Protoss Vs Space Marines.

[Warshrike]

Spawned due to argument caused by me in Tyranid Vs Zerg thread.

Who is better; The Protoss from Starcraft, or the Space Marines of Warhammer 40k??

[LordVader]

Space Marines.

Tougher, faster, smarter, stronger. :smallcool:

[AslanCross]

Space Marines.

Tougher, faster, smarter, stronger. :smallcool:

I honestly don't know who'd win, but I don't think this is necessarily true. The average Protoss Zealot is nine feet tall, has personal plasma shielding, has limited precognition, and may have cybernetic leg enhancements to make them run a lot faster. I'd say they're evenly matched, with space marines having a slight advantage due to ranged weaponry.

[LordVader]

Space Marines are tougher than an actual zealot. Check. Without armor on either side, Space Marines have multiples of all vital organs, insta-clotting blod, and are all-around tougher.

Space Marines are faster: Close one, as Zealots have implants and Space Marines have powered armor.

Space Marines are stronger: Check, they can crush skulls with their bare hands.

Space Marines are smarter: Check. It's been flat-out stated that your average Zealot is a fanatic. (IIRC) While Space Marines are also fanatics, even the lowliest one can still make a good tactical assessment, where zealots seem more prone to "BANZAI!!"

The only thing saving the Zealot here is his shields. Precognition won't save those, and once they go down the Marine can just flame/'nade off a leg, and he's done.

[SurlySeraph]

@^: True, the average space marine beats the average Protoss warrior. The average half-dead space marine veteran (someone in Terminator armor) also beats the average half-dead Protoss veteran (Dragoon, and they can probably beat the SC2 Immortal). The highest-tier space marines (Primarchs and such) probably beat the highest-tier Protoss - though Zeratul can do things like destroying small buildings in a single slice. However, it's the mid-tier soldiers that give them a run for their money. Dark templars are all permanently invisible, and they can do a ton of damage in melee. Their psychic power comes from the void of space, not from living things, so they wouldn't be detectable using the Warp. A few of them could annihilate any group of space marines that didn't have a good auspex. The high templars are just as dangerous; they release storms of psychic energy that tear people's minds apart. Fancy armor isn't helpful when your very soul is breaking.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Actually termies are usually just old veteran warriors, HALF-DEAD veterans are Dreadnoughts which... yea they pwnzorz goons.:smallwink:

[warty goblin]

Space Marines are fairly adept at fighting things that try to rip their mind out through whatever orifice is most convenient, like say, Chaos...

I'm not saying that a Templar's attack wouldn't work, but it's hardly an end-all attack, particularly if we drop the Gray Knights into this.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

And they have some experience fighting invisible foes, plus unless the Dark Templar can mask their heat signatures (or are cold blooded or something) the SM always have Prey-Sight (something like infrared only you know... better)

[Solo]

The glorious and ever-victorious Adeptus Astartes shall win an undeniable victory over any of the foul xenos that they encounter, purging all unclean life from their sights!

[Eita]

@^: True, the average space marine beats the average Protoss warrior. The average half-dead space marine veteran (someone in Terminator armor) also beats the average half-dead Protoss veteran (Dragoon, and they can probably beat the SC2 Immortal). The highest-tier space marines (Primarchs and such) probably beat the highest-tier Protoss - though Zeratul can do things like destroying small buildings in a single slice. However, it's the mid-tier soldiers that give them a run for their money. Dark templars are all permanently invisible, and they can do a ton of damage in melee. Their psychic power comes from the void of space, not from living things, so they wouldn't be detectable using the Warp. A few of them could annihilate any group of space marines that didn't have a good auspex. The high templars are just as dangerous; they release storms of psychic energy that tear people's minds apart. Fancy armor isn't helpful when your very soul is breaking.

If the Space Marines get their Primarchs then the game is already over. There are 1000 Chapter Masters, all of whom are masters of thousands of campaigns and lords of battle. They answer to no man and are the strongest of the Imperium. Seriously. That's how Chapter Masters roll. Hell, Lord Macragge killed a Tyranid by tearing its head off and crushing it.

As for mid-tier, it's called indiscriminate fire. Oh, and the DT's shields don't render them fully invisible. I'm pretty sure that they'll learn to shoot the shimmer.

(Note: The following is dubious)
Oh, and the Psychic Storm does not tear your mind apart. It affects buildings too.

[Eita]

The glorious and ever-victorious Adeptus Astartes shall win an undeniable victory over any of the foul xenos that they encounter, purging all unclean life from their sights!

Praised be His Angels of Death Brother Solo! Death to the mutant, the witch, and the xeno! For the Emperor!

[Ossian]

You see, I like the space marines. I like the Protoss fluff better, but SM are really cool. What annoys me is that one has to admit that in a VS thread involving one of the races from WH40K, especially Necrons, SM and Tyranids, there is little or no contest. All the rest plays in a different and lower league.

That's because they are so much pimped. The authors sat down and ran through a checklist of uberness, making sure they were cheking off all items.
Double everything, armor that stops missiles and weighs like a utility sport wagon, genius brains, see in the dark, see in the fog, breath chlorine like mountain air, insta clotting blood, good tactical mind, sycophants, bred for war, bajillions of bajillions from megabajilions of world, armed with pistols that have the power of a Gatling .60 (and that's just the pistol), on ships with single turrets that could take down a Star Destroyer in a few shots manned by thousands of sycophants, ALL this after having screened out 99.999% of the candidates, and we're talking just about basic infantry unit, what other civilizations call Cannon Fodder (now, how i that a CR 5 encounter is beyond me). If you go up to sergeants, terminators, Librarians and Primarchs it's just out of scale (we're not even discussing the emperor). It's like the uberest thing you can imagine with a x100 multiplier to it. They are an infinite Legion that would have guys like Disney's Stitch, Yoda and Palpatine work as Janitors to clean the Chapter's Stronghold hall and Wonder Woman working as a low profile secretary.

Space Marines are the Bugatti Veyron of Roleplay battles...:smallfrown:


But I have found someone that can mop the floor with them


http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/968/muariesfc8.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muariesfc8.jpg)
Crystal Wall will stop a Nuke.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2865/sagajt0.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sagajt0.jpg)
Mind control, and stellar explosions


http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4935/aioliafd7.th.png (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aioliafd7.png)
For some extra brutality and firepower

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9316/shaka019xy6.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shaka019xy6.jpg)
Opens Eyes...everyone dies. Can't take it on Buddha, sorry.

All in the Best armor conceivable, speed of light, 7th sense (8th in the case of Shaka). And there's 8 more of them if need be

[Mr. Scaly]

Just out of curiosity, does 'Protoss' mean just the zealots or everything they can bring to bear?

[Oslecamo]

Hmm, last time I checked, zealots could also:

Tear apart tanks in close combat? Check.

Survive tank shots and other heavy weapons? Check.

Genetic enanchments and implants? Well, protoss use both psionic powers and their high technology to power up their combat capacities. Check.

Strategy? Zealots battle cry is "We fight as one." They are trained to fight as a single being, attacking enemy forces with great coordination skills to maximize damage.

[warty goblin]

Hmm, last time I checked, zealots could also:

Tear apart tanks in close combat? Check.

Survive tank shots and other heavy weapons? Check.

Genetic enanchments and implants? Well, protoss use both psionic powers and their high technology to power up their combat capacities. Check.

Strategy? Zealots battle cry is "We fight as one." They are trained to fight as a single being, attacking enemy forces with great coordination skills to maximize damage.

Funny, playing Starcraft I always thought the Protoss strategy was more like this:

Protoss 1) "Hey, you see that chokepoint with bunkers on either side, manned by stimmed up marines and firebats?"

Protoss 2) Wait, the one with the siege tank behind it, or the one with the battlecruiser floating inexplicably overhead?

Protoss 1) Nono, the one with the three siege tanks hunkered down behind the bunkers, and the two battlecruisers floating inexplicably overhead.

Protoss 2) Oh yeah! Say I have a great idea- let's charge it!

Protoss 1) Just what I was going to say. Great minds think alike.

Protoss 2) It must be because we're psionic and precognitive.

Protoss 1) I knew you were going to say that.

Protoss 2) Haha. For Aiur!

Protoss 1) Charge! By the way, did it ever strike you as funny that we're fighting for a place called air?

[Oslecamo]

Go check the videos presenting starcraft 2. The protoss are much better chargers now.

[konfeta]

Funny, playing Starcraft I always thought the Protoss strategy was more like this:

Funny, playing TT I remember a Grot taking out Terminators. Please, FFS, avoid the plague of using game mechanics... Or we have Space Marines who can be take down a couple of guardsmen with lasguns and Terran Battle Cruisersthat are wiped out by a squad of Marines with rifles.

[warty goblin]

Funny, playing TT I remember a Grot taking out Terminators. Please, FFS, avoid the plague of using game mechanics... Or we have Space Marines who can be take down a couple of guardsmen with lasguns and Terran Battle Cruisersthat are wiped out by a squad of Marines with rifles.

The key difference here being that GW has always stated that tabletop is not a metric of actual unit power. The case is far more ambigious with Blizzard however.

Also, it annoys me a bit that apparently nobody can relax long enough to actually realize it was a joke.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The key difference here being that GW has always stated that tabletop is not a metric of actual unit power. The case is far more ambigious with Blizzard however.

Also, it annoys me a bit that apparently nobody can relax long enough to actually realize it was a joke.

The Inquisitor game system's much better for working out the relative strengths, I've found (although Thorpe did admit at one point that they'd halved all damage variables in order for anyone to survive the first volley).

[Thangorodrim]

Stylistically, I like both.

As far as their military doctrine goes, I think the marines in general approach warfare slightly more sensibly, which is saying a lot I suppose.


The Protoss suffer from an inconsistent portrayal in SC novels, and the crippling bull**** problem that comes from deriving their capablities from RTS game mechanics older than my sister.

[Ganurath]

Let's note forget that the Protoss have Observers, which provide excellent forward intel provided their cloaking technology is superior to that of a race that still wasn't sapient when the original tech was being developed.

Also, since the Dreadnought is essentially a living soldier in really big armor, what's to stop him from falling prey to a Dark Archon's mind control?

[Oslecamo]

The protoss and the SM end up uniting to fight the Tyrannid hovermind who has ascended after absorbing a mighty relic!

Any similarities with the starcraft sotryline are mere coincidence.

[Storm Bringer]

The protoss and the SM end up uniting to fight the Tyrannid hovermind who has ascended after absorbing a mighty relic!

Any similarities with the starcraft sotryline are mere coincidence.

hovermind? now i have an image of a 30-mile wide brain sat floating above a planet somewhere......

[Metal Head]

Let's consider the fact that the protoss successfully liquefied planets with their ships. Now then, I think that one on one a zealot and space marine would have a hell of a fight, but the zealot would win. Instantly clotting blood doesn't do any good when you have a psi-blade ripping through your heart. Zealots have already shown that they can rip through armored anything.

Now then, lets get on to the other protoss units. Dragoons might be pretty useless. However, lets think about archons. How the hell could an archon not obliterate a group of space marines? Then there's just regulare high templar. They could create illusionary troops, which would confuse the space marines. They also get to make storms of psionic energy. Dark templar would just rip through space marine ranks thanks to their invisibility and lightsabers super awesome swords. Now if the protoss have dark archons, then the space marines are royally screwed. Once they start turning on themselves the end is going to be near for them (as if it already wasn't).

Did you just see how threatening the ground troops were? Let's move onto air units. Scouts won't be very useful for them, and corsairs will be just useless. However, protoss arbiters will be very powerful. They just lock the space marines in stasis. The protoss then come in and surround them. The moment the marines come out of stasis it's going to be like sticking them in a blender and hitting "liquify." Now then, the protoss carrier just gets to send out tons of little annoying things, so it won't be that effective. Basically this is what I see as happening in a battle:

The space marines are fighting a fairly even match with the zealots, only having a slight advantage because they have ranged weapons. Still, they're in a tough fight. Next, archons come in and charge, ripping through ranks of space marines. The space marines begin to retaliate, only to be eviscerated from another direction by enemies they can't see. Several high templars appear a bit further back from the battle, and suddenly it seems like the number of enemies has doubled. The marines are now wasting some of their time fighting enemies who aren't even real. Then a storm comes appears in the sky, and lightning bolts begin to strike the marines. They don't kill the marines, but do weaken them. Then, some marines begin turning against their own allies. The cause can be seen, a group of dark archons.

To summarize, the marines are now completely confused. Their trying to hold back terrifying archons on one side. Zealots are attacking from the other side, slowly wearing down and killing the space marines. And to cap all that off not all their enemies are real, and many marines fall trying to kill an enemy that isn't really there. Meanwhile a bunch of them are getting eviscerated by some invisible force (dark templar). They're being hit by lightning. Worst of all, some of their own people are turning against them. And of course, if the battle doesn't go well for the protoss then the ships in orbit can just press the "incinerate" button on their ships and get rid of the planet.

So, who wins?

[LordVader]

It's not that the Space Marines are "overpowered" against Protoss, it's just that a Zealot's dumb-ass melee-only style simply fails against Space Marine ranged weaponry. Their shields will fall quickly to a bolter, at which point all the Marine need do is blow off a leg. So Zealots are very much so inferior to Marines.


High Templars are a no-go. Space Marines possess the most formidable psykers in the entire Imperium. So you're not going to be able to pull stuff like Hallucination off. Essentially, any psychic power that is not an actual, physical manifestation will be neutralized, and even then the Librarians can counter it with their psychic hoods or reply with nasties like Vortex of Doom.

Dark Archons will again be thwarted by Librarians, though possessing a Marine is no cakewalk.
Archons will be tough, but sufficient firepower will bring one down, albeit with heavy casualties.
Dark Templars? Sensed by Librarians and WTFPWNZORED with ranged weaponry. They'll cause casualties, but they're hardly the be-all end-all weapon.

Arbiters are spaceships. Great big honking spaceships. They will have to fight their way through the Space Marine cruisers before they can pull any Stasis Field junk off.
Space Marines have a better planet-killing "win button" in the form of cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs: check. In fact, it's been mentioned that only a few Protoss ships can torch planets, while nearly every capital ship in the Imperium (including SM vessels) can carry out Exterminatus, provided they have the proper payload.

One more thing: Dark Templar cloaking is actually impossible. They "bend light" around themselves, right? Well, that means that they can't see anything and are stumbling around blind----> useless. :smallbiggrin:

[Deadmeat.GW]

Also remember not all marines are the same...

Invisible almost you say?

Hum, not quite as much use against say Iron Hands or Space Wolves...

As for melee, some space marine chapters excell at melee combat.

You cannot assume quite as much of an advantage for Protos when facing marines in melee because the vanilla flavoured ones are still going to be able to hold their own due to training and armour and the more militant chapters are going to be at the Protoss' throat soo fast the Protoss will be desperately trying to get some distance so that they can use their 'move-as-one-melee' combat tactics.

Assuming that marines are going to be taken over just like that by people who are using their mind powers is also not such a foregone conclusion.
Some chapters,will actually become MORE dangerous if they figure out there are enemies facing them with 'witching'-powers...
As in they become soo obsessed with killing them that they start ignoring little details as loosing limbs or actually being technically dead a minute already just to get at the 'witches'.

Don't forget, they fight creatures with cloaking abilities already, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons have them to a bigger or smaller degree.
Cloaking is an advantage versus Spaces Marines, not a I-win-button.

All in all I give the odds to the Marines but they will suffer pretty severe losses.
If we go Vanilla flavour marines, any of special chapters like Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Blood Angels,... are quite likely to make the win more certain due to the specific advantages they bring to the table.
In most cases this means better close quarters skills meaning even if the Protoss get in close they are still not likely to win.
And this is due to different reasons, more terminators for Dark Angels or far faster moving troops, superior close combat skills/detection skills for Blood Angels/Space Wolves, absolute hatred for 'witches' from Black Templars and increased capabilities when facing such enemies.

Also...terrifying Archons?

Have you seen some of the stuff a marine has to deal with?

An archon does not fall under terrifying, he might make it to scary but even that only barely.

Demons, now those are scary, especially the bigger ones, tyranid hordes are full of scary things, necron overlords or C'Tann are scary to the point that one of them has imprinted almost every race in the universe with a fear of death which he represented...
And they fight these things and remains still fairly efficient.
Not at their best but I don't see them fearing archons or being terrified by them.

Keep in mind that through psycho-conditioning they are far more resistant to psychic attacks of any kind then normal humans.
Their faith literally becomes a shield.

The psi-blades are going to be somewhat reduced in effect, oh sure the armour itself does not protect but the willpower and training at resisting psychic attacks is going to severely blunt the effects.
And then there is the fact that close assault marines tend to have similar effect weapons also which means that skill, strength, stamina and speed in melee combat is all going to come into play.

In which the marines are very, very likely to win the strength and stamina bit flat out and give zealots a very, very good run for their money on the other two.

[Oslecamo]

One more thing: Dark Templar cloaking is actually impossible. They "bend light" around themselves, right? Well, that means that they can't see anything and are stumbling around blind----> useless. :smallbiggrin:

Who needs eyes when you can simply detect the mind of your enemy with your psychic powers? :smallcool:

Anyway, nobody is sure on how the invisibility thing works. The dark templar aren't really big talkers.

And you're really understimating protoss shields. Terran marines shoot uranium bullets at supersonic speed, strong enough to punch troug any kind of solid stuff, and a zealot can literallytake hundreds of shots whitout any piercing their shield.

Even if the bolters can tear apart shields quickly, well, that's why you get terran cover. If the bolters were that pwrnz the space marines wouldn't need close combat weapons.

Also, the zealots have 2 psyblades. Most marines only have 1 close combat weapon. Psy blades probably count as force weapons, so chances are the marine will be cut down before the zealot.

And I think you still didn't understood how fast they can run with those implants. Let me put it this way: zealots don't use bikes because they're already as fast as them.

Remember, between psychic defenses and high tech armor, zealots are tougher than starcraft tanks, and I would bet good money they are at least as tough as space marines in power armour.

[Emperor Tippy]

And if we bring in Grey Knights.....

Another key fact that isn't being mentioned is how Space Marines think. They will see the Protoss as filthy xenos who use psychic powers. So that gives us the following situations:

1) The Protoss are invading an IoM world.
The Space Marines will fight to hold the world and defeat the xenos for a time dependent on the population of the world and other factors such as what else is going on in the galaxy.

2) The Protoss are invading a world with some object that the Space Marines need to acquire.
The Space Marines will drop their entire force down on wherever that object is while blasting the rest of the world from orbit with Energy Lances. Kind of like what the Covenant did to Reach in the Halo books.

3) The Protoss are found on a world of no real use to the Space Marines.
The Space Marines carry out an exterminatus.

And in all cases where they can't hold they will exterminatus the world.

The Protoss didn't glass worlds immediately because they had human life on them and this allowed the Zerg to spread. The Space Marines have ordered the glassing of their own home worlds before when they became tainted.


The Space Marines have read The Seven habits of Highly Effective Pirates and follow it.

Rule #6: If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Rule #9: Never turn your back on an enemy.
Rule #12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
Rule #13: Do unto others.
Rule #27: Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
Rule #29: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, no more, no less.
Rule #30: A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Rule #31: Only cheaters prosper.
Rule #34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
Rule #35: That which does not kill you has made a tactical error.
Rule #36: When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support.
Rule #37: There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

[puppyavenger]

And you're really understimating protoss shields. Terran marines shoot uranium bullets at supersonic speed, strong enough to punch troug any kind of solid stuff, and a zealot can literallytake hundreds of shots whitout any piercing their shield.


wich take multiple rounds to kill zerglings, which are not in anyway more dangeros they look, a giant bug the size of a small dog with clws, who die from being run down by a jeep.

[Oslecamo]

Hmm, no. Now you're just making stuff up about the SM.

You still have a lot to learn about the Space marines.

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions +++

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

+++ Isador Akios, Librarian of the Blood Ravens+++

This planet is a graveyard - care to join me?

+++ Techmarine Keilor of the Deathwatch (from the Doom Eagles Chapter) shortly before blowing himself up amidst a genestealer cult on Pavia +++

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

+++ Blood Raven Librarian saying+++


First, there is such thing as overkill. The space marines ammo and weapons cost a damn lot. Space marines are taught to win with the least possible amount of resources expended. A weapon lost is a great shame for a marine.

Second, the space marines are super paranoid. It's not uncommon for space marines to kill themselves simply because they suspect each other of heresy. They truly don't trust anyone.

Third, the protoss can teleport from planet to planet. When they want something in a planet they simply send a small ship, drop some probes in some remote place, and the probes build gateways to bring the troops. Effecient, quick, and very little rackus. When the SM manage to launch the exterminatus the protoss will be light years away.

Fourth, the SM NEVER ever use diplomacy. They only speack with guns.

Fifth, the space marines rarely use massive bombardments. Their trainment is expensive as hell, so if they are near a planet with enemies, they'll come down and they'll fight face to face. There is no sense in training uber warriors if you use orbital bombardments all the time.


You ask a lot of questions, Marlin. You know what I think? I think you need another drink.

+++ Skold Greypelt of the Space Wolves on Shadrac to Sergeant Marlin of the Xth Slavok Regiment +++

[Mr. Scaly]

Besides, if this is a battle between the two the object is to make both sides fight, not nuke one side while it's trying to negotiate.

[Darkone8752]

wich take multiple rounds to kill zerglings, which are not in anyway more dangeros they look, a giant bug the size of a small dog with clws, who die from being run down by a jeep.

Run down by a jeep? Do you have even a single inkling of an idea of what happens to organic creatures hit by several tons of metal moving at 70+ miles per hour? Not to mention marine guass rifles are just that- guass weapons using Electromagnetic propulsion- in other words little pieces of metal blowing entirely through your body and causing horrendous injuries to anything not hit directly. Giant bug with claws? Those claws tear through steel plate like its nothing.

Surly- psi storms don't attack peoples mind, they rip the people themselves apart.

There is no surviving being technically dead for a minute- try the 5-20 seconds it takes for your brain to run out of oxygen. Theres no being technically dead for 5 second even when your head is removed. This doesn't take fanatic devotation to burning the witch, just alot of drugs.

Besides, if this is a battle between the two the object is to make both sides fight, not nuke one side while it's trying to negotiate.QFT

[LordVader]

Oslecamo, please give me proof that a Protoss shield can take hundreds of bullet hits. Bullets, maybe: but against rockets, I doubt they're quite that resilient.

Bolters are vastly more powerful than a Gauss Rifle anyways. Bolters fire ~.75 cal mini-rockets. Plus, the very nature of Gauss weaponry makes them more effective against "soft" targets, as gauss projectiles are tiny and not ideal for bringing down shields.

I have also seen nothing to suggest that a Zealot is tougher than an Ar****e Siege Tank, and the best armor in the world means jack when you don't have it on your legs!!!

Regarding the Psi-storm: Space Marine Librarians can use their psychic hoods to suppress/negate it.

Regarding cover: Space Marines aren't stupid. They'll deploy in an area with little to no terrain in front of it. They'll use anti-plant bombs to reduce vegetation to slag. And the weaker ranged weaponry of Protoss will force them to engage regardless.

Lastly, I remember reading that method of cloaking from some Blizzard thing (might've been a book) and psychic power can only detect minds, not the wall in front of you. ^^

[puppyavenger]

Run down by a jeep? Do you have even a single inkling of an idea of what happens to organic creatures hit by several tons of metal moving at 70+ miles per hour? Not to mention marine guass rifles are just that- guass weapons using Electromagnetic propulsion- in other words little pieces of metal blowing entirely through your body and causing horrendous injuries to anything not hit directly. Giant bug with claws? Those claws tear through steel plate like its nothing.



I was pointing out how marine gaus rounds are not that powerful if it takes several round to kill a zergling, a creature without any extraordinary protection, so the fact that it takes hundreds to take down a shield is not so amazing.


how do bullets take down a forcefield anyway?

[konfeta]

Probably overload it. The way I see it, there is a certain threshhold of energy input into the field that will collapse it. Makes sense to me, at least when you look at the representation in Starcraft.


Regarding the Psi-storm: Space Marine Librarians can use their psychic hoods to suppress/negate it.

While I agree that most stuff in Starcraft loses to most stuff in Warhammer (scales are different); why does everyone automatically assume that Librarians own the elites of an inherintly psionic race? Do Librarians dominate the Eldar Farseers? From what I've seen, while Eldar are more technologically advanced and better equiped then Protoss, their psychic powers seem mostly on par unless you start bringing in plot-puffed heroes.

[Emperor Tippy]

Because librarians are gamma or better level psykers. And at Alpha+ level an IoM psyker can seriously mess up a world, to the point of uninhabitability. They can mind control entire Warhamer 40K sized armies and make them turn their weapons on themselves without breaking a sweat. Or read the minds of everyone on a planet at once.

Delta level psykers are weaker than that but they can still mind control a fair sized village (100+) at a time with no real problem or kill a man with a glance.

So a beta level psyker (a high end librarian) with his gear should be able to contain the psi-storm of a mere High Templar with relative ease. After all he can mind control people better than a Dark Archon.

[Darkone8752]

[QUOTE=puppyavenger;3829084]I was pointing out how marine gaus rounds are not that powerful if it takes several round to kill a zergling, a creature without any extraordinary protection, so the fact that it takes hundreds to take down a shield is not so amazing.QUOTE]

Actually they do, insanely tough armored hides. Watch the intro to the games, forgot which one, probably brood war- but he filled the things will holes and it took an autocannon to take them down. Guass weapons aren't weak, zerg are just very resilient. If the guass weapons were so weak, they wouldn't penetrate the hide anyways, let alone be used in favor of more powerful terran infantry weapons, or modern assault rifles at that.

[Destro_Yersul]

And you're really understimating protoss shields. Terran marines shoot uranium bullets at supersonic speed, strong enough to punch troug any kind of solid stuff, and a zealot can literallytake hundreds of shots whitout any piercing their shield.

Space Marine weapons fire .75 cal explosive rounds at high speeds, strong enough to blow great whacking chunks out of any kind of solid stuff. If you get hit by a bolt round without armour, you explode. In fact, most of the time you explode even if you are wearing armour.

Even if the bolters can tear apart shields quickly, well, that's why you get terran cover. If the bolters were that pwrnz the space marines wouldn't need close combat weapons.

Bolters tear apart cover pretty good too. Flamers just flow around it, filling the space with lots and lots of fire. And the bolters are that good. But the space marines have close combat weapons anyways, because they frequently fight enemies who outnumber them 5 or 6 to one. Even if they kill one enemy every second, the remainder will still reach them. And punching knives (read short swords) with mono molecular edges into people in close combat tends to be more effective than merely bludgeoning them with your gun.

Also, the zealots have 2 psyblades. Most marines only have 1 close combat weapon. Psy blades probably count as force weapons, so chances are the marine will be cut down before the zealot.

Psyblades have never been demonstrated as being able to cut through several inches of high quality combat armour as though it were soft butter, which is what force weapons and power weapons do. If you think I'm wrong and they have been shown to do this, please point out where. Anyways, to completely disable a marine you'd need to remove his head. Zealot psyblades are not well placed for slashes. I'd expect stabbing from them. And if you get close enough to a marine to stab him you will not be stabbing him again.

And I think you still didn't understood how fast they can run with those implants. Let me put it this way: zealots don't use bikes because they're already as fast as them.

Marines don't need to run at you because they have guns and can shoot you instead. Fast or not, you are not dodging the massive hail of fire put out by a space marine tactical squad. Especially not when you run right at them. And again, once you are close enough to stab them, you will be doing it once.

Remember, between psychic defenses and high tech armor, zealots are tougher than starcraft tanks, and I would bet good money they are at least as tough as space marines in power armour.

Between decades, of training, high tech armour, high tech guns, having fought things infinetly more nasty than all three starcraft races put together and simply massive amounts of mental conditioning and genetic engineering, Space Marines are tougher than Starcraft tanks too. I'd bet good money that one Space Marine could fight two zealots at a time, at least.

My comments in Bold.

[Piedmon_Sama]

There are supposedly about 1,000,000 Space Marines existing in the entire universe. Now, more Chapters stray from the official doctrines (which state each Chapter shall hold 1,000 warriors) than stick to them, so we can account for more. I doubt their full population at any time is anywhere close to 10,000,000 say.

This is why Space Marines do not go to "war" as it is understood in the typical meaning. They exist to support Imperial armies (usually Guard Regiments, maybe a Planetary Defense Force or Sister of Battle detachment). The Space Marines perform special missions, such as breaking an enemy-held chokepoint, sabotaging or destroying enemy stations and factories, assassinating enemy commanders (if you can't get someone from the Officio Assassinorum to do it), etc. etc. Although insanely impressive fighters, they are very limited in what they can do if they don't have humanity's armies backing them up.

If the Space Marines were, on their own, subjected to a war against the Protoss, I seriously doubt even the combined strength of all the Chapters could take and hold territory as needed. They might win every engagement (I doubt, actually; Protoss energy shields, weapons and speed give them an edge in hand to hand over the typical Space Marine, if not assault-oriented Chapters like Blood Angels and Space Wolves, and if Photon cannons in Starcraft are the same photons used by the Tau in 40k then those are damn potent shooty weapons), but they wouldn't have the numbers to hold any objectives or withstand a massed assault from an entire system's forces.

Bear in mind that it takes years--depending on the Chapter, maybe even a decade of training--to recruit a new Marine. Every Marine who falls in battle must have his gene-seed extracted, so it can be given to his replacement. Every Marine represents a huge investment of time, training and resources; their lives are not to be thrown away for a mere tactical advantage. An entire squad of Marines getting blown away would be a huge blow to the Chapter. A whole force being lost would be an unmitigated disaster. These aren't Guardsmen you can just throw at the enemy until you clog their rivers with your dead...

[warty goblin]

An interesting point:

1) Protoss lost to the Zerg.

2) Zerg, as establishe elsewhere, lose to Tyrrannids.

3) The First Company of a single Space Marine chapter was enough to seriously cripple the Tyrranid ground forces at Maccragge. IIRC the rest of the chapter was sufficient to actually wipe the Tyrranids off of the planet.

4) Thus we have Protoss < Zerg < Tyrranids ~ Space Marines.

QED.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Fourth, the SM NEVER ever use diplomacy. They only speack with guns.


Explain to me, then, p11 of the Tau codex. Sure doesn't look like he is speaking with guns, nor thinking with portals, for that matter.

[puppyavenger]

There are supposedly about 1,000,000 Space Marines existing in the entire universe. Now, more Chapters stray from the official doctrines (which state each Chapter shall hold 1,000 warriors) than stick to them, so we can account for more. I doubt their full population at any time is anywhere close to 10,000,000 say.


No, just no. The average space marine chapter does NOT have 10,000 members! each chapter only has a few more than 1,000 gene-seeds, meaning that it is impossible no matter how far they deviate from the codex, and the majority of SM do follow the codex, doesn't it say so right in the SM codex?

[Piedmon_Sama]

No, just no. The average space marine chapter does NOT have 10,000 members! each chapter only has a few more than 1,000 gene-seeds, meaning that it is impossible no matter how far they deviate from the codex, and the majority of SM do follow the codex, doesn't it say so right in the SM codex?

I didn't say there were 10,000 in one chapter. I quoted two known pieces of fluff: there is intended to be 1,000 Space Marines per chapter, and 1,000,000 total ("one for each world in the Imperium" it goes). We don't actually know how many Chapters there are; Games Workshop will always leave that one open so that players can invent their own chapters if they wish. Leastwise that's my assumption, maybe it's laid out somewhere I've never seen.

But anyway, you agree that there are not many Space Marines, even if you took every Chapter and put them all in one place (which, incidentally, would NEVER happen. The Space Marines are needed all over the Imperium, there is no way you could pull them together to combat just one threat. They couldn't even all get together to defend Terra during the Horus Herecy, a lot of them had to come from the far fringes of the Imperium and arrived way too late).

[Callos_DeTerran]

An interesting point:

1) Protoss lost to the Zerg.

2) Zerg, as establishe elsewhere, lose to Tyrrannids.

3) The First Company of a single Space Marine chapter was enough to seriously cripple the Tyrranid ground forces at Maccragge. IIRC the rest of the chapter was sufficient to actually wipe the Tyrranids off of the planet.

4) Thus we have Protoss < Zerg < Tyrranids ~ Space Marines.

QED.

Ahem...It should be noted that the First Company in question was the elite of the Ultramarines. The elite of ANY Space Marine company should not be taken lightly and the 'nids still destroyed the First Company and dealt heavy losses all around. (The Ultramarines also have Tigurius who is rumored to be the most powerful psyker in the Imperium.)


...>.> Sorry. Had the instinctive urge to defend Tyranid reputation even though Warty didn't actually say the Marines were better then my beloved 'nids.

[Talkkno]

An interesting point:

1) Protoss lost to the Zerg.

2) Zerg, as establishe elsewhere, lose to Tyrrannids.

3) The First Company of a single Space Marine chapter was enough to seriously cripple the Tyrranid ground forces at Maccragge. IIRC the rest of the chapter was sufficient to actually wipe the Tyrranids off of the planet.

4) Thus we have Protoss < Zerg < Tyrranids ~ Space Marines.

QED.

No, the Zerg was a minor annoyance untill Tassader decide to stop burning planets and land ground forces, thats when it started to get a bit out of hand.

[warty goblin]

No, the Zerg was a minor annoyance untill Tassader decide to stop burning planets and land ground forces, thats when it started to get a bit out of hand.

So... they are commanded by a moron. I rest my case.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

So... they are commanded by a moron. I rest my case.

No they were commanded by someone with a concience, who didn't believe BURNING THE WORLDS of INNOCENT BYSTANDERS, in the name of their war was just, Tassadar was by all accounts a highly capable leader and had a powerful strategic and tactical mind, he just had some annoying morals.

[warty goblin]

No they were commanded by someone with a concience, who didn't believe BURNING THE WORLDS of INNOCENT BYSTANDERS, in the name of their war was just, Tassadar was by all accounts a highly capable leader and had a powerful strategic and tactical mind, he just had some annoying morals.

... because feeding even more worlds of the innocent to the Zerg is clearly the height of morality. Either he wasn't able to figure out what the Zerg were capable of doing, which makes him a moron, or he went ahead and stopped slagging zergified worlds anyway, which still makes him a moron. A moral moron, but still a moron. "By all accounts" just doesn't IMHO stand up to the evidence here.

My problem I suppose is that I no longer buy 'by all accounts' argument with regard to fictional characters, since they hardly ever are actually shown to be as good as they are supposed to be. There are exceptions of course, Honor Harrington comes to mind, but they are few and far between.

[Eita]

"Morality is a hindrance to battle."

~Unknown Imperial Commander

As for the numbers, I calculated this, and, there are not even 2 million SMurfs running around seeing that only two chapters are major deviants (Black Templars and Space Wolves. I imagine that such a huge disregard for the Codex Astartes would be noted).

[Lord_Asmodeus]

... because feeding even more worlds of the innocent to the Zerg is clearly the height of morality. Either he wasn't able to figure out what the Zerg were capable of doing, which makes him a moron, or he went ahead and stopped slagging zergified worlds anyway, which still makes him a moron. A moral moron, but still a moron. "By all accounts" just doesn't IMHO stand up to the evidence here.

My problem I suppose is that I no longer buy 'by all accounts' argument with regard to fictional characters, since they hardly ever are actually shown to be as good as they are supposed to be. There are exceptions of course, Honor Harrington comes to mind, but they are few and far between.

You even played Starcraft, like EVER? or read the books? The worlds they "bombed" were for the most part worlds that had almost no zerg on them, they bombed ALL THE WORLDS WITH ANY ZERG, I mean they knew what the zerg were capable of, he just didn't think it was worth bombing every world with even a minor zerg presence to rubble was the right thing to do, he didn't miscalculate or anything, the fact is he was doing well until the zerg found out about Auir and he sacrificed himself to save his homeworld, really it came down to helping the humans or killing them, and the latter choice was working until consequences he couldn't have forseen because people HE DIDN'T KNOW EXISTED interfered (see: Dark Templar) And "by all accounts" includes the writers of the books and the makers of the games, he was a good military commander and he was doing well until some extraordinary circumstances ****ed up his plans, as they oft times do in stories.

[Eita]

They only glassed two worlds, and those were pretty far gone.

But... Yeah. Tassadar is an idiot. He didn't glass Char or Tarsonis or any other major Zerg world. However, in that last cutscene, he is badass incarnate.

[Deadmeat.GW]

No, just no. The average space marine chapter does NOT have 10,000 members! each chapter only has a few more than 1,000 gene-seeds, meaning that it is impossible no matter how far they deviate from the codex, and the majority of SM do follow the codex, doesn't it say so right in the SM codex?

Hum, anyone remember that the SMurfs actually accounted during the Horus Heresy for OVER HALF of ALL the SM's there were?

And that the legion was broken up in roughly 1000 marines strong chapters, this being just the standard 10 companies?
That the Ultra Marines themselves technically have 1000 marines in those 10 companies but have the biggest non-human support organisation of any chapter in existance?
Yet their support which is in the fluff about 50% marines and 50% volunteers is still set-up to handle the support for ...the Legion of the Ultra Marines?

Anyone care to see what the traditional ratio of fighting men to support people is?
3 to 1 in favour of support seems to be a oft quoted number.
Lets assume we are talking 3 to 1 in favour of the actual fighting men, the Space Wolves legion was one of the smallest legions with a mere 6,000+ odd combat troops, not counting Wolf Priests, Iron Priests, anti-tank crews, tank crews, Thunderhawk crews...(Second smallest actually, the smallest one was one of the Traitor legions that was almost destroyed due to an accident).

Even the SMurfs don't actually follow the whole of the Codex Astartes due to changing circumstances, i.e. Tyranid kill-teams.

The Dark Angels are also not following the 1000 marines limit from the Codex Astartes...
Black Templars have rebuilt their strength to be about the same as their numbers were when they were a Legion btw., i.e. give or take 10,000+ fighting marines and then their supports.

Going from the rough numbers from the different fluffs the SM legions, not counting SMurfs were numbering as fighting men approximately a quarter of a million marines in standard positions (i.e. tactical, scout, assault and heavy support).

The SMurfs accounted for at least a quarter of a million marines in those positions alone and those were the numbers that were caught by the census.
The fluff keeps reminding people that whole fleets, the equivalent of current day chapters were send out and not seen again but given that the orders were to expand in specific directions and these are now said to be not part of the Empirium...

[Mr. Scaly]

They only glassed two worlds, and those were pretty far gone.

But... Yeah. Tassadar is an idiot. He didn't glass Char or Tarsonis or any other major Zerg world. However, in that last cutscene, he is badass incarnate.

He didn't glass Char because the Khalis crystal, Zeratul and his followers were on the surface. By the time Zasz was killed and Tassadar got Zeratul out of there, the zerg were far too entrenched to be driven off. Any protoss fleet that approached would have been swarmed the minute they dropped out of warp. And as for Tarsonis...there were still billions of humans living on it when the protoss fleet got there. Say what you will about Tassadar, he was not genocidal.

[warty goblin]

You even played Starcraft, like EVER? or read the books? The worlds they "bombed" were for the most part worlds that had almost no zerg on them, they bombed ALL THE WORLDS WITH ANY ZERG, I mean they knew what the zerg were capable of, he just didn't think it was worth bombing every world with even a minor zerg presence to rubble was the right thing to do, he didn't miscalculate or anything, the fact is he was doing well until the zerg found out about Auir and he sacrificed himself to save his homeworld, really it came down to helping the humans or killing them, and the latter choice was working until consequences he couldn't have forseen because people HE DIDN'T KNOW EXISTED interfered (see: Dark Templar) And "by all accounts" includes the writers of the books and the makers of the games, he was a good military commander and he was doing well until some extraordinary circumstances ****ed up his plans, as they oft times do in stories.

1) I played Starcraft, right up to the point where I realized that I no longer gave a crap about either the characters or the gameplay, or about 8/10ths of the way through the Terran campaign. No, actually I stopped giving a crap by the third mission, but Starcraft was the only game I had handy that would work on my laptop, and I didn't have my desktop. Then I returned to Dawn of War, which actually made me feel like a commander making relevant tactical decisions again.

2) No, I have not read the Starcraft books, since I don't care about Starcraft at all.

3) Nevertheless I think my point stands, I was told Tassedar stopped using the only action shown to be effective against the Zerg. I concluded he was a moron. Now I'm told that they only glassed two worlds, or they glassed a ton. Once the Starcraftians decide how glass-happy the Protoss were, I'll feel I can actually pass judgement.

[lipe44]

Starcraft > To any other game

Therefore

Stacraft's units > Than any other units game

[Lord_Asmodeus]

1) I played Starcraft, right up to the point where I realized that I no longer gave a crap about either the characters or the gameplay, or about 8/10ths of the way through the Terran campaign. No, actually I stopped giving a crap by the third mission, but Starcraft was the only game I had handy that would work on my laptop, and I didn't have my desktop. Then I returned to Dawn of War, which actually made me feel like a commander making relevant tactical decisions again.

2) No, I have not read the Starcraft books, since I don't care about Starcraft at all.

3) Nevertheless I think my point stands, I was told Tassedar stopped using the only action shown to be effective against the Zerg. I concluded he was a moron. Now I'm told that they only glassed two worlds, or they glassed a ton. Once the Starcraftians decide how glass-happy the Protoss were, I'll feel I can actually pass judgement.

No, your point does not stand as that was not the "only thing that worked" on zerg, it was just the way they handled it because they didn't want to lose troops, Tassadar's higher ups didn't care about humans, they only cared about killing the zerg and they felt if the Terrans were added to the Zerg gene-pool then it would turn out bad, Tassadar wasn't willing to kill yet more innocents if he didn't have to and could actually you know, HELP, as opposed to glassing human planets with zerg on them, and again it worked fairly well until Char and Auir. The fact that you didn't play the game or read the books long enough to hear all the story lends no real credence to your opinions as you obviously don't have the first hand knowledge, sorry.

[TK-Squared]

Note on a previous comment that stated something along the lines of "See how they function when they have a psi-blade through their heart":
Space Marine's have two hearts, just incase a psi-blade is rended through one of them.

Note on invisible units: Space Marines have greatly enhanced hearing and are capable of filtering out sounds.

[warty goblin]

No, your point does not stand as that was not the "only thing that worked" on zerg, it was just the way they handled it because they didn't want to lose troops, Tassadar's higher ups didn't care about humans, they only cared about killing the zerg and they felt if the Terrans were added to the Zerg gene-pool then it would turn out bad, Tassadar wasn't willing to kill yet more innocents if he didn't have to and could actually you know, HELP, as opposed to glassing human planets with zerg on them, and again it worked fairly well until Char and Auir. The fact that you didn't play the game or read the books long enough to hear all the story lends no real credence to your opinions as you obviously don't have the first hand knowledge, sorry.

I'm quite aware that my lack of first-hand knowledge does my arguments no favors, I just don't feel it worth the disgusting amount of time it would take to go back and beat Starcraft to gain first hand knowledge. There's other games I'd rather play, other books that I'd rather read.

Which is why I go off of what other people tell me, and what I'm reading you telling me is that Protoss glassing of planets worked, then they stopped and were OK for a while, until they were royally screwed (please correct me if I'm missreading you here). Hence I conclude that they started with a functional plan, then tried something else, at the behest of Tassedar, which stopped working and got their homeworld overrun.

I then place myself in the seat of a guy at a review board looking over the actions taken leading up to the Protoss defeat, and see a change from a functional to a non-functional (since it clearly failed) strategy. The person who implimented the new, failed, strategy was Tassedar. Hence Tassedar is a strategic failure. QED.

[lipe44]

Actually the plan did nothing to slow down the Zerg. When the Overmind saw the protoss fleet he saw that as an opportunity to discover more about the Protoss so he retreated to see what would happen next.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I'm quite aware that my lack of first-hand knowledge does my arguments no favors, I just don't feel it worth the disgusting amount of time it would take to go back and beat Starcraft to gain first hand knowledge. There's other games I'd rather play, other books that I'd rather read.

Which is why I go off of what other people tell me, and what I'm reading you telling me is that Protoss glassing of planets worked, then they stopped and were OK for a while, until they were royally screwed (please correct me if I'm missreading you here). Hence I conclude that they started with a functional plan, then tried something else, at the behest of Tassedar, which stopped working and got their homeworld overrun.

I then place myself in the seat of a guy at a review board looking over the actions taken leading up to the Protoss defeat, and see a change from a functional to a non-functional (since it clearly failed) strategy. The person who implimented the new, failed, strategy was Tassedar. Hence Tassedar is a strategic failure. QED.

It didn't CAUSE his planet to be overrun, it was this event and the event which caused this (which wasn't caused by him) which really threw a wrench in his plans, if Zeratul hadn't perma-killed the cerebrate and pretty much told the Hive Mind where Auir was, it could have worked out well for everyone (except the Zerg, but noone cares about galaxy-munching monsters)

[Mr. Scaly]

(except the Zerg, but noone cares about galaxy-munching monsters)

On behalf of myself, I object to that. :-P

Seriously though, the protoss proved that they could beat zerg hives without glassing planets. I think it was mission three of the protoss campaign where you take on and destroy two hives, saving that area. Of course it wasn't a complete brood but that's a good start.