Small Question on Surprised and AoOs

[Fawsto]

First: Sup guys, I've come to clarify a doubt, I hope you can help.

Lets use this situation:

4 PCs are dungeoncrawling, the standard 4-men group, all level 1, they stop on a split in the Dungeon, while they are discussing wich path they will take the Rogue hears footsteps from a direction, everybody but the Wizard prepares to face the threat, who was too busy reading a few inscriptions in a farther wall to notice the Rogue's whispers.

The Rogue, Fighter and Cleric see the Hobgoblin Patrol right away, wich is composed by 1 Hobo Fighter (Leader), 1 Hobo Rogue and 2 Hobo Combatants, that also have heard the PCs. Players and DM roll initiatives, the Players roll damn poorly, and all of them but the Cleric will act after the Hobos.

My questions will be systematic, so they will seem stupid, but I need everything perfectly clear since I need the arguments to convince someone else or to discuss the subject properly:

1) In this situation, who is Surprised, and thus won't apply his Dex to AC?

2) Who can be subject from the Hobo Rogue's Sneak Attack?

3) Who can, if needed, use and AoO against the Hobos?

My question regards the PH text about initiative and surprise.

I thank you in advance for any help you provide. Thank you.


- Faws

[Renegade Paladin]

The wizard is surprised. Nobody else is; however, they are still flat-footed (and therefore denied their Dexterity bonus to AC) until they take their first actions. However, such a scenario would technically trigger a surprise round since one participant (the wizard) is surprised, and the hobgoblin rogue would therefore get only one standard action and therefore is unlikely to be able to make a sneak attack in melee before the characters act. (If no participants were surprised, the first round would be conducted normally and the rogue would get a full round rather than one standard action.) Nobody gets to make an AoO while flat-footed unless the character has the Combat Reflexes feat; without that feat, attacks of opportunity may only occur after the character in question has already taken at least one action.

[Fawsto]

Ok, let's assume the Wizard is also prepared, but roll's as poorly as everybody else. So even by being prepared to face the Hobos, the Fighter, 4ex, still can, if the Hobo Rogue desires, take a Sneak Attack?

4) Who is flat-footed?

[AslanCross]

1) In this situation, who is Surprised, and thus won't apply his Dex to AC?

As long as a character is flat-footed (which everyone is before his/her first action), that character is denied their Dex bonus to AC.


2) Who can be subject from the Hobo Rogue's Sneak Attack?
Anyone who is flat-footed.


3) Who can, if needed, use and AoO against the Hobos?
Until their first action, no one (unless they have combat reflexes)

However, the Wizard will remain unable to react until after the surprise round, keeping him flat-footed much longer.

[Fawsto]

Hummm... It seems I was ignoring a rule that was out there for a looong time.

Thank you guys. It was very clarifying.

- Faws

[Blue Paladin]

1) In this situation, who is Surprised, and thus won't apply his Dex to AC?The final call is up to the DM, but if I were running the game, I would rule the wizard surprised, as he was "too busy reading a few inscriptions in a farther wall". He does not act in the surprise round.

Everyone else in the party made their Spot, and all the Hobs made their Listen. They are not surprised, and act in the surprise round in normal initiative order.


2) Who can be subject from the Hobo Rogue's Sneak Attack?Flat-footed characters are denied their Dexterity to AC, which makes them subject to sneak attack. If a character somehow has Uncanny Dodge (unlikely at first level, but not impossible), he retains his Dex to AC, and is not subject to sneak attack in this manner. That said, here's the breakdown in general:

a) In the surprise round, the Cleric acts before the Hobs. He is no longer flat-footed. Everyone else is subject to sneak attack.
b) In the first full round of combat, only the Wizard remains flat-footed (everyone else acted on the surprise round). Only the Wizard is subject to sneak attack (via denial of Dex).
c) Flanking also allows for sneak attack; only Improved Uncanny Dodge helps against this method. As long as the HobRogue flanks with one of his buddies, he can add sneak attack any time.


3) Who can, if needed, use and AoO against the Hobos?Anyone with the feat Combat Reflexes can use AoO, even while flat-footed. If they do not have the feat, then in general:

a) In the surprise round, the Cleric acts before the Hobs. He is no longer flat-footed and can use AoO normally. No one else can.
b) In the first full round of combat, only the Wizard remains flat-footed (everyone else acted on the surprise round). Everyone but the Wizard can use AoO.
c) In subsequent rounds, everyone can use AoO.

Remember, surprise rounds are a single standard action only! Not standard + move, or full-round action.

[Fawsto]

Thanks, really. I is just that it sounded odd that not surprised adventurers would still take Sneak Attacks, but I now understand why.

Thank you guys.

-- Faws