Water + Electricity?

[Brett Wong]

Are there any special effects that occur when you cast an electrical spell such as Lightning Bolt in the water?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I don't think there are any official rulings on the matter, but DM's can houserule it easy.

[its_all_ogre]

read lightning bolt spell description. does it say there is anything special?
then there isn't.
wasn't that easy?:smallbiggrin:

[bosssmiley]

I'm 90% sure that previous editions ruled that casting lightning bolt underwater turned it from a line AoE into what we would now term either a burst or a cone AoE. Not sure if there's anything official that updates that to 3rd Ed though.

[kieza]

I generally let my players target the water, and the attack does its damage in a small radius around the impact point. They rapidly learn, however, that it doesn't work so well if they're just firing blind because the enemy is hiding underwater. As I see it, the increased utility of electricity spells is a counter for the uselessness of fire around water.

[Chronos]

I'm 90% sure that previous editions ruled that casting lightning bolt underwater turned it from a line AoE into what we would now term either a burst or a cone AoE. Not sure if there's anything official that updates that to 3rd Ed though.Second edition DMG, page 79:
Spells are also affected by the underwater world. Not surprisingly, fire-based spells have no effect unless cast in an area of free oxygen (such as a domed city).

Electrical spells conduct their energy into the surrounding water. Thus, a lightning bolt originating 60' away from the caster acts like a fireball at the point of origin.(note that, in the 2nd edition rules as written, a lightning bolt could originate anywhere the caster felt like, within range. But almost everyone played with it originating at the caster's fingertips, so that's what they officially made it do in 3rd.)

This doesn't say anything about what other electrical spell would do, such as Shocking Grasp. I suspect that most 2nd edition DMs would have said that Shocking Grasp underwater acts like Burning Hands, and that Chain Lightning also acts like a fireball, but with better damage.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, early editions a lightning bolt underwater was like a fireball centered on yourself. At least, to my knowledge. You get some fun stuff underwater...

Actually, I think in first edition fireball worked underwater, by making a spherical patch of boiling water/steam for a second.

Now targeting water is an awesome idea. Gives me Bioshock flashbacks...

[Ashtar]

In previous editions, lightning bolts could also be reflected on walls and other objects, too. Which made for some interesting calculations during combat. This is sadly no longer the case.

In second ed, we had questions like this: "Can I bounce the lightning bolt down the shaft of the well from a position 20' from the rim, so that it hits the water at the bottom where the body of this tentacled creature is?"

[LCR]

In previous editions, lightning bolts could also be reflected on walls and other objects, too. Which made for some interesting calculations during combat. This is sadly no longer the case.

In second ed, we had questions like this: "Can I bounce the lightning bolt down the shaft of the well from a position 20' from the rim, so that it hits the water at the bottom where the body of this tentacled creature is?"

This is the one reason I never used "Lightning Bolt" in Baldurs Gate. It kept killing my own team.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

My first response to queries like this is usually: So you don't think it's strange that a person can create a flow of electricity out of nowhere, but it does bug you that the electricity doesn't behave as it should afterwards?
As far as I'm concerned, the answer in both cases is simple: it's magic, it just works that way.

Another point is, how well does water conduct electricity anyway? Well not the water itself of course, water doesn't conduct at all, but the ions in water, how well do they conduct electricity? It depends on the concentration of the ions, but in generally my guess would be not very well, better then air, sure, but with spells like shocking grasp I don't think there should be a lot of differences.

[Swooper]

Ahh, I remember The Complete Wizard's Handbook had a whole chapter about how certain spells changed when used underwater. Always seemed pretty redundant, since really, how many of you have been in a situation where it mattered?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My character died Saturday night because were-sharks don't qualify as land animals. About a dozen spells would have been able to save me if we had been on land. I would say this is a very relevant discussion.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'd rule that the lightning bolt's energy "fizzles" quite a bit, changing the damge by a few dice (as in, from Xd6 to Xd3, dropping straight past d4) and spreads as a cone to the end of its line, becoming flat at the surface in the case of wierd angles.

But thats me being a jerk and subverting the water+electricty formula people have mashed into their heads by TV.


My character died Saturday night because were-sharks don't qualify as land animals. About a dozen spells would have been able to save me if we had been on land. I would say this is a very relevant discussion.

I don't see how it would matter unless the PCs were in an aquatic enviroment, in which case, the monster doesn't really matter much. A were-shark in human form on land would get its six handed to it the same normal twelve ways from sunday.
Its should be the enviroment, and not the monster which takes precedence tin discussions such as this.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

All I was saying is that underwater campaigns actually do happen, and having RAW examples is a good thing for helping the people who read here. If you have half your spell list invalidated, you generally prepare different things.

(we spent the entire session looking for the lost orb of plot in an underwater city, and I could have accomplished it in about 3 minutes if a certain spell had worked underwater)

[Kurald Galain]

So you don't think it's strange that a person can create a flow of electricity out of nowhere, but it does bug you that the electricity doesn't behave as it should afterwards?

Yes. It's called verisimilitude, and forms the difference between coherent and consistent writing, and ad hoc plot devices whenever convenient.

[Enguhl]

Unfortunately, electricity does not travel well through water alone, so if using the above-mentioned DMG2 ruling, I would say 10' radius.

[Sleet]

This sort of situation is when I get out my happy face/sad face die. I roll it in front of the player - happy face, things work out in his favor. Sad face, they work out to his detriment.

[Snadgeros]

Okay, I'm gonna go kill some catgirls now.

The water would have to be salt water, or have some form of solute in it. Fresh water is a horrible conductor of electricity, so you can't cast summon water, dump it on an enemy, and then lightning bolt him. Electricity only flows so easily through salt water because the metals in it have free-flowing electrons, shared by all the nuclei, allowing for electricity to travel very fast and very far.

Now can we get a body count on these feline females?

[Chronos]

The water would have to be salt water, or have some form of solute in it. Fresh water is a horrible conductor of electricity, so you can't cast summon water, dump it on an enemy, and then lightning bolt him. Electricity only flows so easily through salt water because the metals in it have free-flowing electrons, shared by all the nuclei, allowing for electricity to travel very fast and very far.Let me coup-de-grace those nekos for you; you only stunned them slightly. First, while it's true that pure water is a lousy conductor, you've probably never seen water that pure unless you work in a laboratory. A natural lake with dirt on the bottom and air on the top and fish pooping in it has all sorts of things dissolved in it, and even expensive bottled drinking water still has some ions.

Second, the way in which water conducts electricity is not the same as the way in which a metal conducts electricity. While most salts do contain atoms of metallic elements, while they're dissolved in the water, they're not metal. The electrons will remain firmly attached to ions, and the ions as a whole (both positive and negative) will flow through the water.

[Voyager_I]

My first response to queries like this is usually: So you don't think it's strange that a person can create a flow of electricity out of nowhere, but it does bug you that the electricity doesn't behave as it should afterwards?
As far as I'm concerned, the answer in both cases is simple: it's magic, it just works that way.


Suspension of disbelief does not work that way! I don't want reality, but I want a world that maintains the illusion of being so. I'll accept that magic exists and wizards can shoot fireballs, but I expect those fireballs to behave in a realistic manner.

Tacking on to what Kurald said, the ability to make an internally consistent and believable word is what makes Isaac Asimov a legendary author and J.K. Rowling an accomplished storyteller.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Let me coup-de-grace those nekos for you; you only stunned them slightly. First, while it's true that pure water is a lousy conductor, you've probably never seen water that pure unless you work in a laboratory. A natural lake with dirt on the bottom and air on the top and fish pooping in it has all sorts of things dissolved in it, and even expensive bottled drinking water still has some ions.


Really, I've always lived under the assumption that charged ions were left behind if you boil the water and the condense it, a process also know as distillation.
Create water creates clean rainwater, as rain must have been gas in order to get up in sky, it must have been ion free.
Also "water that pure" isn't to hard to find either, at my (foreign equivalent of) high school we used plenty of it.

[Voyager_I]

My first response to queries like this is usually: So you don't think it's strange that a person can create a flow of electricity out of nowhere, but it does bug you that the electricity doesn't behave as it should afterwards?
As far as I'm concerned, the answer in both cases is simple: it's magic, it just works that way.


Suspension of disbelief does not work that way! I don't want reality, but I want a world that maintains the illusion of being so. I'll accept that magic exists and wizards can shoot fireballs, but I expect those fireballs to behave in a realistic manner.

Tacking on to what Kurald said, the ability to make an internally consistent and believable word is what makes Isaac Asimov a legendary author while J.K. Rowling is merely an accomplished storyteller.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Suspension of disbelief does not work that way! I don't want reality, but I want a world that maintains the illusion of being so. I'll accept that magic exists and wizards can shoot fireballs, but I expect those fireballs to behave in a realistic manner.

Tacking on to what Kurald said, the ability to make an internally consistent and believable word is what makes Isaac Asimov a legendary author and J.K. Rowling an accomplished storyteller.

Right, first, do you even know how electricity is supposed to behave? I know nature always takes the path which takes the least energy, but it ends about there, predicting effect of unrealistic action with science can be very difficult, so if you're going to rule it arbitrarily in some way, you might as well keep things simple.
Second fire doesn't behave in a realistic manner as far as I know, how many clothes, forests, whatevers have you seen that burned realistically from magical fire?
Third, I had an awesome third point, but I forgot what it was, I'll edit my post if I remember it.

[Jayabalard]

Really, I always live under the assumption that charged ions were left behind if you boil the water and the condense it, a process also know as distillation.
Create water creates clean rainwater, as rain must have been gas in order to get up in sky, it must have been ion free.
Also "water that pure" isn't to hard to find either, at my (foreign equivalent of) high school we used plenty of it.Rainwater has a fair amount of particulate matter in it. Raindrops are formed by water vapor condensing around various types of particles.

The distilled water that you used in your high school science classes is not pure enough to be non-conducting, unless you went to a very abnormal school.

Steam itself can carry particulate matter when it evaporates; it does leaves behind some of it, which is why you can distill water and make it purer, but it does not leave behind all of the particles.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Rainwater has a fair amount of particulate matter in it. Raindrops are formed by water vapor condensing around various types of particles.

Quite probably true, I just doubt that there are metal ions high up in the sky.



The distilled water that you used in your high school science classes is not pure enough to be non-conducting, unless you went to a very abnormal school.

The type of water used does differ per location, I think we used water "cleansed" by use of ion exchange, I'm not 100% sure and I never tried it, but I think it should be free of conducting ions.



Steam itself can carry particulate matter when it evaporates; it does leaves behind some of it, which is why you can distill water and make it purer, but it does not leave behind all of the particles.
Also true, but if I'm not mistaking that mostly happens to organic substances. e.g. if you mix acetic acid with water and then distil it, there will still a lot of acetic acid left, but any metal ions such as Na+ will not have been carried along.

Edit: well maybe not just organic substances, but at least non-metal substances.

[Chronos]

Really, I always live under the assumption that charged ions were left behind if you boil the water and the condense it, a process also know as distillation.
Create water creates clean rainwater, as rain must have been gas in order to get up in sky, it must have been ion free.Sure, but how clean is your condensing apparatus? There's probably something to dissolve there. And in the air, for that matter. In fact, raindrops form by condensing around specks of dust in the air. Yes, rainwater is very pure, but it doesn't take very much impurity (which does not need to be metal) for water to become a half-decent conductor.

And you may well have had access to deionized water in your high school science labs, but I'll bet they weren't serving it in the cafeteria. That's why I said you probably wouldn't encounter it outside of a lab.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Sure, but how clean is your condensing apparatus? There's probably something to dissolve there. And in the air, for that matter. In fact, raindrops form by condensing around specks of dust in the air. Yes, rainwater is very pure, but it doesn't take very much impurity (which does not need to be metal) for water to become a half-decent conductor.

And you may well have had access to deionized water in your high school science labs, but I'll bet they weren't serving it in the cafeteria. That's why I said you probably wouldn't encounter it outside of a lab.

Enlighten me then, what solution that does not contain metal makes a half-decent conductor?

And no, it would be a bad idea to serve it in cafeteria as it is tasteless and the salts in water is actually considered healthy, it's also relatively expensive compared to "normal" water. I get were you're coming from BTW.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you want to bring real-world physics into it, trying to hit someone with a lightning bolt while they're submerged in a conducting material would be useless if the material was large (like, say, a river or lake). The electricity would flow everywhere, and might not even touch them.

[Suzuro]

Now, I may be a bit rusty on my chemistry, but if I remember correctly, Graphite and some forms of Carbon conduct fairly well, and those are non-metals...




-Suzuro

[Felius]

Enlighten me then, what solution that does not contain metal makes a half-decent conductor?


For start, any acids or bases. As they dissociate, they form ions. A very simple example, is for example a solution of HCl on water. It has no metalic Ions, but still does have Ions, and therefore, is a pretty good conductor.

[Collin152]

Isn't the metallic dragon that breathes a line of lightning one of the Aquatic ones?
Seems mildly relevant.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Now, I may be a bit rusty on my chemistry, but if I remember correctly, Graphite and some forms of Carbon conduct fairly well, and those are non-metals...




-Suzuro
Quite right, but those are in their solid form, not in their soluted(is that a word?) form.


For start, any acids or bases. As they dissociate, they form ions. A very simple example, is for example a solution of HCl on water. It has no metalic Ions, but still does have Ions, and therefore, is a pretty good conductor.
Yes, I suppose H+ could do it, I'm not sure how well that would work however, I always assumed it to be a poor conductor because although there is always some H+ and OH- there isn't really a lot of it in "normal" water.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yeah, early editions a lightning bolt underwater was like a fireball centered on yourself. At least, to my knowledge. You get some fun stuff underwater...

Actually, I think in first edition fireball worked underwater, by making a spherical patch of boiling water/steam for a second.

Now targeting water is an awesome idea. Gives me Bioshock flashbacks...

Nah, just use burning hands to kill them SPLOICERS. :smallbiggrin:

[Felius]

Quite right, but those are in their solid form, not in their soluted(is that a word?) form.


Yes, I suppose H+ could do it, I'm not sure how well that would work however, I always assumed it to be a poor conductor because although there is always some H+ and OH- there isn't really a lot of it in "normal" water.

Depends on the concentration. While it's true that there is both H+ and OH- at completely pure water (self-dissociation), it's concentration is 1E-7 mol/L for each. If, you put, say, enough HCL to push the H+ concentration to 1E-5 or 1E-4, what while still a weak to an acid, will conduct MUCH better then the 1E-7 concentration. If you push it to 1E-1, which is a concentration that still very safe to work with, it will conduct much better. I believe I have learned the to calculate the conductivity a couple semesters ago, but I don't really remember it right now.

Edit: Oops, fixed the notation.

[Prometheus]

Voyager_I had it right when it was said that since the mechanics of the supernatural can't be articulated, neither can the interaction between the supernatural and the natural. When it comes up, the answer is either random or arbitrary (DM dice or DM fiat).

Take the following example: Animals don't scale. This is why elephants are fat and ants can exhibit superstrength. A giant flying dinosaur (a dragon) could never fly naturally so fast and so well, even if we let it be supernaturally strong (that matches its strength score). Dragon's don't drop from the sky when they pass through an antimagic field.

I know many people try to come up with an "official" answer, that would satisfy any player that might cry foul, but they have to recognize that the world the characters play in isn't based on that, its based on the DM's rules.

Whatever my decision is, I'd allow a Knowledge (arcana) check for the character to know the consequences before testing it out, and/or a Spellcraft check to overcome the obstacles or use it to their advantage.

[Felius]

Look, if you rule that water change the behavior of the lighting bolt or any other lightning spell, you will also have to rule that anyone fully enclosed in metal (like, say a full plate) would be completely immune to any electric damage, as it will work as a Faraday cage.

[Chronos]

Psst, Felius, I think you mean 1E-7 there (and 1s in place of the 10s in the other figures as well). 10E-7 means "ten times ten to the minus seven power", or "ten to the minus six".

[Talic]

Wow. I think I've found where the Catgirl genociders are.

That said, it's open for ruling. There are rules for casting spells that break the surface of water (not sure exactly, but I do know that the surface blocks LoE for fire spells, and fire spells underwater now create steam instead of fizzling).

[hewhosaysfish]

Part of the function of the spell lightning bolt is to cause said bolt to travel in a straight line for 120' rather than just earthing itself in the ground at the wizards feet.
Assuming normal rules of physics apply is fine, but only where they are not being explicitly overruled by the presence of magic.
Here, we have to apply the rules of magic, not science, and they are:



Attacks from Land

Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

Emphasis mine.

[Jayabalard]

Quite probably true, I just doubt that there are metal ions high up in the sky.many of the things that get dissolved, metallic or not, cause the rain to become acidic (perhaps basic too, but I'm less sure on that). That means that there are free ions in the mixture. It's not the metals that make water conducting, it's the fact that you have ions.

If nothing else, rainwater is slightly acidic due to the carbon in the atmosphere; the average ph is 6 or so. If you have wood/peat burning civilizations, it will be even more acidic, and in an industrial societythe PH can be as low as 3 (which is VERY acidic).


The type of water used does differ per location, I think we used water "cleansed" by use of ion exchange, I'm not 100% sure and I never tried it, but I think it should be free of conducting ions.Nope, definitively not free; I'll believe "pure enough to do experiments and ignore the effect of pollutants for the classes experiment", or "very pure" just not "completely pure".


Also true, but if I'm not mistaking that mostly happens to organic substances. e.g. if you mix acetic acid with water and then distil it, there will still a lot of acetic acid left, but any metal ions such as Na+ will not have been carried along.If you've ever been to a clean beach (one with not alot of garbage in the water) you might have noticed the distinctive smell of the ocean; that's caused by the salt that is being carried in the water vapor. If you live by the coast, your car is MUCH more likely to have issues with rust due to the salt that is being carried in the water vapor.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

many of the things that get dissolved, metallic or not, cause the rain to become acidic (perhaps basic too, but I'm less sure on that). That means that there are free ions in the mixture. It's not the metals that make water conducting, it's the fact that you have ions.


The reason I thought metal was required was that you needed metal ions as positive ions, I "forgot" about the sneaky H+.



If nothing else, rainwater is slightly acidic due to the carbon in the atmosphere; the average ph is 6 or so. If you have wood/peat burning civilizations, it will be even more acidic, and in an industrial societythe PH can be as low as 3 (which is VERY acidic).


I know rainwater can be acidic, I know carbon dioxide(which is what you meant right?) is acidic, pH 3 is high for rain, but I'll take your word for it.



Nope, definitively not free; I'll believe "pure enough to do experiments and ignore the effect of pollutants for the classes experiment", or "very pure" just not "completely pure".

If you've ever been to a clean beach (one with not alot of garbage in the water) you might have noticed the distinctive smell of the ocean; that's caused by the salt that is being carried in the water vapor. If you live by the coast, your car is MUCH more likely to have issues with rust due to the salt that is being carried in the water vapor.

Well if you count OH- and H+ then water can never be pure, there is always a little of both present.
All I can say about the rest is: if you say so.

Edit: a quick google got me this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16928653/) on the smell of the sea, the rust could be explained by a Relative higher humidity near the sea. thoughts?


Edit2: Felius, correct of course, I just happen to not care much about silly little details such as that, I think the intentions of my comment were clear enough.

[Felius]

Well if you count OH- and H+ then water can never be pure, there is always a little of both present.
All I can say about the rest is: if you say so.

Actually it's not just the self-dissociation. It's very hard (read: impossible) to have completely pure water. You will always end with some kind of contaminant. What you seek when you purify it, is to make this contaminant be in such low amounts, that it can be ignored.

And, Chronos, thanks, notation fixed. :smalleek:

Edit: BTW: DIE CATGIRLS, DIE!!!

[Chronos]

The reason I thought metal was required was that you needed metal ions as positive ions, I "forgot" about the sneaky H+.There are a few other possibilities as well: Ammonium (NH4+) comes to mind.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

There are a few other possibilities as well: Ammonium (NH4+) comes to mind.

which is basicly 4 H+ attached to N3-, so it's still the H+ which gives the actual effect.

[Blue Paladin]

Isn't the metallic dragon that breathes a line of lightning one of the Aquatic ones?
Seems mildly relevant.Bronze. Very relevant.

Black too... how well does acid flow in a straight Line underwater?

Greens can also breathe underwater... how's that Cone of acid gas?

Golds have a fire Cone that explicitly works (superheated steam instead of fire), and a gas Cone that implicitly works (no explanation at all). It's like a weakening burp... sapping my strength...

[Mc. Lovin']

Now, I may be a bit rusty on my chemistry, but if I remember correctly, Graphite and some forms of Carbon conduct fairly well, and those are non-metals...

I think in the case of Graphite it's can conduct electricity, not does it well. (the only one in its group that can)

[Fhaolan]

And you may well have had access to deionized water in your high school science labs, but I'll bet they weren't serving it in the cafeteria. That's why I said you probably wouldn't encounter it outside of a lab.

If anyone is in a school that is serving deionized water in the cafeteria, run. Run like the wind. Drinking a glass of that will strip the enamel off your teeth.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

If anyone is in a school that is serving deionized water in the cafeteria, run. Run like the wind. Drinking a glass of that will strip the enamel off your teeth.

What? I've drank some deionized water before(just to taste tastelessness) and my teeth are just fine, as far as I know the only danger is that if you only drink deionized water then you might lack the salts that are normally in water. And that's only after drinking it for a week or so!

[Fhaolan]

What? I've drank some deionized water before(just to taste tastelessness) and my teeth are just fine, as far as I know the only danger is that if you only drink deionized water then you might lack the salts that are normally in water. And that's only after drinking it for a week or so!

Huh. And here I was looking for links to prove myself right...

Apparantly this was a myth that I was told by my High School Science teacher (long, long ago) to keep us from drinking the stuff, and I've carried it in my head all this time without any proof whatsoever.

I can't even find a reference to the myth anywhere.

So much for that. Ignore me. :smallsmile:

[Draz74]

If you want to bring real-world physics into it, trying to hit someone with a lightning bolt while they're submerged in a conducting material would be useless if the material was large (like, say, a river or lake). The electricity would flow everywhere, and might not even touch them.

Ah, but, see, the fun begins when you reverse this reasoning. A person surrounded by a fairly poor conductor -- such as relatively clean water -- will be in trouble when the ambient medium is struck by lightning, because all the lightning will flow right through their body as opposed to flowing through the water around them. Extra damage!

This is actually the reason why it's considered to be dangerous to be out on a lake during a thunderstorm.

[Hagentai]

All I was saying is that underwater campaigns actually do happen, and having RAW examples is a good thing for helping the people who read here. If you have half your spell list invalidated, you generally prepare different things.

(we spent the entire session looking for the lost orb of plot in an underwater city, and I could have accomplished it in about 3 minutes if a certain spell had worked underwater)


Ah ha, players rarely even use swim unless you railroad them. In water i normally empower bolts. if the caster is in water I suggest if he's a wizard I suggest his int tells him it's a bad idea.