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TaintedLight
2008-01-19, 08:14 PM
As you may be able to tell, my character has rather an interesting problem.
During my current campaign, our party was traveling to Sharn (Eberron campaign) and we were attacked on the road by a Karrnathi Skeleton. The party barely managed to kill it, but unfortunately my male half-elf ninja was killed in one mighty blow (brought me to -22 from 16). I was in about three pieces, and so the rest of the party, a human monk and a human knight decided that they were better off resurrecting me before we set off again. Unfortunately, the only candidate was a goblin shaman who knew reincarnation but no other resurrection spells. I was reincarnated as a female changeling. This leaves my character mighty confused as to why he is no longer a half elf, and more importantly why he is now female.

Before his/her death, Kamasis was a straight half elven male. S/he is definately having a hard time coming to terms with this new change in him(her?)self, and so I am not sure how to roleplay that. For now, I am using the justification that s/he is still in shock to a degree and has yet to really face what has happened, so s/he is acting as normal for the most part. She is using her changeling ability to assume her old half elven form (in appearance, at least) at all times. At the moment, his/her old mentality is still intact, but it will probably have to change with his/her new horomones and brain wiring. Since his/her body is now technically female, I don't know if s/he would still be interested in women, if s/he is now interested in men, or both. S/he is fairly proud, and so will probably be in denial for at least a few weeks. His/Her family is part of an old ninja village, and s/he is not really sure if they would disown him/her for what s/he has become, but the real questions are 1) how this will change our party dynamic, 2) how this should affect Kamasis's mentality, and 3) how his family would react.

Any suggestions? (Kamasis is CG)

This post will explain my avatar I think.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-19, 08:24 PM
Just act with no gender at all. Like Vaarsuvius.

Either that, or act like your regular self for quite a while, but slowly change to a more femenin mindset. Sloooowlly. . .

But if you're a ninja, you should be happy that you can change shape! :smallcool:

Ryuuk
2008-01-19, 08:31 PM
You know, Ninjas seem to unr into this problem more then other classes, probably just a coincidence though.

How important is gender to a changeling though? I haven't had much experience in Eberron, but isn't their shape changing deeper then a Disguise Self spell?

TaintedLight
2008-01-19, 08:36 PM
Shas'aia: To be honest, that shapechanging ability has REALLY come in handy! That's one of the main reasons that s/he is doing so well as a ninja now, and helps me to roleplay Kamasis's denial better.

Ryuuk: Unfortunately, while the shapechange can be maintained indefinately, it can only change appearance. Changelings are specifically described as having gender, but the ability is as a disguise self spell, so I can make only minor modifications. My DM has ruled that I can make a convincing imitation of a male if I want to, though.

Quietus
2008-01-19, 08:39 PM
Well, if Kamasis is Chaotic, S/he might decide that her family doesn't necessarily need to know, at least not right away. Staying in the physical form of your old self might help to keep your normal state of mind, as well, since very little will change physically if you're not in a female form.

That being said, it could be interesting to roleplay the slow acceptance of your new gender... could lead to a lot of RP possibilities.

TaintedLight
2008-01-19, 08:47 PM
Quietus: Kamasis has decided for the time being that s/he will not tell her family about what has happened to her, especially because of a story event that took place recently. Since the party was nearly broke after resurrecting me, we have been doing odd jobs (on both sides of the law) to raise more money to pay our traveling expenses. The last job we did was an assasination of someone wanted for over 20 capital crimes, so Kamasis's CG alignment said she had no issues with bringing this guy to justice. As it turns out, the "guy" was a female human ninja from Kamasis's own village, and she got away from our party during the attempt (7th level ninja). Kamasis had no idea that she was wanted for all these crimes, and is terrified of what might happen if the enemy gets back to the village and K comes back matching the description of the assasin. And thus, a new RP opp is born...

Parvum
2008-01-19, 08:48 PM
Screw gender. They're Doppelganger babies. Though changelings do have gender, they're still part doppelganger, and such changes shouldn't cause great variation in their personality. However, I'm saying all this from the perspective that changelings can actually shift gender, which seems to be incorrect in your campaign. But you can still use a 'doppelganger blood' excuse if they say your hormones will act up. Paranoia conquers all gender barriers, and if memory serves, changelings are FULL of it.

kamikasei
2008-01-19, 08:53 PM
Ryuuk: Unfortunately, while the shapechange can be maintained indefinately, it can only change appearance. Changelings are specifically described as having gender, but the ability is as a disguise self spell, so I can make only minor modifications. My DM has ruled that I can make a convincing imitation of a male if I want to, though.

Not according to Races of Eberron; Changelings can indeed change their entire physiology. To wit:


Unlike doppelgangers, which are entirely genderless, a changeling does indeed have a default gender that manifests in adolescence, but each changeling can adapt his or her form to be of either gender, hermaphroditic (both genders simultaneously), or entirely genderless. A changeling can alter his or her gender (and reproductive abilities) as part of using the race's minor shapechange ability.

It sounds like things are slightly different in your game, but you might point the DM at this and ask whether you can play like that, which would basically let you off the hook.

edit: Also note:

If a changeling in a female form conceives a child, she loses the ability to change her gender until after the child is born.

Which uses "...in a female form" rather than "a female changeling".

There's also a feat in the book to let you assume a subtype when you change. That's rather more than disguise self can pull off.

Also: you might want to PM a moderator to get the two threads merged.

blackspeeker
2008-01-19, 08:55 PM
There is an eberron book, that has a rather lengthy section on changelings, one of the sections states that while changelings manifest a gender at puberty, they aren't really stuck with it, you can technically switch genders at will, please dont ask me the title, I only bring it up because m DM had me read that whole section to truly understand the changeling.

Edit: Races of Eberron, thats what they call it.

TaintedLight
2008-01-19, 09:01 PM
kamikasei: What you said is probably true, and I will bring this up to my DM. For the time being, though, he told me that I will always be considered female from a game mechanic perspective and that the shapechange is only skin-deep. It would be a relief for Kamasis if s/he could just change her gender though.

Tren
2008-01-19, 09:02 PM
If your character really is a proud person, maybe they'll come to feel in time that their outward appearance has little to do with who they are, and whether s/he is a female changeling, a male half-elf, or something altogether different, it's irrelevant to his/her life and the choices s/he makes.

Kyeudo
2008-01-19, 09:05 PM
In Races of Eberron, the sourcebook for Changling culture in Eberron, it is noted that the change from Minor Shapechange is completely physical, to the point where a normaly male changling can get pregnant if in female form.

Some changlings are noted as having lots of fun with this. One of the folkstories in the book is Bin the Marvelous Lover, a changling that saw more action in a month than most hookers see in a year, and he played both sides of the fence.

Changelings do have a default shape and gender, but that is what they are when they turn off their shapechange ability. The rest of the time they can be what they want to be.

kamikasei
2008-01-19, 09:12 PM
kamikasei: What you said is probably true, and I will bring this up to my DM. For the time being, though, he told me that I will always be considered female from a game mechanic perspective and that the shapechange is only skin-deep. It would be a relief for Kamasis if s/he could just change her gender though.

I would hope your DM considers those quotes, since it seems clear to me the designers intended to make the whole question a matter of "whatever you, the player, are comfortable with".

That said, it really is still up to you. I take it from your description that the ability in your game has been more or less ruled to be "you can look like a guy, but it's essentially a magically-assisted drag act" rather than a DS9-changeling-style "you can _be_ the object of your transformation". Well, there have been cases in the real world of people born female but "gendered" male (if that's the correct term), who have passed as male because it was the identity of their self-image. The person on whom the movie "Boys Don't Cry" was an example, I think.

A lot of it depends on your opinion regarding still-unsettled questions of sex, gender, orientation and identity, nature vs. nurture, etc. For my part I would be inclined to say that the mind or soul of a heterosexual adult male would remain a heterosexual male even if transferred to a female body, because development and childhood would be unaffected. At most you would have a handy excuse to explore any latent tendencies. I don't think you would become attracted to guys just because your new body has different hormones.

TaintedLight
2008-01-19, 09:13 PM
I was unaware of the fact that the change was so thorough, actually. We don't have RoE, but I will be sure to tell my DM about that. One thing still unclear, though: can I make myself a male by default, or will I revert to being female after deactivating shapechange? For example, will an effect that causes shapeshifters to revert to their normal form force me to become female again, or can I make the change absolute at will?

Madmal
2008-01-19, 09:17 PM
If i have read RoE correwctly, then no. iyour new "normal form" is that os a Female changeling, and i don't think it could be so easily changed.

kamikasei
2008-01-19, 09:31 PM
I was unaware of the fact that the change was so thorough, actually. We don't have RoE, but I will be sure to tell my DM about that. One thing still unclear, though: can I make myself a male by default, or will I revert to being female after deactivating shapechange? For example, will an effect that causes shapeshifters to revert to their normal form force me to become female again, or can I make the change absolute at will?

I think anything that could force you out of an assumed form will leave you a grey-skinned, white-haired woman with vague or softened features - a changeling's natural form. You have a default height, weight etc, and your default gender goes along with that. I don't know exactly what can cause that, though. I don't think simple unconsciousness will do it. However, yes, while you can be wearing your normal, default, clearly-a-changeling form except that you're male while you do it, you're still shapeshifted.

thorgrim29
2008-01-19, 09:39 PM
Not a problem realy..... you're a changeling. i imagine a bit of freaking out, but it'd be more due to being a changeling then a female, like a couple of weeks of screwy transformations.

kamikasei
2008-01-19, 09:43 PM
Not a problem realy..... you're a changeling. i imagine a bit of freaking out, but it'd be more due to being a changeling then a female, like a couple of weeks of screwy transformations.

Yeah, I've got to say, I consider your character to have basically Won Reincarnation. I mean, you could have rolled a troglodyte.

Tobrian
2008-01-19, 10:38 PM
Well first of all, in my experience most D&D characters never have onscreen sex with anyone anyway, so gender or sexual orientation is meaningless. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

As for the terminology, it's "transsexual", not "gender-confused", thanks. Gender-confused sounds as if the character just woke up from a booze party and isn't sure who he is or if those legs down there belong to him. :smallbiggrin:


Not according to Races of Eberron; Changelings can indeed change their entire physiology. To wit:


Unlike doppelgangers, which are entirely genderless, a changeling does indeed have a default gender that manifests in adolescence, but each changeling can adapt his or her form to be of either gender, hermaphroditic (both genders simultaneously), or entirely genderless. A changeling can alter his or her gender (and reproductive abilities) as part of using the race's minor shapechange ability.

It sounds like things are slightly different in your game, but you might point the DM at this and ask whether you can play like that, which would basically let you off the hook.


Exactly. It's more like Alter Self than Disguise Self. It's not an illusion, it's a real body morphing.

As for brain chemistry defining sexual orientation and gender self-image... I'm a biologist, don't get me started on this topic :smallwink: , but D&D is not the real world and a changeling is not human. Don't feel forced to play "feminine". What does that mean anyway? Do female barbarians prance around in pink slippers?


In Races of Eberron, the sourcebook for Changling culture in Eberron, it is noted that the change from Minor Shapechange is completely physical, to the point where a normaly male changling can get pregnant if in female form.

A bit like the hermaphrodite alien humanoid race in the novel "The Left Hand of Darkness". They were born genderless, but once puberty hit, they changed back and forth between male and female cycles, with a genderless phase in between. A few years as male, a few years as female... and if they fell in love with another, they could change to the opposite gender if they wanted to conceive/father a child. When spacefaring humans landed on the planet, they had a rather hard time adjusting to a society without clear gender roles.

TaintedLight
2008-01-19, 10:49 PM
To be honest, the DM told me after he resolved the spell that he rerolled because I got a schocker lizard the first time...:smallbiggrin:

I told my DM about this and he has made the necessary adjustments, so everything is great there.

The other thing that is happening here is that I am being told to accept my change and get over it by the DM. He says that Reincarnation is an extremely powerful force of magic, and that it would have altered my mind and memories slightly. To this, I say that I have a hard time accepting that I would forget such a substantial amount about beingborn and raised as a male half elf for the last 24 years. To be fair, he brings up the point that I now have the brain of a changeling and that the transition would be much eased by this. I still think that my identity, Kamasis, is the same and that there would only really be some minor mental changes to an otherwise intact persona. In addition, he says that as a ninja my training would have been intense in defending against spellcasters. For example, I would have been trained not to go catatonic if hit with a polymorph. Even if this is the case, there is a substantial difference between a temporary polymorph and an irreversible change of identity. Once again, he says that I would be used to living in a world of magic and shapeshifting. I feel that he is trying to control the situation a bit, but I may be overreacting. What say the denziens of the Playground?

TaintedLight
2008-01-19, 10:52 PM
The issue is more one of accepting (or not) a new identity based on race and gender change, and what that that would look like.

Tobrian
2008-01-19, 11:02 PM
(See my posting above.)

Ask him if he would force you to change your character's alignment because of a body swap? No he shouldn't. Then why would be force you to change your character's personality? I've unfortunately met GMs and groups who wanted to categorically forbid players from playing crossgender characters, and tried to force me to play a female character. :smallmad: But I've never before heard of this sort of meddling, a GM forcing to a player to switch character gender. It should be entirely up to you. There's no "correct" way to play a woman. THat's as absurd IMO as saying someone who play an elf "correctly"? What does that mean? Elves don't exist, so we're merely acting out a fantasy of what elves are.

Lastly, what does it mean to be "female" in your GM's gameworld? Do women have the same rights as the men? What is the elf's own perception of how an elven woman should behave? And would be try to subconsciously follow that cultural conditioning now that he's a female changeling? What does freak him out more, the race change or the gender change? As long as he doesn't plan on stripping off in front of his mates, who cares? You're a shapeshifter! You could have three breasts if you wanted. You could have two.... [censored] let's say two noses to keep this PG-13. Isn't the elf a little bit curious?

What about the other players, are they making lewd jokes about this?

P.S. Now I so want to play a sentient shocker lizard ninja! :smallbiggrin:

Quietus
2008-01-19, 11:09 PM
As for brain chemistry defining sexual orientation and gender self-image... I'm a biologist, don't get me started on this topic :smallwink: , but D&D is not the real world and a changeling is not human. Don't feel forced to play "feminine". What does that mean anyway? Do female barbarians prance around in pink slippers?

They do if they're six years old and their "rage" is actually a monster tantrum.

I so want to do it.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-19, 11:28 PM
1) Your DM has no say in how you run your character. He could take the gender-change badly and have a mental breakdown. Alternatively, he could slip into his new gender with ease and act as if nothing is different. It's entirely up to you how your character reacts, not your DM.

2) You have the brain of a changeling, but that means nothing since a brain is just a sack of meat when you remove the personality and individualism inherent in sentient creatures.

3) Your gender is inherently Female, as Changelings do have a set gender upon birth. This, of course, is easily interchangeable due to shapechanging. Upon death or being forced to revert to your natural form, you would appear as a gray, featureless, female humanoid.

4) If you don't want to deal with the issue, then you can become entirely genderless by shapechanging your gender away.

Solo
2008-01-19, 11:37 PM
The following webcomic may help you.

http://www.exiern.com/index.php?strip_id=1

Paragon Badger
2008-01-20, 12:02 AM
I'd be mostly concerned about the sudden change in hormones...

A girl may be used to her 'territory' since she was 12, but a guy who has just recently turned into a girl... would be very frightened, I'd think. That first period would be traumatizing to me. :smalltongue: (Or a girl turning into a guy... morning-wood was pretty scary when I was an adolescent!)

Other than that, it doesn't change your 'soul', which is what travels from body to body in reincarnation... I assume. You would still have the same interests and personality quirks (and by extention, attractions)

You could always just keep the constant guise of a male half-elf. :smalltongue:

TaintedLight
2008-01-20, 12:07 AM
Tobrian: It isn't that he forced me to become a changeling or female, nor is he trying to tell me how to play my character's personality, but I am being told that I should leave my old personality behind for the most part. I can play myself however I like, but he wants me to limit how much I am in denial.

Raistlin1040
2008-01-20, 12:18 AM
From a mechanical standpoint, you are a changeling. Your gender has nothing to do with it, and if you'd like to appear as a male half-elf, that's your choice.

If your DM wants you to roleplay your character as female, but you don't want to, say he's in denial. Personally, I'd probably grin if my character was turned into a female, because it opens up a huge range of possibilities for roleplaying. You could make the character straight from a mental standpoint, making him/her a lesbian, or choose to embrace the new body and go for men, making him/her pysically straight. I'd just make him/her bisexual, for added roleplaying fun due to being a changeling.

It's your character, and while good roleplayers should play their characters as the characters, not themselves, it's not your DMs choice about how you play your character.

TaintedLight
2008-01-20, 01:30 AM
Thanks for all of the suggestions about this, everyone. I think that I have decided on the path that my roleplaying will take barring any major plot twists. Most likely, I will come to accept that my shapechanging is really a gift of some kind, and that my new gender will not be an issue. Most of my time will be spent in the form of a male half elf I think, which helps to conceal my true identity. My real goal is the same as it has always been, once I come to see it again: I want to become a living legend, and to be revered by generations of ninja to come. In terms of sexuality, I never really decided to change my views about men and women from when I was a male half elf but it isn't a really important aspect of my life. My party members think that the transformation is strange, but have accepted it. One is a knight who is too chivalrous to try anything and the other is a monk who is slightly insane and abstinent. Most importantly, I don't let myself think of this as a handicap, because it really isn't.

Roderick_BR
2008-01-20, 02:22 AM
For an incredible coincidence, here's a webcomic with a similar theme: http://www.exiern.com/
Short synopis: Barbarian guy fights wizard. Wizard nerfs himself by accident, and tries an last spell to weaken the barbarian. His spell instead of turning the barbarian into something small and squishy, "only" turn female. But still a barbarian warrior. Hilarity ensues.
This character often has "female thoughts" and get angry at himself/herself, and at any possible source of said thoughts, and often punches people when angry. Just a simple take on it.

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-20, 02:24 AM
I had a Monk who kept changing genders due to plot. He was kind of ambiguous to begin with. Very unnerving character. Lots of fun.

Narmoth
2008-01-20, 05:05 AM
read this: http://www.misfile.com (http://www.misfile.com/?page=1)

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-20, 06:22 AM
Thanks for that link Narmoth. I love this.

Tobrian
2008-01-20, 07:40 PM
Tobrian: It isn't that he forced me to become a changeling or female, nor is he trying to tell me how to play my character's personality, but I am being told that I should leave my old personality behind for the most part. I can play myself however I like, but he wants me to limit how much I am in denial.

So he doesn't tell you how to play your character... except he totally does, only in negative terms: He tells you you should not play him as a male half-elf any longer.

I still think it's none of his damn business. :smallannoyed: He house-ruled by GM arbitrariness that reincarnation can change someone's gender, when the rules do not support that, he made the character female, now he wants... what? Force you to "roleplay it out"?

A GM once put a Ranma-like gender-change curse on one of my (male) Shadowrun characters (weird campaign with artifacts, don't ask). Or rather my streetpunk character had walked into the magical "trap" like an idiot (he had simply not believed the warning). I wasn't thrilled but tried to play along, since I thought, well, it's only temporary, right? But then the GM decided, without consulting me first if I was ok with it, that it had become permanent and the character was stuck as some sort of mystical insanely beautiful babe with silver hair. I don't know to this day what was up with that. Maybe he simple wanted to force me (female player) to play a female-looking character. Dunno. I started hating the character, and well, subconsciously I started opposing the GM's plots and NPCs as much as possible. The campaign broke down, due to this and other reasons, shortly thereafter.

I've witnessed other GMs try to force something on players, and I've been guilty of my own blunders once or twice, and I've learned the painful lesson: Never ever try to "rewrite" a character without the player's consent. Never ever try to run a character for the player. And never ever use the "PC is mind-controlled by NPC/evil artifact" plot unless you want to kill your campaign. It NEVER works. Trust me on this.


P.S. Just to add: I have nothing against the idea of a character who changes gender. I personally like to play shapeshifters. I've played in a lot of systems that are far darker and more R-rated than D&D. I've played characters with sexual neuroses or weird fetishes (cannibalism?) on occasion. (WoD Revenant,, KULT RPG, stuff like that. So it's not like it's I'm prudish. But I had at least two characters messed up by GMs who tried to impose their ideas on my characters. Like presenting my socially graceful character as a rude mouthbreathing klutz the first time the other PCs met him (despite my feeble protests to the contrary), and that was in a WoD Vampire game! :smallmad: It went downhill from there.

TaintedLight
2008-01-23, 10:57 PM
So I have finally decided what will happen with Kamasis.

She will finally realize that her old half elven self is now only one facet of a greater self which is capable of becoming much more than she originally thought possible. The race/gender change was not a curse, but a gift that has boosted her ninja abilities to a whole new level.

Solo
2008-01-23, 10:59 PM
The race/gender change was not a curse, but a gift that has boosted her ninja abilities to a whole new level.

In bed. :smallamused:

TaintedLight
2008-01-23, 11:03 PM
Well, that too if you like...:smallbiggrin:

Mewtarthio
2008-01-23, 11:32 PM
So he doesn't tell you how to play your character... except he totally does, only in negative terms: He tells you you should not play him as a male half-elf any longer.

To be fair to the DM, I read it less as "Impudent PC! You will play as I say and you will like it!" and more as "Eh, don't worry too much about psychological trauma; the spell naturally eases your transition to the new body."

TaintedLight
2008-01-23, 11:37 PM
Actually, he is more of the "Impudent PC" type, but my explanation about accepting the change as an enhancement of my abilities has satisfied him anyways.

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-24, 12:42 AM
Yeah, it really bothers me when the person running the game is telling people how to play their characters. Being a jerk is one thing, but telling people how to handle suddenly gender change? That's pretty unreasonable.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-24, 12:44 AM
Yeah, unless that DM runs a really good game, I suggest looking for another group. Roleplaying mental trauma should give you XP, not a talking-to. :smallmad:

TaintedLight
2008-01-24, 12:53 AM
I talked to my DM about how I felt that my right to control my character was being squashed, and he replied at first that I, as a PC, have no absolute control over anything. This of course is just an abraisive response that nobody wants to hear, so I told him that I felt that my persona and mentality were the only things that gave me a sense of connection to the character. He seems to have reconsidered his stance on the issue, so it's all looking pretty good for the time being.

Even if I did feel that leaving the group was a reasonable option, I live in a roleplaying wasteland... I haven't been able to locate a single other person who plays, let alone a group. :smallmad:

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-24, 12:54 AM
Anyhow, it's not like having a set of new hormones, some new plumbing, and slightly different brain chemistry guarantees you a new sexual identity.

There are a number of people who identify themselves as the opposite gender practically from birth without the need for magic whammies.

VanBuren
2008-01-24, 01:02 AM
I talked to my DM about how I felt that my right to control my character was being squashed, and he replied at first that I, as a PC, have no absolute control over anything. This of course is just an abraisive response that nobody wants to hear,

That's also not true. As the player, you have complete control over everything your character thinks, says and does when not under magical compulsion. When it comes down to it, the only thing the DM can do is either to penalize you IG for your character's actions ("if you're gonna murder, you're gonna get chased by the guard") or be asked not to play a certain type of character OOC ("could you not play a CE rogue? I think everyone's tired of resurrecting the mage")

But really, if the following is going on...

Player: "What? Look, I'm still a guy, alright? Nothing's changed except for, y'know my bod--"

DM: Stop.

Player: What?

DM: Your character wouldn't do that.

Player: Yes he would. That's how I designed him!

DM: Well, you were wrong. Plus I make arbitrary judgments on spell side-effects that have no supporting text in the rules. Sorry, but you can't play him the way you want. Let go. He doesn't even care about not being a man anymore.

Player: Why wouldn't he? It's a pretty traumatic shift...

DM: Look, it's powerful magic. And the way I ruled it, it changed his personality too.

I mean, if he's reconsidered then great. But really, he comes off sounding as an RP-Nazi. As in, he won't tell you how to play your character right, but he'll keep telling you whenever you're doing wrong until you get there.

Artanis
2008-01-24, 12:43 PM
I talked to my DM about how I felt that my right to control my character was being squashed, and he replied at first that I, as a PC, have no absolute control over anything. This of course is just an abraisive response that nobody wants to hear, so I told him that I felt that my persona and mentality were the only things that gave me a sense of connection to the character. He seems to have reconsidered his stance on the issue, so it's all looking pretty good for the time being.

Even if I did feel that leaving the group was a reasonable option, I live in a roleplaying wasteland... I haven't been able to locate a single other person who plays, let alone a group. :smallmad:
Step 1: Character commits suicide
Step 2: New character that is mechanically identical to the old one but with the personality YOU want it to have is rolled up and inserted into campaign in old character's place
Step 3: Profit!

Roderick_BR
2008-01-24, 01:24 PM
Tobrian: Your DM forced your character to act out-of-character (pun non intended), to force you to play a female character? That's lame.

TaintedLight: If you'll still play that character, as I said, try to keep the old personality more than ever, even if just to bother the DM. If he tries to give you a hard time, tell him that nowhere in the rules says that you need to change your personality, short of an magical alignment change.

Felizginato12
2008-01-24, 01:51 PM
Step 1: Character commits suicide
Step 2: New character that is mechanically identical to the old one but with the personality YOU want it to have is rolled up and inserted into campaign in old character's place
Step 3: Profit!

Step 1: Character commits suicide
Step 2: New character that is mechanically identical to the old one but with the personality YOU want it to have is rolled up and inserted into campaign in old character's place
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

Forgot a step.

I may not know if this affects anything but if you are reincarnated then you would be born into a different personality. I mean, reincarnation means that a new personality is developed during each life in the physical world.

Then again I guess that depends on the campaign and the deities present in said campaign. I've never played Eberron so I wouldn't know how it works but if you are talking about reincarnation in the traditional sense then you would be reincarnated and you would think as if you had been this way and nothing else.

This is speaking on a role-playing view of course. I don't know if there are any special rules on reincarnation and it would just depend on how the whole afterlife thing works in your campaign.

Also the DM can make whatever he wants so I guess it's just a toss up.

But in any case if your character is uncomfortable I guess she can change her vagina into a penis.

Don't know how that would turn out though...

lol have fun with that.

kamikasei
2008-01-24, 02:14 PM
I may not know if this affects anything but if you are reincarnated then you would be born into a different personality. I mean, reincarnation means that a new personality is developed during each life in the physical world.

Then again I guess that depends on the campaign and the deities present in said campaign. I've never played Eberron so I wouldn't know how it works but if you are talking about reincarnation in the traditional sense then you would be reincarnated and you would think as if you had been this way and nothing else.

This is speaking on a role-playing view of course. I don't know if there are any special rules on reincarnation and it would just depend on how the whole afterlife thing works in your campaign.

Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm). It's a spell. You retain your own mind and identity, but have a new body. Since you keep everything except your racial physical adjustments and abilities, there's no reason for your personality to change. It doesn't change (or isn't indicated to change) when you change race, and there's nothing there about changing gender, so why would it be different then?

As far as shapeshifting and gender, that's part of the problem, in that TaintedLight can actually take on the form and appearance, gender included, of her old character but the DM seems to be saying she still has to play herself as a female, and different.

Felizginato12
2008-01-24, 03:22 PM
Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm). It's a spell. You retain your own mind and identity, but have a new body. Since you keep everything except your racial physical adjustments and abilities, there's no reason for your personality to change. It doesn't change (or isn't indicated to change) when you change race, and there's nothing there about changing gender, so why would it be different then?

As far as shapeshifting and gender, that's part of the problem, in that TaintedLight can actually take on the form and appearance, gender included, of her old character but the DM seems to be saying she still has to play herself as a female, and different.

Apologies for my ignorance. Never really played a magic user or remembered playing with someone who used that spell.I knew I was missing something.

Well I guess that he would have to play a character like a female. I'm not entirely sure though. I mean on one side the changeling can only change outside appearances right? Well as far as chemicals in the body goes the person may still act like a woman or somewhat like a woman.

But then again you have to decide which actions are dictated by our own sex. I mean if he has all of the memories of his old life and can look like his old self then he may be able to act like a man to an extent.

I suppose it would be the same as a tranvestite. You can make yourself look just like a man and you can act as if you were a man but you are still just acting. So what i'm trying to say is that your character could probably still act like a man but there would be certain actions where your act sort of gives in to your true gender (which is now female).

So I guess you are just playing the role of the perfect tranvestite.

GRATZ!!! :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2008-01-24, 05:08 PM
This has probably been mentioned before, but the SRD doesn't even mention whether Reincarnate can/can't change a target's sex. Nor is changeling on there... is that something added by a new book, or was that houseruled?

Anyway, the DM's railroading the OP, this time by modifying the character itself rather than forcing an interaction with the environment... if the DM won't allow you keep the same personality, nor allow you to act the same way in spite of him, then leave. If you aren't allowed roleplay your character the way you want to roleplay him, then you aren't roleplaying your character. If he's no longer your character, but rather a puppet whose personality is defined by the DM, you're just in there to keep track of another plot-central NPC.

Furthermore, if the soul of the PC is its personality and mental capabilities, then it should be impossible for a reincarnation to affect those two things (notice that Bugbear is the best thing to be reincarnated as? +4 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, and no change to the character's mind. It's only a 1% chance on a fair d%, but awesome.) In fact, the mind is the only thing that's kept the same between the two characters, so if your DM forces a personality change when reincarnating, you aren't playing your old character at all, but instead a different character who you didn't get to create. Thus, you're playing an NPC again, and you are perfectly justified in leaving the game.

EDIT: I forgot something. Reincarnation is derived from Latin roughly meaning, "being made into the flesh again," and since the soul is what is being incarnated, and the soul carries the person's personality (traditionally), reincarnation is putting an old soul (and personality) into a new body. The person's personality is not directly affected, but may change in the same manner that not-reincarnated souls do.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-24, 05:28 PM
Sit down, OoC, and show your DM this thread. Or just talk to him, whichever works. It sounds like he's either bad, inexperienced, or pissed, and 2 of those should be fixable. (Bad is eternal, and will lead to therapy IC and OoC) think back, did you kill his Drizzt? Destroy his plot? Get a hold of an item that he didn't want PCs to touch? Date his girlfriend? He seems actively hunting you, so either he's bad or you pissed him off, and either way, getting to the core of the issue is your goal.

VanBuren
2008-01-24, 06:23 PM
Apologies for my ignorance. Never really played a magic user or remembered playing with someone who used that spell.I knew I was missing something.

Well I guess that he would have to play a character like a female. I'm not entirely sure though. I mean on one side the changeling can only change outside appearances right? Well as far as chemicals in the body goes the person may still act like a woman or somewhat like a woman.

But then again you have to decide which actions are dictated by our own sex. I mean if he has all of the memories of his old life and can look like his old self then he may be able to act like a man to an extent.

I suppose it would be the same as a tranvestite. You can make yourself look just like a man and you can act as if you were a man but you are still just acting. So what i'm trying to say is that your character could probably still act like a man but there would be certain actions where your act sort of gives in to your true gender (which is now female).

So I guess you are just playing the role of the perfect tranvestite.

GRATZ!!! :smallbiggrin:

A Changeling's transformation isn't mere disguise. It's actually changing it's physiology into something else.

MartinHarper
2008-01-24, 06:34 PM
I don't think female hormones on their own would bring about a major personality shift. Certainly that's not the typical experience of (ex-)males in the real world who take female hormones. Similarly, I've not heard of hormones leading to a change in sexual preference. At most you'd be looking at the same base personality with slightly different emotions. Unless he was particularly unhappy with his old body, I'd expect him to walk round looking like that most of the time.

So, how could a Reincarnation end up in the sort of personality shift that your DM is apparently very insistent that you roleplay? One possibility is that reincarnation has taken the ninja's half-elf soul and implanted it into a clean young female shapechanger brain. Shapechangers might have a very different brain structure to half elves. There could be more brain space dedicated to empathy and disguise, for example. Perhaps some aspects of the ninja's old personality had to be dropped due to insufficient space? Perhaps some aspects of the ninja's old personality will be able to grow now they have more space? There are also the personality-changing effects of dieing, never mind being reincarnated: consider people with near-death experiences, and the personality shifts they sometimes experience.

The other thing is that the Reincarnated have to be willing, per the rules. You might consider what made your ninja willing to take the risk of reincarnating as a shocker lizard.

Felizginato12
2008-01-26, 02:38 AM
A Changeling's transformation isn't mere disguise. It's actually changing it's physiology into something else.

I know that. That is why I called him the "prefect" tranvestite.

But I do agree that your situation would dictate that your character can mostly act as he did before. I was simply saying that the new gender might cause some differences (very slight ones) in personality. The most common would probably (as said) be that your character is confused and awkward in a female's body.

Again this is all a guess for me. I'm not sure exactly how much female hormones differ females from males. I know it is a slight difference...

However, I should have been more specific. I do support your claim that the DM can not just say what you character does when changed into a female changeling. The DM cannot say what your character does in response to any event (as long as you are playing within your character's personality).

For example, in one campaign my character glanced at a barmaid and looked her up and down. The barmaid then used some sort of magic to send some horrible fearfull feeling through my body. After which the DM said that I shuddered and turned away. I know it is a slight mistake on the DM's part to take over my character's actions but that supports the fact that I could have reacted any number of ways to that situation as long as I retained that same feared feeling (since it's magic).

So in a nutshell just tell the DM that you are playing your character as your character's personality dictates and that he (or she) can not tell you how your character feels.

VanBuren
2008-01-26, 07:53 PM
I know that. That is why I called him the "prefect" tranvestite.

Yeah, but...


I'm not entirely sure though. I mean on one side the changeling can only change outside appearances right? Well as far as chemicals in the body goes the person may still act like a woman or somewhat like a woman.

I'm pretty sure the Changeling changes the whole thing. Externally, internally. The whole physiology, not just part of it.

Tengu
2008-01-26, 09:14 PM
I can't help but think that your DM has some weird fetish (better not ask him directly about that, though). In many games I played characters were transformed, mind-controlled or lost some of their abilities, but not a single of those things was permanent without the player's consent.

Tobrian
2008-02-07, 02:41 PM
I'm pretty sure the Changeling changes the whole thing. Externally, internally. The whole physiology, not just part of it.
If I remember correctly, someone "upstream" in the thread mentioned that Changelings can change from one gender to another and even father children while male, then turn female and be impregnated and bear a child, they merely need to stay in that form as long as they're pregnant. Change down to the cellular level. That's one heck of an ability, even more powerful than what the Fey'ri have! (I need to find an Eberron group!) Makes sense, since Changelings have Doppelgänger blood.

But slightly OT, it also illustrates the differences between systems like i.e. GURPS and D&D: Under GURPS, such a shapechange ability would cost a LOT of points. Under D&D, it's basically a natural Alter Self (2nd level spell), not even worth a Level Adjustment because it doesn't make you more "powerful" killing monsters or crawling through dungeons. It's "fluff", a special effect, useful for espionage perhaps but the changeling might as well be a character wearing a Hat of Disguise. In any normal standard D&D campaign its ramifications are completely ignored.

kamikasei
2008-02-07, 03:18 PM
Well I guess that he would have to play a character like a female. I'm not entirely sure though. I mean on one side the changeling can only change outside appearances right? Well as far as chemicals in the body goes the person may still act like a woman or somewhat like a woman.

But then again you have to decide which actions are dictated by our own sex. I mean if he has all of the memories of his old life and can look like his old self then he may be able to act like a man to an extent.

I suppose it would be the same as a tranvestite. You can make yourself look just like a man and you can act as if you were a man but you are still just acting. So what i'm trying to say is that your character could probably still act like a man but there would be certain actions where your act sort of gives in to your true gender (which is now female).

But what is "playing like a female"? Reincarnation doesn't change your mental stats, so it's not as if you become as much a female as if you had been conceived, gestated, born, and raised as a female, with female biology shaping your mind and personality and female childhood and other life experiences weighing in on the nurture side. You're just a guy's mind/soul/whatever in a female body that can become a male body on a whim. There's really no reason for your personality to become more "female".

MartinHarper's comment about the real-world experiences of adult males taking female hormones is very useful and interesting in this connection because it really is the closest analogue. You have none of the formative influences that a born female has had. You just suddenly have a different chemical environment in your head. Presumably the magic of the spell smooths over the transition a bit and you don't actually feel like someone has surgically swapped around a few of your organs while you slept, but that's not going to make you more girlish, just let you avoid screaming in body-horror agony for a few straight days.

There are ways in which being gender-swapped would realistically affect any character. For example, women's hips and knees are slightly differently constructed to men's. Muscle and fat are distributed differently. All this would make your habitual, comfortable behaviours feel different: you might fall into a different walk and manner of holding yourself, say. This might then have a knock-on effect on your attitude and emotions. This is the sort of personality change that would accompany reincarnation in a stronger, or weaker, or more dextrous, or clumsier, race. There's no reason it would be more pronounced for a change to female. Self-image may be more drastically altered. ...But then, virtually all of these points are rendered basically irrelevant by the fact that the character has lucked out and can just walk around in his old body, perfectly recreated, all the time.

In short, I don't think it's a matter of "acting like a man". The OP still is his old self, he just has a new set of physical attributes that he has to get used to. Being more specific than that would require entangling nature and nurture from moment-to-moment biology in their influences on the differences between men and women, and not a single one of those four things is well-defined enough.

Tobrian
2008-02-07, 03:49 PM
But then again you have to decide which actions are dictated by our own sex. I mean if he has all of the memories of his old life and can look like his old self then he may be able to act like a man to an extent.

I'm a biologist, I could write whole essays about the complex interplay of genes, hormones, and cultural self-image. :smallbiggrin: But we have to keep in mind that we're talking about a magical world, and a nonhuman race. The ol' nature-vs-nurture debate (in which "nature" is currently winnning, despite the fact that this pisses off the behaviorists) does not apply, need not apply, to such a world.

Finally, this is a game, and we're gaming to have fun. D&D is not World of Darkness or KULT RPG where players are encouraged to explore their characters' tortured psyche. :smallwink: (disclaimer: I like WoD and KULT, I use GURPS a lot, my first RPG was Warhammer.
But D&D isn't geared towards such style of play.)


I suppose it would be the same as a tranvestite. You can make yourself look just like a man and you can act as if you were a man but you are still just acting. So what i'm trying to say is that your character could probably still act like a man but there would be certain actions where your act sort of gives in to your true gender (which is now female).
So I guess you are just playing the role of the perfect tranvestite.


Please don't confuse "transvestite" with "transsexual". I know a lot of people do that, but... it just irks me. Sorry. Just like the common prejudice that transvestite men who dress as women are homosexual (they aren't.). What is "true gender"? Society is still wrestling with that question. Trust me, telling a transsexual that his or her "true gender" is the one (s)he was born with is a surefire way to offend.



Anyway, the DM's railroading the OP, this time by modifying the character itself rather than forcing an interaction with the environment... if the DM won't allow you keep the same personality, nor allow you to act the same way in spite of him, then leave. If you aren't allowed roleplay your character the way you want to roleplay him, then you aren't roleplaying your character. If he's no longer your character, but rather a puppet whose personality is defined by the DM, you're just in there to keep track of another plot-central NPC.
Amen.

Thankfully D&D rules treat male and female characters as equal. Really, if you were a wizard meeting a man-hating female barbarian with STR 22, would you want her to be PMSing? :smallwink: (Hey, I'm born female, I'm allowed to make these jokes.)


In short, I don't think it's a matter of "acting like a man". The OP still is his old self, he just has a new set of physical attributes that he has to get used to.
Yep. If a dwarf character were magically changed into an elf, or a troll... while keeping his memories... would everyone go around telling the player, "Your dwarf now has to act like an elf"? What does that even mean? They're fictional races. But with gender, everyone seems to have an opinion, even if the character in question is not even human. *shrug*