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Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 11:29 AM
In Exemplars of Evil, in the Captain Gnash chapter, there's a Kyton with 22 HD in the ship's hold.

It's listed as CR 9.

How is a Large creature with 200 HP, a bite +23, 4 claws +22 full attack, 45' move speed with Spring Attack, 1d6/1d6 on-bite poison, and Power Attack as a bonus feat CR 9? :smallconfused:

Douglas
2008-01-23, 11:35 AM
It's not. First off, Kyton advancement by hit dice doesn't go beyond 16. Second, a mere 14 HD would already put it at CR 9, and hit die advancement doesn't cover the increase in size, improved speed, or the poison. Someone messed up in a very big way in making that monster.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 12:31 PM
Okay, good. I'm not a lunatic.

Person_Man
2008-01-23, 01:19 PM
Okay, good. I'm not a lunatic.

Well, you might be. But having a good eye for detail and catching a typo isn't evidence to support that theory ;)

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 01:23 PM
Well, you might be. But having a good eye for detail and catching a typo isn't evidence to support that theory ;)

The thing is, I don't think this is a typo. The monster's correctly adjusted for a 22 HD creature. I just think it's woefully misplaced. The rest of the Captain Gnash encounters are EL 7-10, and then this "EL 9" is in the bottom of the ship.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-23, 01:29 PM
Seriously, are we even sure that the creature in question is a Kyton?

Continuing Douglas' calculations based on the guidelines for monster improvement would put it at CR 14.

Normal 8 HD: CR 6
+14 HD: + CR 7
+ Large: + CR 1

Without accounting for the other things it gets.

I think maybe they based the CR on something that would be an appropriate challenge for a party created by Person Man...

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 01:33 PM
Has EoE been errated, do you know?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-23, 01:36 PM
Not to my knowledge and it would not be surprised if it won't be.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 01:38 PM
Not to my knowledge and it would not be surprised if it won't be.

I dunno. Wasn't it one of the books that WotC said they'd provide "Using This Book In 4e" provisions for?

Person_Man
2008-01-23, 01:45 PM
Sadly I don't have the book, so I can't read through the section and render a reasonable opinion.

Although I would say that the encounters I DM do tend to involve monsters well above the suggested CR. I play with some smart veterans. And I find that any monster without significant spells, special abilities, or a ton of hit points tends to be wiped out by the end of the first round.

Does a Kyton have DR, SR, or something similar? Does the Poison have an obnoxious Save DC? If the answer is no to both of those questions, then it actually does seem somewhat appropriate as a boss battle for a CR 9ish group. 4 characters with access to things like Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Divine Power, Slow/Neutralize Poison, Restoration, etc, should be able to take it down in a couple of rounds.

However if its something the PCs just stumble upon in the hull of a ship, then yeah, its insane that it would be there.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 01:49 PM
From what I recall, it's got SR, Immune (Acid, Cold), Resist (Electricity, Fire) 20, no vulnerabilities, AC 25ish, and a DC for the poison (1d6/1d6 Str) in the twenties. But this is off memory, so it could be a bit wrong. Oh, and it's fourth claw attack has a DC 25ish Reflex save or be entangled. It's a Large (Tall) aberration, so it's got 10' reach too.

There's a chance that in a preceding encounter, someone could step on a patch of weak floorboards and fall into the hold, effectively making them solo against the kyton.

Oh, and it's surrounded by some bloodmote swarms. Four or five of them, in fact.

EDIT: Titan!

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-23, 01:53 PM
Ahh, so we are not talking about a weird version of the Chain Devil then?

Sadly I don't have the book either, so I cannot say anything about how 4E compatible I think it will be, but I had not heard that they had plans to do that Fax.



[Solo encounter - rotten floorboards]

Oh, and it's surrounded by some bloodmote swarms. Four or five of them, in fact.

Nice!


EDIT: Titan!

Aberration!

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 01:57 PM
The book attributes the original source of the creature in question to either LoM or BoVD, I don't recall. I believe it's BoVD though.

...I really shouldn't work so much off of memory.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 02:01 PM
In my efforts to find information about a potential 4e update for EoE, I have found that the encounter in question (The Hold of Madness) is technically excerpted (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/ExemplarsEvil/ExemplarsEeevil43.zip)on the WotC website, but the link doesn't work.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-23, 02:01 PM
The book attributes the original source of the creature in question to either LoM or BoVD, I don't recall. I believe it's BoVD though.

...I really shouldn't work so much off of memory.

Ahh it was your spelling then. :smalltongue:

Kython (many sorts), Book of Vile Shadowy Illumination.

Person_Man
2008-01-23, 02:02 PM
From what I recall, it's got SR, Immune (Acid, Cold), Resist (Electricity, Fire) 20, no vulnerabilities, AC 25ish, and a DC for the poison (1d6/1d6 Str) in the twenties. But this is off memory, so it could be a bit wrong. Oh, and it's fourth claw attack has a DC 25ish Reflex save or be entangled. It's a Large (Tall) aberration, so it's got 10' reach too.

There's a chance that in a preceding encounter, someone could step on a patch of weak floorboards and fall into the hold, effectively making them solo against the kyton.

Oh, and it's surrounded by some bloodmote swarms. Four or five of them, in fact.

EDIT: Titan!

Well then, the writers/editors are the ones who are crazy here, not you Fax. With SR, energy resistance, and a high Save on its potent poison, and a supporting cast of swarms around it, its clearly an encounter for much higher level characters. I'd probably peg it into the 14ish area like Silvanos then, maybe a bit higher or lower depending on the composition of the party.

On the up side for the PCs, it has a low damage output and its poison will only incapacitate them, not kill them. Maybe its a setup for the classic "BBEG captures PC's and tries to convert them/force them to go on an evil mission/explain his grand master plan because of arrogance" plotline?

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 02:07 PM
This link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20071011a) indicates that Exemplars of Evil will be 4e compatible, among a few other books.


Well then, the writers/editors are the ones who are crazy here, not you Fax. With SR, energy resistance, and a high Save on its potent poison, and a supporting cast of swarms around it, its clearly an encounter for much higher level characters. I'd probably peg it into the 14ish area like Silvanos then, maybe a bit higher or lower depending on the composition of the party.

On the up side for the PCs, it has a low damage output and its poison will only incapacitate them, not kill them. Maybe its a setup for the classic "BBEG captures PC's and tries to convert them/force them to go on an evil mission/explain his grand master plan because of arrogance" plotline?

That'd well be the case if the party were able to get to the hold without actually killing the rest of the crew first. :smallannoyed:

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 02:13 PM
Oh! Wow, that was quick. I just sent in an email about the broken link and apparently it's fixed now. You can see The Thing In The Hold in all it's under-CRed glory here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/ExemplarsEvil/ExemplarsEeevil43.zip).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-23, 02:16 PM
Here is the stat block:


The Thing in the Hold CR 9
hp 209 (22 HD)
Male advanced adult kythonBoVD
NE Large aberration
Init +7; Senses blindsight 60 ft.; Listen +12, Spot +2
Languages Abyssal, Infernal
AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 24; Dodge, Mobility
(–1 size, +2 Dex, +12 natural)
Immune acid, cold
Resist electricity 20, fire 20
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +15
Speed 45 ft. (9 squares); Spring Attack
Melee bite +23 (4d6+8/19–20 plus poison) and
3 claws +22 each (2d6+4) and
claw +22 (2d6+4 plus mucus pod)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +16; Grp +28
Atk Options Cleave, Power Attack, mucus pod, poison
(Fort DC 21, 1d6 Str/1d6 Str)
Abilities Str 27, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11
Feats Cleave, Dash, Dodge, Improved Critical (bite),
Improved InitiativeB, Mobility, MultiattackB, Power
Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Escape Artist +13, Hide +14, Jump +12, Listen +12,
Move Silently +17, Spot +2, Use Rope +2 (+4 bindings)
Mucus Pod (Ex) A target struck by a kython’s fourth claw
attack is sprayed by yellow mucus from a pod on the
creature’s arm. The target must succeed on a DC 26
Reflex save or become entangled for 1d6+4 rounds.
Alcohol dissolves the entangling mucus.

You are fast too Fax. :smallamused:

Apart from the fact that advancement normally stops at 20 HD, CR 9 is correct according to the rules for advancement.

Normal 10 HD: CR 5
+ 12 HD: + CR 3
Large size: + CR 1

Person_Man
2008-01-23, 02:27 PM
OK, new theory.

Exemplars of Evil was written for 4th ed, but released under 3.5 as a trail balloon to see what people thought of it. And CR is presumably scaled much differently in 4th ed, since players start out with (max HD*3) + Con mod hit points and presumably have no dead levels.

For example, the Bloodbloaters have 22 hit points, a pile of immunities, and a Save or Suck special ability with a DC 17 Fort Save (ie, just under 50% chance of success for most 1st level PC's). And they are CR 1.

Power creep much?

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 02:29 PM
OK, new theory.

Exemplars of Evil was written for 4th ed, but released under 3.5 as a trail balloon to see what people thought of it. And CR is presumably scaled much differently in 4th ed, since players start out with (max HD*3) + Con mod hit points and presumably have no dead levels.

For example, the Bloodbloaters have 22 hit points, a pile of immunities, and a Save or Suck special ability with a DC 17 Fort Save (ie, just under 50% chance of success for most 1st level PC's). And they are CR 1.

Power creep much?

This is the only encounter I've encountered [sic] so far in the book that was like this, though I have only read the first three Exemplars.

EDIT: on top of that, most of those immunities and a few of their abilities stem from the fact that they're a swarm.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-23, 02:39 PM
Power creep much?

But they are using 3.0 monsters, Bloodbloaters are from Fiend Folio, so the power creep is not due to 4E.

Although, they have not found the nicest critters to import.

Douglas
2008-01-23, 02:51 PM
Ok, so it apparently does match the official rules. It's still way off target. That is far too powerful for a CR 9. They also seem to have messed up the math on the save DC for the poison attack - poison DCs are con-based, so it should be 10 + half hit dice + con bonus = 10 + 11 + 5 = DC 26, not DC 21, which just makes it even more out of whack. It's possible that's a change from 3.0 to 3.5, in which case the 21 might technically be correct following the rules text in the 3.0 BoVD, but if so it should be updated to match the general rule in 3.5. Either way, it's vastly under-CRed.

For a similarly under-CRed monster, take a look at the Immoth (I think) in the MMII. Rated CR 9 as I recall, but strictly superior to a level 12 sorcerer of any PHB race.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 02:53 PM
So that being said, what could I do to cut it down to size? I was actually hoping to use this set of encounters on some of my PCs.

Frosty
2008-01-23, 02:58 PM
I say most non-frontliners will fail a DC 17 fort save at level 1. Even with a generous 16 con, a wizard will only have +3 fort save.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-23, 03:00 PM
They also seem to have messed up the math on the save DC for the poison attack - poison DCs are con-based, so it should be 10 + half hit dice + con bonus = 10 + 11 + 5 = DC 26, not DC 21, which just makes it even more out of whack. It's possible that's a change from 3.0 to 3.5, in which case the 21 might technically be correct following the rules text in the 3.0 BoVD, but if so it should be updated to match the general rule in 3.5. Either way, it's vastly under-CRed.

No, the rule was the same in 3.0. It is an error in the stat-block for the adult Kython (in BovD). (The others are ok, apparently no one checked the DC math when advancing :smalleek: )

Fax, I think you could use a less advanced adult Kython or perhaps an Impaler Kython.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 03:00 PM
I say most non-frontliners will fail a DC 17 fort save at level 1. Even with a generous 16 con, a wizard will only have +3 fort save.

No, no, this isn't supposed to be EL 1. It's supposed to be EL 8 or 9. Misunderstood. The thing is, one is supposed to use swarms in groups--not as solo encounters--and therefore they act more reasonable as part of a mob encounter.

osyluth
2008-01-23, 03:10 PM
I hope that this isn't a sign of Wizards of the Coast testing out their 4e monster principles. :wink:

Mewtarthio
2008-01-23, 04:47 PM
I hope that this isn't a sign of Wizards of the Coast testing out their 4e monster principles. :wink:

"It is often said that death should be more meaningful in DnD. Therefore, we recommend you heighten the tension by ending every adventure with a brutal TPK. Anyone who survives is a munchkin and should be banned. This will cut down on the number of resurrections in the world."

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 06:37 PM
"It is often said that death should be more meaningful in DnD. Therefore, we recommend you heighten the tension by ending every adventure with a brutal TPK. Anyone who survives is a munchkin and should be banned. This will cut down on the number of resurrections in the world."

"We have removed all forms of curative and rejuvenatory magic, as well as all methods of resurrection, as we feel it is more in line with this mindset. The cleric class has been severely downsized to display this tendency."

The Professor
2008-01-23, 11:57 PM
Huh. Frightening critter for the CR... And I knew something was wrong with that book. That minotaur cleric? It has nine levels in Cleric, and was CR 9 (I'm going off memory, which could be incorrect, but I recall it having the same CR as it did levels in Cleric), which confused the heck out of me.

Maybe I should take another gander at it to see if it really is balanced...

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-24, 12:05 AM
Non associated class levels are fun.

Gralamin
2008-01-24, 12:54 AM
Non associated class levels are fun.

And should be ignored.

Cybren
2008-01-24, 01:23 AM
Maybe it's uhhh

Like Warmech in Final Fantasy, a boss harder than any other in the game and only encountered by random chance when going to fight a different boss (which is himself not even the second or third strongest).

Yeah that makes sense. :smallsigh:

The Professor
2008-01-24, 07:00 AM
Non associated class levels are fun.

Regardless, it's silly. Not quite up there with that Kython or That Damn Crab, but silly nonetheless. These things need more acid tests up there at WotC.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-24, 08:37 AM
Huh. Frightening critter for the CR... And I knew something was wrong with that book. That minotaur cleric? It has nine levels in Cleric, and was CR 9 (I'm going off memory, which could be incorrect, but I recall it having the same CR as it did levels in Cleric), which confused the heck out of me.

Maybe I should take another gander at it to see if it really is balanced...

Unless your recollection fails they made a mistake.

A standard Minotaur with 9 levels of cleric would be CR 10:

Standard Minotaur with 6 Racial HD: CR 4
6 non associated cleric levels: + CR 3
3 Associated Cleric levels: + CR 3