Improved Evasion- Worth it?

[Rift_Wolf]

I've currently got a Scout 5/Thief-Acrobat 4, and wondered what to take for the tenth level. At the moment I'm aiming to get into Exemplar at 11th level so I can get Skill Mastery on Hide/Move Silently.
If I take a level of Scout, I get +1 BAB, +1 to all saves and Flawless Stride. If I take a level of Acrobat, I get an extra use of Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion.
Is Improved Evasion worth more than +1 BAB and +1 to all saves?

[Jannex]

As much as I love Improved Evasion, it pains me to say that the answer to your question is "probably not." I don't play casters much, but from what I've observed, spells with Reflex saves are usually the least scary of the "save-or-X" spells in a caster's arsenal--and Reflex is already your highest save. Improved Evasion does nothing for you unless you fail a save, a circumstance that you should be trying to avoid anyway. Taking your next level in Scout, which increases all your base saves, actually does more for you toward that goal. Not to mention the fact that, when you're running a character with 3/4 BAB who does any sort of combat, every point of that BAB is precious.

[Chronos]

I agree, and for essentially the same reasons. Improved Evasion is nice if you can get it for free, but plain ordinary Evasion is where the real goodness comes in.

[Curmudgeon]

If you want a better idea of what various Rogue special abilities will be worth to you going forward, take a look at Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, pages 80-81). I love Skill Mastery because Savvy Rogue lets me "take 12", and Crippling Strike is nifty because Savvy Rogue makes it work even against targets immune to sneak attack.

If you're going to play into Epic levels, a lot of otherwise questionable special abilities really start to shine. Slippery Mind lets your Epic Rogue take Dexterous Fortitude and Dexterous Will -- and suddenly, poor saves aren't a worry.

[the_tick_rules]

i'd take improved evasion, for only a one level dip it can save ya butt.

[Ganurath]

If you want a better idea of what various Rogue special abilities will be worth to you going forward, take a look at Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, pages 80-81). I love Skill Mastery because Savvy Rogue lets me "take 12", and Crippling Strike is nifty because Savvy Rogue makes it work even against targets immune to sneak attack.

If you're going to play into Epic levels, a lot of otherwise questionable special abilities really start to shine. Slippery Mind lets your Epic Rogue take Dexterous Fortitude and Dexterous Will -- and suddenly, poor saves aren't a worry.Yeah, we'll be sure to pass that on to someone who's running a Rogue, rather than a Scout/Thief Acrobat/Exemplar.

I support going for the extra level of scout. As Jannex said, increasing your save does more to solve the problem of failing at your best save than Improved Evasion does, and the extra BAB is precious. If my math is right, this will put you at +6: two attacks per round.

@V: Judging by how he mentioned BAB being a factor in the decision, I'm guessing that that if isn't the case.

[Yakk]

If you are using fractional BaB, then that problem goes away.

[serow]

Scout6 sounds like a better deal!

[Person_Man]

Ask your DM if you can retrain and dump your Scout's Evasion and pick up Spell Reflection (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a) instead. Then take another level of Thief-Acrobat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=3) for another use of Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion.

Also, what is this build doing for offense? You've got speed, Skills, and plenty of special defensive abilities. But what do you do when you want to hurt someone?

[UglyPanda]

You can't sacrifice evasion because evasion is one of the prerequisites for thief-acrobat. The reason you get improved evasion is that the writers assumed you still had evasion. You could shell out 25k for a ring of evasion, but that's quite pricey at that level.


Replaces: You do not gain evasion. (If you would later gain improved evasion as a special ability, you gain evasion instead.)

I'd personally take another level in scout. If you need defensive roll twice a day, you're either in a hard campaign or doing something wrong.

[Rift_Wolf]

Ask your DM if you can retrain and dump your Scout's Evasion and pick up Spell Reflection (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a) instead. Then take another level of Thief-Acrobat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=3) for another use of Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion.

Also, what is this build doing for offense? You've got speed, Skills, and plenty of special defensive abilities. But what do you do when you want to hurt someone?

When I want to hurt someone, I can take 10 on my Tumble to avoid them. I picked up Acrobatic Strike from PHBII which adds +4 to my strike when I tumble past someone. So, tumble around the enemy, strike for the skirmish damage. If I take a bad hit, tumble away and start throwing javelins. I have 14 STR so I can do a bit of damage, but really my character is movement based. We have damage dealers in the party in the form of an insanely powerful Paladin and fighter, as well as Stormlord Cleric, ranger/scout and rogue, so my job would be to get into flanking positions and pick off the strays. When I get into Exemplar I can outsneak the rogue and the scout.
As for bits I should pick up from books, I have core SRD, PHBII, Complete Adventurer and Unearthed Arcana. I have no desire to purchase any more books.

[Rift_Wolf]

Just a quick opinion poll- Should I go into Exemplar? Or would I be better off going for a bit more of a combat related class to boost my attacking?
My feats as they stand are Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Move Silently) (For the exemplar PrC), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Acrobatic Strike and Goad. I took the Weak Will flaw, and if anyone has any good ideas for another feat I can pick up for low cost I can take Meager Fortitude.
AC-wise I'm on 18 atm, that's my touch and ff (Have uncanny dodge), which goes up to 19 when I move 10ft, 22 fighting defensively and 25 for total defence. Bear in mind, as I haven't had chance to play this char yet, he's got no items to boost AC or stats atm; this is his AC naked, as it were.
I'd have to talk to my DM to see if I could get away with it, but Einhander (For the +2 Dodge), Giantbane (For large creature annoyance) or Shadow Striker (For the hiding) seemed good tactical feats to pick up, though as it stands I can't take them due to their prerequisites. While I meet all the prereqs, I wouldn't do so if I took a flaw and bumped my previous feats down (I'd have to check with my DM, as this is a character starting on 9th level, whether I could assume he retrained a lower level feat for the tactical one later.)
Seeing as my touch AC was so high when fighting defensively, my plan for fighting was to tumble round an enemy, skirmish damage, then next turn goad and tumble while fighting defensively. If the hit connects, tumble away and use my acrobatics to find a safe vantage point (Was thinking of the Wall Perch and Wall Jump trick from Complete Scoundrel) to attack with skirmish damage.
Anyone got thoughts?

[zaei]

Just a quick opinion poll- Should I go into Exemplar? Or would I be better off going for a bit more of a combat related class to boost my attacking?
My feats as they stand are Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Move Silently) (For the exemplar PrC), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Acrobatic Strike and Goad. I took the Weak Will flaw, and if anyone has any good ideas for another feat I can pick up for low cost I can take Meager Fortitude.
AC-wise I'm on 18 atm, that's my touch and ff (Have uncanny dodge), which goes up to 19 when I move 10ft, 22 fighting defensively and 25 for total defence. Bear in mind, as I haven't had chance to play this char yet, he's got no items to boost AC or stats atm; this is his AC naked, as it were.
I'd have to talk to my DM to see if I could get away with it, but Einhander (For the +2 Dodge), Giantbane (For large creature annoyance) or Shadow Striker (For the hiding) seemed good tactical feats to pick up, though as it stands I can't take them due to their prerequisites. While I meet all the prereqs, I wouldn't do so if I took a flaw and bumped my previous feats down (I'd have to check with my DM, as this is a character starting on 9th level, whether I could assume he retrained a lower level feat for the tactical one later.)
Seeing as my touch AC was so high when fighting defensively, my plan for fighting was to tumble round an enemy, skirmish damage, then next turn goad and tumble while fighting defensively. If the hit connects, tumble away and use my acrobatics to find a safe vantage point (Was thinking of the Wall Perch and Wall Jump trick from Complete Scoundrel) to attack with skirmish damage.
Anyone got thoughts?
Scout 5/TA 4, and you took Weak Will?! That's a -1 to will saves! I have a similar character (Scout 4/PsyWar 3), and I took Poor Reflexes and snagged Iron Will. Failing will saves makes you stop having fun =(

On Exemplar: You can do amusing things with Skill Artistry and Persuasive Performance ("Woah, I totally can't hear that guy walk, I should help him out", "Woah, that guy can train lions like a god... I wonder what he's like in the bedroom?", etc). I dunno how many levels I'd take in it.

If you're serious about sneaking around, another feat you might want to look at is Darkstalker, from Lords of Madness. It lets you sneak around things with sensory abilities that Hide and Move Silently wouldn't normally be effective against.

[Reel On, Love]

If you're a Scout/Thief-Acrobat/Exemplar, you are going to have to get used to not contributing in combat. One attack with a couple of dice of Skirmish damage will barely even be *noticed*. Some people are OK with what amounts to sitting fights out, but most aren't, not in practice.

Exemplar really sinks your combat ability. Taking the Skill Focus feat hurts, and the class basically doesn't help in combat. Quick Draw is also not worthwhile, since you can draw a weapon for free as part of a move action (and as a Scout, you'll be moving). The feat you should be setting your sights on, since you have archery feats, is Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot).

Goad is a terrible idea; you don't *want* enemies to come after you. Trade it in. As a side note, taking save-penalzing Flaws for a class whose Fort and Will saves are already dangerously low is a bad, bad move. Try Noncombatant, since you won't want to be in melee anyway, and Vulnerable.

Take note of the Improved Skirmish feat in the Complete Scoundrel. That's a good one, and it counts as a Scout Bonus Feat. If you want to multiclass, I suggest adding Ranger and taking the Swift Hunter feat. A Greater-Manyshot-using Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish has AB problems, so you'll need to focus on that, but gets very nice damage.

[de-trick]

id go with exemplar and get a ring of evasion to get improved evasion, so you get both.

[zaei]

id go with exemplar and get a ring of evasion to get improved evasion, so you get both.

Evasion + Evasion != Improved Evasion. They don't stack.

[Rift_Wolf]

If you're a Scout/Thief-Acrobat/Exemplar, you are going to have to get used to not contributing in combat. One attack with a couple of dice of Skirmish damage will barely even be *noticed*. Some people are OK with what amounts to sitting fights out, but most aren't, not in practice.

Exemplar really sinks your combat ability. Taking the Skill Focus feat hurts, and the class basically doesn't help in combat. Quick Draw is also not worthwhile, since you can draw a weapon for free as part of a move action (and as a Scout, you'll be moving). The feat you should be setting your sights on, since you have archery feats, is Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot).

Goad is a terrible idea; you don't *want* enemies to come after you. Trade it in. As a side note, taking save-penalzing Flaws for a class whose Fort and Will saves are already dangerously low is a bad, bad move. Try Noncombatant, since you won't want to be in melee anyway, and Vulnerable.

Take note of the Improved Skirmish feat in the Complete Scoundrel. That's a good one, and it counts as a Scout Bonus Feat. If you want to multiclass, I suggest adding Ranger and taking the Swift Hunter feat. A Greater-Manyshot-using Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish has AB problems, so you'll need to focus on that, but gets very nice damage.

Our DM has ruled out psionics, but Manyshot would be a good feat to have. I wanted to use thrown weapons a) because Halflings get bonuses to thrown weapons and b) you can add your strength bonus to them (Scouts don't get Composite bow proficiency). I took Quick Draw so I could use the full attack with javelins, but seeing as I'm a scout and so will never use the full attack feature...

Seeing as this characters still in beta, I'm thinking of rewriting it to a Rogue/Thief-Acrobat and forgetting about Exemplar seeing as our games are pretty kick in the door (A skill point in Gather Info is a skill point wasted in our group) and going for a more martial prestige class for tenth level (One with low bab prereqs). I want Acrobat as a prestige class though as it fits my character idea; someone who is always on the look-out for the high ground and frustrating enemies with his mobility.
I'll go back to the drawing board a bit and rethink the feats and bits.

[zaei]

Our DM has ruled out psionics, but Manyshot would be a good feat to have. I wanted to use thrown weapons a) because Halflings get bonuses to thrown weapons and b) you can add your strength bonus to them (Scouts don't get Composite bow proficiency). I took Quick Draw so I could use the full attack with javelins, but seeing as I'm a scout and so will never use the full attack feature...

Seeing as this characters still in beta, I'm thinking of rewriting it to a Rogue/Thief-Acrobat and forgetting about Exemplar seeing as our games are pretty kick in the door (A skill point in Gather Info is a skill point wasted in our group) and going for a more martial prestige class for tenth level (One with low bab prereqs). I want Acrobat as a prestige class though as it fits my character idea; someone who is always on the look-out for the high ground and frustrating enemies with his mobility.
I'll go back to the drawing board a bit and rethink the feats and bits.

Greater Manyshot isn't a psionic feat, it just happened to appear in the XPH. There is no such thing as Composite Bow Proficiency; if you are proficient in a type of bow, you are also proficient in it's composite version. See Composite Shortbow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shortbowComposite) for an example.

If you are looking to rebuild as a rogue with a more martial bent, you want to look at the Nightsong Enforcer PrC, and possibly the Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6).

Also, Elusive Target from Complete Warrior sounds up your alley.