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Tyger
2008-01-22, 10:52 AM
I picked up this feat at my team mates urging, and am at a bit of a loss when it will be really effective. For the record, I do not have Arcane Reach, or any of the other means of making a Touch spell into a "greater than Touch" range spell (unless anyone knows a way to do this that doesn't rely on a Prestige Class).

Spells restricted to are: PHB, PHBII and Spell Compendium.

Character is currently an 11th level arcane caster (Wiz7 / Mage of Arcane Order 4). Other metamagic feats include Extend, Empower and the annoying Cooperative Metamagic. I have a Greater Rod of Quicken to assist with fast casting too.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-22, 10:58 AM
Phantasmal killer. You, in effect, get weird as a 7th level spell. :smallbiggrin: Now granted, you have a couple levels to go before you can pull that off, but it's something to keep in mind.

Duke of URL
2008-01-22, 11:00 AM
I like feeblemind, myself. Especially if you can pump the save DC really, really high -- arcane casters take a -4 penalty to saves, which completely offsets the -4 to DC for secondary targets.

Also, you may want to consider buffing spells that have a range larger than touch or personal -- essentially a "mass" version of the base buffing spell.

At higher levels, get Archmage levels for Arcane Reach, and apply Chain Spell to touch spells as well.

Douglas
2008-01-22, 11:18 AM
For offense, pretty much any single target spell works, though the reduction in damage or save DC is annoying. Chained Dispel Magic is brokenly good, but only against creatures that rely on lots of magic items (like PCs).

For buffs, Greater Magic Weapon is a good one. I went through putting together a truly massive buff list recently for a PbP campaign here, and Chain Spell was a major part of it. A lot of the spells on this list are cleric only (we have a cleric as well as a wizard), touch range (they both have arcane/divine reach), or short duration (fixed by Persistent Spell through Incantatrix cheese), but you should still be able to find a few useful buffs in it. The final list is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3685789&postcount=82).

Touch spells can be given range without a PrC by the Reach Spell metamagic feat, but that adds another +2 spell slot level adjustment.

Tyger
2008-01-22, 11:22 AM
Maybe I needed to be more clear.... :smallsmile:

No gaining reach with a PrC. So Archmage is out.
Character is 11th level, so max 6th level spells. Which means, with Chain Spell, max of 3rd or lower can be implemented.

Though Reach Spell feat is a good idea for later on. Thanks Douglas!

Any other ideas?

Duke of URL
2008-01-22, 11:28 AM
Actually, with Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic, you can reduce the cost of Chain Spell to +1 for your Arcane Thesis spell.

Tyger
2008-01-22, 11:39 AM
Actually, with Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic, you can reduce the cost of Chain Spell to +1 for your Arcane Thesis spell.

True, for one spell only of course. But that is a good point. And Easy Metamagic might just be worth it for that 12th level feat... though Reach Spell is looking more and more like it. :)

mostlyharmful
2008-01-22, 02:21 PM
This is just core that you have the level to cast, splatbooks try anything with a ranged touch, both buff and debuff. Direct damage and battlefield control are usually a waste

1st - Charm person, Ray of Enfeeblement (Infact lets save time and just say pretty much allllll rays.:smallcool: ), Reduce Person, Enlarge Person, Cause Fear

2nd - Daze Monster, Hideous Laughter, SHATTER, Command Undead, Blindness/Deafness,

3rd - Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Suggestion,

Fax Celestis
2008-01-22, 02:27 PM
I'm a personal fan of chained greater magic weapon, myself.

Ganurath
2008-01-22, 02:34 PM
Wait... are the spells in Complete Arcane options? Between your PrC of choice and some of your feats (including Chain Spell) it seems obvious the book is at your disposal.

wormwood
2008-01-22, 02:36 PM
My only advice... learn Spectral Hand. It is your friend. Learn it and love it.

Tyger
2008-01-22, 02:40 PM
This is just core that you have the level to cast, splatbooks try anything with a ranged touch, both buff and debuff. Direct damage and battlefield control are usually a waste

1st - Charm person, Ray of Enfeeblement (Infact lets save time and just say pretty much allllll rays.:smallcool: ), Reduce Person, Enlarge Person, Cause Fear

2nd - Daze Monster, Hideous Laughter, SHATTER, Command Undead, Blindness/Deafness,

3rd - Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Suggestion,

Yeah, Shatter and Hideous laughter both sprung to mind for me too... that could be nasty. Granted, a Chain Shatter might upset the rest of the party. Sure, that attacking force doesn't have weapons any more, but now we can't loot said weapons off of their bodies!

As for Reduce / Enlarge Person though, why not just use the "Mass" versions of those?

The jury is still out on whether or not Chain works with Ray spells... that's one I have to run by the DM.

Chained Suggestion did look nice, but when you factor in that the Mass version of Suggestion doesn't impose the +4 to all saves that the Chained version does, at the same level...

And Chain Dispel Magic is nice indeed. Situational, but darned nice.

And yeah Fax, that Chained Greater Magic Weapon does look nice, but something tells me that is going to come more into its own later on. For now, it would be a tad painful to use one of my two daily 6th level spells to give folks +2 weapons. I think they have those already. :) Now, at 20th level, that changes dramatically. Everyone can spend their gold on non-numeric enhancements, and then bam! +5 on top for free... for 20 hours a day!


Wait... are the spells in Complete Arcane options? Between your PrC of choice and some of your feats (including Chain Spell) it seems obvious the book is at your disposal.

The spells within are not permitted, unless they also appear in the SpC, and then its the SpC versions thereof that take precedence.


My only advice... learn Spectral Hand. It is your friend. Learn it and love it.

Not sure this one works. If it did, that would indeed be terrifying. First off, the range of the actual spell doesn't change, they are still Touch spells. Secondly, it only works with level 4 and under spells. Which would mean you could only deliver level 1 spells Chained up. Now there are a couple nice ones there, but probably not worth all that effort.

mostlyharmful
2008-01-22, 02:42 PM
Wait... are the spells in Complete Arcane options? Between your PrC of choice and some of your feats (including Chain Spell) it seems obvious the book is at your disposal.

If so add all the "Orb of" spells, some of them are overpowered so your DM may ban them after a while when combined with Chain:smallredface: . I know I've already said don't bother with direct damage but the Orb line are often worth it, No saving throw, No SR, secondary effects???? Woooo!

2nd - Phantasmal Assialants

3rd - Bands of Steel (brilliant as targets Ref)

Edit: to the above, i'm somewhat used to using Sorcs, hence using chain to cut down on spells known.:smallredface:

Fax Celestis
2008-01-22, 02:44 PM
Well, chained greater magic weapon coupled with extended cloud of knives gives you a free ranged dagger attack every round with a magical dagger that uses your caster level + your casting stat as your attack bonus. Further, you can cast those two followed closely by something like smiting combust (chained if you have the slot!). Now you can zing a magical dagger as a free action that explodes when it hits its target and sets them on fire.

It's not terribly powerful, but damn is it fun.

Tyger
2008-01-22, 02:50 PM
OK, acting on some of the suggestions here, I compiled a list of all Chain Spell available spells between 1st and 3rd level, from the sources listed. Some of these look interersting. I did not include the Ray spells, as its not 100% certain that they are Chainable.

LEVEL ONE
Backbiter
Blood Wind
Burning Rage
Cause Fear
Charm Person
Distract
Distract Assailant
Enlarge Person
Ice Dagger
Incite
Inhibit
Kelgore’s Fire Bolt
Nerveskitter
Orb of X, Lesser
Reduce Person
Slide
Sonic Blast
Stand
Whelm

LEVEL TWO
Battering Ram
Black Karma Curse
Blast of Force
Blinding Color Surge
Blindness / Deafness
Bonefiddle
Command Undead
Curse of Impending Blades
Daze Monster
Delusions of Grandeur
Dessicating Bubble
Earthbind
Electric Loop
Entice Gift
Ice Knife
Insight of Good Fortune
Levitate
Melf’s Acid Arrow
Mindless Rage
Phantasmal Assailants
Rainbow Beam (might be a ray)
Rebuke
Scale Weakening
Shatter
Slide Greater
Snake’s Swiftness
Stay the Hand
Stolen Breath
Swim
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
Vertigo

THIRD LEVEL SPELLS
Alter Fortune
Bands of Steel
Curse of Arrow Attraction
Dispel Magic
Disrupt Undead, Greater
Energy Surge
Energy Vulnerability
Eradicate Earth
Halt
Halt Undead
Hesitate
Hold Person
Icelance
Keen Edge
Magic Weapon Greater
Manyjaws
Melf’s Unicorn Arrow
Miser’s Envy
Rage
Resonating Bolt
Sound Lance
Spell Vulnerability
Suggestion
Suppress Breath Weapon
Undead Torch
Unluck
Vertigo Field

Some of these look really nice, but I have to wait until I get back to my books to really check them out.

wormwood
2008-01-22, 02:50 PM
Not sure this one works. If it did, that would indeed be terrifying. First off, the range of the actual spell doesn't change, they are still Touch spells. Secondly, it only works with level 4 and under spells. Which would mean you could only deliver level 1 spells Chained up. Now there are a couple nice ones there, but probably not worth all that effort.

Even if you're not using it for the chain spells, you should be using it for everything else. In my opinion, it's a very good substitute for the Archmage ability or Arcane Reach... at least until higher levels.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-22, 02:50 PM
Also, if you take some levels in Spellwarp Sniper, chained spellwarped great thunderclap is great. Everyone you hit automatically trips (as spellwarping removes any Reflex saves), and has to Fort save or be deaf and Will save or be stunned.

EDIT: OH! Chained ice knife is great. Even if you miss, it still grenades.

mostlyharmful
2008-01-22, 02:58 PM
Once you hit level 13 try out chained Enerveration, totally destroies Encounters:smallbiggrin: That's when the feat stars to shine.

Keld Denar
2008-01-22, 03:03 PM
Also, if you take some levels in Spellwarp Sniper, chained spellwarped great thunderclap is great. Everyone you hit automatically trips (as spellwarping removes any Reflex saves), and has to Fort save or be deaf and Will save or be stunned.

EDIT: OH! Chained ice knife is great. Even if you miss, it still grenades.

Chained Spellwarped Frost Breath is better. Autodaze everyone around you for a round with a touch attack. Very hot.

I see you have Nerveskitter in your list. That is a very very nice one to chain. That and a motivate dex marshall in your party means you go first.

Is Heroics a short range or touch? I forget. That would be awesome too. You could grant everyone in your party the Improved Init feat for even more speedy goodness. All you need to do is recruit a Dread Commando and your whole party will be pushing +20 init bonuses before dex and d20 rolls. Game over mang, game over.

Reel On, Love
2008-01-22, 03:04 PM
Phantasmal killer. You, in effect, get weird as a 7th level spell. :smallbiggrin: Now granted, you have a couple levels to go before you can pull that off, but it's something to keep in mind.

Wow, that might just be the worst idea ever. What goes well with this metamagic, which adds targets but gives -4 DC? The spell that requires them to fail TWO saves for it to have an effect! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PAR-TAY

[QUOTE=Duke of URL;3820992]I like feeblemind, myself. Especially if you can pump the save DC really, really high -- arcane casters take a -4 penalty to saves, which completely offsets the -4 to DC for secondary targets./QUOTE]

And you're fighting multiple arcane casters grouped together how often?


You want to use Chain Spell in a way that will negate its drawbacks. That means no damage spells (damage gets halved) and no saving-throw-permitting spells (-4 DC is bad).

What does this leave? Buffs and no-save single-target effects. As Fax mentioned, Greater Magic Weapon is a good one, letting you boost the enhancement bonus of everybody's weapon (they'll never need to buy more than a +5 again). If you're worried about the spell slot, ask them to split a Pearl of Power VI between them; it's cheaper than upgrading their swords.

In core, there isn't too much else until you get Arcane Reach from Archmage. Maze would be a good one, but it's too high level. Complete Arcane has a couple of things, I think--Burning Blood works; it has a save, but the save is made every round, so lots of chances to fail.

Gorbash
2008-01-22, 03:07 PM
Spells restricted to are: PHB, PHBII and Spell Compendium.

Lol, what else is there? :D

Saph
2008-01-22, 03:14 PM
My personal favourite is greater magic weapon combined with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell (from the MiC). Costs 14,000 gold, but that gives you two more uses of Chain Spell per day and buffed weapons for everyone, for the price of one third-level spell slot. Much more cost-effective than a 6th-level Pearl of Power.

Once my wizard hit 12th-level, I started using this at the beginning of every adventuring day. "Okay, everyone, pick your two primary weapons. They're now +3 for the next 12 hours. Have fun!"

If you're having trouble using up the rod's remaining charges, add Keen Edge to all their weapons too.

I was planning to eventually get Reach Spell and combine it with the metamagic rod to chain Spiderskin and Heroism onto everyone as well. Never got the chance, unfortunately . . .

- Saph

Chronos
2008-01-22, 03:28 PM
Granted, a Chain Shatter might upset the rest of the party. Sure, that attacking force doesn't have weapons any more, but now we can't loot said weapons off of their bodies!It depends on how you use it. There are a lot of things which don't matter as loot, but which are vitally important during an encounter. Shatter an enemy priest's holy symbol, to seriously restrict his spell choices. Or shatter any spellcaster's spell component pouch: the gemstones and such are still recoverable as loot, but they're scattered across the floor. If you've got Detect Magic or Arcane Sight running, you can just shatter whatever isn't magical. Shatter the guy's belt buckle, so his pants fall down. If your DM lets you, shatter just the armor straps on his armor. Shatter things which are magical, but which you wouldn't be able to use anyway (Unholy Angelbane Lifestealer axe, with an all-good party? No thanks). Shatter structural elements of the area where you're fighting. Shatter the vial of alchemical fire he's about to throw at you. The list goes on.

Duke of URL
2008-01-22, 03:32 PM
And you're fighting multiple arcane casters grouped together how often?

Depends on the DM. All choices are situational -- Chain Spell itself is pretty limited (buffs only) in situations where you don't get groups of opponents very often.

Besides, if you get the drop on a group of opponents, you don't have to figure out which ones are the spellcasters, just hit 'em all. The arcane casters, even if secondary targets, have save penalty that offsets the DC penalty, but any caster is still subject to the effects, even if they're WIS-based:



The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently.


Note that it says "cast spells", not INT- or CHA-based spells, nor arcane spells. It eliminates the special abilities of anyone who needs to communicate in some form (e.g., Bard, Marshal). Et cetera.

It's very, very useful, and if you're a MAD-ish caster who has pumped the DC pretty high, well worth the effort to try and cripple the entire opposing party with one shot.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-22, 04:04 PM
Chained chain missile could be interesting.

Ganurath
2008-01-22, 05:22 PM
It depends on how you use it. There are a lot of things which don't matter as loot, but which are vitally important during an encounter. Shatter an enemy priest's holy symbol, to seriously restrict his spell choices. Or shatter any spellcaster's spell component pouch: the gemstones and such are still recoverable as loot, but they're scattered across the floor. If you've got Detect Magic or Arcane Sight running, you can just shatter whatever isn't magical. Shatter the guy's belt buckle, so his pants fall down. If your DM lets you, shatter just the armor straps on his armor. Shatter things which are magical, but which you wouldn't be able to use anyway (Unholy Angelbane Lifestealer axe, with an all-good party? No thanks). Shatter structural elements of the area where you're fighting. Shatter the vial of alchemical fire he's about to throw at you. The list goes on.Shatter the support beams in the BBEG's escape tunnel. Shatter the foundations of the villain's castle. Once you're a high enough level, planeshift to Mechanus and apply liberal ammounts of chaos. Shatter the siege engines of the invading army, piece by piece if need be. As you said, the list goes on, and ends with Shatterstorm FTW.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-22, 05:46 PM
I picked up this feat at my team mates urging, and am at a bit of a loss when it will be really effective. For the record, I do not have Arcane Reach, or any of the other means of making a Touch spell into a "greater than Touch" range spell (unless anyone knows a way to do this that doesn't rely on a Prestige Class).

Spells restricted to are: PHB, PHBII and Spell Compendium.

Character is currently an 11th level arcane caster (Wiz7 / Mage of Arcane Order 4). Other metamagic feats include Extend, Empower and the annoying Cooperative Metamagic. I have a Greater Rod of Quicken to assist with fast casting too.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

I say Metamagic Reach is better than Chain Metamagic. You can buy Lesser or normal Metamagic Rod of Chain (cost a bit though).
This would give less Slot adjustment.

Currently, I cast every morning Reached G. M. W to give party (2 members get both weapons affected) +3 weapons at level 11 using the Metamasgic Rod: Chain. I have a Wu jen who is Specialized in Metal giving me +2 caster (there are too few metal spells).

As an aside:
I'm thinking of Chaining Decapitating Scarf when I get 7th level spells. Sure, they get a Save +4 (besides primary target), but the chance to cut all their heads off rules! And I do damage if make save (which is good because +2 caster).
I'll have to buy the upgrade for Metamagic rod though.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-22, 08:53 PM
Currently, I cast every morning Reached G. M. W to give party (2 members get both weapons affected) +3 weapons at level 11 using the Metamasgic Rod: Chain. I have a Wu jen who is Specialized in Metal giving me +2 caster (there are too few metal spells).


You don't need to apply Reach Spell to Greater Magic Weapon--it already has a range of close. :smile:

Snadgeros
2008-01-22, 09:35 PM
Once you get yourself a 7th level spell slot, try out some chained enervation. It's such cheesy goodness. 1d4 negative levels for ALL of you! No save! Muahahahaha!