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Malachite
2008-01-20, 09:53 AM
Hi guys,

I'm writing up a campaign setting that'll be a bit unusual in that it will have no orcs or goblins. Instead, the focus is going to be more on Gnolls, Kobolds and some centauroid creatures. However, this screws up the half-orc, leaving potential players with no strength race.
Since there's a distinct Draconic focus to the the world I thought about doing a Dragonblood race/template. How balanced do you think the following would be?


Dragonblood:
These creatures have draconic blood somewhere in their lineage. Though not as powerful as the more closely related half-dragons, they still possess some of the qualities of the distant ancestor. Generally stronger than other civilised humanoids, they tend to rely on this more than is perhaps wise. Their draconic blood often guides them to sorcery, though their power makes them formidable fighters.

+2 Strength, –2 Wisdom

Medium: As Medium creatures, Dragonblood have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

A Dragonblood's base land speed is 30 feet.

Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects.

Energy resistance 5 vs energy type as follows:
Dragon Variety Resistance
Black/Green/Copper Acid
Blue/Bronze Electricity
Red/Gold/Brass Fire
White/Silver Cold

Darkvision: Dragonblood can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and Dragonblood can function just fine with no light at all.

Draconic Blood: For all effects related to race, a Dragonblood is considered a humanoid (reptilian).

Automatic Languages: (local), Tradespeak. Bonus Languages: Underdraconic, High Draconic, Giant, Gnoll.

Favored Class: Sorceror. A multiclass Dragonblood’s sorceror class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.


I'd quite like to make Dragonblood into a template, but I think it may perhaps be too complicated to balance all the abilities of the basic race with the template without straying into the level adjustment area.

To explain the favoured class being sorceror, I fully expect this race to be used as a melee one by PCs. However, based on background it seemed appropriate. Besides, gnomes tend to be illusionist wizards rather than bards, elves make marginally under-par wizards due to the impact of the Con penalty on their Concentration checks, and any kobolds with class levels are much more likely to be rogues than sorcerors. :smallwink:

SensFan
2008-01-20, 10:33 AM
Aren't dragons supposed to have senses that are MUCH better than the average human? I don't like the Wis penalty...Maybe a Dex penalty? That would fit, being a dragon's worst stat, and would have this being the "bulky fighter" race, to contrast the elven "finesse fighter".

Malachite
2008-01-20, 10:55 AM
That could work, yeah. Would it be too much to add on a point or two of natural armour to explain a dexterity penalty?

brian c
2008-01-20, 01:53 PM
That could work, yeah. Would it be too much to add on a point or two of natural armour to explain a dexterity penalty?

It would make sense, but +2 natural armor would generally need an LA; +1 you can get away with.

Malachite
2008-01-20, 02:12 PM
Cheers guys, the race is now as follows:


Dragonblood:
These creatures have draconic blood somewhere in their lineage. Though not as powerful as the more closely related half-dragons, they still possess some of the qualities of the distant ancestor. Generally stronger than other civilised humanoids, they tend to rely on this more than is perhaps wise. Their draconic blood often guides them to sorcery, though their power makes them formidable fighters.

+2 Strength, –2 Dexterity

+1 Natural Armour

Medium: As Medium creatures, Dragonblood have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

A Dragonblood's base land speed is 30 feet.

Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects.

Energy resistance 5 vs energy type as follows:
Dragon Variety Resistance
Black/Green/Copper Acid
Blue/Bronze Electricity
Red/Gold/Brass Fire
White/Silver Cold

Darkvision: Dragonblood can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and Dragonblood can function just fine with no light at all.

Draconic Blood: For all effects related to race, a Dragonblood is considered a humanoid (reptilian).

Automatic Languages: (local), Tradespeak. Bonus Languages: Underdraconic, High Draconic, Giant, Gnoll.

Favored Class: Sorceror. A multiclass Dragonblood’s sorceror class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-20, 07:45 PM
Edit your post at the top. Then the first thing people see will be the current version.

Nostri
2008-01-20, 08:47 PM
By RAW the race as statted out is at least LA +1 if not a low +2. Natural armor and a bonus to strength makes for a fairly powerful character. The energy resistance on top of that is a lot power-wise for a PC.

Yakk
2008-01-20, 09:49 PM
Alternative crunch:

Attributes: +2 Str -2 Dex

Scales: DR 1/-

Draconic Will: Immune to Charm, Suggestion and Dominate effects.

Draconic Blood: For all effects related to race, a Dragonblood is considered a humanoid (reptilian).

Automatic Languages: (local), Tradespeak.
Bonus Languages: Underdraconic, High Draconic, Giant, Gnoll.

Favored Class: Sorceror.

Note: No vision. No energy resistance. DR 1/- is nice, but not nearly as nice as a point of natural armor (really) and energy resistance 5.

The immunity is shifted from the standard elven one to a different set of spells.

WillWolf
2008-01-21, 06:58 AM
I don't think that the -2 to wisdom is balanced to all of the additions given here. Particularly since darkvision really is a handy ability and then combined with damage reduction to fire or cold (very common damages) it becomes too unbalanced. And there is no way that you can make a natural armor bonus without severe penalities.

Also I don't think that the fluff matches the crunch. Dragons are powerful, powerful beings, but what really is dangerous is their high intelligence and magical abilities. A +2 strength, darkvision, and an immunity to sleep effects seems like the wrong attributes that a child would attain from their parentage.

Truthfully it sounds like you just added some cool/useful stuff together and decided to call it a dragon.

This is definitely a +1 maybe even a +2 LA.

And you completely stole both the half-orc's pride. Give back his pride. And I don't think the elf is particularly happy either.

Yak: it's considered bad form to hijack someone else's thread unless he was like asking for someone to make what he asked. >__> That being said I do like yours better, though again damage reduction is still a useful ability and a penalty to dexterity just doesn't count it. Mind you that could be fixed by adding one more penalty of some kind or another, maybe even making it damage reduction something or another.

Danu
2008-01-21, 09:35 PM
Malachite: If you have access to Races of the Dragon you could simply use the dragonborn of Bahamut 'template' and apply that to the half-orc. Basically, it would be +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha... then all the various dragonborn racial abilities.

Just change the history of this race to match your current game world. ^_^

Yakk
2008-01-22, 01:10 PM
Another idea would be to farm out some of the features as racial feats that can be taken (either only at first level, or at any level to represent developing heritage) to keep the race a LA+0.

Malachite
2008-01-29, 01:35 PM
Also I don't think that the fluff matches the crunch. Dragons are powerful, powerful beings, but what really is dangerous is their high intelligence and magical abilities. A +2 strength, darkvision, and an immunity to sleep effects seems like the wrong attributes that a child would attain from their parentage.

Truthfully it sounds like you just added some cool/useful stuff together and decided to call it a dragon.
...
And you completely stole both the half-orc's pride.


campaign setting that'll be a bit unusual in that it will have no orcs or goblins. Instead, the focus is going to be more on Gnolls, Kobolds and some centauroid creatures. However, this screws up the half-orc, leaving potential players with no strength race.

*rolls eyes*

Basically, I needed an LA+0 race with a strength bonus, and with dragons playing a large part of my world I thought they might work well as an ancestor. The half-dragon template is mainly strength-focused after all. Any other abilities stemmed from that rather than the other way around.

Yakk's idea is a good one, though I think I'll add on at least low-light vision. Compared to dwarves, I don't think this race is particularly over-powered.

Danu: I don't have Races of the Dragon, but I know someone who does. The only problem I see with that template is that it applies a penalty to charisma, making it rather unsuited to becoming a sorceror.

Altharis
2008-01-30, 12:34 AM
*rolls eyes*

Basically, I needed an LA+0 race with a strength bonus, and with dragons playing a large part of my world I thought they might work well as an ancestor. The half-dragon template is mainly strength-focused after all. Any other abilities stemmed from that rather than the other way around.

Yakk's idea is a good one, though I think I'll add on at least low-light vision. Compared to dwarves, I don't think this race is particularly over-powered.

Danu: I don't have Races of the Dragon, but I know someone who does. The only problem I see with that template is that it applies a penalty to charisma, making it rather unsuited to becoming a sorceror.

*rolls eyes at you*

I think, my good man with a good homebrew plan, that you have misunderstood his point. He's not telling you to put draconic half-orcs in your campaign, he's telling you to call them some else all together. I mean, all the "half-orc" is is a collection of numbers. You can call them whatever you like. I could call the "Dragonborn Half-Orc of Bahamut" a "Dragonblood" or even a "Fwangle-Snurzle". He's telling you to get the numbers from one thing and give them a new name.

For truth and clarity!
Altharis

Malachite
2008-01-30, 08:30 PM
I suppose he could have meant that. We obviously read it differently.

However, apart from the fact that half-orcs are generally seen as sub-par for a race, I don't think it really fits as a draconic-blooded person. Dragons have quite high stats in all areas but dexterity and half-dragons (which would be a more closely related ancestor) gain a bonus to both intelligence and charisma as well as the expected strength and constitution, suggesting that a penalty to these two would be inappropriate.

With Dexterity being a dragon's weakest stat, a penalty here seems better, but I'm still thinking the wisdom penalty might suit them too. Would a -2 Wisdom be balanced with 5 [relevant energy type] resistance? Bear in mind that could be reducing an already low Will save.

Yakk
2008-01-31, 12:05 AM
+2 Str -2 Dex
Immune to Sleep effects
1 bonus feat

Racial Feats: (can be purchased at any level)
Scales: DR 2/-

Energy Resistance: 5 (depending on heritage)

Darkvision

Draconic Magic: (Charisma based, caster level = character level/3, rounded up)
1: 3/2 cast/known cantrips
2: 3/2 cast/known cantrips, 1/1 cast/known first level spells
3+: as sorcerer 1/3 character level

...

The base character is very human-esque. Instead of the skill point, you get access to some neat feats and the sleep immunity (or some other minor perk).