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Frosty
2008-01-22, 08:40 PM
Anything with less than 151 HP is stunned for multiple rounds with no save. In a fight, this basically means death. This isn't save or die. It's just DIE. If you're playing a game standard 25 point buy, it's very difficult to get to 150 HP for the non-frontline classes, unless you devote a whole bunch of money into increasing your con.

If you have a party fighting aginst a Pit Fiend and some summoned friend and your party anywhere from level 15 to level 18, I'm not sure if it's even possible for your primary casters to reach 150 HP. With one standard action, your wizard is guaranteed to be out of the fight for 1d4 or 2d4 rounds. And the Pit Fiend can SPAM this ability while his friends deal with the party.

Does anyone else think this ability is overpowered in the hands of monsters?

Fax Celestis
2008-01-22, 08:43 PM
No, because spell resistance is allowed. The Power Words are one of the main reasons SR is worthwhile to obtain. Alternatively, a healthy dose of mind blank or something else that makes you immune to mind-affecting effects (or even just using something like spell turning) will render you invulnerable.

FinalJustice
2008-01-22, 08:46 PM
Power Word Stun? Try the Balor Dance of Doom. One Balor invokes his fellow partner, who proceeds to Blasphemy every freaking round, rending every nonevil foe dazed, no save, no HP limit, while the other Balor dances all over the party HPs.

Frosty
2008-01-22, 09:59 PM
At least Pit Fiends can't summon another Pit Fiend, thank god.

speaking of which, would you consider Blasphemy also not overpowered due to SR: Yes?

We're assuming that every party has access to SR, which is not always to case.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-22, 10:04 PM
At least Pit Fiends can't summon another Pit Fiend, thank god.

speaking of which, would you consider Blasphemy also not overpowered due to SR: Yes?

We're assuming that every party has access to SR, which is not always to case.

I would call it more overpowered than any of the Power Words. My preceding post was a bit misleading: the main balancing factor to the Power Word spells are that they are all mind-affecting, and that is an incredibly easy resistance or immunity to obtain.

FinalJustice
2008-01-22, 10:26 PM
Yeah, plus Power Word is just that, what the word says, not auto daze plus effects if your HD lag behind due to LA or CL is too high plus chance of sending any good outsiders back to their home plan and stick them there for 24 hours. Man, blasphemy is that overpowered.

Douglas
2008-01-22, 10:33 PM
No, the main balancing factor of the Power Words is the hp cap and that they're single target. At the level Power Word: Stun is first available, high hp front-line combatants stand a pretty good chance of already being immune, unless you inflict some damage first. Barbarians especially will easily have too much hp. Wizards can have Spell Turning or Mind Blank up, and even if it does work you've still got the rest of the party to deal with.

Blasphemy, on the other hand, is large (40' radius) AoE with no cap and no save. By itself, that is broken. At will on a Balor, it is absurdly broken.

Frosty
2008-01-22, 10:39 PM
As a DM< do you either let the Balor use Blasphemy less often, or do you NERF blasphemy to hell and then back (pun not intended)?

FinalJustice
2008-01-22, 10:51 PM
Yeah, plus Power Word is just that, what the word says, not auto daze plus effects if your HD lag behind due to LA or CL is too high plus chance of sending any good outsiders back to their home plan and stick them there for 24 hours. Man, blasphemy is that overpowered.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 01:12 AM
I just noticed something. Pit Fiends can't see invisible foes. Is this intentional or an oversight? See Invisibility is not one of tis SLAs. It does not have continuous True Seeing.

Demented
2008-01-23, 02:16 AM
You should be more concerned for why a Pit Fiend would be alone...

Superglucose
2008-01-23, 02:34 AM
I think as a DM it would be best to come up with a spell that protects against Blaspheme. Something like the way a Paladin's aura of courage protects a paladin from fear effects.

Douglas
2008-01-23, 06:59 AM
Greater Spell Immunity can already do the trick, but it's single-target, too short duration to have active all day, and absolutely must be cast in advance. Blasphemy is not broken because it's unbeatable, it's broken because it's unbeatable without specific advance preparation for exactly that one single spell.

Saph
2008-01-23, 07:10 AM
Power Word Stun isn't all that effective against the PCs. It knocks out one PC for a few rounds: that still leaves the rest of the party active. There are much worse 8th-level spells.

However, Power Word Stun is absolutely deadly against single large monsters. The routine is:

a) Party members go nova on monster, do all they can to reduce its HP.
b) After one or two rounds, arcanist uses power word stun.
c) Party surround now-helpless monster and gank it.
d) Monster dies.

At high levels, being stunned for 1d4-2d4 rounds is basically the same as death. Pretty much any CR 15-20 monster that isn't immune to mind-affecting and doesn't have good spell resistance can be killed by this combo. (Unfortunately, most high-level things do have either immunity to mind-affecting or good spell resistance, but hey, it'd be boring if it was too easy.)

- Saph

Keld Denar
2008-01-23, 09:04 AM
Occult Slayers are immune to PW:Stun :) I know, I play one, and it has paid off! It is a pretty nasty spell though.

Something a lot of people don't see is that Blasphemy is a sonic spell. It requires that you hear it. That means it can be blocked by a level 2 silence spell. Unfortunately, silence can be dispelled, but it does buy a round if the balor chooses to do this. It also cripples your casters unless they prep with Silent Spell, Metamagic Rods of Silence, or are Shadowcraft Mages. Still, it does disable Blasphemy.

I think 3rd Eye: Clarity allows the user to negate a daze effect once a day too. That'll at least buy off the first Blasphemy in a day. Better kill it quick.

I think the worst thing though, is applying a template that grants SLAs dependant on HD. Evolved Undead from LM grants this, and I think fiendish or something similar does too. The higher HD creatures can get Blasphemy as a SLA. Slap that on a creature that advances 4 HD/CR and its not hard to make a collosal monsterous centipede or 40hd zombie that can can autoTPK most EL appropriate parties. YAY broken CR system

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-23, 09:34 AM
Power Word Stun isn't all that bad. Any outsider who uses a power word (single target spell) to incapacitate a single party member ISN'T doing something else that's even worse, like taking a full round of attacks on the frontline fighters. Our party (10th level) recently met the glabrezu (CR 14) at the end of one of the chapters in SCAP. The glabrezu got to take exactly ONE action.

Round one:
Marshal wins init, gives everyone a move action (Myself and the Cleric move to flank)
I go next (K of C) and do 54 and 40 points of damage bypassing DR, dropping the glabrezu to 80 HP.
Glabrezu goes, hits me with PW: Stun. I'm out for 4 rounds.
Beguiler casts haste.
Cleric uses DM to burn turns and drop a quickened Blessings of the Righteous, takes his three attacks, and drops the glabrezu.

I only wish the beguiler had gone sooner so I could have gotten the Haste.

Was the party in serious trouble because of PW: Stun. Not really. I am however thankful that I showed the spell BotR to him before we encountered the glabrezu. If the cleric hadn't been able to bypass DR, then we might have had serious casualties.

Ethdred
2008-01-23, 09:40 AM
Occult Slayers are immune to PW:Stun :) I know, I play one, and it has paid off! It is a pretty nasty spell though.

Something a lot of people don't see is that Blasphemy is a sonic spell. It requires that you hear it. That means it can be blocked by a level 2 silence spell. Unfortunately, silence can be dispelled, but it does buy a round if the balor chooses to do this. It also cripples your casters unless they prep with Silent Spell, Metamagic Rods of Silence, or are Shadowcraft Mages. Still, it does disable Blasphemy.

But then, Silence itself cripples casters unless they have Silent Spell etc. Used right it can be very nasty

leperkhaun
2008-01-23, 09:42 AM
As a DM< do you either let the Balor use Blasphemy less often, or do you NERF blasphemy to hell and then back (pun not intended)?

Personally I wouldnt use the spell every round, but every couple rounds to keep the enemy stunned is just good tactics.

However I am of the mind that with certian Iconic critters (Balor and others) that it should not be easy....it should be one of those holygeeeez its a Balor, what are we going to do now. Those encounters shouldnt happen all of the time, but when it is time for it, it the players should not be "ehhh its just a balor lets kill it, loot it, and be done with it."

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 10:13 AM
Freedom of movement will save you. If you're a cleric with the Travel domain, you're effectively immune to Power Word Stun.

But yeah, that got used on me in my last campaign. I totally forgot about the Travel Domain power, so I sat there stunned, not realizing that I was immune to the effect.

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-01-23, 10:26 AM
Freedom of movement will save you. If you're a cleric with the Travel domain, you're effectively immune to Power Word Stun.


Freedom of Movement does not protect against Stun. Paralysis, yes. Grappling, yes. Fog spells, sure. Stunning, no.

(A Stun does not so much impede your movement as prevent you from taking actions in the first place, which Freedom of Movement doesn't protect against. A Paralyzed creature can still take actions, if they can do it without moving, aka, Still Spell metamagic. A Stunned creature can't do anything except count down rounds until it is not stunned.)

Likewise the Travel Domain power.

Stunning... hurts. :smallfrown:

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 10:40 AM
Freedom of Movement does not protect against Stun. Paralysis, yes. Grappling, yes. Fog spells, sure. Stunning, no.

(A Stun does not so much impede your movement as prevent you from taking actions in the first place, which Freedom of Movement doesn't protect against. A Paralyzed creature can still take actions, if they can do it without moving, aka, Still Spell metamagic. A Stunned creature can't do anything except count down rounds until it is not stunned.)

Likewise the Travel Domain power.

Stunning... hurts. :smallfrown:

I remember thinking that, and then I thought I read somewhere that it did work against stun. Can you double check the spell description of FoM? I think it specifically uses the word "stunned" in the spell description. I can't check from work.

If you're right, and there are no actual spells to protect against stun that a person is likely to have prepared, then I'm going to have to move to the "Power Word Stun is Overpowered" camp.

In the campaign where I got hit, luckily our Wizard hit me with Greater Dispel in the next round. I was the party cleric/warlock/eldritch disciple, so if I went down, the rest of the party was going to have a lot of problems. Two of them were already affected by Confusion, and I was the only one that could heal them.

Douglas
2008-01-23, 11:03 AM
Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) does not mention stunning, dazing, or any other condition that prevents actions rather than movement even once anywhere in the entire spell description. There are spells that protect against stunning, but I don't think any of them are in core, and the ones I know of are not usually easily available. Favor of the Martyr is a 4th level paladin spell, and Veil of Undeath is 8th level cleric and has the evil descriptor.

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-01-23, 11:08 AM
I remember thinking that, and then I thought I read somewhere that it did work against stun. Can you double check the spell description of FoM? I think it specifically uses the word "stunned" in the spell description. I can't check from work.

If you're right, and there are no actual spells to protect against stun that a person is likely to have prepared, then I'm going to have to move to the "Power Word Stun is Overpowered" camp.


From the D20SRD (Emphasis mine):



Freedom of Movement

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.



The line "move and attack normally" in the above is what causes a lot of people to think it prevents all effects that keep you from attacking and moving (taking it to the extreme that even dying is protected against, in some interpretations) but what I understand is the qualifier that Freedom of Movement allows you to move or attack normally only under the presence of magics that would hinder their execution. Magics that essentially remove you from the Initiative cycle (such as with Stun, Temporal Stasis, and Maze) are not protected.

In the Core spell list, there indeed does not appear to be any spell that immunizes you from Stuns entirely. Dispel Magic will remove the magical effect, and as mentioned above Mind Blank will prevent the Mind-Affecting Power Word: Stun spell from working, though not the Stunning Fist attack as well. (Since the Stunning Fist is an untyped attack, as far as I can tell, though this may be up for alternate interpretation.)

Multi-round stuns are murder, but compared to the other things a full caster can send at you? They are bad, but I'm not sure, compared to the other spells around those levels, that they stand head-and-shoulders above them in terms of lethality...

Frosty
2008-01-23, 01:21 PM
*imagines Advanced Pit Fiends or Balors with Quicken Spell-Like ability: PW: Stun or Blasphemy*

Now *that* would be broken.

Wait, so if someone has items and other things that boost their caster level a lot...they can just use blasphemy and auto-kill non-evil things? A Balor with beads and other CL-boosting stuff would be stupid.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 01:26 PM
*imagines Advanced Pit Fiends or Balors with Quicken Spell-Like ability: PW: Stun or Blasphemy*

Now *that* would be broken.

Wait, so if someone has items and other things that boost their caster level a lot...they can just use blasphemy and auto-kill non-evil things? A Balor with beads and other CL-boosting stuff would be stupid.

Guess what? PCs can do it too, and vs. evil foes with holy word.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 01:31 PM
And DMs would not allow it.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 01:35 PM
And DMs would not allow it.

Ah, but them's house rules! ZOMGONOES the game isn't perfect!

And you know there are some DMs out there who are so By-The-Book they'd let it slide.

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 01:46 PM
Holy Word + Good domain (boosts CL by 1) + Divine Spellpower (feat that can boost CL by up to 4) = Good Times.

Keld Denar
2008-01-23, 01:53 PM
*imagines Advanced Pit Fiends or Balors with Quicken Spell-Like ability: PW: Stun or Blasphemy*

Now *that* would be broken.

Wait, so if someone has items and other things that boost their caster level a lot...they can just use blasphemy and auto-kill non-evil things? A Balor with beads and other CL-boosting stuff would be stupid.

Beads of Karma shouldn't work for a Balor, since they are intended for divine casters. Double checking the items discription, however, makes it seem like the user only has to cast a divine spell to enable their use. A Balor has several SLAs that are only on the divine list (Blasphemy), so would a Balor be able to use it?

Also, there is a feat and a class in LoMadness that deals with stunning. I forget the feats name, but the prclass is called Topaz Guardian. They have the ability to make saves vs stuns that normally don't allow saves, so a Topaz Guardian would get a save vs a Balor Blasphemy or a PW:S. Its a neat class that not a lot of people know about. Kind of nichey, but all kinds of useful if you got it.

EDIT:
And its Good domain +1, Orange IWIN Stone +1, DSP +4, Bead of Karma +4 for CL +10 Holy Words.....are you good? No? Goodbye!

Hmmm, since Holy Word is Evocation, could a Shadowcraft Mage cast a shadow Holy Word if he could get it on his spell list? ScMs are notorious for jacking up their CL due to Earth Spell. A level 11 ScM could easily hit CL 22+ and just end all encounters they want in a heartbeat.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 02:16 PM
Is Holy word a level 8 or level 9 spell? If it's level 9, shadow evocation type stuff can't really duplicate it.

Keld Denar
2008-01-23, 02:25 PM
Is Holy word a level 8 or level 9 spell? If it's level 9, shadow evocation type stuff can't really duplicate it.

Its level 7, which means a normal wiz could dup it with Shades if he could get it on the wiz spell list.

HOWEVER, a ScM does NASTY things with level 1 Silent Image heightened to various levels with Heighten Spell and Earth Spell. Each spell level increase increases the CL by 1. So a ScM heightening a Silent Image from level 1 to level 8 (to dup a level 7 spell) would gain 7 CLs from this. Using things like Metamagic School Focus: Illusion or Practical Metamagic: Heighten would extend past that. Thats why they call Killer Gnome.....Killer Gnome.

Draz74
2008-01-23, 02:27 PM
Is Holy word a level 8 or level 9 spell? If it's level 9, shadow evocation type stuff can't really duplicate it.

Level 7, actually. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm)

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 02:35 PM
Holy Word is what makes level 7 spells worth getting.

Chronos
2008-01-23, 02:57 PM
It should also be noted that Holy Word and its kin is "Duration: Instantaneous", so the ill effects won't be subject to dispelling.

Those spells were much more sane in 3.0, when they affected fixed numbers of HD, not dependant on caster level.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 03:20 PM
Should DM houserule Blasphemy and Holy Word to have CL caps? Perhaps, the CL cap is based off of the creature's normal caster level. So, a level 20 cleric normally only has 20 "natural" CL. The effective CL for Holy Word from that caster would be capped at 23, or natural caster level + 3, no matter how many items or tricks that person has.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 03:21 PM
It's still a no-save and die.

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 03:24 PM
It's still a no-save and die.

It's not THAT bad, if it's the PC using it.

Most monsters have fewer caster levels than the players, but more hit dice. So yes, it will ruin you if the BBEG is using it, but that just means that the DM is doing a poor job. However, if the PC uses it, it's mostly good for clearing out a room full of grunts, so you can focus on the BBEG.

Keld Denar
2008-01-23, 03:32 PM
It's not THAT bad, if it's the PC using it.

Most monsters have fewer caster levels than the players, but more hit dice. So yes, it will ruin you if the BBEG is using it, but that just means that the DM is doing a poor job. However, if the PC uses it, it's mostly good for clearing out a room full of grunts, so you can focus on the BBEG.

Its also a GREAT alternative to "Detect X Alignment" spells. Just walk into a building, declare that all non-good citizens should leave if they value their lives, and speaketh. The number of non-good persons in the building will correlate directly to the number of heavy thuds of lifeless bodies hitting the ground in the aftermath. For and extra test, follow up with a Dictum to make sure you only associate with lawful good persons of upstanding nature. Can't be toooooo selective with your choice of friends, can you?

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 03:54 PM
Its also a GREAT alternative to "Detect X Alignment" spells. Just walk into a building, declare that all non-good citizens should leave if they value their lives, and speaketh. The number of non-good persons in the building will correlate directly to the number of heavy thuds of lifeless bodies hitting the ground in the aftermath. For and extra test, follow up with a Dictum to make sure you only associate with lawful good persons of upstanding nature. Can't be toooooo selective with your choice of friends, can you?

Actually, Holy Words strikes me as a bit of an evil spell, since it targets all non-good creatures, and not just evil creatures. I think it's evil to kill neutral creatures indiscriminately.

Neutral creatures should be immune to the death effect of Holy Word.

Kioran
2008-01-23, 04:44 PM
Holy Word + Good domain (boosts CL by 1) + Divine Spellpower (feat that can boost CL by up to 4) = Good Times.

But You´re forgetting Orange Ioun Stones and/or Hierophant levels + the bead of karma. If you´re okay with being a one-trick pony, you can easily and consistently beat a CL of 30.

CL 20 + 5 (Hierophant) + 1 (good domain) + 1 (Orange Ioun Stone) + 4 Bead of Karma + Divine spellpower = 31+

hrhrhr.

But there´s really only one good version of these spells, and that´s Dictum, killing of all those pesky chaotics, mwahahaha.
Seriously, these spells are broken. Badly so. They need caps, fixed caps.

Person_Man
2008-01-23, 04:44 PM
If you're a DM, you would only use Power Word Stun on a PC if it was part of an encounter that was otherwise balanced. I could use Wish against my PCs to kill them if I wanted to, but I don't, unless its part of a carefully balanced encounter that I've planned out.

If you're a PC, then the DM can easily counter balance it by just adding additional enemies or adding SR to his enemies. It only works against one enemy after all. It's no different then a build that can make invisible touch attacks with Leap Attack. Sure, it kills one enemy. But then what?

So really, I don't see what the issue is.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 05:05 PM
In otherwords, if you have a solo sorceress randomly run into a Pit Fiend, don't have the Pit fiend do

PW: Stun
hit, hit, hit, hit
PW: Stun
hit, hit, hit, hit
repeat ad naseum.

marjan
2008-01-23, 05:42 PM
In otherwords, if you have a solo sorceress randomly run into a Pit Fiend, don't have the Pit fiend do

PW: Stun
hit, hit.

This should be enough. No need for beating-up the corpse.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 05:48 PM
Even a Pit Fiend doesn't 2-hit KO a level 15 to 18 sorceress (not counting crits) right?

I mean, she's probably got a good 80 HP.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 05:53 PM
Even a Pit Fiend doesn't 2-hit KO a level 15 to 18 sorceress (not counting crits) right?

I mean, she's probably got a good 80 HP.
Assuming Con 16 (Reasonable):

4+15(2.5)+16(CON) = 89.5 HP

vs.

2 claws +30 melee (2d8+13) and 2 wings +28 melee (2d6+6) and bite +28 melee (4d6+6 plus poison plus disease) and tail slap +28 melee (2d8+6)

6(4.5)+8(3.5)+50 = 105 damage on a full attack.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 06:19 PM
And a full-attack is more than 2 hits :)

We're also assuming that all of the hits actually land.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 06:31 PM
And a full-attack is more than 2 hits :)

We're also assuming that all of the hits actually land.

He's got at least a +28 vs a nonmartial character whose been denied his Dex to AC via stunning. His AC will be what, 15?

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-01-23, 07:18 PM
He's got at least a +28 vs a nonmartial character whose been denied his Dex to AC via stunning. His AC will be what, 15?

Don't forget the additional -2 flat penalty Stunning also produces on top of it. AC of 13, maybe. :)

Considering that the Pit Fiend has Power Attack as well, and can certainly leverage it rather aggressively against such an individual, add in another 18 damage per natural attack too. :)

Frosty
2008-01-23, 07:30 PM
Wait. Maybe I didn't read the definition of "Stunning" correctly, but I remember *nothing* about it making the victim denied dex-to-AC, or having -2 AC.

And at the level you would fight a Balor, you think you'll have only like 18 AC? That's ludicrous. At that level, in a fight, most casters would throw up Greater Mirror Image as an Immediate action :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 07:43 PM
Wait. Maybe I didn't read the definition of "Stunning" correctly, but I remember *nothing* about it making the victim denied dex-to-AC, or having -2 AC.

And at the level you would fight a Balor, you think you'll have only like 18 AC? That's ludicrous. At that level, in a fight, most casters would throw up Greater Mirror Image as an Immediate action :smalltongue:


Stunned

A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

From here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned)

Frosty
2008-01-23, 08:05 PM
This makes Stunned a lot more powerful than I imagined.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 08:07 PM
It does. Believe me, if there were a way to get power word: stun into a wand, every rogue would have one.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-01-23, 08:31 PM
It does. Believe me, if there were a way to get power word: stun into a wand, every rogue would have one.
Which is why they should go for a staff, which has no spell level limits. :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 08:41 PM
Which is why they should go for a staff, which has no spell level limits. :smallwink:

Yeah, but staves are expensive.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-23, 08:57 PM
Yeah, but staves are expensive.

Not if you make the staff a Staff Of Stun: Cost will be 375 x 8 spell level x 15 caster (minimum for 8th level spell)= 45, 000 /2 so 22, 500 gold. But selling for 45 K.

It is possible to make a solitary spell Staff, but since secondary spells have discount to add them: most have more than one.

Affordable by 12th or 13th level.

FinalJustice
2008-01-23, 09:11 PM
Level in which they'd be ridiculously good, because one would hardly have this much HP to defend against it.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 09:41 PM
Can Staves be used by anyone without a UMD check?

Starbuck_II
2008-01-23, 09:48 PM
Can Staves be used by anyone without a UMD check?

Nope, you need UMD or spell list. DC is 20 for Staves though so UMD is easy.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 09:53 PM
Nope, you need UMD or spell list. DC is 20 for Staves though so UMD is easy.

And if you have the Magic Item Attunement feat, you only need to hit that DC once per day.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-01-24, 09:54 AM
Not if you make the staff a Staff Of Stun: Cost will be 375 x 8 spell level x 15 caster (minimum for 8th level spell)= 45, 000 /2 so 22, 500 gold. But selling for 45 K.
Which is conveniently enough the same price as a Wand of an 8th level spell at 15 CL, if such an item were to exist. What makes a staff pricey is holding more than one spell and the fact that even 0 through 4th level spells must be stored at CL 8. A staff that stores a single 5th or higher level spell doesn't change the pricing formula a bit when compared to a Wand.


Affordable by 12th or 13th level.
Assuming most of your wealth by level at that point is liquid (selling old and/or useless treasure for half sucks!) and you can get to a Metropolis (only town size with sufficient gp limit) that features those for sale.

Or you're starting the campaign at 13th level and don't have to justify where you got it.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-24, 11:01 AM
Which is conveniently enough the same price as a Wand of an 8th level spell at 15 CL, if such an item were to exist. What makes a staff pricey is holding more than one spell and the fact that even 0 through 4th level spells must be stored at CL 8. A staff that stores a single 5th or higher level spell doesn't change the pricing formula a bit when compared to a Wand.


Assuming most of your wealth by level at that point is liquid (selling old and/or useless treasure for half sucks!) and you can get to a Metropolis (only town size with sufficient gp limit) that features those for sale.

Or you're starting the campaign at 13th level and don't have to justify where you got it.

DMG says a 1/3rd of wealth is allowed to be used up to buy something. No 1/2 your wealth in one item. So Strictly by the rules allowed.

Yes, finding a seller is the difficulty.

Frosty
2008-01-24, 02:14 PM
Getting DM approval is also a problem.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-24, 02:23 PM
Getting DM approval is also a problem.

Why? The Rogue must spend many skill points to past often:
assuming 12 Cha, he can get +15 ranks=+16 check.
So he fails on a 3.

He seems devoted to UMD. Why nerf the skill user?

Is it the spell that needs approval... well, he only gets 50 uses before it runs out.

Heck, he could get it for less if he got a Wizard to sell one that costs 2 charges each, reduces 25 uses/staff though. Price becomes 22, 500, but only 11, 250 to make.
Yeash, than he can afford it by late end of level 10 or early level 11.

Frosty
2008-01-24, 02:30 PM
you'd only use it on boss fights anyways, so that's plenty...and plenty overpowered.