually vent on the specific causes of her anger- she always picks another perceived wrong to focus her ire upon, as part of her pattern of spurious rationalisation. What Miko says she's angry about, and what she's actually angry about, are very different things. Which ain't no good therapeutically.

As I recall the statement, he makes no such explicit admission. He merely does not deny the idea.
In Paladin Blues, just before strip 198, we have:
"...she sticks to her Lawful Good code, albeit sometimes by a razor-thin margin."

You of course contradict yourself here, both denying and acknowledging they give a measure.
I do nothing of the sort. I'm pointing out the standards of the group are far below what would be expected of a paladin. Even Roy is not a particularly good example of adherence to the paladin code's spirit- as the Deva took pains to point out, his classically Lawful qualifications are dubious, and he has no problem with killing unsuspecting Ogres in their sleep. They are not a useful ethical comparison.

[Rich] says that the particular type of love interest he had first envisioned didn't make it. ...Just where he accepted that the Miko-Roy romance was toast is not that clear. ...We expect there to be problems for the lovers, and quotes like those above are entirely consistent with the two happily ever aftering.
David, which part of 'it was clear that she and Roy were completely incompatible' do you have trouble understanding? Rich says, quite clearly, that he had already decided the two would go their seperate ways before the Inn sequence ever began. And there is good evidence to suggest that he was leading up to this transition well beforehand. I consider this case closed.

More basic here, you can only be absolved of your sins when you acknowledge them. So Miko can not return absolved and convinced she should hunt down the party. Either is possible, but not both.
Yeah, the problem being that Miko Fell for killing Shojo, not for being convinced that the Order were somehow guilty of conspiring with Xykon. She could, in theory, repent of one and remain fully convinced of the other.

@FujinAkari

If she DID tell the ogres to surrender... what then?
Who said anything about surrender? But hey, assuming they listened, (when the main assumption is that they won't, given they can't see the Order,) you could always demand they hand over the prisoner, all their weapons, and leave the village in peace. But that's not the point.

If a paladin is forced to choose between compromising his/her principles or being ineffective in battle, guess what? All else equal, they're supposed to favour ineffectiveness.

Who cares? There is absolutely nothing in the Paladin code which says you can't mislead the enemy.
Apart from the 'behave honourably' bit? Deception, whether implicit or explicit, is generally not considered honourable.

Then again, as DM if I had a Paladin who gave up the chance to save tens of thousands of lives due to having to mislead a villainous creature... yeah... SO fallen.
The MitD hadn't even said outright "you're not going anyware." Miko could at least have taken a few more seconds to pursue conversational options with a creature who was not directly hostile before she resorted to violence with lethal intent.

Miko didn't really deceive MitD here...
No, no, she really did.

You hate Miko because she isn't obeying to the valient and pure paladin mindset, while I love that about her.
Excuse me? Hate Miko? Me? Alfryd? I was defending Miko when you were still a grease swab on your mother's home pregnancy kit! I AM THE MIKO FANATIC'S MIKO FANATIC. AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT.

Now, to be perfectly clear, I certainly admire Miko's ingenuity and invention in being able to adapt tactics situationally on the fly in this regard. It's very clever. What I don't admire is the callow disregard for the spirit of her code that this implies. If a paladin is going to strain or break The Rules, they should be doing so for the greater good, consistently- and, initially, I was willing to give Miko the benefit of the doubt in this regard, as opposed to less charitable explanations- rationalisation, arrogance, a poor understanding of the source of her code's tenets, etc. That point was passed when Miko started attacking without warning in cases where alternatives were far from exhausted, and not the greater good, tactical expediency, or even personal safety were really served by straining her ethical position thus.

General consensus is that she either went to the LG or LN afterlives, with roughly equal saying each.
Aside from those who insist she went straight to the Hot Place. ...whichever one. *sigh*

FujinAkari

2008-01-26, 10:20 PM

Who said anything about surrender? But hey, assuming they listened, (when the main assumption is that they won't, given they can't see the Order,) you could always demand they hand over the prisoner, all their weapons, and leave the village in peace. But that's not the point.

The Paladin Code requires that Miko punish the evil, simply leaving them there is not an option.

If a paladin is forced to choose between compromising his/her principles or being ineffective in battle, guess what? All else equal, they're supposed to favour ineffectiveness.

Can you please direct me to what part of the Paladin Code specifies this? I don't seem to see it.

Apart from the 'behave honourably' bit? Deception, whether implicit or explicit, is generally not considered honourable.

Except that it defines honor as "not lying." Omitting facts is still telling the truth, possibly not the whole truth, but nonetheless the truth.

The MitD hadn't even said outright "you're not going anyware." Miko could at least have taken a few more seconds to pursue conversational options with a creature who was not directly hostile before she resorted to violence with lethal intent.

Could have, but certainly not required too. Again the paladin code REQUIRES Miko to punish the monster, once he identifies himself as a willing minion of Xykon.

No, no, she really did.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

Now, to be perfectly clear, I certainly admire Miko's ingenuity and invention in being able to adapt tactics situationally on the fly in this regard. It's very clever. What I don't admire is the callow disregard for the spirit of her code that this implies. If a paladin is going to strain or break The Rules, they should be doing so for the greater good, consistently- and, initially, I was willing to give Miko the benefit of the doubt in this regard, as opposed to less charitable explanations- rationalisation, arrogance, a poor understanding of the source of her code's tenets, etc. That point was passed when Miko started attacking without warning in cases where alternatives were far from exhausted, and not the greater good, tactical expediency, or even personal safety were really served by straining her ethical position thus.

Miko is still required to punish evil, its right there in the code she has sworn to uphold. The question is whether Miko is required to behave honorably to evil creatures, or if she is expected to punish them. The SRD doesn't specify, and Miko has obviously assumed that her code requires her to attack evil, and behave honorably to non-evil. As she hasn't fallen, despite doing this for the entirety of her career, she seems to be correct.

Aside from those who insist she went straight to the Hot Place. ...whichever one. *sigh*

Which are not part of the consensus, seeing as they make up less that 10% of the total :P

Yerocha

2008-01-26, 11:52 PM

My belief, as far as Miko goes, is that there are really only two possibilities:
- Miko appearing in the afterlife, which is likely because it is entirely possible for her judgement to be indecisive and take four months in order to sort out her final destination, and because it would fulfill the "fan-appeasing cameo" role quite nicely
- Somewhere down the line, at some point, The Order of the Stick (or someone else plot-centric) will discover that they NEED to ressurect Miko for whatever reason (I don't know, I don't actually play D+D)
Either way, I do truly believe that there will be some sort of appearance by her in the future. Maybe not right now, but eventually.

David Argall

2008-01-27, 03:23 AM

I fail to see what bearing 'Miko considers reasonable' has on the actually reasonable.
So far we have no evidence that what she considered reasonable under the circumstances of the ogre battle were other than reasonable.

If you review my post, I am confident you will find something about secreting the other Order members using Invisibility Sphere or Hide checks prior to combat. Yeah. It's right there.
You are trying to surround 15-20 ogres with 6 people. And V for one is not going to like any plan that leaves the elf without a meat shield. Nor are Haley or Elan likely to be of much help in surrounding the ogres. That simply does not seem a viable plan. The party does not have near the manpower to carry it out.

This is a rundown of events as they might have been, not how they were. As for why one would tell the Ogres they were surrounded (once this were, in fact, the case,) and possibly affording a chance for peaceful surrender, well... because I believe that would be better inkeeping with the spirit of the paladin code.
So your idea is that the paladin has to be lawful stupid? Miko produced a plan here that was tactically and morally superior to what the party had in mind. It is quibbling to insist that yet another plan would be even better.

Yeah, but then Miko implicitly agreed to cease hostilities for the purpose of, essentially, light entertainment. She broke her word.
The "implicitly" means there was no word to break. And she never got a chance to break her word. If I go down to the local bank with the intent to rob it, only to find it closed for the day, I go home, not to jail.

The most he said was 'this is kind of awkward.'
"...since Xykon said I wasn't supposed to let you..."

The MitD had confessed to aiding a lich in his massive evil plans. That is distinctly more than "this is kind of awkward."

Which, in itself, sort of implies that he's torn on the matter, and might be pursuaded to let her go with a little effort. It's worth a shot, certainly before resorting to attempts to kill sentient beings who were not directly threatening you.
It can be worth a shot, and quite possibly would have worked better. But worth a shot and mandatory are different things. The MitD has declared himself an ally of a great evil, and charged with the duty of stopping her in particular. Killing the jail guard to free prisoners of the evil power is not [necessarily] a sin. And yes, the guard is threatening, by the very fact of being the guard to keep the prisoner[s] there.

since when does snapping someone's vertebra count as a polite let-down?
Miko was not trying to be polite. She was trying to be clear, and was.

She snapped her neck. That is an assault.
Of course it is assault. So is pouring a drink on some lout who wants a kiss or digging your heel into the foot of the pushy salesman. And in each case, if the victim goes to a cop, he will laugh, say you got what you deserved, and walk off. If the victim insists on a citizen's arrest, the jury will laugh it out of the box, if it ever gets to them.
Sabine got her neck broken. A round later she was back on her feet, and a short time after that, she was back to normal. We are talking two for flinching here, petty crime on the level of jaywalking, if that high.

It doesn't matter what Miko's motive was. She used violent force. As a paladin, you give fair warning unless you have an overwhelming reason not to do so. What was Miko's overwhelming reason here? She was tetchy?
So where is this in the rules? And as noted, this does not in fact amount to a serious level of violence.

In letter, yes. In spirit, no. We are going to have to beg to differ on this point. In fact, I don't have to beg.
Of course you don't have to beg. But if you are ever facing a Miko with a legitimate right to use force, do not expect the court to listen to your complain that she didn't give you enough warning. The court will side with Miko.

she doesn't actually vent on the specific causes of her anger- she always picks another perceived wrong to focus her ire upon, as part of her pattern of spurious rationalisation.
Please explain. She seems to focus on the ones she deems in the wrong quite well. That she is frequently mistaken about this does not mean she is trying to shift any blame.

What Miko says she's angry about, and what she's actually angry about, are very different things. Which ain't no good therapeutically.
So just what was she actually angry about? As opposed to a party of suspicious characters who side with a blatent murderer, a lich, the wearer of the Red Cloak, and a ruler so deeply in violation of his duties of office that he can be immediately arrested by his own kin?

In Paladin Blues, just before strip 198, we have:
"...she sticks to her Lawful Good code, albeit sometimes by a razor-thin margin."
This does not say what you want it to say. The razor-thin margin is the exceptional action, not the normal one. The normal is in full compliance with her LG code.

I do nothing of the sort. I'm pointing out the standards of the group are far below what would be expected of a paladin. They are not a useful ethical comparison.
This is being entirely too strick as to what is required of a paladin. If behaving better than the LGs is not sufficient, you are pretty much taking seriously the joke that a paladin who doesn't fall should be condemned as fallen for that very reason.

which part of 'it was clear that she and Roy were completely incompatible' do you have trouble understanding? Rich says, quite clearly, that he had already decided the two would go their seperate ways before the Inn sequence ever began.
Now that statement follows "Originally, the Inn sequence was conceived as light romantic comedy... By the time strip #223 rolled around, though...", which modifies the meaning of " 'it was clear that she and Roy were completely incompatible". The light romantic comedy was thrown out. It does not say the romance was yet. Incompatible couples are just wonderful for comedy, which means the dropping of the plan for light romantic comedy does not mean dropping the plan for romance. Indeed, if we take the words of V as a hint of a future that didn't happen, the intent at that point was that Roy would continue to throw himself at Miko.

And there is good evidence to suggest that he was leading up to this transition well beforehand.
Alternately, there is good evidence that he was still trying to make it work somehow until well into the inn sequence.

The Wanderer

2008-01-27, 05:41 AM

So your idea is that the paladin has to be lawful stupid?

That's pretty much the job description of a good paladin.

Bad paladins are crazed, narcissistic religious fanatics.

To me, guessing which category Miko belongs in is pretty easy.

Callista

2008-01-27, 08:18 AM

Lawful *stupid*?! You simply cannot be stupid and be a good paladin. It's impossible. What happens when you have to think your way out of your first dilemma?

It takes a lot of brains to go by a code of honor and still get things done. A successful Paladin simply cannot be stupid. Thankfully in most cases, wisdom--that is, common sense--will do just as well; because a wise paladin, even with a 6 INT, would have the insight to ask for help from a more intelligent teammate (or from his deity, or even from his paladin's mount!). That's good, considering that INT is usually a dump stat for paladins.

Either that, or you'd better have a direct line to your deity to use when moral questions stump you. Thankfully, high-level paladins usually do.

Anyway, people have the wrong idea about paladins. They don't become paladins, and then have to live by the code of honor. They become paladins because they believed in that code, and lived by it, all along. The class and its benefits are just the result of the faith, goodness, and honor they'd have even if they never picked up a weapon.

Not that paladins aren't flawed. Actually, flaws are what make the character interesting. Miko, at one point, had enough faith, goodness, and honor to be called as a paladin (see the PHB--it's a call, not just a career choice). It might have been as an idealistic teenager; and she might've forgotten those things since then; but they were there once. In the afterlife, with time to think and no evil to fight, she'll eventually remember that. What she does with the information is up to her.

brilliantlight

2008-01-27, 10:12 AM

Exactly, there are specific instances in which the Paladin Code places additional requirements upon a Paladin which a Lawful Good character does not have, namely:

- respect legitimate authority.
- act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)
- help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends
- punish those who harm or threaten innocents,
- not willfully associate with those known to be evil.

If it isn't covered by one of these specific criteria (which attacking is not) then the standard is simply Lawful Good.

I must admit... your argument confuses me. It seems to be that Miko isn't allowed to do anything but be an utter moron in any conflict, any use of tactics or misdirection is illegal.

1) Miko isn't even a Paladin at this point! Why in the world are you still holding her to the Paladin code?
2) Even if she was, once Sabine demonstrates her evil intent (which she quite clearly did) the Paladin code explicitly charges Miko to punish her. The Paladin code requires Miko not to lie, it never requires her to tell the entirety of the truth, you are quite simply holding her to higher standards than the rules do.

I tend to only discuss debateable fact. Saying "I like Miko" doesn't help a conversation very much, as there is no debate that can come from that. "Well you should!" bleh.

Talking about specific reasons for disliking Miko can yield fruit, but far and wide, simply saying that you didn't enjoy the character is impossible to discuss, and when I read your post, it seemed mostly to be a dislike of the character. *shrug*

I wasn't trying to be rude, just explaining why I was just responding to a snippet.

Part of the problem is that people think paladins have to be either stoic, humorless and boring or raving religious fanatics. There is nothing wrong with paladins having a sense of humor or using sound military tatics. They can date, get married, drink within reason and have outside interests. I think it is in "sword and fist" where it states they can even use ambushes.

Oxymoron

2008-01-27, 10:31 AM

Ampersand

2008-01-27, 01:03 PM

That's pretty much the job description of a good paladin.

Please to explaining. Why do you think paladins should have to be morons (or "lawful stupid," whichever phrasing you prefer) in order to be "good" paladins?

For that matter, I honestly don't see why people keep quoting the Giant's comment that Miko "adhered to the paladin's code by a razor edge" as if it was a bad thing. Honestly, if every paladin followed the code to the letter, none of them would ever make it past first level...they'd either fall or get themselves killed. Wise man once said "Anyone capable of keeping their paladin powers should by definition fall for being a devious little bugger." Source of the quote, as mentioned previously, is Alfryd's sig. :smallsmile:

If you guys really want Miko to come back, stop making all the Miko threads.

It might just be my bias showing, but as I recall Back In the Day(tm) the vast majority of Miko posts opened with something along the lines of "GRRRRAARRGGGGHHHH! I HATE MIKO SO MUCH I WANT HER TO DIE AND THEN GET VIOLATED BY DEMONS IF SHE ISN'T TAKEN OUT I'LL STOP READING THE COMIC GRAAAHAHRRAHAAHH1!!11!11!1eleven!!1!!!"

Chances are there were an equal number started by people who supported Miko and I'm just not remembering them, though. Since I'm decidedly pro-Miko...go, pragmatic paladin!

Voyager

2008-01-27, 04:16 PM

I actually liked Miko's arc. While she herself was a pill, but it drove a tremendous amount of character development. For example, her fight with Belkar was, for me, the first time he came together as an interesting anti-hero. The whole trying to get Miko to kill him to lose her Paladinic powers was just evil. Before that, he was just talk, after that, he was a monster barely kept in check by the party.

On Paladins, and their interations with the party and DM, I sort of lost the thread when the massive quote trees started, so this may have been said before, but to me, the problem with the paladin class is you don't really control the charater.

Failure to abide by "The Rules" costs the charater all of its abilities, basically eliminating you from play until you "Redeem" yourself, but, as witnessed by this thread even, there are some many different interpretations of what "The Rules" and "Redemption" mean that any given action that is in accordance with one interpretation will invariable be in violation of another interpretation. Without enthusiastic DM cooperation, one invariably ends up having to rules-lawyer one's way through far to many encounters; that's just not fun for anyone involved. You just can't play a fun character when you're always looking over your shoulder.

Bazhel the Bloody-handed was a fun paladin; in DnD he would have been disbanded in the first fifteen pages.

Demented

2008-01-27, 05:31 PM

Not that paladins aren't flawed. Actually, flaws are what make the character interesting. Miko, at one point, had enough faith, goodness, and honor to be called as a paladin (see the PHB--it's a call, not just a career choice). It might have been as an idealistic teenager; and she might've forgotten those things since then; but they were there once. In the afterlife, with time to think and no evil to fight, she'll eventually remember that. What she does with the information is up to her.

She was inducted into the profession by Shojo, who needed a particularly impressionable Paladin. If not for him, she probably would've been a level 16 Monk, through-and-through. Probably with a level in Bard as well, due to her charisma.

Bard Miko. Heh.

It might just be my bias showing, but as I recall Back In the Day(tm) the vast majority of Miko posts opened with something along the lines of "GRRRRAARRGGGGHHHH! I HATE MIKO SO MUCH I WANT HER TO DIE AND THEN GET VIOLATED BY DEMONS IF SHE ISN'T TAKEN OUT I'LL STOP READING THE COMIC GRAAAHAHRRAHAAHH1!!11!11!1eleven!!1!!!"
That's pretty much how it was. Though, as far as I'm concerned, the trouble started when a few self-proclaimed white knights decided they needed to defend Miko. Up until that point, the haters were mostly restricted to 1-post joiners to the forum who were content with leaving most conversations intact. After that, Miko became the diety of quote ladders and thread-destroying arguments between two posters.

Yoritomo Himeko

2008-01-27, 05:51 PM

If you guys really want Miko to come back, stop making all the Miko threads. Miko-haters didn't hate Miko half as much as they hated all the threads about her. If Rich has planned to bring her back, he removed her temporary, so that people would get a break from her character. You're not helping :smallmad:

Yeah, but people are only making Miko threads because they are still interested in her. The only other characters that are still getting threads, (like Haley, Roy, and Belkar) are those that were featured in recent comics. It's been almost 8 months since her last appearance and people are still talking about her. The only other characters that gets that kind of attention are Redcloack, Xykon, and Roy.

Like her or not, she has made a huge impact on the strip. Maybe Rich will include a little something with her in "War and XP's."

Kish

2008-01-27, 07:18 PM

If Rich has planned to bring her back, he removed her temporary, so that people would get a break from her character. You're not helping :smallmad:
If Rich plans to bring her back--and that would surprise me very much--I'm quite certain "give people a break from her character" is not his reason for having her die.

rickvoid

2008-01-27, 08:28 PM

I'm torn.

I hated Miko. I cheered when I saw that she was in two pieces. It was a great death scene.

But. I still expected to see her in the afterlife. Because the fact is, as much as I enjoyed her fall, I want to see her stand back up and fix things. I'm not talking about making up/hooking up with Roy (I think it'd be awesome if Celia had made him a daddy after their night together, she's better for Roy anyway), I just mean that I want her to have a long talk with Roy about everything that happened.

And then she can go away. For good. And then somebody can remind Roy to look in on Celia.

Ooooh! Off topic thought!! Haley has Celia's talisman. Haley accidentaly breaks it, and a nervous Celia pops up. Nervous, because she thinks Roy called her and she's 3-4 months pregnant with his kid. Bam, Celia's back in the story, helping the order, so she can get Roy rezzed. That'd be friggen awesome!

multilis

2008-01-27, 09:03 PM

Miko the Great is coming back, but she first has to do a crossover into Erfworld. Wanda needs a little help to come back from the Dark Side. ;)

Voyager

2008-01-28, 05:16 AM

This hit me while I was going to sleep, so I'm giving up two of my five hours of sleep tonight to write this, but it seems to me that the core of Miko's fall was blindness; what better punishment that to see?

I could easily see the deities leaving her in limbo, or even roaming the streets of Azura until she figured out what she did wrong. What more fitting punishment that to watch the very people she wrongly accused cleaning up the mess she helped cause?

VetMichael

2008-01-28, 12:34 PM

I wished there was a "Banish Thoughts of a Miko Resurrection" spell.....I'd use it on this thread :smallbiggrin:

The Wanderer

2008-01-28, 02:29 PM

Please to explaining. Why do you think paladins should have to be morons (or "lawful stupid," whichever phrasing you prefer) in order to be "good" paladins?

Because every paladin who ever didn't fall or grasped what their code of honor meant and did believe in it and stuck to it rather than finding loopholes and every way to get around what they pledged is sacrificing an enormous amount of effectiveness in favor of that code. Which I think is admirable, but if the story is being done in an even semi-realistic fashion, any villain with a decent amount of savvy or cunning can find a hundred ways to exploit it.

In my experience paladins break down into two types: those who, when the villain is unarmed, on their knees, pleading for a second chance give it to them, (which a dumb villains can exploit by trying something, or a smart one can just wait to rebuild their enterprises), or those who smite and ask questions... well, pretty much never. And we saw how well that has worked right in this story.

(And both types are, to my point of view, incredibly weak against villains who either are content to manipulate things from behind the scenes, or those who rely on good PR to keep themselves out of trouble (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainWithGoodPublicity)).

Shatteredtower

2008-01-28, 10:30 PM

Moechi_Vill

2008-01-28, 11:52 PM

I completely and utterly agree with you, Grey Watcher, though I could in theory see something like this happening (though perhaps it could feature better dialogue than I'm capable of writing).

(After seeing his rotting corpse) :roy: Damn it. Guess I'm not getting resurrected.

:miko: (walks up to Roy) Hi Roy.

:roy: YOU?! What the hell are you doing here?!

:miko: I died destroying Lord Soon's gate.

:roy: Oh. Well, get the hell out of here, I have nothing to say to you.

:miko: You don't understand. I realize the error of my ways. It took dying to set me straight. (Long explanation follows that I don't have the patience to write now)

:roy: I find it hard to believe that Miko Miyazaki would turn over a new leaf.

:miko: Need proof? Well let me show you. (Smooch)

(Hot make-out session and bow chicka wow-wow ensues)

(Month passes, Roy and Miko are in bed together)

:roy: Wow. I guess being dead isn't so bad after all.

Voice from beyond — Roy ... We need you ... Come back ...

:roy: ****. I guess I'm needed. I can't believe I have to say goodbye like this ... or that I'll actually miss you.

:miko: Goodbye Roy. And ... I'm sorry for everything.

Remember, she has had a few months to think about things, so it's theoretically possible that she could have realized the error of her ways.

That said, I hope Miko never comes back. She served her purpose.

Roy was a total jerk. This would never happen.
More like Miko apologizes then PIMP SLAPS him then goes on for a page-long tirade on his faults.
Of course The Giant can't tell good guys worth snaps, even if they act like him and that AMD author.

Demented

2008-01-29, 03:33 AM

Roy was a total jerk. This would never happen.
More like Miko apologizes then PIMP SLAPS him then goes on for a page-long tirade on his faults.
Of course The Giant can't tell good guys worth snaps, even if they act like him and that AMD author.

:roy: "Yes, I have much to apologize for. At the risk of needing to apologize for yet another thing, I still don't see why I need to take this from someone whose crowning achievement was murdering her liege lord."

Alfryd

2008-01-29, 05:39 PM

@ David Argall

So far we have no evidence that what she considered reasonable under the circumstances of the ogre battle were other than reasonable.
I am obliged to point out, David, that a lack of evidence that X is false isn't evidence that X is true. Assuming, that is, evidence for X being false were lacking.

You are trying to surround 15-20 ogres with 6 people.
That's not the point. The intention is to be able to give the Ogres a reasonable idea of what to expect- you can even tell them the others are concealed, and/or that you have casters in the party- at which point, you can spring the trap without qualms about straining standards of honourable conduct. If they ignore your offer of surrender, you can then bombard them with AoE spells from your casters and mop up the survivors (as before.) The main point of difference here (compared with what actually happened) is that you're not ommitting so many pertinent tactical details in order to mislead your opponents, and you're making peaceful options more explicit. It's much better in-line with the spirit of the paladin code, while being only nominally more risky for all concerned (and much less rude.)

So your idea is that the paladin has to be lawful stupid?
I'm sorry, affording opponents fair warning and opportunity for surrender is an integral part of paladin conduct. If you believe adhering to those standards makes you Lawful Stupid, then so be it, but this is what paladins sign up to do in the first place. Looking for loopholes and escape clauses after the fact is not in line with the spirit of the profession.

If I go down to the local bank with the intent to rob it, only to find it closed for the day, I go home, not to jail.
I'm reminded of Sideshow Bob:
"'Attempted murder'? I mean, honestly, do they give the Nobel Prize for 'attempted chemistry'?"

Miko agreed to do something that she fully intended not to do, for her own benefit. That is deceit.

The MitD had confessed to aiding a lich in his massive evil plans. That is distinctly more than "this is kind of awkward."
Where, exactly? "Xykon said I wasn't supposed to let you" isn't the same as "if you don't stay put, I'll kill you", let alone "I serve my maniacal Lich master with glee and savour the dying screams of innocents!"

So where is this in the rules? And as noted, this does not in fact amount to a serious level of violence.
BREAKING SOMEONE'S NECK IS A SERIOUS LEVEL OF VIOLENCE.
As for 'the rules', well, fair warning comes udner the heading of general 'honourable conduct', which Miko belabours the importance of just before her scrap with the Ogres, so it's safe to say that's an important element of her personal code as well.

...do not expect the court to listen to your complain that she didn't give you enough warning. The court will side with Miko.
[Diplomacy] can be worth a shot, and quite possibly would have worked better. But worth a shot and mandatory are different things.
The limits of what Miko is technically entitled to do are irrelevant here. The point is that Miko was also fully entitled to pursue options better in-keeping with the spirit of her code, and chose not to.

Please explain. She seems to focus on the ones she deems in the wrong quite well. That she is frequently mistaken about this does not mean she is trying to shift any blame...
So just what was she actually angry about? As opposed to a party of suspicious characters who side with a blatent murderer, a lich, the wearer of the Red Cloak, and a ruler so deeply in violation of his duties of office that he can be immediately arrested by his own kin?
Ah, but here you miss the most obvious cue. The fact that Miko's rationalisations are so clearly off the rails is the most glaring sign that she is not in touch with the true sources of her Rage. Roy and Shojo were not in league with Xykon, and the available evidence to suggest that they were was either scant or contradictory. Miko concocts an elaborate conspiracy fantasy in order to permit her to vent her rage in what she considers a justified fashion- but it isn't the true source of her anger. If it were, she wouldn't need to inhabit the fantasy.

This does not say what you want it to say. The razor-thin margin is the exceptional action, not the normal one. The normal is in full compliance with her LG code.
Well sure- I mean, there's all that time she spends asleep, or knitting decorative kettle-warmers, or mixing porridge- I mean, that's easily 75% of her free time, right there.
The exceptions to comfortable compliance are, to be specific, usually those occasions when Miko finds her code even slightly inconvenient- i.e, when it matters a damn.

Besides, if you a more through run-down on Rich's comments (From Paladin Blues:)

"The sequence with the Ogres was designed strictly to give readers a taste of what Miko was all about."
"Miko is not the one and only way to play a paladin; if anything, she's one of the WORST ways to play a paladin."
"The very concept that other people don't need to do as they're told is foreign to her, which is how her Lawfulness most strongly represents itself."

(In fact, the general prognosis for Miko's future role in the strip is pretty darned grim- Rich has this to say regarding the trial sequence:)
"...it brings the seminal confrontation with Miko, finally defining her role from this point forward... Any future meetings with the paladin will almost certainly be as direct adversaries... [Belkar manages] to isolate [Miko] and ensure that she would never be able to work alongside them as an ally again."

(We also have some of Rich's forum commentary, though this is less authoritative:)
"If you want to argue that Miko is only borderline Good, go ahead; that is, in many ways the very point of the character and the main thrust of #251."
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=292847&postcount=649

This is being entirely too strick as to what is required of a paladin.
David, I am well aware that you have some... extremely generous ideas about what paladins can perpetrate without overstepping the bounds of good sense and manners, so I have absolutely no intention of debating this point with you. We will simply have to agree that we apply very different standards to paladin conduct in this regard, and leave it at that.

The light romantic comedy was thrown out. It does not say the romance was yet.
David, I have honestly tried very hard to see what the hell you could possibly be talking about, how you might conceivably stretch the interpretation of this remark to mean something other than what it most obviously says, and failed. "Completely Incompatible" does not mean "odd couple". It means that romance is off the table.

Alternately, there is good evidence that he was still trying to make it work somehow until well into the inn sequence.
David, I am obliged to point out you are applying double standards. If V and Roy make comments that indicate Roy/Miko is not to be, you assume that's just the character's opinion, but if Roy makes an offhand remark that he's still interested, you assume this echoes the writer's purposed intent. Why would the converse not apply?
Roy Greenhilt remains interested in a Miko-romance-subplot until well into the Inn sequence. Rich Burlewe has made it perfectly clear the possibility was foreclosed before the Inn sequence ever started. There is nothing further to debate.

Alfryd

2008-01-29, 05:42 PM

@ FujinAkari

The Paladin Code requires that Miko punish the evil, simply leaving them there is not an option.
How is taking their weapons and evicting them from their caves not a viable punishment? The paladin code also requires that you show mercy and restraint toward surrendered foes.

Could have, but certainly not required too. Again the paladin code REQUIRES Miko to punish the monster, once he identifies himself as a willing minion of Xykon.
I believe ths specific clause is "punish those who harm or threaten innocents," but who, exactly, is the MitD intent on harming or threatening at this juncture? Besides, if Miko were able to pursuade the MitD to step aside, that kind of begs the question of whether he's a loyal minion of Xykon's in the first place. I certainly believe at least attempting conversational options would be better in-keeping with the spirit of Lawful Good in general.

Except that it defines honor as "not lying." Omitting facts is still telling the truth, possibly not the whole truth, but nonetheless the truth.
By the letter, yes, in spirit, no.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true.
No, the fact that Miko agreed to something she had no intention whatsoever of doing does. She made a statement that she knew had nothing to do with reality for her own gain. That. Is. Called. A. Lie.

Can you please direct me to what part of the Paladin Code specifies this? I don't seem to see it.
The question is whether Miko is required to behave honorably to evil creatures...
A code you adhere to strictly when convenient isn't a code at all.

Alfryd

2008-01-29, 05:44 PM

Anyway, people have the wrong idea about paladins. They don't become paladins, and then have to live by the code of honor. They become paladins because they believed in that code, and lived by it, all along. The class and its benefits are just the result of the faith, goodness, and honor they'd have even if they never picked up a weapon.
Yes. This is something that many people seem to misunderstand about Miko- the very fact that she's a paladin, (or Lawful Good for that matter,) implies that, somewhere, deep down, there has to be a genuine concern for the well-being of other sentient creatures. You can't just don the mantle of the class and uphold it's tenets solely for the sake of their fringe benefits- alignment does not work that way.

She was inducted into the profession by Shojo, who needed a particularly impressionable Paladin.
Morbo?-
ALIGNMENT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!

Thank you.

I think it is in "sword and fist" where it states they can even use ambushes.
Eh... not normally, no.

For that matter, I honestly don't see why people keep quoting the Giant's comment that Miko "adhered to the paladin's code by a razor edge" as if it was a bad thing.
It's a good thing in moderation, or when used strictly for the greater good (or at least overall fulfillment of duties.) The problem is that Miko hasn't really upheld the lofty standard of 'moral utility' either. I mean, if Miko applied a fraction of the perseverance and invention she exerts in demolishing foes toward accomodating friends and allies, she'd be a saint. *sigh*

Failure to abide by "The Rules" costs the charater all of its abilities, basically eliminating you from play until you "Redeem" yourself...
It'll cost the party cleric 500 XP, provided you can fake an apology. Get over it.

Demented

2008-01-29, 07:14 PM

Morbo?-
ALIGNMENT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!

Thank you.

"Being good or evil can be a conscious choice." -SRD
"Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice..." -SRD
"A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act." -SRD
"You follow the letter of the alignment description while ignoring its intent." -Roy

Alignment does indeed work that way.
(Succubus Paladins are not unheard of.)

Though, I don't see how alignment got involved, when my post never directly said that she wasn't Lawful Good already. (Ah, technicalities and hedged bets, how ever will they fail?)

FujinAkari

2008-01-29, 09:58 PM

@ FujinAkariHow is taking their weapons and evicting them from their caves not a viable punishment?Precisely what army is Miko supposed to use in order to evict them? Say "Pretty pretty please don't come back?"

The paladin code also requires that you show mercy and restraint toward surrendered foes.What? Where? Mercy isn't even mentioned in the Paladin code!

I believe ths specific clause is "punish those who harm or threaten innocents," but who, exactly, is the MitD intent on harming or threatening at this juncture?As a willing minion of Xykon, he is currently threatening the entirety of Azure City by leading an army of hobgoblins and undead against it.

Besides, if Miko were able to pursuade the MitD to step aside, that kind of begs the question of whether he's a loyal minion of Xykon's in the first place. I certainly believe at least attempting conversational options would be better in-keeping with the spirit of Lawful Good in general.You seem to be confusing what is allowed with what is required.

By the letter, yes, in spirit, no.The letter is all that matters, anything beyond what is literally required is merely your bias.

No, the fact that Miko agreed to something she had no intention whatsoever of doing does. She made a statement that she knew had nothing to do with reality for her own gain. That. Is. Called. A. Lie.She agreed to play a game, she never agreed to try and win.

A code you adhere to strictly when convenient isn't a code at all.I take your refusal to actually answer the question as a concedence.

Let me put it another way:

If I am bound by a code that requires me to be kind and honest with people, and also to punch blonde people as hard as I can, am I supposed to be kind to blonde people, or is the second condition an exception to the first?

I would say the code doesn't ACTUALLY expect me to be kind AND punchy to blonde people.

The Paladin code requires you to be honorable to people, and to bring down divine retribution on the wicked. I interpret that as that the wicked do not deserve the same respect and honor, and Miko apparently does too.

Mugen Nightgale

2008-01-29, 10:00 PM

I hope not.

Quorothorn

2008-01-29, 10:47 PM

I'm rather conflicted about this with regards to wanting this to happen or not: I do not like Miko, at all, but she caused some interesting things to happen, and there would be potential for interesting plotlines if she came back.

As for likelihood...I really can't say. Her death scene certainly allows for that to be it, Teh End...but there's still room for a return.

To end this pretty useless post: I'm just going to sit back and watch and trust in teh power of teh Giant.

Oh wait, one more thing.

This hit me while I was going to sleep, so I'm giving up two of my five hours of sleep tonight to write this, but it seems to me that the core of Miko's fall was blindness; what better punishment that to see?

I could easily see the deities leaving her in limbo, or even roaming the streets of Azura until she figured out what she did wrong. What more fitting punishment that to watch the very people she wrongly accused cleaning up the mess she helped cause?

That is a good idea.

vivi

2008-01-29, 10:50 PM

Yet another Miko thread. Just let her R.I.P. and then she'll return, if you keep discussing it, then Rich will never bring her back

FujinAkari

2008-01-29, 10:54 PM

Yet another Miko thread. Just let her R.I.P. and then she'll return, if you keep discussing it, then Rich will never bring her back

Yes... because we ALL know that authors only pay attention to characters that nobody talks about...

teratorn

2008-01-30, 02:25 PM

Yet another Miko thread. Just let her R.I.P. and then she'll return, if you keep discussing it, then Rich will never bring her back

The thing is, if Rich brings her back, the forums will explode...

The Wanderer

2008-01-30, 02:59 PM

Yes... because we ALL know that authors only pay attention to characters that nobody talks about...

Well, some Miko fans seem to feel that Miko's greatest crime was being discussed more than the main party.

Originally posted by Ampersand:

As much as I'd like Miko back, I don't think she will be. Miko is a breakout character...only, ya'know, sorta in reverse. She committed the ultimate sin for a fictional character: she began overshadowing the protagonists.

...

I really think that the Giant had no idea Miko would cause such controversy. When she came to dominate the forums to the exclusion of the Order, he quickly revised his plans for her (or maybe not so quickly...I agree with David's point out that around ~240 or so we start seeing hostility towards Miko from the party that's completely out of proportion with what we've seen her do). When a secondary character overshadows the protagonists, the two main options are to make the protagonists more interesting to compensate, or to get rid of the offending character

Ampersand

2008-01-30, 03:46 PM

Because every paladin who ever didn't fall or grasped what their code of honor meant and did believe in it and stuck to it rather than finding loopholes and every way to get around what they pledged is sacrificing an enormous amount of effectiveness in favor of that code.

Which is exactly why following the code to the spirit any more than is necessarily is patently moronic. Yes, as a paladin you should follow the code as much as is practical, but you should be open to, ahem, "creative interpretation" the instant following it will put you at a disadvantage or give your enemy an advantage. A living paladin who's bent the spirit of the code a bit is much better than one who followed the code to the letter and wound up dead or magically enslaved for it.

Which I think is admirable, but if the story is being done in an even semi-realistic fashion, any villain with a decent amount of savvy or cunning can find a hundred ways to exploit it.

So you see why slavishly following an arbitrary code doesn't work in the "reality" of field missions. Practicality demands flexibility, and any deity/Dungeon Master that's not a total prick will allow it.

In my experience paladins break down into two types: those who, when the villain is unarmed, on their knees, pleading for a second chance give it to them, (which a dumb villains can exploit by trying something, or a smart one can just wait to rebuild their enterprises), or those who smite and ask questions... well, pretty much never. And we saw how well that has worked right in this story.

I'd say that, in that situation, the practical paladin hits them on the side of the head with the hilt of their sword, hopefully rendering them unconscious. The villain is then bound and gagged and hauled back to civilization to appear before a lawful court, assuming doing so is reasonably doable without taking unnecessary risks or inconvenience. Any resistance or escape attempts would constitute a knowing waver of their right to a trial, allowing any punishment up to and including immediate execution as the arresting paladin sees fit. I, personally, would be lenient and not resort to execution until the second episode, but that's more out of foolish compassion and allowing them the opportunity to cooperate rather than any sense of practicality.

Well, some Miko fans seem to feel that Miko's greatest crime was being discussed more than the main party.

I would ask that you only quote my arguments in the context they are given. Please do not attempt to make a character based rebuttal against my clearly metafictional argument, unless you can somehow logically connect the two.

The Wanderer

2008-01-30, 04:34 PM

Which is exactly why following the code to the spirit any more than is necessarily is patently moronic. Yes, as a paladin you should follow the code as much as is practical, but you should be open to, ahem, "creative interpretation" the instant following it will put you at a disadvantage or give your enemy an advantage. A living paladin who's bent the spirit of the code a bit is much better than one who followed the code to the letter and wound up dead or magically enslaved for it.

I agree about the need for flexibility 100%. Every situation is fluid and unique, with individual factors in it. However, I also tend to view pledging oneself to something, giving your word, or taking up a cause very seriously. If you do so, then you should mean it. If you're looking for loopholes in a code right after you pledge yourself to it, then you shouldn't have sworn yourself to it in the first place. I would say in that circumstance it would be far better to say something along the lines of "I respect that code of behavior a lot, but it's not quite right for me. Rather than pledging myself to it and coming to some moral dilemma where I either have to go against the code or what I personally believe would be the right thing to do, I'll just stick to having respect for that code and those who uphold it, and doing what I feel is right".

Or, in more general and meta terms, a player in a game, (or character in a fictional story), should really think if it's right for them to be a paladin, and to be play/live by what it means, or if they'll do more good as, say, a lawful good fighter. (Or whatever other multi-class they might go with). (Also, that first line sounds to me like you agree that a paladin actually following the spirit of what it means to be a paladin = lawful stupid :smallwink: ).

As much as I hate bringing out the slippery slope arguments, saying "I pledge to act as according to this code of conduct... unless I really need to do something forbidden by it. And the same for every time after that too" doesn't really work for me. And it tends to wind up bending until long after the breaking point.

Me:

In my experience paladins break down into two types: those who, when the villain is unarmed, on their knees, pleading for a second chance give it to them, (which a dumb villains can exploit by trying something, or a smart one can just wait to rebuild their enterprises), or those who smite and ask questions... well, pretty much never. And we saw how well that has worked right in this story.

Ampersand:

I'd say that, in that situation, the practical paladin hits them on the side of the head with the hilt of their sword, hopefully rendering them unconscious. The villain is then bound and gagged and hauled back to civilization to appear before a lawful court, assuming doing so is reasonably doable without taking unnecessary risks or inconvenience. Any resistance or escape attempts would constitute a knowing waver of their right to a trial, allowing any punishment up to and including immediate execution as the arresting paladin sees fit. I, personally, would be lenient and not resort to execution until the second episode, but that's more out of foolish compassion and allowing them the opportunity to cooperate rather than any sense of practicality.

While I'm a disagree a bit about the value of compassion, (personally I find it to be the highest virtue in human beings, and an exercise of it to be a major sign of a truly good person), I'm mostly in agreement with how you lay out the scenario. However, what if said evil-doer is easily rich enough to bribe the court? Is a ruler or influential figure in the land of said court, even a respected hero? A relative of ruler? Or just a Lex Luthor type villain who is both clever enough not to leave his fingerprints anywhere and rich enough to bribe his way out of trouble?

Does a paladin march into the city square, shout at the top of their lungs that, say, a King murdered people for no cause, or is part of conspiracy to go to war with another country under false pretexts? They'd get laughed down. What's next, storming the gates of the palace, fighting the guards and dragging the King before a judge he appointed for trial? (This is one of the few times when I lean towards utilitarianism. If I was Supes there would have come a point where I said to Lex "If you get free again you'll cause more trouble and kill or hurt more innocent people in the process. So, sorry about this" and then turn old Lex into a puddle on the ground).

The best villains are sneaky bastards, and it requires someone able to think along the same lines to bring them down, usually. Sometimes that might mean some dishonorable and downright wrong like, say, just assassinating the person in question. Refer to my earlier bit on why, if you're not willing to do that from the outset, you don't get the option of saying "Screw the rules" halfway through. You can if it's worth falling, but don't expect to not get a penalty because you had good intentions or did it for the right reasons. (And if you weren't willing to accept that from the start, then again, really a LG Fighter would have been a better way to go).

I would ask that you only quote my arguments in the context they are given. Please do not attempt to make a character based rebuttal against my clearly metafictional argument, unless you can somehow logically connect the two.

... um, I was just trying to not take up the entire page. I don't see how I could have provided more context, with the sole exception being including the part where you admit it was baseless speculation. (Or said that it was a purely metfictional argument, but I thought people could figure that one out). If you prefer though in the future I'll stick to something like this, of quoting the entire thing and bolding the parts that are relevant. I just think the selected quote more to the point...

Nightgaunt

2008-01-30, 06:04 PM

While I'm a disagree a bit about the value of compassion, (personally I find it to be the highest virtue in human beings, and an exercise of it to be a major sign of a truly good person), I'm mostly in agreement with how you lay out the scenario. However, what if said evil-doer is easily rich enough to bribe the court? Is a ruler or influential figure in the land of said court, even a respected hero? A relative of ruler? Or just a Lex Luthor type villain who is both clever enough not to leave his fingerprints anywhere and rich enough to bribe his way out of trouble?

Please turn your Players Handbook to page 105, top of the page.

Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and protects the innocent without hesitation, is lawful good.

Now let me ask you, what do you think of when you see Without Mercy in the description of the right and proper actions of a Lawful Good Paladin? Doesn't it seem that perhaps not offering mercy would allow you to kill someone who is begging for mercy?

David Argall

2008-01-30, 06:19 PM

I am obliged to point out that a lack of evidence that X is false isn't evidence that X is true. Assuming, that is, evidence for X being false were lacking.
Miko’s plan turned what was apparently a difficult encounter to a hand-wave. So we do have the evidence that X is true, and we need counter-evidence against that.

The intention is to be able to give the Ogres a reasonable idea of what to expect- you can even tell them the others are concealed, and/or that you have casters in the party- at which point, you can spring the trap without qualms about straining standards of honourable conduct.
Also without much hope of victory.

If they ignore your offer of surrender, you can then bombard them with AoE spells from your casters and mop up the survivors (as before.) The main point of difference here (compared with what actually happened) is that you're not ommitting so many pertinent tactical details in order to mislead your opponents, and you're making peaceful options more explicit. It's much better in-line with the spirit of the paladin code, while being only nominally more risky for all concerned (and much less rude.)
The risk is far more than nominal. Miko’s plan concentrated the ogres and thus allowed V and Durkon to impose maximum damage on the foe. The immediate result of this strategy would be to scatter the ogres, making the area spells less effective.

Nor is this making peaceful tactics more explicit. The ogres would see a serious foe they must fight, but not one they would feel unable to defeat. This makes peaceful surrender unlikely in the extreme.
Miko’s plan actually made a fight less likely. She seems a harmless foe, rather like a chihuahua, and something that deserving foes would not attack despite her pugnacious attitude. The party by contrast looks more like a great dane, and plenty of foes will respond to the threats with violence.

affording opponents fair warning and opportunity for surrender is an integral part of paladin conduct.
But that is what Miko gave them. She didn’t tell them her combat abilities? So what? She had announced her intentions, and by any honorable standard, they should not be attacking her. It’s irrelevant.

Let us consider Hinjo here. He did not try to bargain with Xykon, and he does not warn him that going into the throne room would be dangerous. So he is really not behaving much different from Miko.

I'm reminded of Sideshow Bob:
"'Attempted murder'? I mean, honestly, do they give the Nobel Prize for 'attempted chemistry'?"
The logic of the quote runs in my direction. It argues that attempted crime is no crime, which here means Miko is without fault.

Miko agreed to do something that she fully intended not to do, for her own benefit. That is deceit.
What did she agree to that she didn’t intend? That she was going to play to win? Where does she say that? Indeed, one often does not play to win.

"Xykon said I wasn't supposed to let you" isn't the same as "if you don't stay put, I'll kill you", let alone "I serve my maniacal Lich master with glee and savour the dying screams of innocents!"
Miko, with a fair degree of accuracy, saw the difference as rather trivial. A huge number of innocents would likely die if she was stopped. She is to allow that because she is not entirely certain of the MitD’s alignment? The MitD said it was carrying out the lich’s orders. That would be enough in most courts of law.

BREAKING SOMEONE'S NECK IS A SERIOUS LEVEL OF VIOLENCE.
Neither Sabine nor Miko consider it so in this case. And since Sabine, as expected, recovers rapidly from the damage, neither would a fair court.

The limits of what Miko is technically entitled to do are irrelevant here. The point is that Miko was also fully entitled to pursue options better in-keeping with the spirit of her code, and chose not to.
You are trying to condemn Miko with misdemeanor charges.

We can note here that D&D now has the Knight PC class, which has a stated code of honor, and penalties for failing to follow it. That in turn means the unstated sins, to the extent we even consider them sins at all, in the case of the paladin have to be judged less severely.

The fact that Miko's rationalisations are so clearly off the rails is the most glaring sign that she is not in touch with the true sources of her Rage. Roy and Shojo were not in league with Xykon, and the available evidence to suggest that they were was either scant or contradictory. Miko concocts an elaborate conspiracy fantasy in order to permit her to vent her rage in what she considers a justified fashion- but it isn't the true source of her anger. If it were, she wouldn't need to inhabit the fantasy.
Now there are several problems with this. The basic is that it amounts to saying that any time somebody makes a mistake, it must be because he was inhabiting some fantasy, and not because he made some mistake. There really isn’t a way to prove there is no such fantasy, which makes this a god call, and to be rejected nearly out of hand.
Nor do we need any such unknown source of rage. Miko is mad at both Shojo and the party for known reasons, and blaming those you are mad at for anything whatsoever is a common human failing.
And her elaborate fantasy is not particularly elaborate. What it did was explain a number of facts, that the party, murders and friends of murderers, had “lied” about killing Xykon, who had been in contact with the party [It was a jump to deem it friendly contact, but Xykon doesn’t leave many unfriendly contacts alive and he was not expressing undying hatred of them], that Shojo was in illegal conspiracy with them, and that Xykon was about to attack the city. That they were all in this together is an idea that leads quickly to any mind.

Well sure- I mean, there's all that time she spends asleep, or knitting decorative kettle-warmers, or mixing porridge- I mean, that's easily 75% of her free time, right there.
The exceptions to comfortable compliance are, to be specific, usually those occasions when Miko finds her code even slightly inconvenient- i.e, when it matters a damn.
Would you really speak that way if that was the case?
If somebody is on the edge every time it mattered, would you count the times it didn’t matter? Or would you say he is always pushing the border?

Besides, if you a more through run-down on Rich's comments (From Paladin Blues:)

"The sequence with the Ogres was designed strictly to give readers a taste of what Miko was all about."
"Miko is not the one and only way to play a paladin; if anything, she's one of the WORST ways to play a paladin."
"The very concept that other people don't need to do as they're told is foreign to her, which is how her Lawfulness most strongly represents itself."
Again, the more you give the context, the more you hurt your own case. The objection here is that Miko orders people around, not that she uses underhanded tactics in combat.

(We also have some of Rich's forum commentary, though this is less authoritative:)
"If you want to argue that Miko is only borderline Good, go ahead; that is, in many ways the very point of the character and the main thrust of #251."
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=649
But we are considering points of honor here, law, not goodness, and so this reference backs me up.

I am well aware that you have some... extremely generous ideas about what paladins can perpetrate without overstepping the bounds of good sense and manners, so I have absolutely no intention of debating this point with you. We will simply have to agree that we apply very different standards to paladin conduct in this regard, and leave it at that.
As has been noted many a time before, Miko does not fall until she kills Shojo, which is evidence that the “extremely generous” ideas are the correct ones.

I have honestly tried very hard to see what the hell you could possibly be talking about, how you might conceivably stretch the interpretation of this remark to mean something other than what it most obviously says, and failed. "Completely Incompatible" does not mean "odd couple". It means that romance is off the table.
But it does not. It only means the particular type of romance was excluded, and others may or may not be. Since romance between the completely incompatible has very high comic potential, the idea that this must mean all romance is out is clearly wrong. It can mean so, and eventually did in this case, but it does not mean it was at all clearly the case.

you are applying double standards. If V and Roy make comments that indicate Roy/Miko is not to be, you assume that's just the character's opinion, but if Roy makes an offhand remark that he's still interested, you assume this echoes the writer's purposed intent. Why would the converse not apply?
The negative offhand remarks are by no means incompatible with the idea of a continued Roy/Miko romance. They merely indicate such a romance will not run smoothly.

There is nothing further to debate.
It is interesting how often those saying such seem to mean “You shut up.” And continue to debate for a long time if one does not.

How is taking their weapons and evicting them from their caves not a viable punishment? The paladin code also requires that you show mercy and restraint toward surrendered foes.
The ogres did not surrender and were quite unlikely to do so

I believe ths specific clause is "punish those who harm or threaten innocents," but who, exactly, is the MitD intent on harming or threatening at this juncture?
He is rather obviously a co-conspirator and gets punished in any court.

What? Where? Mercy isn't even mentioned in the Paladin code!
Mercy is praised rather highly in BED and should be considered to be in the code, but does not extend it to those who refuse to ask for it, nor really to those with no intent to reform. Which means Miko had no duty to extend mercy to the Ogres.

The Extinguisher

2008-01-30, 06:44 PM

On your last point there:

Being Exalted is in no way required to be a paladin. And it's really the number one cause of dislikeable paladins. Paladins should be a bit more real characters than the BoED allows them.

VetMichael

2008-01-30, 08:11 PM

*crossing his fingers and whispering over and over again* please let her stay dead, please let her stay dead.

Alfryd

2008-01-30, 09:03 PM

@ David Argall

Neither Sabine nor Miko consider it so in this case...
There is no evidence for this.

Would you really speak that way if that was the case?
Given that it is the case, and I am... yeah- I'll go with yes.

We can note here that D&D now has the Knight PC class...
I fail to see the relevance.

Miko does not fall until she kills Shojo...
Again, I have no intention of debating this point with you, which refers to a quite different context.

You are trying to condemn Miko with misdemeanor charges.
What now? I'm pointing out that Miko adheres to the letter, but not the spirit, of her code. I believe I have taken some pains to be very clear on this point, David.

Miko’s plan turned what was apparently a difficult encounter to a hand-wave. So we do have the evidence that X is true, and we need counter-evidence against that.
As I have repeatedly touched upon, David, you are confusing reasonable in the tactical sense with reasonable in the spiritual sense. Neither of us are stupid, so do not confuse the issue.

Also without much hope of victory. ...The risk is far more than nominal. Miko’s plan concentrated the ogres...
There is nothing whatsoever to prevent you from allowing the Ogres to congregate before you inform them that they are surrounded by heavy casters, nor are you required to permit them to split up and search the area after that announcement.

The ogres did not surrender and were quite unlikely to do so...
This makes peaceful surrender unlikely in the extreme.
Oh, it's highly unlikely that the Ogres would surrender, but that's their own decision. You've told them all the pertinent facts of the situation and made peaceful options explicit- if they don't want to take your word for it, then it's on their heads when they're basted at 700 degrees.

But that is what Miko gave them.
By the letter, yes, in spirit, no. Miko was deliberately counting on the Ogres' being unaware of the Order's presence to provide her with a tactical edge. (I find this particularly... odd... given Miko apparently considers sneak attacks or flanking to be inherently dishonourable.) Also, while the Ogres had plenty of time to make overtures of truce, Miko never makes any herself, and as the paladin, she really should take the initiative on that score.

The logic of the quote runs in my direction. It argues that attempted crime is no crime, which here means Miko is without fault.
Uh... David? You still get locked up for attempted murder.
Attempted deceit is just as dishonourable as actual deceit.

What did she agree to that she didn’t intend? That she was going to play to win? Where does she say that? Indeed, one often does not play to win.
David, if your object is to do the exact opposite of what the rules of the game plainly state, you're not playing the game at all. Therefore, by even the most miserly interpretation, Miko lied. And she sure as hell did so in spirit.

He is rather obviously a co-conspirator and gets punished in any court...
Miko, with a fair degree of accuracy, saw the difference as rather trivial. A huge number of innocents would likely die if she was stopped.
15 seconds of further conversation was not going to seriously impact the situation- particularly when she found herself completely unable to injure the beast after her first assault. By that point, she really had no excuse for not at least attempting negotiation- given her message was so important, she should not have been risking heavy combat unless strictly neccesary.

Now there are several problems with this. The basic is that it amounts to saying that any time somebody makes a mistake, it must be because he was inhabiting some fantasy, and not because he made some mistake.
No. When someone starts spewing fantastically elaborate conspiracy theories with almost no reliable evidence, that is the sign they are inhabiting a fantasy.

Nor do we need any such unknown source of rage.
We clearly do, since the reasons Miko gave explicitly don't add up. Sure, there are perfectly viable proximate explanations- a sense of betrayal for being lied to all those years, brutal romantic rejection etc, etc. -but those are not the reasons that Miko gives.

What it did was explain a number of facts...
The individual links in the chain of inference were plausible enough, if not entirely likely, but the whole is only as probable as the product of it's parts- (i.e, not very.) Moreover, Miko later receives data that rather contradicts her analysis (even if she fails to acknowledge it,) when Roy prevents her from finishing Hinjo- which makes no sense if Roy is seeking to destroy the city.

Again, the more you give the context, the more you hurt your own case. The objection here is that Miko orders people around, not that she uses underhanded tactics in combat.
The point is that A. Miko's conduct with the Ogres is indicative of her conduct is general, B. she is not a good example of paladinship in general, and C. she isn't even terribly Lawful Good (her strongest Lawful quality is peremptorily assuming that other people will do what she says, which in fact does little to promote discipline.)

To me, that adds up to saying pretty clearly that Miko only sticks to her LG code of conduct by a rather thin margin.

Let us consider Hinjo here. He did not try to bargain with Xykon, and he does not warn him that going into the throne room would be dangerous. So he is really not behaving much different from Miko.
Hinjo, I have an entirely different set of problems with, but I am not going to discuss the subject here. Suffice it to say I don't consider Hinjo's executive decisions to be either morally or tactically ironclad by any stretch.

It is interesting how often those saying such seem to mean “You shut up.” And continue to debate for a long time if one does not.
David, your patent refusal to accept the patently obvious does not constitute an argument, so no, we're not debating. I am simply telling you until you listen.

You were trying to argue that Rich changed his mind about romantic entanglement between Roy and Miko during the Inn sequence, because of some alleged sudden lurch in narrative structure, which is simply not in evidence- and directly contradicted by the writer's own commentary.

...romance between the completely incompatible has very high comic potential...
"....it was obvious to me that light romantic comedy was not what Miko was about."

Quorothorn

2008-01-30, 09:21 PM

...Wow, does this always happen when Miko is mentioned? :smalleek:

FujinAkari

2008-01-30, 09:27 PM

By the letter, yes, in spirit, no. Miko was deliberately counting on the Ogres' being unaware of the Order's presence to provide her with a tactical edge. (I find this particularly... odd... given Miko apparently considers sneak attacks or flanking to be inherently dishonourable.)

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. The Order is standing in plain sight about 5' behind Miko making absolutely no attempt to hide themselves. Claiming that Miko is -counting- on the Ogres being unaware of them is a ridiculous claim. While you can say Miko didn't make it abundantly clear that they would be fighting, I could respond that they are heavily armed and arrived with Miko, it is assumed.

Review (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html) the comic, since you seem to think the Order was somehow hidden. ((This comic and the next one shows the attack, the second actually gives a better representation of their positioning))

Rayzin

2008-01-30, 09:34 PM

Miko should come back. Its funnier that way. Besides this is about if she comes back right? Not long alignment arguments.

LONG ARGUMENTS SUCK ARE BORING AND... uhh.. THEY SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1>= P

The Wanderer

2008-01-30, 10:12 PM

Now let me ask you, what do you think of when you see Without Mercy in the description of the right and proper actions of a Lawful Good Paladin?

Given my experience with both religion and with people in general, I see someone just as dangerous as the forces they claim to oppose. :smallwink: :smalltongue: (Don't make me drag out Nietzsche quotes).

Doesn't it seem that perhaps not offering mercy would allow you to kill someone who is begging for mercy?

If that works for you, then fine. For me it doesn't work, especially not for someone who is supposed to be a paragon of goodness. Aside from the situations I laid out above, (where you know for a fact that there is no way to make charges stick or see justice done, and that more people would be hurt because of it, [and which, in turn, ultimately means you'd bear some weight for that happening]), I'm more of the Mal Reynolds school of thought: "Son, if I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be armed, and you'll be facing me".

Again there are situations tactically where it would definitely call more practical matters: say you've caught an enemy group that is larger than yours and armed to the teeth. I have no problem with letting them go to sleep and ambushing them during the night. Same for a battle situation. But for a one on one, when you've beaten someone to the point that they can't fight back anymore and are surrendering, going ahead and killing them is as wrong as can be.

Demented

2008-01-30, 11:26 PM

If these opposing perspectives on Paladins should take form and ever meet, the result would be hilarious.

Paladin A: "You know, that Kobold you captured is pinging evil."

Paladin B: "Who? You mean Rog–"

*Paladin A kills Roger the Kobold*

Paladin B: "On no! No no no no!"

Paladin A: "Sweet. I didn't fall that time either."

teratorn

2008-01-31, 12:02 AM

...Wow, does this always happen when Miko is mentioned? :smalleek:
Don't forget the Miko Fan Club mantra: "All threads should be Miko threads."

In the good old days half of the threads in the main page where about Miko. The others were "V's gender" or "Belkar is not evil" threads. Oh, and there used to be pols, with a "me loves thog" option. I miss the pols...

She'll be back and the righteous will rejoice and bask on the immense glory radiating from her lovely face.

FujinAkari

2008-01-31, 03:11 AM

Don't forget the Miko Fan Club mantra: "All threads should be Miko threads."

Thats not really fair... her name is in the thread title. This can hardly be called a hijack :P

David Argall

2008-01-31, 03:42 PM

The Order is standing in plain sight about 5' behind Miko making absolutely no attempt to hide themselves.

You are allowing art to overrule reality here. As we can see from Roy's initial plan, the party is assuming it can sneak up on the guards, which means the party is hidden at that point, and thereafter does nothing to become unhidden. The picture of V & Durkon tossing their spells is a case of the empty space just not being shown, rather than an accurate measure of how close the rest of the party was.

Claiming that Miko is -counting- on the Ogres being unaware of them is a ridiculous claim.

Review (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html) the comic, since you seem to think the Order was somehow hidden. ((This comic and the next one shows the attack, the second actually gives a better representation of their positioning))

Miko tells the ogres "I" singular, solitary am going to fight them. The ogres might react a variety of ways to noticing the rest of the party, but ignoring them would not be one of them. If they had seen the party, they would not have gathered around Miko as if she was the only matter of interest.

Souju

2008-01-31, 04:40 PM

When redcloak and xykon left her in the tower, they expressed interest in raising her as undead just to see what would pop up.
I don't think it'd be too far fetched to have them already have done it.

FujinAkari

2008-01-31, 05:20 PM

You are allowing art to overrule reality here. As we can see from Roy's initial plan, the party is assuming it can sneak up on the guards, which means the party is hidden at that point, and thereafter does nothing to become unhidden. The picture of V & Durkon tossing their spells is a case of the empty space just not being shown, rather than an accurate measure of how close the rest of the party was.

When Miko evasions the Fireball / Lightning, she lands next to Roy. The furthest she could have jumped was 10', probably not more than 5. The comic is pretty explicit about the party not being far away.

Miko tells the ogres "I" singular, solitary am going to fight them. The ogres might react a variety of ways to noticing the rest of the party, but ignoring them would not be one of them. If they had seen the party, they would not have gathered around Miko as if she was the only matter of interest.

"Attention Evil Ogre Bandits! I, Miko Miyazaki, paladin of the Sapphire Guard, have come to vanquish you this morning! Rouse yourself from your half asleep stupor and prepare yourselves for battle! In the interest of a fair and proper fight, I demand that you be fully awake before we attack!"

Sorry David, although she does say that she is specifically there to vanquish them, she is explicit in noting that the entire group is going to attack.

joeker1013

2008-01-31, 08:23 PM

theKOT

2008-01-31, 08:44 PM

I personally think Miko should meet up with Roy in the afterlife. He got into LG Heaven and she had to go to LN Limbo(which I think is in the Caribbean)(what do you do in the LN afterlife anyway? Fold Sheets? Make sure all the pencils are properly sharpened?), she would be sooooo upset at the huge colossal blunder (because it wasn't her fault, or at least thats what she would think) that I think her ghost would follow him back to the real world.
I can see it now a ghost Miko following the party around trying get them to be lawful(or in Miko's case her version of lawful). Now that would be funny! Miko trying to redeem a party that doesn't want to be redeemed (especially by her).
Umm, that's basically what Miko did while she was alive and I don't remember that ending particularly well. I believe the consensus of the Order was "Step off, *****!" There really isn't much new comedy ground there.

Still, I'd love to see Miko back. I've felt like this comic has been a bit aimless since her death, and I loved the complexity and quandries she brought to the strip. I find it a bit tiresome to re-argue about actions that occured hundreds of strips ago, especially considering the amount of time I spent arguing it when those strips were fresh. I need new stuff to argue about Giant!

Anyway, hey Alfryd, I see you haven't gotten tired of rehashing. Keep up the good fight!

Surfing HalfOrc

2008-01-31, 08:59 PM

When redcloak and xykon left her in the tower, they expressed interest in raising her as undead just to see what would pop up.
I don't think it'd be too far fetched to have them already have done it.

Um... When did that happen?

Tsukiko found Miko's body, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) but decided against raising Miko as anything since Miko's body was too badly damaged.

But I still feel there was no point in falling, if Miko won't be given a chance for redemption. How she'll get that chance is much harder to say... Personally, I think she'll come back like Soon Kim at the last possible moment to pull Roy's bacon out of the fire.

theKOT

2008-01-31, 09:05 PM

Um... When did that happen?

Tsukiko found Miko's body, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) but decided against raising Miko as anything since Miko's body was too badly damaged.

He was talking about the watchtower where Miko was trapped in the forcecage.

Alfryd

2008-02-02, 02:43 PM

@ FujinAkari

Precisely what army is Miko supposed to use in order to evict them? Say "Pretty pretty please don't come back?"
Well, you could always torch the camp and their belongings. You can always use a Zone of Truth spell to test their sincerity. Brand them with marks of justice! But look, this is beside the point- if your opponents legitimately surrender peacefully and sue for clemency, as a paladin it is your duty to give them fair quarter. You can't just lop off their hands and tongue as an example to other evildoers when they've expressly placed themselves at your mercy.

As a willing minion of Xykon, he is currently threatening the entirety of Azure City by leading an army of hobgoblins and undead against it.
Who the hell says he's leading it? Besides- as I said before- if he can be pursuaded to overlook Miko's escape, that raises legitimate questions about his 'willing minion' credentials.

The letter is all that matters...
I don't subscribe to that PoV.

What? Where? Mercy isn't even mentioned in the Paladin code!
Honourable conduct? Lawful Good?

I take your refusal to actually answer the question as a concedence.
Perhaps if you were to read into the statement a little more deeply, you would find the answers sought. A code is a code precisely because you stick to it on occasions when it isn't even in your best interests.

I would say the code doesn't ACTUALLY expect me to be kind AND punchy to blonde people.
The SRD definition states Evil consists of 'hurting, killing, or oppressing others'. At no point does it say, 'except other Evil people'. If an Orc shaman decides to sacrifice a kobold captive to Gruumsh by having his entrails pulled out, this is an Evil act, regardless of the alignment of the kobold captive. Why? Because it was not done with the intent to protect others from greater harm. This is the ONLY factor that permits Good characters to kill Evil creatures- because the alternative to ending those lives is that greater harm would, in the long term, befall many others. It's not that killing the Evil is a good thing in itself- they're sentient beings with rights like any other. It's just that the alternative is worse.

But that justification disappears if the Evil being in question doesn't present an immediate or likely threat to others. And all else equal, paladins are supposed to place immediate and certain observations over hypothetical, long-term projections of 'what might go wrong'. If a foe surrenders, isn't threatening anyone, and can be reasonably contained or mitigated as a threat, a paladin needs an overwhelming reason to strike. Hurting, killing, or oppressing when you don't have strong reason to believe that the alternative would be greater pain, slaughter, or oppression is an Evil act. You know.
The kind of thing that paladins aren't supposed to touch with a standard-issue 10 foot pole.

"...I demand that you be fully awake before we attack!"
Hey. Yeah! That is kind of odd. How come none of the Ogres attacked the Order?

I still think it would have been a little more equitable to give fair(er) warning, but that does significantly diminish my cause for complaint.

Dammnit.

Alfryd

2008-02-02, 03:12 PM

I believe TinSoldier did some research on what make a viable paladin code a while back:
http://www.snotling.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1642

"I did a lot of research into paladin codes for a paladin character I was making. What's in the PHB is really just a guideline for creating a paladin code, it's not really a code in and of itself."

Personally, I like this one (which is fairly hard-core):
http://www.weirdness-central.co.uk/downloads/rpgstuff/guidelines-for-paladins.pdf

Do not lie
This includes any form of INTENTIONAL deception, including intentional omission
of information with the intent to mislead. There are no WHITE lies. You do not lie
about who you are or what you doing. You may not answer, but to lie is unforgivable.
Your word is your bond.

Anyway, hey Alfryd, I see you haven't gotten tired of rehashing. Keep up the good fight!
Hey- KOT- how're ya doin'?

@ The Wanderer

I agree about the need for flexibility 100%. Every situation is fluid and unique, with individual factors in it. However, I also tend to view pledging oneself to something, giving your word, or taking up a cause very seriously. If you do so, then you should mean it. If you're looking for loopholes in a code right after you pledge yourself to it, then you shouldn't have sworn yourself to it in the first place.
I agree fully. I have no particular use for ornate and restrictive honour codes myself, but I wouldn't pretend to be Lawful in the first place. If you sign up to a particular code, you should stick with it, letter and spirit. (Heck, you could always dole out appropriate Role-Play XP to compensate.)

On the general subject of paladin effectiveness versus paladin honour, I do think there is a viable middle ground between the two- but you can only find it you have a clear idea of what the spirit of the code entails. A paladin who, on rare occasions, broke the letter of their code in order to better preserve it's spirit would be on much firmer ethical ground than one who practiced the converse. If, for instance, a paladin were asked by the villain's minions (present in overwhelming numbers) whether the child they were looking to murder was hidden in the closet, deceit would be a lesser violation of his/her code than allowing them to kill the child. I agree that you can't make a habit of it, but bear in mind 'Being Lawful Good' is right at the top of a paladin's code of conduct.

It should be borne in mind that high level paladins do have spells like Zone of Truth and Discern Lies to help them out against the 'pleading archvillain' scenario, and you can always use subdual damage.

However, what if said evil-doer is easily rich enough to bribe the court? Is a ruler or influential figure in the land of said court, even a respected hero? A relative of ruler? Or just a Lex Luthor type villain who is both clever enough not to leave his fingerprints anywhere and rich enough to bribe his way out of trouble?
In that case, kill 'im. Allowing countless innocents to suffer to uphold a broken system does not seem to be in compliance with the paladin code either. To my mind, that would be a reasonable exception. You break the letter to preserve the spirit.

(This is one of the few times when I lean towards utilitarianism. If I was Supes there would have come a point where I said to Lex "If you get free again you'll cause more trouble and kill or hurt more innocent people in the process. So, sorry about this" and then turn old Lex into a puddle on the ground).
Oh, I agree fully.
Problem is... well... essentially the same argument applies to Elan.
( However, I don't really consider Superman a useful guide to paladin conduct BECAUSE HE'S FRACKING INVULNERABLE. He can afford to have lofty ethical principles at other people's expense, because there's no personal risk involved.)

The best villains are sneaky bastards, and it requires someone able to think along the same lines to bring them down, usually. Sometimes that might mean some dishonorable and downright wrong like, say, just assassinating the person in question. Refer to my earlier bit on why, if you're not willing to do that from the outset, you don't get the option of saying "Screw the rules" halfway through. You can if it's worth falling, but don't expect to not get a penalty because you had good intentions or did it for the right reasons. (And if you weren't willing to accept that from the start, then again, really a LG Fighter would have been a better way to go).
Again, I'm in full agreement here, and there was a long discussion on a similar topic when the issue of Thanh as a Freedom Fighter came up. Some people thought that, (for some reason) Thanh would have ethical objections to resisting an entrenched government, that this would be intrinsically Chaotic behaviour, but really the main problem would be the means neccesary to pull off a successful coup under heavy enemy occupation. Which in all likelihood would not be long compatible with the paladin code.

Unless, of course, the DM hands you an easy out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html).

The Extinguisher

2008-02-02, 03:22 PM

FujinAkari

2008-02-02, 11:07 PM

Who the hell says he's leading it? Besides- as I said before- if he can be pursuaded to overlook Miko's escape, that raises legitimate questions about his 'willing minion' credentials.

if if if if if. Miko is not required to do a triple blind test of ethical considerations before she punishes someone serving an evil lich. The MitD said Xykon told him not to let her escape. Yes, she COULD try to talk her way around him, but she is certainly not required too. There is nothing evil about going through the minion of a lich in order to save an entire city.

I don't subscribe to that PoV.

What we seem to be discussing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is whether Miko violated her Paladin oath. As a result, the only standard you CAN apply is the literal oath. Any meaning you attach beyond what is dictated by the SRD is precisely that, beyond what is dictated by the SRD. You want to houserule that in in your game? Fine, but don't try and hold other people to your personal interpretation.

Honourable conduct? Lawful Good?

As you have been told numerous times, the SRD -defines- "fighting evil without mercy" as the behavior of a Lawful Good paladin. As a result, NO, Mercy is explicitly not required.

Perhaps if you were to read into the statement a little more deeply, you would find the answers sought. A code is a code precisely because you stick to it on occasions when it isn't even in your best interests.

But the entire point to my question (which you still refuse to address) is that the code doesn't actually require honor towards evil people. It requires Paladins to behavave Honorably and punish evil. The evil can be read as an exception. Much like a code that requires you to hug people and punch blondes, it wouldn't require you to hug AND punch blondes.

The SRD definition states Evil consists of 'hurting, killing, or oppressing others'. At no point does it say, 'except other Evil people'. If an Orc shaman decides to sacrifice a kobold captive to Gruumsh by having his entrails pulled out, this is an Evil act, regardless of the alignment of the kobold captive.

You seem to be confusing torture with punishment. A band of ogres that abduct people are a threat to innocents, and as a result Miko is well within her rights to exterminate them.

David Argall

2008-02-02, 11:36 PM

Quote:
Neither Sabine nor Miko consider it so in this case...

There is no evidence for this.
Miko goes over and snaps her neck. She shows neither interest nor surprise when Sabine gets back up.
Sabine is angry, but only angry, and within a short period of time, is entirely willing to forget and forgive.
In other words, both acted as if the incident was no different than where a girl slaps the face of a pushy boy.

Quote:
We can note here that D&D now has the Knight PC class...

I fail to see the relevance.
The restrictions you are most interested in are given in D&D text as restrictions on the Knight. They are not listed as restrictions on the paladin. That makes for a presumption these restrictions do not apply to the paladin.

Quote:
Miko does not fall until she kills Shojo...

Again, I have no intention of debating this point with you, which refers to a quite different context.
It puts a ceiling on the amount of flaws Miko could have had up until that point. We have a given that whatever she did wrong, if anything, it was not a serious offense.

you are confusing reasonable in the tactical sense with reasonable in the spiritual sense.
And by all the standards displayed in the comic, it was reasonable in the spiritual sense as well. Indeed, it was more than reasonable, showing spirtual superiority to the plan offered by the rest of the party.

Quote:
Also without much hope of victory. ...The risk is far more than nominal. Miko’s plan concentrated the ogres...

There is nothing whatsoever to prevent you from allowing the Ogres to congregate before you inform them that they are surrounded by heavy casters, nor are you required to permit them to split up and search the area after that announcement.
This seems to require the same "lying" that Miko did anyway, and without the efficiency. She would still be "lying" in her attempt to gather the ogres, and then demanding they surrender and revealing the trap merely gives them a chance to get out of it.

Oh, it's highly unlikely that the Ogres would surrender, but that's their own decision. You've told them all the pertinent facts of the situation and made peaceful options explicit- if they don't want to take your word for it, then it's on their heads when they're basted at 700 degrees.
Origens A fireball is 1850+ Kelvin.

But the peaceful options are already explicit. As far as the ogres can see it, fighting Miko is an evil act. They do not need to know the additional fact that it is also suicidal.

while the Ogres had plenty of time to make overtures of truce, Miko never makes any herself, and as the paladin, she really should take the initiative on that score.
Again, a quibble. They had adequate time to make overtunes, and a duty to as well.

Quote:
The logic of the quote runs in my direction. It argues that attempted crime is no crime, which here means Miko is without fault.

You still get locked up for attempted murder.
You are the one who provided the quote that argued differently.

Attempted deceit is just as dishonourable as actual deceit.
Routinely, attempted is punished less severely. A quick goggle finds the case of Oregon murder at 300 months, vs attempted murder of 90 months. "No harm, no foul" applies to deceit too.

Quote:
What did she agree to that she didn’t intend? That she was going to play to win? Where does she say that? Indeed, one often does not play to win.

if your object is to do the exact opposite of what the rules of the game plainly state, you're not playing the game at all.
The MitD stated the rules. He said how to win, but he stated no rule that you have to try to win.

Quote:
He is rather obviously a co-conspirator and gets punished in any court...
Miko, with a fair degree of accuracy, saw the difference as rather trivial. A huge number of innocents would likely die if she was stopped.

15 seconds of further conversation was not going to seriously impact the situation- particularly when she found herself completely unable to injure the beast after her first assault. By that point, she really had no excuse for not at least attempting negotiation- given her message was so important, she should not have been risking heavy combat unless strictly neccesary.
Again, you are trying to demand perfect behavior, not acceptable behavior. Given what we know of the MitD, any battle of wits is a much better tactic. But Miko has no reason to be aware of that. Quite the opposite. Not knowing any reason Xykon wants her to escape, she should assume a dedicated and competent guard. So she should have little hope that non-combat efforts would work.

Quote:
Now there are several problems with this. The basic is that it amounts to saying that any time somebody makes a mistake, it must be because he was inhabiting some fantasy, and not because he made some mistake.

When someone starts spewing fantastically elaborate conspiracy theories with almost no reliable evidence, that is the sign they are inhabiting a fantasy.
Actually just about all the evidence Miko had suggested such a conspiracy. It was a grand and glorious leap to that being a solid conclusion instead of a suspicion, but calling it fantastically elaborate is a rather elaborate exaggeration.
Keep in mind here that Azure City had a class of scheming nobles, which means Miko had lived with a series of conspiracies. She was not engaging in fantasy to think this was another one.

Quote:
What it did was explain a number of facts...

The individual links in the chain of inference were plausible enough, if not entirely likely, but the whole is only as probable as the product of it's parts- (i.e, not very.)
True, but that still negates any need for some unknown rage here. She is perfectly capable of believing the [limited] facts before her, and acting on them, distinctly too quickly.
We might say you are acting a lot like Miko here. On the basis of limited facts, she decides a conspiracy exists. On the basis of limited facts, you say some unknown rage exists. In both cases, there are some supporting facts, but the fact is that there are limited facts, and the jump to certainity is misplaced.

Moreover, Miko later receives data that rather contradicts her analysis (even if she fails to acknowledge it,) when Roy prevents her from finishing Hinjo- which makes no sense if Roy is seeking to destroy the city.
You seem to be mixing several different times here. By the time Roy attacks her, she has received a shock that could send about anybody babbling.

Quote:
Again, the more you give the context, the more you hurt your own case. The objection here is that Miko orders people around, not that she uses underhanded tactics in combat.

The point is that A. Miko's conduct with the Ogres is indicative of her conduct is general, B. she is not a good example of paladinship in general, and C. she isn't even terribly Lawful Good (her strongest Lawful quality is peremptorily assuming that other people will do what she says, which in fact does little to promote discipline.)

To me, that adds up to saying pretty clearly that Miko only sticks to her LG code of conduct by a rather thin margin.
You are engaging in slippage of language here. "not a good example of paladinship in general, and C. she isn't even terribly Lawful Good" is not the same as "not a good example of paladinship in general, and C. she isn't even terribly Lawful Good".

I don't consider Hinjo's executive decisions to be either morally or tactically ironclad by any stretch.
But Hinjo is our "good" paladin. If his moral actions are no better than Miko's, we have to accept that Miko's actions [with notable exceptions] are acceptable.

your patent refusal to accept the patently obvious does not constitute an argument, so no, we're not debating. I am simply telling you until you listen.
But that is not considered proper education, debate, logic, or much else. It amounts to the little kid who just yells.

You were trying to argue that Rich changed his mind about romantic entanglement between Roy and Miko during the Inn sequence, because of some alleged sudden lurch in narrative structure,
No. My position is that the change in plans was rather a lurch. He had been having problems with the plan well before the inn, and had abandoned some variations of it by then, but the decision to abandon it in total did not happen until the inn story was well under weigh.

Quote:
...romance between the completely incompatible has very high comic potential...

"....it was obvious to me that light romantic comedy was not what Miko was about."
There are several types of romantic comedy. That light romantic comedy is ruled out does not mean that other forms of romantic comedy are.

Raider

2008-02-03, 12:24 AM

She will meet up with with Nale's girlfriend in her hangout I suppose.

Haha, she's the whipping boy of OOTS

Ampersand

2008-02-04, 06:23 PM

First of all, apologies for my sporadic posts. Life keeps getting in the way.

However, I also tend to view pledging oneself to something, giving your word, or taking up a cause very seriously.

So do I. Which, incidentally, is why I rarely do it IRL. :smallsmile:

If you're looking for loopholes in a code right after you pledge yourself to it, then you shouldn't have sworn yourself to it in the first place.

Or, alternatively, the code is flawed, which may or may not have been apparent at the time of the pledge.

Or, in more general and meta terms, a player in a game, (or character in a fictional story), should really think if it's right for them to be a paladin, and to be play/live by what it means, or if they'll do more good as, say, a lawful good fighter.

More importantly, I think that players and DMs need to get together and decide on what the paladin code entails before the campaign begins. That way you avoid situations like "What do you mean I've Fallen for forgetting to throw my candy bar wrapper away?"

As much as I hate bringing out the slippery slope arguments, saying "I pledge to act as according to this code of conduct... unless I really need to do something forbidden by it. And the same for every time after that too" doesn't really work for me.

My point isn't that paladins should be able to outright flaunt the code, but that there should be more gray area in applying it. If that means occasionally sticking to the letter of the code but ignoring the spirit...well, them's the breaks. I may have said this already, but a "creative interpretation" of the code is much better than a dead/undead/turned paladin.

Personally, I'm more than willing to give Miko an easy time on "letter but not spirit" issues with the code for the sole reason that she was a lone operative. She never had a party to fall back on...any compromise, any weakness, any mistake and she would've been dead. So I'm perfectly all right with letting practicality overwhelm the spirit of the paladin code if that's what it takes for her to get the job done.

However, what if said evil-doer is easily rich enough to bribe the court? Is a ruler or influential figure in the land of said court, even a respected hero? A relative of ruler? Or just a Lex Luthor type villain who is both clever enough not to leave his fingerprints anywhere and rich enough to bribe his way out of trouble?

Heh. Ya'know, this is exactly the sort of argument that I (and I think a few others) used back when Shojo was rapidly acquiring a temperature consistent with the air around him...

This is one of the few times when I lean towards utilitarianism. If I was Supes there would have come a point where I said to Lex "If you get free again you'll cause more trouble and kill or hurt more innocent people in the process. So, sorry about this" and then turn old Lex into a puddle on the ground.

Side note, but did you ever watch the Justice League cartoon? They had a storyline pretty much exactly like that. It was an alternate dimension, of course, but...

The best villains are sneaky bastards, and it requires someone able to think along the same lines to bring them down, usually.

This is traditionally the point where having a party to work with benefits a paladin very much. :smallsmile:

Sometimes that might mean some dishonorable and downright wrong like, say, just assassinating the person in question. Refer to my earlier bit on why, if you're not willing to do that from the outset, you don't get the option of saying "Screw the rules" halfway through. You can if it's worth falling, but don't expect to not get a penalty because you had good intentions or did it for the right reasons.

I've personally never contended that Miko shouldn't have lost her paladinhood for killing Shojo. I think, given the situation and the knowledge she had, she was at least semi-justified in coming to the conclusions that she did, even if it was helped along by a healthy spooonful o' paranoia. And I think she was prudent in executing him on the spot (for the reasons you stated above...there was no way he could get a "fair trial" because he spent four decades rewriting the laws to suit him, and anyone who tried him likely as not had been put into that position by him). But unfortunately she couldn't take the cost of those actions and decided to start cribbing lines from Anakin Skywalker.

... um, I was just trying to not take up the entire page. I don't see how I could have provided more context, with the sole exception being including the part where you admit it was baseless speculation. (Or said that it was a purely metfictional argument, but I thought people could figure that one out). If you prefer though in the future I'll stick to something like this, of quoting the entire thing and bolding the parts that are relevant. I just think the selected quote more to the point...

It was misinterpretation on my part. I thought that you were attempting to represent my position on Miko in a way where it seemed like I was just trying to blindly justify everything she did. I'm afraid that, with the number of arguments I've had on this board about the subject, I'm a little itchy on the trigger about that...I've participated in quite a few threads that have gotten nasty and purposefully mis-representational enough that you could've mistaken it for coverage from the Senate floor. My apologies.