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TempusCCK
2008-01-21, 05:18 PM
I need some advice from players more experienced with the Artificer than I. A few quick questions and I will be very grateful.

1. How does the Artificer balance out with other classes?

2. Is an artificer useful at all outside of the item creation category? I.E: Can I take it on an adventure?

3. Does it mesh well outside of Eberron, I'm not playing Eberron and have no interest in it, I would just like a character focused on item creation.

Thanks for your advice.

Spiryt
2008-01-21, 05:26 PM
I don't have Ebberon, but I heard that Artificer is more broken than Dominic Deegan.

I'm sure that somebody will explain.

kamikasei
2008-01-21, 05:32 PM
Artificers are absurdly powerful in theoretical play because they can pull tricks like getting spells from half-caster or prestige class spell lists where they're intended for level 10 play but are level 2 spells, and so on. However, in actual play I can't imagine they're nearly so overpowered. It's similar to the Archivist in that sense, who theoretically can get all sorts of nice things from Paladin and Ranger spells.

If you give them time to craft between adventures they are generally considered a good and powerful class because they can make wands and other items on the cheap and use them for blasting and utility.

This is just what I've gleaned from discussions here though, I've not played with one myself.

edit: Oh, and hot-swappable weapon enchantments are obviously open to abuse. One idea I recall is a daily-updated bane enhancement for the Fighter. +2 enhancement and +2d6 untyped bonus damage against whatever enemy you expect to need it most that day? Om nom nom delicious brie.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-21, 05:43 PM
The worst tactics usually revolve around using the metamagic item infusion to add twin and admixture to a scorching ray wand. Three rays at 16d6 damage each, for a single charge. You can stack further for more amusement.

Wordmiser
2008-01-21, 05:51 PM
The Artificer class has some fundamental design problems: An Artificer will either be one of the weakest classes around (if it doesn't have crafting time) or one of the most absurdly powerful (using scrolls of any spell which might strike their fancy).

And the Artificer opens the options for ridiculous cheesiness (which is true for most classes), but I'd prefer to think that sort of thing doesn't see play.

Eldmor
2008-01-21, 05:53 PM
The worst tactics usually revolve around using the metamagic item infusion to add twin and admixture to a scorching ray wand. Three rays at 16d6 damage each, for a single charge. You can stack further for more amusement.
Then shove 3 of those wands into a multi-fire rod and shoot a 48d6 beam at a cost of 3 charges from each. Inefficient charge and money wise, but very for time wise. You effectively have a BFG. Average of 180 damage per shot. 16 shots per bunch of wans plus the 6 charges left over among 3 wands make 3216 damage across 22 rounds. Nice. :smallcool:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-21, 05:57 PM
Then shove 3 of those wands into a multi-fire rod and shoot a 48d6 beam at a cost of 3 charges from each. Inefficient charge and money wise, but very for time wise. You effectively have a BFG. Average of 180 damage per shot. 16 shots per bunch of wans plus the 6 charges left over among 3 wands make 3216 damage across 22 rounds. Nice. :smallcool:

Did someone say pew pew pew lazors? Cause I think someone said pew pew pew lazors!

Also, don't forget their ready access to a persistent version of any spell ...

TempusCCK
2008-01-21, 06:05 PM
Eh, I'm not looking for artificer cheese, this game is going to be low powered to begin with. If I can I'm going to make is so that the Artificer is a side character at best, really just there for the other characters to give crap to and have him pump out nifty/useful magic items. If, however, that's not an option, I'd like to know a little something about artificers before I run off into the dungeon with them.

Wordmiser
2008-01-21, 06:55 PM
I'd like to know a little something about artificers before I run off into the dungeon with them.Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=534502)a pretty good guide for the Artificer's abilities and for defining what it is they do, exactly.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-21, 09:52 PM
It's a pretty good class if you limit the meta feats the Artificer can know to meta feats he can actually use on his infusions but that is just a "common sense house rule" IMO otherwise the Artificer can be doing Epic Meta effects at low low levels burning out wands something no comparable PC can do in game. I have no issues with a L11/L12 caster (Includes Arcane with the Summoning domain) using a spell of Planar Ally to call a Noble Djinni or Effretti for Wishes or lower level PCs acquiring a scroll of the same. IMO that is how broke the Artificer class can be mechanically. A single level dip in Artificer can get a wizard or archivist every spell in the game in a tight low magic+ game for the cost of scribing a scroll and making a skill check.

Parvum
2008-01-21, 09:58 PM
The worst tactics usually revolve around using the metamagic item infusion to add twin and admixture to a scorching ray wand. Three rays at 16d6 damage each, for a single charge. You can stack further for more amusement.

What does the level adjustment shove that to? Just a guess: Too high for wands?



Also, don't forget their ready access to a persistent version of any spell ...

At a common casting time of ten minutes. As has been said, Artificer is god... IF HE HAS TIME.

(unless you are refferring to something I don't know about. Which is very likely. It is my right as a citizen to make uninformed opinions in the manner of an expert, either way.)

Wordmiser
2008-01-21, 10:17 PM
unless you are refferring to something I don't know aboutI think it's that one.

Gralamin
2008-01-21, 10:49 PM
What does the level adjustment shove that to? Just a guess: Too high for wands?
Level adjustment is not important with the artificers Metamagic wand ability - It simply enhances a spell in a wand already by using additional charges.



At a common casting time of ten minutes. As has been said, Artificer is god... IF HE HAS TIME.

(unless you are refferring to something I don't know about. Which is very likely. It is my right as a citizen to make uninformed opinions in the manner of an expert, either way.)

Persistent spell any spell via a wand by using 6 charges. Or Later, Metamagic Spell Completion ability.

Nebo_
2008-01-21, 10:52 PM
What does the level adjustment shove that to? Just a guess: Too high for wands?

Nope. +0 with the Metamagic item infusion.

TheSteelRat
2008-01-21, 11:01 PM
Isn't there an action point abuse that lets you basically get effectively unlimited charges from a wand? Incredibly abusable if they craft or purchase wands with low # of charges to offset cost.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-21, 11:06 PM
It's the L6 class special Metamagic Spell Trigger (SU) that is one of the major abuses.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-21, 11:36 PM
I have allowed two peaple to to play Artificers in my games. Both of them always had played wizards that specialized in makeing Magic Items...and rarly leveled...ever....I have them in my Greyhawk setting, and they mish in there pretty well. the 'go to' guys. instead of going to a Wizard with Item creation or a Cleric.

As for in my Newr setting..the seem underpowered. but that's fine.

If they get annoying remeber you can just send after them some ClockWork Horrors...they track that too long they will have to remake all their magic items.

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-22, 12:07 AM
What I like about them is their variability. Want a wand or scroll for every occasion? Do-able. A small horde of clockwork minions? Done. Want to spend all your time and money crafting a mobile, floating fortress of doom? You can do that, too.

Also, once you make yourself one of the homunculus that specializes in crafting and a black hole or bag of holding, you can adventure and craft at the same time. It'll only ever work on one thing at a time, but it still keeps you from needing a week of downtime every time you gain a level. Just pop in every once in awhile and check on it to put the final craft roll.

leperkhaun
2008-01-22, 02:34 AM
As someone else said they can be very weak or pretty powerfull depending on the game.

The most important factor is: Will they have time to craft items?

If they dont, then you really might as well not have one. If they do have time, then how powerfull they are is only based on that players imagination. They can be really weak or gamebreaking.

The great thing about them is that they can adapt to many situations if they are given time to prepare an assortment of items.

On the other hand, the class can easily be abused. Just check with your DM before you make a Maximised triple ray loop of DOOM staff.

The artificer class can work with just about any setting fairly easy.

Talic
2008-01-22, 03:04 AM
Then you can be teh walking factory too...

A worker Homoncolous <sp?> from the Eberron books, created by you.
A portable hole, created by you.
Enchanting supplies, purchased by you.

What's it equal? A magic item creation shop, on your freakin' belt, requiring almost no time on your part. Suddenly everything you get is whatever you need it to be.

Duke of URL
2008-01-22, 08:40 AM
I like the concept of an Artificer, but I don't think it meshes nicely with normal campaigns. First of all, it tries to be too jack-of-all-trades (trapfinding plus infusions plus UMD god), and secondly, it is extremely variable in power based on time and general availability of items.

Personally, I'd like to cannibalize the class somewhat. :smallbiggrin:

Such as:

A character who gains a magical item crafting feat of any sort also gains a craft reserve as an Artificer of the same class level; if you have multiple classes with caster levels, use the highest
Retain Essence becomes a feat (general feat list), rather than a class feature, with the pre-requisite of having any magical item crafting feat (and is also added to the bonus feat list for any class that has magical item creation feats in its class bonus feat list)


This accomplishes two key things:

Eliminates any artificer "cheese" or weakness (depending on style of play)
Makes item creation less penalizing for other caster classes

Stabby
2008-01-22, 08:55 AM
Theres a spell, that I can't seem to find that gives one action point per round for x/rounds per lvl range: personal. Put that in a wand. Then use meta magic item infusion and persistent that bad boy on yourself.

DING!

Artificer can then use those action points to do all sorts of things that are borderline-completly cheesetastic.

1 minute infusion time => 1 round
Metamagic cheese => free
Lazzors of PewPew Death => Pwnage

Its fun, and as I said, can be cheesetastic.
And all it takes is a wand, and a 3rd lvl infusion. Do that for 50 days, wash repeat.