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Baron Corm
2008-01-23, 02:19 AM
This class is designed to bring crossbows into the sphere of usability, and indeed be desirable. While my knowledge of medieval warfare is limited, I believe crossbows had the power to penetrate armor without problems and according to "various internet sources" were considered "unfair" because a novice crossbowman could easily slay a well-trained knight from a range of 200 yards. While I don't want to make them that good, they should at least be as good as composite bows. Perhaps better. Aren't crossbows better weapons in general than bows? I don't really know.

From my mild research I discovered that the repeating crossbow used in DND is not really anything like a real repeating crossbow, at least when compared to the DND version of a regular crossbow. It should deal less damage and fire faster, but instead it deals the same damage and its faster firing is just a feat away for a normal crossbow. Would it be unbalanced to grant an additional attack or so for repeating crossbow users?

I would also like to know if anyone has links to other prestige classes/feats/etc for crossbows which helps their users out. Thanks in advance.

I am a big fan of the master thrower class for what it does to throwing weapons, and this class is modeled after it. I would like some ideas for special abilities, since that class has nine, and I could only think of five. I'm considering putting the special abilities on the even levels, if no one has any ideas.


Master Crossbowman
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Swift trigger finger

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Consistent shot (1/encounter)

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Crossbow mastery (+1x, +10 feet)

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Reactive shot

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Consistent shot (2/encounter)

6th|+6|+5|+2|+2|Crossbow mastery (+2x, +20 feet)

7th|+7|+5|+2|+2|Improved swift trigger finger

8th|+8|+6|+2|+2|Consistent shot (3/encounter)

9th|+9|+6|+3|+3|Crossbow mastery (+3x, +30 feet)

10th|+10|+7|+3|+3|Execute[/table]

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Requirements

Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Skills: Spot 4 ranks.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

Master crossbowmen receive proficiency with any crossbow they are not proficient with.

Swift Trigger Finger (Ex)

The master crossbowman can make one extra attack per round at his highest attack bonus when taking the full attack action with any type of crossbow.

Consistent Shot (Ex)

At 2nd level, the crossbowman has become such a seasoned marksman that, once per encounter, he may deal maximum damage with a crossbow. This increases by once per encounter at levels 4 and 7.

Crossbow Mastery (Ex)

At 3rd level, the master crossbowman adds one to the critical multiplier of any crossbow wielded and 10 feet to the range at which precision damage may be dealt with a crossbow (to a total of 70 feet with Crossbow Sniper). The multiplier increase by 1x and the range increases by 10 feet at levels 6 and 9.

Reactive Shot (Ex)

At 4th level, the master crossbowman gains the ability to make a single attack as an immediate action with a crossbow. This can only be in response to an action which provokes attacks of opportunity, such as drinking a potion or casting a spell.

Improved Swift Trigger Finger (Ex)

At 7th level, the master crossbowman's swift trigger finger ability improves. He can now make an extra attack on a standard action with a crossbow.

Execute (Ex)

At 10th level, the master crossbowman achieves a level of precision and deadliness with the crossbow which could not be had with any other weapon. When adjacent to his target, he may make a single shot as a standard action with a crossbow which causes the creature to make a Fortitude save (DC = damage dealt) or be slain instantly.

This only functions against creatures with a discernable anatomy. It takes up uses per encounter of the Consistent Shot ability.

Cieyrin
2008-01-24, 01:47 AM
Execute seems a little overpowered for it's ability; you quickly outclass an assassin's death attack, which seems wrong to me. Just straight class level i think would work fairly well but then, ti's your class; do with it as you will.

The class also seems kinda weaker than the Master Thrower is, since you only get 2 abilities and a lack of bonus feats in comparison. Maybe Crossbow Sniper from PHB2 wouldn't necessarily be a bad choice. Also, I don't think Evasion meshes well with the class, as for the Thrower, the art of throwing requires far more muscles and fine control to do well, while with a crossbow, you measure up a shot and pull the trigger, which doesn't elude to being nimble enough to jump out of the way of dangerous effects like that.

Vital Shot also seems a bit silly, especially if you crit. it's almost as bad as an auto-crit and you get it at 5th level, so why bother saying 1/class level? You're not advancing any further in a 5 level class, so give a flat limit like 1+dex mod/day or 5/day or something like that.

Finally, I think you have too much loaded into swift trigger finger. free action reload of heavy (and possibly great) crossbows is all well and good but an extra attack as part of full action is made possible by my friend and yours, Rapid Shot. What really makes this quite a bit greasy is the extra attack on a STANDARD action. That deserves it's own ability by itself.

That's just my two cents on this. Take it all as you will.

Nebo_
2008-01-24, 02:06 AM
What kind of character who's focused on using a crossbow doesn't already have rapid reload by level 5? It's as stupid as the Reaping Mauler getting Improved Grapple at first level.

Execute is overpowered. Penetrate is badly worded, why not just give a bonus to attack rolls?

keyboardboy101
2008-01-24, 11:21 PM
This does seem to be a kind of, poorly designed class? At first level you should get to choose which bonus feat you take from a group of crossbow-related feats, since most people should already have rapid reload.

Execute is overpowered (should ony be single times level, not double, but even then it is overpowered)

Penetrate and Shimmer shot (shimmer?) I could see being very useful for a crossbow class as well as swift trigger finger.

Why do you need sleight of hand for a crossbow class? and why evasion 3rd level?

Fluff is always nice as a side note.

Baron Corm
2008-01-27, 07:17 PM
Execute seems a little overpowered for it's ability

Should note that this is a 5 level class and therefore has the standard saving throw.


The class also seems kinda weaker than the Master Thrower is, since you only get 2 abilities and a lack of bonus feats in comparison. Also, I don't think Evasion meshes well with the class, as for the Thrower, the art of throwing requires far more muscles and fine control to do well, while with a crossbow, you measure up a shot and pull the trigger, which doesn't elude to being nimble enough to jump out of the way of dangerous effects like that.

Reloading a crossbow in the middle of combat requires more manual dexterity than chucking an axe. I don't see how you equate the action of throwing with leaping out of a fireball any more than shooting. Other than the reloading, they're both matters of aiming. Being based on master thrower, I just gave them the same thing.


Vital Shot also seems a bit silly, especially if you crit. it's almost as bad as an auto-crit

You think this is overpowered? Dealing 10 damage on a single d10? Compared to a paladin's smite which deals 20 EXTRA damage? It gets powerful with sneak attack, but it's still not actually adding any damage, so I feel it is fine as a class feature. Also, maxed disintegrate, etc.


Finally, I think you have too much loaded into swift trigger finger. free action reload of heavy (and possibly great) crossbows is all well and good but an extra attack as part of full action is made possible by my friend and yours, Rapid Shot. What really makes this quite a bit greasy is the extra attack on a STANDARD action. That deserves it's own ability by itself.

Perhaps. This is all related to the questions I had about repeating crossbows in the intro text. In this matter, and others, I've been seeing a lot of people saying "this is bad", but what would really be useful is "this is bad, try this".


What kind of character who's focused on using a crossbow doesn't already have rapid reload by level 5? It's as stupid as the Reaping Mauler getting Improved Grapple at first level.

Master thrower did the same thing. It's assumed that you can pick a different feat if you have that one already.


Execute is overpowered.

Why. What would you do different. Etc.


Penetrate is badly worded, why not just give a bonus to attack rolls?

Because crossbows are known for penetrating armor. This works quite differently than a bonus to attack rolls, because it has a lessened effect on those who depend on Dexterity rather than armor.


Stuff

I believe I covered all that. Just wanted to let you know you weren't forgotten :smalltongue:

Fusecase
2008-01-28, 05:55 AM
Rapid Reload: No, just no. I would say Weapon Specialization with every crossbow you take focus in wouldn't break a thing.

Swift Trigger Finger: Fine, but add in that it gives an ability for lighter crossbows as well. I would say may make an extra attack at -5 on a full round attack action or a standard action. And name it Swift Load or something of the sort.

Penetrate: Fine.

Execute: Needs a spotting time, maybe 1-2 full rounds? The DC should be 10+class level+dex or 10+damage dealt.

Or it could be changed to: Attack as a full round action and auto crit on a successful hit.

Shimmer Shot: Fine

Consistent Shot: Fine

Vital Shot: Boring, but acceptable. I would make it add dex to all crossbow damage rolls and keep the max damge class level/day.

These are written with the fact that the class has only five levels ever in mind.

Terrari
2008-01-28, 06:13 AM
Hooray for crossbows and those who use them.

In our games, Light crossbows do 2d6 damage and heavies do 4d4. A character with less than an 8 strength takes twice as long to reload a light crossbow and a character with less than a 12 strength takes twice as long to reload a heavy crossbow.

We did this to make crossbows use-able, and to reflect the fact that they shoot a missile with more force than a bow does.

Brom
2008-01-29, 12:22 AM
Crossbows in my game world are the norm for most armies. They require very little in the ways of space, being compact. This compaction allows someone to go prone with it ((drastically increasing survival in fights), to shoot straight up and down with it (not always the easiest thing with a bow) and to fire through narrow slits. I like your 2d6 & 4d4 thing, although it seems like it could get extreme once a Fighter in your party realizes this and goes Rapid Reload. That's greatsword damage being done with every shot at a range.

I've really been hoping to see a ten level marksman class based partially on the Order oft he Bow Initiate. So, here's my thoughts:

Sleight of Hand, four ranks? Why? Since when does being a good pickpocket make you a good shot? I would say Spot, as there are feats that exist that make someone capable of hitting weakpoints and bypassing AC by using Spot. Plus, then it would be viable to Rangers, who might love this class if the DM allowed a crossbow variant.

Feats...meh. I would make the feats Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Crossbow Sniper. That's four feats, a respectable amount, even to a human fighter. Plus, all awesome feats for a true crossbower.

Execute I feel is nice, as anytime a crossbowman is that close to someone, something bad has happened. I don't see it coming up in games very much. Still, I suggest you take on my mechanic: 10 + damage dealt saving throw. Cuts out all the crazy stuff, plus, think about it, a sneak attack/execute that deals 86 points of damage and crits successfully should be more likely to just kill you than one that crits and does 20 damage, right?

Penetrate feels awkward. Penetration power is in the crossbow, not to mention, the player not knowing the monsters AC, this puts benifeting in the hands of the DM. In my D&D games, I have a lot going on during combats. I don't even think it should be there. I would say replace it with something like, I don't know, Line the Shot, take a move action and gain +1/level to your to hit for the rest of the turn.

Swift Trigger finger feels kinda lame, especially when a smart crossbower would have Rapid Reload by first level, much less 6th level, by when they meet pre-reqs for this class. Just saying, ''They get one extra attack at their highest attack bonus'' could very well make your life easier.

So, a crossbow already has an x3 Crit. According to shimmer shot, by 5th level, I have an x8 critical multiplier with a 1d8 weapon. Let's assume average on d8 roll, so four. That's 32 damage based off of critical. I don't know what you think about that. Still, it doesn't change the threat range, so it's probably all right. In fact, if I was a player I would say that's a bit lame and ask for something else. If you want, say they can spend a move action to gain a +2 to damage/Master Crossbow Specialist level.

Evasion...no. There is no correlation between evading fireballs and shooting things. If the class had the pre-reqs of rapid reload, dodge, mobility, and shot on the run, I might agree with Evasion, but as is no. Something this class is missing that you could put in there is a range increment increase. Aren't crossbows only viable up to a range of 80 feet? Adding 40 feet/Crossbow Specialist level could make this class really nice.

Vital Shot.....nah. Say that instead they can do multiple types of damage with their crossbow due to their expertise. That way, being 5 Fighter/1 Rogue/5 MCS, he won't feel like a dumbass when at level 11 he meets mean creatures with DR/10 slashing.

Of course, there is still the issue that I would and have taken Order of the Bow Initiate over that. My archer, Agarath, is now level 11, and is OotBI/3 Fighter/7 Ranger 1

Due to the Greater Manyshot feat, which allows him to roll his shots seperately, and allows him to add precision damage. Four arrows is made at 1d8+2d8 x4 if all hit. IE, I roll four hits, and add 2d8 precision to the normal 1d8.

Damage from that build will outpace you so hard, and for a crossbower to be outpaced by a bow I think is not your intention.

Baron Corm
2008-01-29, 12:38 PM
Alright, throwing all attempts at realism and similarity to master thrower aside, how about this. I made it 10 levels and changed some abilities around, according to suggestions. Reloading a heavy crossbow as a free action should just be a feat. I would still like to fit in armor piercing somehow, if anyone has ideas.

Brom, I don't think OotBI allows you to combine manyshot with its 1d8 damage increasing thing, because each takes a standard action.