Imperium of Man vs. Discworld

[Eerie]

Great A`Tuin accidentally swims into Warhammer 40K galaxy.

What happens next?

[GoC]

*facepalm*

[Zenos]

I think the Discworld will stand against all intrusions by the IoM because of it's bizzarity, and will after a while swim out of imperial space. Everybody wins.

[SurlySeraph]

Now I've got this image in my head of Rincewind fleeing an entire chapter of Space Marines, whimpering quietly as the plasma blasts fly past him...

[Eita]

Depends on who the plot wants to win. Magic in Discworld is pretty much driven by that.

[The_Snark]

An image of the Luggage on a planetful of Tyranids has just popped into my head. Most amusing.

If you want an answer... there is none. Versus threads with the Disc simply don't work. Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot.

[Green Bean]

"The invading Space Marines quickly conquered the planet, installing its administration in Ankh-Morpork. In a matter of weeks, however, the genetically engineered supersoldiers found they had become just another minority group, with their own ethnic slang and speciality foods."

[Eldan]

It's simple: The luggage eats all the space marines, while Granny Wheaterwax and the Patrician unite to stare down the emperor.
Problem solved.

[factotum]

Given that the speed of light is greatly reduced around the Discworld due to its magical field, the Imperium's ships might have a few difficulties manoeuvring near the place...and there's always the chance they'd get in the way of one of Great A'Tuin's flippers and get smashed to pieces, of course!

[Tengu]

"The invading Space Marines quickly conquered the planet, installing its administration in Ankh-Morpork. In a matter of weeks, however, the genetically engineered supersoldiers found they had become just another minority group, with their own ethnic slang and speciality foods."

That answer is made of win.

In a "Discworld vs X" thread, Discworld always wins. They have the strongest narrativum and comical settings have an advantage over serious ones - how many times have you seen a serious, overpowered character fail in a comical setting, and how many time the opposite?

[Freshmeat]

Logically, the Imperium of Man would win.
Therefore, Discworld wins by virtue of narrative causality.

[TheLogman]

Moist would raise the Golem Army from Making Money, The Patrician would have some contingency that makes him win, and then the Unseen University would Nuke the rest from above.

Oh, and if they get in real trouble, they just have to rattle their drawers, and suddenly all the conduits, hatches, ect. on every Mech becomes stuck by an eggbeater or something.

[factotum]

Actually, something just occurred to me...it's always possible that the chances of Discworld winning against the Imperium are exactly a million to one against, and we all know those chances come up 9 times out of ten!

[WNxHasoroth]

Discworlds Humor is countered by da Orkz. Hilarity ensues.

[GoC]

Moist would raise the Golem Army from Making Money, The Patrician would have some contingency that makes him win, and then the Unseen University would Nuke the rest from above.
*facepalms again*

factotum:Try a trillion to one.

[Artemician]

*Coughs loudly*

Actually, despite what everyone seems to think, I for one think WH40K would win.

Why? Simple. There was a line in Hogfather, that told of "Philosophers and astrologers perplexed by a sudden shift in the cosmos as A'tuin dodged a meteorite." That's one meteorite. Not thousands upon thousands of precision-aimed missiles, complemented by a whole host of warp grenades.

The Disc has no chance in hell.

Of course then, people shall bring up the Gods, the Octavo and the Anthropomorphic Personalizations. WH40K's answer to that? Chaos. Nuff said. The Discworld's divine beings feed off belief in much the same way as Warp Entities. Except Warp Entities are powered by the belief of trilllions upon trillions of citizens. How many people are there on the whole of the Disc? Less than even one hive world, I'd warrant.

[Freshmeat]

*Coughs loudly*

Actually, despite what everyone seems to think, I for one think WH40K would win.

Why? Simple. There was a line in Hogfather, that told of "Philosophers and astrologers perplexed by a sudden shift in the cosmos as A'tuin dodged a meteorite." That's one meteorite. Not thousands upon thousands of precision-aimed missiles, complemented by a whole host of warp grenades.

The Disc has no chance in hell.

Of course then, people shall bring up the Gods, the Octavo and the Anthropomorphic Personalizations. WH40K's answer to that? Chaos. Nuff said. The Discworld's divine beings feed off belief in much the same way as Warp Entities. Except Warp Entities are powered by the belief of trilllions upon trillions of citizens. How many people are there on the whole of the Disc? Less than even one hive world, I'd warrant.

... which only increases the Disc's chance of winning, since it's all the more unlikely.
The entire Discworld can only be defeated by, like a carrot vender that went rogue or something.

[Artemician]

... which only increases the Disc's chance of winning, since it's all the more unlikely.
The entire Discworld can only be defeated by, like a carrot vender that went rogue or something.

What powers this inverse probability? Why, belief, belief, and nothing but belieft. Fundementally, everything in the Disc runs on belief.

Which cause it to run into problems when facing other things that run on belief as well.

[Spiryt]

What powers this inverse probability? Why, belief, belief, and nothing but belieft. Fundementally, everything in the Disc runs on belief.

Which cause it to run into problems when facing other things that run on belief as well.

Well, you are probably right. If Imperium of man attacked Discwolrd, they would leave desolated remains of eveything drifting in space.*

The thing is - what is the point of serious analysis in here?

[mikeejimbo]

I'm pretty sure that the Luggage alone beats everything. Including Cthluhu.

[Lorn]

Wait. The Discworld ended up in another universe entirely?

Does this not rule out the Dungeon Dimensions?

Does this thus not rule out the IoM winning at all - well, with any ease at least?

And what era of Discworld are we on about? Is Coin still available?



Having said that, orbital bombardment before the Discworld even works out what's happened. Drop podding Marines before the Discworld - what remains of it - recovers. An Alpha-level psyker could probably just fold the world in half, it IS flat...

[Somebloke]

An image of the Luggage on a planetful of Tyranids has just popped into my head. Most amusing.

.

I think we just figured out what the Tyranids are running from...

[Eerie]

Wait. The Discworld ended up in another universe entirely?

Does this not rule out the Dungeon Dimensions?

Doesn`t 40K have his own "Dungeon Dimensions" of a sort?


Having said that, orbital bombardment before the Discworld even works out what's happened. Drop podding Marines before the Discworld - what remains of it - recovers. An Alpha-level psyker could probably just fold the world in half, it IS flat...

You forget the magical field of Discworld. For a start, everything that moves faster than the speed of sound there is a tachyon, with unpredictable results.

[Seraph]

factotum:Try a trillion to one.

you're really just digging yourself deeper, here.

listen, the disc is made of narrativium. by virtue of this, the disc's de facto probability of success is inversely proportional to its calculated probability of success.

[FoE]

Boy, these "versus" threads are really getting stupid ... :smallannoyed:

[The_Snark]

The Disc has narrative causality, which means that no matter how absurd the forces brought to bear against them are, you are never going to beat them.

You can't discount the power of Plot on the Disc, because it's an integral part of the world, accepted by knowledgable characters. It's a physical presence—even has an element. Narrativium. Abbreviation Pl.

More to the point, trying is just silly, and I vote we go with h_v's answer and call it a day.

[GoC]

you're really just digging yourself deeper, here.

listen, the disc is made of narrativium. by virtue of this, the disc's de facto probability of success is inversely proportional to its calculated probability of success.

I've read seventeen discworld books, I'm not ignorant of how discworld works.
However the reason a million to one odds work are because of a certain goddess (created in turn by belief/narrativium). She's only the patron deity of a million to one, not a trillion to one.

The_Snark: The problem with h_v's idea is that the space marines would be a majority not a minority. And there's also the fact that none of Ankmorpork's previous invaders had orbital bombardment cannons...

[Illiterate Scribe]

Discworlds Humor is countered by da Orkz. Hilarity ensues.

WAAAAAAAAGGH!!!!

Da Orkzez kant stand gainst da damn plot. Dey'ze simple smash it.


Also, Grot cannons.

[TheLogman]

Actually, Anoia got moved to "Goddess of Lost Causes", the Million to one thing is different.

[Zenos]

The Imperium of Man simply has to make it a 999,999 to 1 chance and they win. Or maybe a 1000,001 to 1 chance... And I'm sure their calculus logi are up to the task of calculating such chances.

[Green Bean]

The_Snark: The problem with h_v's idea is that the space marines would be a majority not a minority. And there's also the fact that none of Ankmorpork's previous invaders had orbital bombardment cannons...

Then Granny Weatherwax Borrows the Emperor and orders the Marines home. :smalltongue:

[GoC]

Then Granny Weatherwax Borrows the Emperor and orders the Marines home. :smalltongue:

I forgot about old granny... yes the Imperium is doomed.

[Eldan]

You forget the alternative approach:
Granny uses a broom to fly to Terra, even though she hates it. Nothing can stop her on her way. She stares down the emperors guards, approaches the throne and... HEALS THE EMPEROR. It's that simple. Then, he awakes and declares peace. (Of course he doesn't want to, but Granny forces him)

[Lizard]

A few points in Discworlds favor:

1) The already mentioned magical field around discworld. It is powerful enough to casue that light travels merely at the speed of sound. I cannot imagine what results would have an orbital bombardment in such magical field, but the outcome would probably be (given the Power of Plot) quite unexpected and unfavorable to Imperium of Man.

2) As was already said, the power of plot is an actual force in the Discworld universe, like gravity or magnetism. And if you look at this from a plot perspective: The small island of light, happiness, etc... must fight for freedom and survival against a giant, galaxy spanning, evil, fanatic and ruthless Empire...
It should be enought to give at least every member of Imperial Guard/ Space Marines a serious Stormtrooper syndrome when trying to hit anything from Discworld. That, together with magical field should be enough to keep orbital bombardment out of picture

3)Also I guess the gods of Discworlds wouldnt be exactly happy if someone tried to go and vaporize majority of their followers. I am not sure how exactly they could influence the battle, and the power of plot would probably dictate them to lose in the end (so that the Discworld would appear to be "doomed" giving grant entry to heroes who will save the day (my guess is Nightwatch + Leonardo + Vetinari + Moist, or the Witches, or Susan, or (and that would be especially awesome) Rincewind)

4)


Of course then, people shall bring up the Gods, the Octavo and the Anthropomorphic Personalizations. WH40K's answer to that? Chaos. Nuff said. The Discworld's divine beings feed off belief in much the same way as Warp Entities. Except Warp Entities are powered by the belief of trilllions upon trillions of citizens. How many people are there on the whole of the Disc? Less than even one hive world, I'd warrant.
Well bringing Chaos into what is purely Imperium of Man against Discworld battle is a a bit unfair but allright:
The only ones who are powered from belief are gods. The Anthropomorphic Personalizations are forces that were kinda built-in with the creation of universe, then later, their behavior was greatly influenced by the human (troll, dwarven....) beliefs. Their powers are however completly independant, and are much greater than the possible powers of ordinary divine beings. And becouse the chaos uses the same principle like divine beings in Discworld, the difference being pretty much only the scale (as you said belief of several millions against "belief" of trillions upon trillions). Chaos vs. Discworld would probably very soon become Death (with possibility of his buddies (like War...) joining in) vs Chaos, and in that fight my money is on Death.

I apologise for grammatic and typing mistakes, I wrote this in a hurry, and without really concentrating too hard on it....

[TheLogman]

Wait, but isn't Chaos also a character in Discworld? The 5th Rider? The one who's a Milkman?

[Lyesmith]

Kaos, yes.

In theory, the Discworlds own Death could undo any attacking force, surely? Phsyics and time dont apply, and he's got a terribly nasty weapon that cuts through anthing. He could probably claim The Emperor and utterly undo all of the IoM in one stroke.

Wait! Idea!
Death vs the C'tan Nightbringer.

Round one, ting ting? :smalleek:

[JabberwockySupafly]

We're all forgetting something here. While Discworld has a huge chance of winning due to things like the Anthropomorphic Personifications, the Luggage, Rincewind, Unseen University, and the Coven it also has it's enemies on the "home front" who probably only be more than happy to aid the IoM. The Auditors of Reality. The IoM wipe out the Disc, and that's one less problem for the Auditors, which I would be sure they would use to their advantage if this highly unlikely event should ever occur.

But,that being said, I have full faith in the Disc in succeeding for two reasons: Narrative Casualty and Susan.

Why Susan? Well, last we heard she was dating the A.P. of Time, Lobsang/Jeremy. If their relationship is progressing forward at a positive rate she could simply say something along the lines of "Dear, be so kind as to speed up the time/space ratio around that space armada to the point where moving one millimeter will cause enough friction to incinerate themselves into oblivion." Failing that, she simply stops time herself, grabs Grandpa's Sword and gives some very lethal haircuts.

And, for a third option: Rincewind, Half-Brick, Sock. "Nuff said.

[Eita]

You forget the alternative approach:
Granny uses a broom to fly to Terra, even though she hates it. Nothing can stop her on her way. She stares down the emperors guards, approaches the throne and... HEALS THE EMPEROR. It's that simple. Then, he awakes and declares peace. (Of course he doesn't want to, but Granny forces him)

Then the Emperor stands up and let the daemons from behind the corrupted Imperial Webway (the entrance of which in the Throne Room, right behind the Golden Throne. In fact, if the Emperor sits off the Golden Throne, the entrance opens) and laughs as they try and eat Granny. Key word being try of course.

[North]

Then the Emperor stands up and let the daemons from behind the corrupted Imperial Webway (the entrance of which in the Throne Room, right behind the Golden Throne. In fact, if the Emperor sits off the Golden Throne, the entrance opens) and laughs as they try and eat Granny. Key word being try of course.

I was about to open a can of counter arguement on you till I saw that part :smallbiggrin:

[bugsysservant]

Short answer: Rincewind takes a sock-with-brick to the back of the god emperor's head.

Long answer: Discworld fields sorceror (1). Sorceror traps/kills God Emperor of Man. Bad things start to happen to IOM. A'tuin swims out of rapidly dissolving galaxy.

Edit: Seriously, people. Stop making idiotic versus threads. They've degenerated almost to the point of "Could Barney eat a Teletubby?"

Next time you're going to start a versus thread:
a. think whether there is a chance in hell of either side winning.
b. Think whether both of the participants are equally serious. No one wants to debate whether the Vogons could beat the empire. Really, its no longer funny.
c. Think whether you life, or anyone else's, would really be enriched by determining whether Morgoth could beat up the God Emperor of Man.
d. If you still want to make a versus thread, go back to "a" and go through the list without lying.

If you still want to start a versus thread, slap yourself vigorously, then repeat from "a." There, now isn't everybody much happier?

[LordVader]

God-Emperor's already a dead body, killing him isn't going to help. Power has shifted to the High Lords, and you can't kill what's already dead.

The book calls him the Corpse God for a reason, you know. :smallwink:

[Eita]

Carrion Lord. Of Terra. He's not dead yet though. He'll be back....

[Rutee]

Edit: Seriously, people. Stop making idiotic versus threads. They've degenerated almost to the point of "Could Barney eat a Teletubby?"

Next time you're going to start a versus thread:
a. think whether there is a chance in hell of either side winning.
b. Think whether both of the participants are equally serious. No one wants to debate whether the Vogons could beat the empire. Really, its no longer funny.
c. Think whether you life, or anyone else's, would really be enriched by determining whether Morgoth could beat up the God Emperor of Man.
d. If you still want to make a versus thread, go back to "a" and go through the list without lying.

If you still want to start a versus thread, slap yourself vigorously, then repeat from "a." There, now isn't everybody much happier?

Isn't this like shouting silence? I mean, you actually responded to the topic. This'd be more.. I dunno, convincing if you didn't deign to respond to the topic.

[bugsysservant]

Isn't this like shouting silence? I mean, you actually responded to the topic. This'd be more.. I dunno, convincing if you didn't deign to respond to the topic.

Well, in my defense I held off because I really did think it would die with only a few sarcastic posts. And yes, there are a few good versus threads out there, but when it comes to ones such as these, I feel it is my duty as a good citizen of the internet to put it down like the rabid dog that it is, by explaining how utterly idiotic the entire match is to those who don't understand the respective universes. Just doin' my duty, ma'am.

[Cubey]

I believe the only way for the Imperium to win is to be genre savvy and play with Discworld's rules - instead of exterminatus, chapters of Space Marines or any other crazy crap they have up their sleeves (and won't work anyway), they send a single, ordinary Imperial Guardsman. With low batteries in his flashlight.

[Eita]

And lo did that lone Guardsman conquer Discworld, and this chant rose up, "Praised be Joe Guardsman!"

[WNxHasoroth]

You're forgetting the fact that Death is the Night Bringer, after a hangover.

[Lord Iames Osari]

But,that being said, I have full faith in the Disc in succeeding for two reasons: Narrative Casualty and Susan.

Why Susan? Well, last we heard she was dating the A.P. of Time, Lobsang/Jeremy. If their relationship is progressing forward at a positive rate she could simply say something along the lines of "Dear, be so kind as to speed up the time/space ratio around that space armada to the point where moving one millimeter will cause enough friction to incinerate themselves into oblivion." Failing that, she simply stops time herself, grabs Grandpa's Sword and gives some very lethal haircuts.

And, for a third option: Rincewind, Half-Brick, Sock. "Nuff said.

And besides, we can always count on good old Leonard of Quirm to have a poorly-named-yet-very-applicable-to-this-situation-problem-solving-device. :smallbiggrin:

More seriously, what is the Imperium's goal here? Conquest or destruction? That will affect how strongly the narrativium field reacts.

Assuming the goal is conquest, I predict the following:

The Disc is initially encountered by a smallish group of Space Marines or whatever, who attempt to conquer it for the glory of the Emperor. The Disc's field of narrativium guides them to land at Ankh-Morpork. At first, the Marines are looked on as exotic trolls. This mistaken assumption is no doubt quickly dispelled, but regardless, at least one technologically advanced weapon will be nicked or swindled out of a Marine's possession before the day is done - this being Ankh-Morpork, after all.

This specimen of advanced tehcnology makes its way back to the Patrician, who entrusts it to Leonard of Quirm with the instructions to take it apart, see how it works, and figure out how to make another one.

Ankh-Morpork continues to work its passive-agressive assimilation on the force of Space Marines, and before they know it, they are indeed just another minority with their own ethnic slang and specialty foods. Probably their own temple, too.

In the meantime, the Patrician begins having the crude, reverse-engineered facsimilies of the Marines' equipment mass-produced, and the Watch begins training in their use. By the time a larger Imperium force notices the disappearance of the first group of Marines and sends a more forces to investigate, Ankh-Morpork will be on nearly even technological terms with them, with the added benefit of having narrativium and magic on their side.

Assuming the second force lands and is obviously hostile and too large to be assimilated, Carrot will take the field in reverse-engineered equipment, along with his very sharp sword. Being both a genuine hero and hopelessly outnumbered by his opponents, he will of course triumph gloriously over the lot of them. Repeat this process until the Imperiumn has no more troops to send, or if they eventually get tired of it and try to destroy the Disc, Death, the Horsemen, and Susan can refuse to collect casualties until the AP of Time does that thing Jabberwocky suggested. And then the History Monks can patch it all up.

[Artemician]

And besides, we can always count on good old Leonard of Quirm to have a poorly-named-yet-very-applicable-to-this-situation-problem-solving-device. :smallbiggrin:

More seriously, what is the Imperium's goal here? Conquest or destruction? That will affect how strongly the narrativium field reacts.

Assuming the goal is conquest, I predict the following:<snip>

The Imperium's Goal will most decidely not be conquest.

Think about it, you see a strangely-shaped world, heretical in design, even floating through space, The inhabitants are known consorts with abhumans, use Magic and Sorcery freely, and have not even heard of the Emperor. Worse still, they worship their own Gods, which are exactly unto the Four Chaos Entities. That's a candidate for Exterminatus if I ever heard one.

And what makes you think that any invading force (which will only the case assuming it's not the Astartes, or rather say the Adeptus Arbites or something comprising first contact) will leave Vetinari alive?

Vetinari is a master of manipulation, but he ran into problems when he encountered foes that steadfastedly refused to negotiate. Such as a Dragon, for example. A closed mind is something that is prized in the Imperium. Any sort of new ruler will not throw Vetinari into the dungeon. He can and will execute him, on the spot if necessary.

And as for technology-assimilation: the Disc is severely frightened by even a single shot musket. A repeating Gyrojet launcher, or a wide-bore ionized Gas expeller will so something so completely alien that it might as well have come from the Dungeon Dimensions.

That's assuming that people can separate a Guardsman from his weapon, of course. Guardsmen are trained from boot camp never to lose their weapon, on pain of summary execution. Whatever the lowlives of Ankh-Morpork can offer will never be able to compete with that.

[Artemician]

Refuting General Statements:

On Granny's Willpower and capability to withstand Chaos.

Granny Weatherwax is able to resist the intrusions of the Dungeon Dimensions, just as she can stare down Death in the eye and not flinch. This will, however, not help here against the combined might of Chaos Undivided. The Dungeon Dimensions-beings are weak, weak because they have no believers. And that is why they are always seeking a foothold in the material realm, why they are constantly straining to burst out of their prison.

In contrast, Chaos has not only burst free of its prison, it ravaged it and constantly threatens to spill over and completely overwhelm the entire material plane. It is unknown what even holds it back; theories range from the Laughing God to Necron Pylons to the God-Emperor himself. Granny may be able to resist the stare of a minor divine entity, or the conniptions of minor warp entities, but she will fold against the raw might of Chaos.

Some people will consider it unfair to bring up Chaos, given that we're talking about the Imperium of Man here, not the whole universe. But the OP has clearly stated that A'tuin swims into the WH40K verse. Therefore, the Disc will have to play by their rules. Granny is a strong mind, perhaps the strongest the world has ever seen. Daemons flock like moths to a flame to strong minds. And these daemons are beings more powerful than what the Disc can ever conjure up, simply due to the numbers again. They have more believers.

Or heck, let's just ignore Chaos for a while. It's not needed. The Imperium has the Emperor, who is a Warp Entity in his own right. Not to mention, he's more powerful than all 4 chaos gods put together. I'm sorry, you were saying something again?

On Discworld's Magical Protection

It's been pretty established that everything on Discworld runs on belief, and the reverse probability is no exception. Does anything on the Disc possess the white-hot burning passion of an Imperial Cult Priest, or the righteous fury of a Battle Sister? I find it hard to comprehend, given how most Discworldians are portrayed as generally faithless people who only worship gods for personal profit.

Regardless, it doesnt matter, as usual. You say physics and time break down? Oh hi, say hello to Warp! Physics? The Warp knows no such term! The Immaterium is a place where Physics and Time are unheard of. Warp Entities can match Anthropomorphic Personizations on their own terms. And they'd win. Discworld Death is but a minor avatar of Azrael, the face of Uncreation. That's what we call a Greater Daemon.

Ditto for War, Pestilence, Kaos, etc.

Azrael versus Chaos undivided? Now that's a fair fight.

PS: Death doesn't get all his powers from Azrael per se. In Reaper Man, his powers went away to the new Death because of a change in people's mindsets, and he was reduced to a powerless skeleton.

[GoC]

Refuting General Statements:

On Granny's Willpower and capability to withstand Chaos.

Granny Weatherwax is able to resist the intrusions of the Dungeon Dimensions, just as she can stare down Death in the eye and not flinch. This will, however, not help here against the combined might of Chaos Undivided. The Dungeon Dimensions-beings are weak, weak because they have no believers. And that is why they are always seeking a foothold in the material realm, why they are constantly straining to burst out of their prison.

In contrast, Chaos has not only burst free of its prison, it ravaged it and constantly threatens to spill over and completely overwhelm the entire material plane. It is unknown what even holds it back; theories range from the Laughing God to Necron Pylons to the God-Emperor himself. Granny may be able to resist the stare of a minor divine entity, or the conniptions of minor warp entities, but she will fold against the raw might of Chaos.

You don't get it. Granny Weatherfax ALWAYS wins. Period. Think Squirrel Girl.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Oh, pardon me. In my ignorance, I assumed that the Imperium was comprised of human beings, of whom even the most rabidly and fanatically religious will offer an enemy the chance to convert or die, as opposed to simply killing anyone that is different from themselves.

Seriously, if the Imperium is as fundamentally opposed to the concept of difference as you seem to be suggesting, then their society would be made up entirely of clones of the God-Emperor, all hooked up to a Borg-style collective, thus eliminating all potential for any sort of difference within their society. They would be routinely scanned for mutations; any mutations, any at all, count as a difference from the template and would result in termination of the subject. Since it is impossible for a genetic being to exist for even a single year without acquiring minor mutations based on environmental factors, there would be no army; the God-Emperor would be constantly attempting and failing to breed a perfect clone. And even more to the point, since his environment would be mutating him as this went on, he would have to constantly alter the clone template, so that even if he succeeded in creating a process that mimicked his DNA exactly, down to every mutation in every cell, he'd have to wipe out the current batch and start all over again the instant a single allele in a single cell got hit by a random neutrino.

In short: A society as intolerant as your vision of the Imperium can only exist by writer fiat, aka narrative necessity, aka Plot.

On the Disc, the principles of narrative are actual physical laws on par with electromagnetism and the strong nuclear force.

Being a society that can only exist because of the principles of narrative, your Imperium would therefore be vulnerable to these forces.

Therefore, the ENTIRE ARMED FORCES OF THE IMPERIUM OF MAN could be defeated by Carrot Ironfoundersson, fighting unarmed and unarmored, merely because according to narrative principle, hero who is that hopelessly outnumbnered and outmatched literally cannot lose.

[Artemician]

Oh, pardon me. In my ignorance, I assumed that the Imperium was comprised of human beings, of whom even the most rabidly and fanatically religious will offer an enemy the chance to convert or die, as opposed to simply killing anyone that is different from themselves.

The Imperium is composed of human beings, who may or may not all be rabidly or fanatically religious. However, the military arm of the Imperium, which is the one involved in the scenario, can and has been shown itself to be extremely willing to execute and purge those that it considers unclean, with or without a chance to defend themselves?

Extreme? Why, that's hard-wired into the very nature of the Imperium. It's not something that's totally unheard of in the real world either.


Seriously, if the Imperium is as fundamentally opposed to the concept of difference as you seem to be suggesting, then their society would be made up entirely of clones of the God-Emperor, all hooked up to a Borg-style collective, thus eliminating all potential for any sort of difference within their society. <snip>

Falsh dichotomy. There exist medians between a tolerant society, and a complete and utter Borg-nest as you described. The Imperium runs on xenophobia, close-mindedness and other such ills. Mutants are executed, heretics burnt without trial, etcetera. However, it is far from being a Borg-hive as you have described.


In short: A society as intolerant as your vision of the Imperium can only exist by writer fiat, aka narrative necessity, aka Plot.

On the Disc, the principles of narrative are actual physical laws on par with electromagnetism and the strong nuclear force.

Being a society that can only exist because of the principles of narrative, your Imperium would therefore be vulnerable to these forces.

Therefore, the ENTIRE ARMED FORCES OF THE IMPERIUM OF MAN could be defeated by Carrot Ironfoundersson, fighting unarmed and unarmored, merely because according to narrative principle, hero who is that hopelessly outnumbnered and outmatched literally cannot lose.

I have a number of beefs with this kind of sweeping statement.

1) The Imperium is merely a blown up and exxagerated version of real-world attitudes, held by real people. It's not really a far step off from our world; it is definitely possible to postulate of worse. 1984? Brave New World? Are you then going to claim that any form of dystopian society is created through writer fiat? Human nature runs both darker and brighter than any of us will ever know.

2) Regardless, your point falls flat. Why? Because every work of fiction only exists because the writer creates it. Just as a society like the Imperium can only exist because the writers decided to put in the Immaterium, a society presented in a chick-lit story can only exist because the writers decided to write everyone in a dumb fashion. Does that necessarily mean that all stories run on Narritivum in the manner of Discworld? A resounding no!

3) What is Narrative Convention? To my knowledge, an outnumbered and outmatched man who fights superior forces is usually stabbed multiple times and cut down from all sides, without causing significant damage. I can think of multiple examples; from all manners of literature. Can you gainsay that? Yes, superior numbers I grant you, but definitely not Outmatched. Folk heroes, such as Cuchullain and Achilles, were able to cut down armies, not because they were weaker, but because they were stronger. To pit Achilles against an army of Heracleses would result in his fast and painful death, by narrative convention.

That's called a heroic (but ultimately futile) last stand. A Bolivian Army Ending, if you will.

[WNxHasoroth]

No no, the Imperium offers you the choice to convert and die, far less painfully but still death.

It's a souped up Nazi style government on some planets, and a pleasant idyllic place on others. The gothic architecture, skulls and eagles found everywhere are just what you're expected to see. Enough references are made in books to normal places, not labyrinthine, bureaucratic, and ruthless planets that people forget do not comprise the whole of the Imperium.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Okay, how's this for an argument:

Premise 1: The inhabitants of the Disc possess no means of reliable interstellar or even interplanetary travel.

Premise 2: The Imperium of Man does possess a reliable means of interplanetary and interstellar travel.

Subconclusion 1: This confrontation is taking place on or in the vicinity of the Disc, within the Disc's Narrativium Field.

Premise 3: The Imperium of Man, being from what I can determine a rigidly hierarchical, authoritarian, even theocratic society which is speciesist, deeply and intolerantly religious, and not at all restrained in its use of violence as a means of ending disputes, when contrasted against the inhabitants of the Discworld, meets almost perfectly the definition of a force of evil.

Premise 4: The inhabitants of the Disc corresponding meet the definition of a force of good.

Premise 5: According to the Narrative Conventions established by the series of novels set on the Disc, a smaller goodly force will always ultimately triumph over a much larger evil force.

Subconclusion 2: The inhabitants of the Disc being the smaller goodly force, and the Imperium of Man being the larger evil force, the inhabitants of the Disc will ultimately triumph.

Premise 6: Ultimate triumph precludes the destruction of the goodly force prior to the destruction of the evil force.

Premise 7: Ultimate triumph is by definition a victory.

Conclusion: The inhabitants of the Disc, thanks to the advantages granted by the Plot Field of their home territory, will be ultimately victorious over the Imperium of Man, which will be destroyed prior to the destruction of the inhabitants of the Disc.

[LordVader]

Well, of course any small but ridiculously powerful magical universe (like this Discworld, or Exalted) will triumph over the Imperium, or Sci-Fi in general. Science Fiction tends to be more bound to the laws of reality then equivalent fantasy universes, and suffers as a result.

However, I would dispute that the Imperium is the "bad guys". The Imperium is ruthless and corrupt, but at it's heart it is just humans trying to survive. If the Discworld inhabitants start slaughtering the average Imperial citizen wholesale, are they still "good guys"? Indeed, how do you define "good guys"?

I find that premise to really be too vague in most cases. The upper castes of the Imperial goverment may in some cases fit the definition of "bad guys" perfectly, but that doesn't mean the average citizen does.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Perhaps destruction was too strong a word. For the Discworld doing to the Imperium, I meant it in the sense of "rendering the Imperium of Man's system of government unable to perpetuate itself," not in the sense of, "Kill every last man, woman, child, and family pet, salt the earth they lived on, and then break out the planetbusters".

I expect the Imperium would not be able to differentiate between the two.

[Cubey]

3) What is Narrative Convention? To my knowledge, an outnumbered and outmatched man who fights superior forces is usually stabbed multiple times and cut down from all sides, without causing significant damage.

That's how it works in real life and in most pieces of literature. Not on the Disc however - here, the outmatched guys ALWAYS win if they're the good guys. Some of them may die heroically but they will win somehow, no matter what a deus ex machina should occur to make that happen.

As for the Imperium being evil - I am aware that the average citizen isn't evil, just average. A typical German citizen during the Nazi reign wasn't evil either (Nazis were mentioned here already, so I am immune to Godwin's law) - it doesn't mean the government wasn't. The Imperium of Man may be doing all the atrocities only to make sure it survives, and compared to most other WH40K factions it almost looks benevolent - but when compared to cultures shown in other works of fiction, including the Discworld (which has its fair share of crime and corruption), it is pretty evil in comparison. Ergo, Discworld looks more good in comparison, ergo Discworld people are the "good guys" here.

[LordVader]

I agree that Discworld is more "good" then the Imperium.

However, by that very definition of good and evil, the instant they kill an innocent Imperial citizen, they are now "evil".

But judging by this "narrative convention" crap, this Versus should never have been created in the first place. You cannot compare a universe grounded in reality to one that essentially acknowledges that it is a fictional universe.

[Seraph]

However, by that very definition of good and evil, the instant they kill an innocent Imperial citizen, they are now "evil".

The imperium doesn't send innocent civilians into an exterminatus last time i checked, so no, I don't think this point you keep making is at all valid.

[BRC]

Discworld wins on account of being outnumbered and against unbeatable odds. which, on Discworld means they win.

[Zenos]

Regardless, it doesnt matter, as usual. You say physics and time break down? Oh hi, say hello to Warp! Physics? The Warp knows no such term! The Immaterium is a place where Physics and Time are unheard of. Warp Entities can match Anthropomorphic Personizations on their own terms. And they'd win. Discworld Death is but a minor avatar of Azrael, the face of Uncreation. That's what we call a Greater Daemon.

Now I want to say:

In the Warp Laws of Physics break you!

[Moff Chumley]

Discworld wins because
A) Terry Pratchet beats whoever wrote the WH 40k novels. I dare you to argue.
B) Death has the ability a) stop time and b) kill anyone, at any time. How, exactly, does that not equal insta-win?
C) It would not be funny if The Disc was destroyed. End of story.

[Cubey]

But judging by this "narrative convention" crap, this Versus should never have been created in the first place. You cannot compare a universe grounded in reality to one that essentially acknowledges that it is a fictional universe.

Allow me to chuckle a bit at the thought of WH40K being "grounded in reality". Okay, to the point - indeed. Discworld works like if created by an extremely genre savvy extremist god. There is one way for Imperium to win, and I described it already - even the odds by sending something pitiful to conquer the Disc, and they'd succeed. Of course, if Joe Guardsman feels loyal to his new underlings, the Imperium is in for an unpleasant surprise when they arrive to cement their new victory and find Joe willing to fight against them - and since there's only one of him, he's bound to win this one too.

Seriously, there are things you don't put in the VS threads because they're too powerful tech-wise, like the Culture, and things you don't put because they're too powerful plot-wise. Discworld is one of them. Squirrel Girl and Haruhi Suzumiya are others. You can't treat such threads seriously. You can only use them as a mine for funny stuff.

[Zenos]

Allow me to chuckle a bit at the thought of WH40K being "grounded in reality". Okay, to the point - indeed. Discworld works like if created by an extremely genre savvy extremist god. There is one way for Imperium to win, and I described it already - even the odds by sending something pitiful to conquer the Disc, and they'd succeed. Of course, if Joe Guardsman feels loyal to his new underlings, the Imperium is in for an unpleasant surprise when they arrive to cement their new victory and find Joe willing to fight against them - and since there's only one of him, he's bound to win this one too.

Seriously, there are things you don't put in the VS threads because they're too powerful tech-wise, like the Culture, and things you don't put because they're too powerful plot-wise. Discworld is one of them. Squirrel Girl and Haruhi Suzumiya are others. You can't treat such threads seriously. You can only use them as a mine for funny stuff.

I remember the Pucca vs Gandalf thread.

[Lyesmith]

Who is Pucca? And, there are things posessing *More* Stupidly OTT levels of firepower than 40K? Good gods! i feel a bit sick now, actually.

[Lyesmith]

Who is Pucca? And, there are things posessing *More* Stupidly OTT levels of firepower than 40K? Good gods! i feel a bit sick now, actually.

[The_JJ]

Disc could win without plot/narritive casualty help. 4 independent reasons why:
1st. Deja Fu. Time slice in the face. When you can effectively go bullet time at will, for extended periods, tech doesn't matter.
2nd. Granny Weatherwax + her puppets, most importantly Tiffany Aching and THA WEE FREE MEN!!! 6 inches tall, superfast and yes, capable of headbutting anything into submission.
3rd. Susan. Take history monk time stoppage, Wee Free Man willpower and mindset, if need be, add sword of infinate sharpness and walking through walls. And Binky.
4th. The Luggage. Fear it.

others with helpingness: Cohen, Hex, Lobsang?, Black Ribboners and werewolfs (is silver standard issue? I think not.)

oh, and to choas I say this, meet the Auditors.


Discworld wins because
A) Terry Pratchet beats whoever wrote the WH 40k novels. I dare you to argue.
B) Death has the ability a) stop time and b) kill anyone, at any time. How, exactly, does that not equal insta-win?
C) It would not be funny if The Disc was destroyed. End of story.

actually Death doesn't kill people. He just collects them :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Other major discworld players who could fight directly:
The unseen University Wizards, the Golem Trust, Death, the Gods, the Trolls, the demons, the frost giants, coin, the red army of the counterweight continent... and so on. Of course, they are still all terribly outnumbered.

Oh, and in the first book, Death kills. But that might be a little non-canon by now.

[The_JJ]

Yeah, but even at the end Rincewind was all "But I have to die from something"

[Ominous]

Coin could probably defeat the entire IoM solo, seeing as how anything he wants to happen does happen. It would be like asking who would win in a battle between the IoM and Q from Star Trek.

[The_JJ]

Well, yeah, but last we saw he was in his own lil' buble world to prevent the Dungeon Dimensions from utterly destroying the universe

[GoC]

I remember the Pucca vs Gandalf thread.

That one was fun.:smallcool:
Pucca won by canon abilities!


Other major discworld players who could fight directly:
The unseen University Wizards, the Golem Trust, Death, the Gods, the Trolls, the demons, the frost giants, coin, the red army of the counterweight continent... and so on. Of course, they are still all terribly outnumbered.

Oh, and in the first book, Death kills. But that might be a little non-canon by now.
While the wizards, the golems, the trolls, the demons, the frost giants, the gods and the red army are irrelevant the other two are invincible.

The_JJ: My favorite book...

[The_JJ]

Which one? Sourcery?

Personally, I liked Small Gods, Night Watch, and Reaper Man.

But both Thud! and Hogfather had some great quotes.

[GoC]

Which one? Sourcery?

Personally, I liked Small Gods, Night Watch, and Reaper Man.

But both Thud! and Hogfather had some great quotes.
Yep.
I haven't read Thud! or Hogfather yet but the books you mention are also excellent!

[The_JJ]

Well its Terry Prachett... His worst stuff is merely mediocre, his best... I go on but I'd only commit blasphemy. Of course they're excellent books.

Thud! was good, but not as good as Night Watch. It had a nice look into Vimes' mind ("I am the Guarding Dark, imagine how strond I must be... I am not here to keep darkness out, but to keep it in.") As well as the coolest berserk rage ever. WH40K guys better try not to mess with little Sam.

[Eita]

The imperium doesn't send innocent civilians into an exterminatus last time i checked, so no, I don't think this point you keep making is at all valid.

Err.... Where are you getting your info from...?

[factotum]

Who is Pucca? And, there are things posessing *More* Stupidly OTT levels of firepower than 40K? Good gods! i feel a bit sick now, actually.

In the back of "Consider Phlebas" it lists the casualties of the war between the Culture and the Idirans. There are several (I forget exactly how many) stars on that list...not planets, actual stars that got changed so severely due to war action that they changed to a different type or lost significant fractions of their mass. I don't think the IoM has ever damaged a star, though I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Mind you, that means that the universe of "Andromeda" is even MORE powerful, because their warships routinely carry nova bombs that are capable of sending a star supernova...

[Artemician]

Nyup Nychup.

Basically everyone's just repeating the same point, aren't they? The Disc is horrible outnumbered and outgunned, therefore they win by the laws of the Disc.

The biggest flaw with this argument is that the Immaterium ignores the Laws of the Disc just as easily as it ignores the Laws of Physics. And just as a person who ignores physics can circumvent entropy and time travel, a universe which ignores Narritivum circumvents narrative convention.

Another alternative way of looking at it, is that the Immaterium is distilled power of Belief and Plot confined in its own private demiplane.

Regardless, in both of these scenarios, the Discworld loses. If the Daemons do not get it first, Sanctioned Psykers of the Imperium will blast it to kingdom come. No amount of plot shield will protect you against something that circumvents plot. Either that, or a stronger blast of plot disintegrates the Disc.

People.. often cite Plot Power as a fail-safe, be all and end all win condition for the Disc. Under normal conditions, yes, it would be. However, in the case of Warhammer 40K, there exists the Immaterium, a plane where physical laws, including Narrative Casuality break down. And that's why that line of argument fails.

[Eerie]

Nyup Nychup.

Basically everyone's just repeating the same point, aren't they? The Disc is horrible outnumbered and outgunned, therefore they win by the laws of the Disc.

The biggest flaw with this argument is that the Immaterium ignores the Laws of the Disc just as easily as it ignores the Laws of Physics. And just as a person who ignores physics can circumvent entropy and time travel, a universe which ignores Narritivum circumvents narrative convention.

Another alternative way of looking at it, is that the Immaterium is distilled power of Belief and Plot confined in its own private demiplane.

Regardless, in both of these scenarios, the Discworld loses. If the Daemons do not get it first, Sanctioned Psykers of the Imperium will blast it to kingdom come. No amount of plot shield will protect you against something that circumvents plot. Either that, or a stronger blast of plot disintegrates the Disc.

People.. often cite Plot Power as a fail-safe, be all and end all win condition for the Disc. Under normal conditions, yes, it would be. However, in the case of Warhammer 40K, there exists the Immaterium, a plane where physical laws, including Narrative Casuality break down. And that's why that line of argument fails.

Who told you laws of the Discworld won`t ignore the Immaterium?

Also, they have History Monks, who can travel through time and rearrange past.

[Darkone8752]

The universe has a divide by zero error and shuts down.

Why?

Because discworld enters itself. Remember, the IoM is just another universe inside a tiny globe in rincewinds office :smalltongue:

Ignoring that, I'm still dumbfounded by anyone actually believing warp daemons are more powerful then the creatures of the DD. Bel'y is so powerful that mearly mentioning the number that is one greater then seven, one less then 9, two times 4, and the square root of 64 can get you possessed if you're a wizard. Keep in mind before you bring up daemon possession, wizards can annihalate entire cities, create fields of magic so dense that they "break" the universe, and are overall powerful- they're not psykers. Remember also, they basicly did genesis, creating the universe using a single thaumic reactor. That, and pitting any universe against Death, or even worse, Time (not sure on this but its been talked about someone who controls time before, so.... yea), is a bad idea. That, and what happens when a psyker interacts with an extremely powerful magical field? When a psyker attacks soemthing, is "part of him" in a sense there like a psychic attack?

And, as said before, this entire Versus is stupid and fails for not thinking this out a little before hand.

[Green Bean]

The imperium doesn't send innocent civilians into an exterminatus last time i checked, so no, I don't think this point you keep making is at all valid.

You're correct. The Imperium won't send any innocent civilians into the line of fire. Of course, their philosophy is, "there is no innocence, only degrees of guilt," so it really isn't saying much.

[Artemician]

Who told you laws of the Discworld won`t ignore the Immaterium?

Also, they have History Monks, who can travel through time and rearrange past.

On the Disc, Narrative Casualty is a physical Law. The Immaterium ignores all physical laws, including Casualty. It works like that. Unless, of course, it's fuelled through belief, in which case the combined might of a million worlds who believe otherwise crushes "Narrative Casualty" flat.

And as for History Monks, you can't rearrange something that isn't there. The Immaterium screws with Space and Time in a way that is beyond human ken. It'll be like the glass clock incident, only infinitely worse.


I'm still dumbfounded by anyone actually believing warp daemons are more powerful then the creatures of the DD. Bel'y is so powerful that mearly mentioning the number that is one greater then seven, one less then 9, two times 4, and the square root of 64 can get you possessed if you're a wizard. Keep in mind before you bring up daemon possession, wizards can annihalate entire cities, create fields of magic so dense that they "break" the universe, and are overall powerful- they're not psykers. Remember also, they basicly did genesis, creating the universe using a single thaumic reactor.

The Warhammer 40K universe is not Roundworld. For one, it has magic (or its equavilent inside). Therefore it's not on Rincewind's desk. Phail.

In addition, most of the feats you attribute to Wizards are in fact, not pure representations of their power, but rather side effects of how thin the fabric of the Discworld universe is. It's incredibly easy to break the universe if it's as thin as a sheet of tissue. Which is how Pratchett describes the Disc.

Genesis - that was an accident, and for the Wizards to consciously try to use magic in that kind of quantities would be to mean exploding. There's a difference between a Power Capacity an effective Power Capacity. Wizards may have created the Universe by accident, but for them to channel an equal amount of magic effectively is impossible.


That, and pitting any universe against Death, or even worse, Time (not sure on this but its been talked about someone who controls time before, so.... yea), is a bad idea. That, and what happens when a psyker interacts with an extremely powerful magical field? When a psyker attacks soemthing, is "part of him" in a sense there like a psychic attack?

Death/Time and all other Anthropomorphic personalizations, they all suffer from the same problem. They are anthropomorphic. They too have flaws, because they became human, when they cloaked them in belief. That is why War was tired, why Pestilence was Afraid, why Famine was arrogant. And humans can be slain. Belief affects them too, just as it affects any other being. Having people lose belief in you can and will result in a loss of power (as Bill Door can attest).

On the other hand, Warp Entities cannot be defeated unless you destroy every spark of sapient life in the entire universe. To end Slaanesh would mean destroying all Joy, to end Tzeench quashing all Hope. They are undefeatable. The same applies for the Emperor. To put an end to him would mean having to defeat every single person in the universe who has Faith.

On a side note; why the hell would the anthropomorphic personalizations give a damn? Death may object, but for the others - it's not really a matter of their concern. There are other universes- other worlds to mind.

[The_JJ]

Well, I can certainly see Death involving other people.
Even so, the Disc has people on it who are indeed focused on it staying whole and capable of doing so. For example, Lobsang Ludd has a vested intrest with keeping the Disc whole (Susan and Lao Tse) and can at will change time. He could simply 'slice' the A'Tuin past the danger zone, and no one would lose or gain, though the Discians might otice a sudden change in constellations. Or the Luggage could spit up the Octavo and have a ditto result (it's done it before)

[puppyavenger]

On the other hand, Warp Entities cannot be defeated unless you destroy every spark of sapient life in the entire universe. To end Slaanesh would mean destroying all Joy, to end Tzeench quashing all Hope. They are undefeatable. The same applies for the Emperor. To put an end to him would mean having to defeat every single person in the universe who has Faith.
.

and those are just one of the emotions each emboides, and probably the most positive one.

EDIT, use belief against them, The space marines are terrifying from a completly objective point of view, what will they be like cloaked in the fear and belief of half the disk?

[Rutee]

Concepts and embodiments can still be smacked around and imprisoned, so the difficulty in killing them isn't a huge deal, the way I see it. Now, that said..

"On the Disc, Narrative Casualty is a physical Law. The Immaterium ignores all physical laws, including Casualty. It works like that. Unless, of course, it's fuelled through belief, in which case the combined might of a million worlds who believe otherwise crushes "Narrative Casualty" flat."
This is an interesting point. I don't know about its' accuracy, and I don't care about the versus either way.. but it's an interesting point.

[The_JJ]

Quite frankly, if the Disc goes any where that has too high of a realtiy factor it implodes on itself. If it goes anywhere (or becomes) less real then the DD break through. Redo from Start

[The_Snark]

On the other hand, Warp Entities cannot be defeated unless you destroy every spark of sapient life in the entire universe. To end Slaanesh would mean destroying all Joy, to end Tzeench quashing all Hope. They are undefeatable. The same applies for the Emperor. To put an end to him would mean having to defeat every single person in the universe who has Faith.

Sounds like a job for Mr. Teatime.

In any case: Narrative causality is not a physical law on the Disc. It's a thing so strong that it has an actual physical presence and element.

The laws of physics and time are not at all the same as narrative causality.


Quite frankly, if the Disc goes any where that has too high of a realtiy factor it implodes on itself. If it goes anywhere (or becomes) less real then the DD break through. Redo from Start

Yes. This, too.

[Darkone8752]

In addition, most of the feats you attribute to Wizards are in fact, not pure representations of their power, but rather side effects of how thin the fabric of the Discworld universe is. It's incredibly easy to break the universe if it's as thin as a sheet of tissue. Which is how Pratchett describes the Disc.
No, the idea of wild magic zones negates that. Areas not where the universe is broken, but theres still so much energy that odd things happen- for a given value of odd to energy ratio. IE something small like a coin landing on its edge, or something rather more distressing such as waking up as a feature of the landscape.


Genesis - that was an accident, and for the Wizards to consciously try to use magic in that kind of quantities would be to mean exploding. There's a difference between a Power Capacity an effective Power Capacity. Wizards may have created the Universe by accident, but for them to channel an equal amount of magic effectively is impossible.
Fail. Read the science of discworld- the students were PLAYING with planets. Hex shows itself to be able to channel the thaumic reactors power to alter the universe within the globe. That, and draw up the energy to even teleport someone in the "real" world (sending wizards to and from the god of evolutions island). Though you're right about exploding. But then again, if someone wants to destroy you, an exploisive force of over one million thaums* could be rather useful.

The idea of soemthing being slay'able because its an anthropomorphic personality has a major flaw. If death could even be affected by physical dangers- much less actually die from them, why hasn't it happened yet? The great wars between the wizards easily would've had enough power to slag him into a quivering mound of fat pile of dust and burnt fabric. Note that there is more then one death, in fact, Death in the novels is a servant technically. Quote from wiki-

Azrael, also known as the Great Attractor and the Death of Universes, is apparently not a worshipped god on the Discworld, but he exists nonetheless, and is an entity of enormously unthinkable scope and size. While there are many 'Deaths' for different worlds (who are themselves divided into Deaths for different creatures) in the Discworld novels Azrael is their ruler. All other Deaths are aspects of him (a similar relationship as the Discworld Death has to the Death of Rats). He does die, but is simply replaced by another death. You can't kill the concept of death, because that is paradoxical- hes also not killed by conventional possible means but by loss of belief, which is irrelevant. Each personality minds its own disc.

*It melts the thaumometer

[The_JJ]

I think we can declare a Discworld victory. Right?

Or at least a draw.

[Ominous]

On the other hand, Warp Entities cannot be defeated unless you destroy every spark of sapient life in the entire universe. To end Slaanesh would mean destroying all Joy, to end Tzeench quashing all Hope. They are undefeatable. The same applies for the Emperor. To put an end to him would mean having to defeat every single person in the universe who has Faith.

Give the Auditors of Reality time. Like all Bureaucracies, they work very slowly.


On a side note; why the hell would the anthropomorphic personalizations give a damn? Death may object, but for the others - it's not really a matter of their concern. There are other universes- other worlds to mind.

Death is the Death of only Discworld. Once Discworld is gone, so is Death. Azrael one of the Old High Ones is the Death of Worlds; he's the one who makes sure all the deaths are doing their jobs.

[Eita]

Actually, you can kill Warp Entities. The Emperor nearly one-shotted all four Chaos Gods. To kill a Chaos God though, you have to be more powerful then one in psychic terms.

[Adumbration]

Soon to be on the walls of Imperium...

"Do not ask us about Mrs Cake."


EDIT: I actually came up with a way that the Discworld could actually win.

The Discworld starts approaching a low-magic field of the WH40K universe. The wizards notice the gradual failing of the spells, and realize that soon Great A'Tuin might implode.

What do they do? They call in the Sourcerors. The sources of magic. It makes sense, doesn't it? Or, as Archcancellor says, "It's bloody time they did something good." Realizing, though, that the Discworld itself is too fragile for sourcerors, Stibbons makes up a spaceship, and they fly to space. They possibly take Octavo or some other magical books to uphold their magic in low-magic environment. This won't be a problem when the sourcerors arrive.

The wizards do the arcane ritual to summon the sourcerors from their private universes (narrativium, so this works.). The sourcerors are likely to agree - this is the world they were born to that is about to be destroyed, and it's plausible that they've become a bit bored of their own worlds already. Spacetowers are born, and they move with the Great A'Tuin at a certain distance, providing magic for it to exist.

Now the Discworld has several hundred sourcerors to protect it from space invasion. And can you honestly tell that the Imperium stands a chance? Not taking into account the powerful yet deliciously unstable magic field they create, missiles make nice flowerpots, and the spaceships are very convenient for new spacetowers. Of course, with slight modifications so that the sourcerors can actually see where they're going.

[factotum]

That assumes the magic field of the Discworld is something external to it, and I don't think it is...the Discworld projects its own magical field, so it makes no difference how magical or otherwise the space Great A'Tuin is swimming through is.

[Adumbration]

Then what happened in the Light Fantastic?

[dehro]

Great A`Tuin accidentally swims into Warhammer 40K galaxy.

What happens next?

trample trample, swim swim...lotsa ruins...of we go (A'Tuin that is)

[factotum]

Then what happened in the Light Fantastic?

Oh, I was forgetting about that...you mean the bit where the "tides of reality" were threatening to strip the Disc from Great A'Tuin's back? Yes, that does make things a bit tricky...

[Adumbration]

Which lead to my suggestion about the sourcerors. If anything can keep the reality at bay, it is them. :smallwink:

[The_JJ]

Hmm... of course! The disc is sitting on the edge of a knife (stray but a little... you know the rest) but if it were to go to a place with to much reality, they HAVE the counter measure, the sourcers. It's BRILLIENT! Discworld FTW!

[Idiotbox90]

I'm not sure if the Discworld is capable of winning this. You have to remember that although the Discworld runs off of Narrativum, WH40K has a force of its own. Let's call it GrimDark.

Although Narrativium works to ensure that good will defeat evil, GrimDark ensures that the galaxy stays a floating bundle of "Only War" and heretic burning.

It will really depend on what's stronger, Discworld's Narrativium or the Imperium's GrimDark.

[D_Lord]

If we are going into a believe war then the anwer is clear. The Discworld wins. The readers like discworld far more then the Imperium. So what if there is hundreds hiveworlds in it. One reader equals all of them and more. More people know and read and like discworld then this Imperium. So that means the by the power of the readers The Discworld wins and the Imperium falls into nothing.

[Artemician]

If we are going into a believe war then the anwer is clear. The Discworld wins. The readers like discworld far more then the Imperium. So what if there is hundreds hiveworlds in it. One reader equals all of them and more. More people know and read and like discworld then this Imperium. So that means the by the power of the readers The Discworld wins and the Imperium falls into nothing.

Lolwhut?

What is this "reader" you speak of? I know no such word. Where on the Disc, or in the galaxy exist this race of superpowerful beings you term "Readers?" The only explanation I can provide, is that you must be a foul cultist, and that a Reader is just another term you use for Chaos.

Away with thee! [/sarcasm]

This isn't a popularity poll. The aim is to debate which one side would win a theoetical clash, not which side is more popular. I'm not arguing that Warhammer wins because it's more popular. I'm arguing that it wins because i think The Warp can overcome Narritivium.

Separate what's real from what's fake!

[Rutee]

This isn't a popularity poll. The aim is to debate which one side would win a theoetical clash, not which side is more popular. I'm not arguing that Warhammer wins because it's more popular. I'm arguing that it wins because i think The Warp can overcome Narritivium.
Isn't that the point where people must agree to disagree? I know that it's not a satisfying end, but.. can evidence really be provided either way?

[Artemician]

Isn't that the point where people must agree to disagree? I know that it's not a satisfying end, but.. can evidence really be provided either way?

Indeed. That's why I stopped really seriously posting, no?

Was fun arguing though.