Balanced Party?

[wowy319]

Hey there, everyone!

I'm running a Savage Tide campaign, and there are 6 PCs. Problem is, I'm not sure if this group is balanced in the sense of being able to deal with the encounters. But I want more than the opinions of my players to think on. So, here's the party:

Warblade, Wizard, Beguiler, Cleric, Warmage, Swashbuckler.

Is this balanced enough? I'm worried about them needing something more rogue-ish than a beguiler.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Anything rogue can do, beguiler can do it better! Except for Sneak Attack, of course. :smallamused:

[Icewalker]

Looks extremely balanced to me. I'm running a party of Ranger, Soulfused (combat damage homebrew class), Wizard, homebrew arcane caster, Crusader, and Warlock. Although the crusader is going to multi-class into cleric.

[Frosty]

Anything rogue can do, beguiler can do it better! Except for Sneak Attack, of course. :smallamused:

+1 agreed. Seriously. Beguilers can even diable traps better because disable device and search are INT-based. That, and level 9 spells > sneak attack + uncanny dodge + evasion

[Kioran]

Hey there, everyone!

I'm running a Savage Tide campaign, and there are 6 PCs. Problem is, I'm not sure if this group is balanced in the sense of being able to deal with the encounters. But I want more than the opinions of my players to think on. So, here's the party:

Warblade, Wizard, Beguiler, Cleric, Warmage, Swashbuckler.

Is this balanced enough? I'm worried about them needing something more rogue-ish than a beguiler.

Well, you have two borderline NPC-Classes (warmage and Swashy - what´s up? Why didn´t the beguiler get only 4 skill ranks/lvl and the Warmage get 0.75 BAB and a d8 :smallfurious: /rant).......and 4 very powerful classes. Wizards and Clerics rock, if played cleverly, beguilers are horribly broken becuade they can do the Rogues job as well as the Rogue does and another one to boot (they lose combat power against things immune to mind-affetcing stuff. Tough).
Warblades are also good, especially since they can be built for lots of durability. So, all in all, no. Your party should be well equipped to handle things.

[Draz74]

Warblade, Wizard, Beguiler, Cleric, Warmage, Swashbuckler.

Is this balanced enough? I'm worried about them needing something more rogue-ish than a beguiler.

Like others have said, this would do fine. Except that the last two players might feel left out of the action.

Could you have the Swashbuckler change to Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue X with Daring Outlaw (or the other way around: Rogue 3 / Swash X)? And the Warmage switch to Duskblade or something? That would make those two a bit more competitive, while also alleviating your fears about not having a true Rogue.

Factotum X / Swashbuckler 3 is another "swashbuckler" build that is somewhat better mechanically than the single-class version.

[Wordmiser]

I give my Swashbucklers Good Reflex Saves, d8 HD, Riposte Damage and 6 skill points/level, but I give significant power boosts to almost all non-ToB melee classes (the group I DM isn't made of optimizers; there's no way they'd ever make a Fighter who could outdo a Warblade).

[Burrito]

If you really need support in one small category, just hire an NPC. You could make him some sort of cohort or follower of one of your PC's. Or just have him as "background noise" until you need him.

[Swooper]

As they say, the only imbalance in your party are between the first four and the last two. They fulfill every party role perfectly, I don't think I've ever been in a party like that (but then, my regular group has only three players so we tend to have no divine caster).

[Fenix_of_Doom]

beguilers are horribly broken becuade they can do the Rogues job as well as the Rogue does and another one to boot

Sure beguilers are full casters and get good class skills, but they are limited to two schools of magic and thus give up a LOT of very good spells. The beguiler is certainly not weak, but being able to use skills is not overpowered, especially not compared to clerics, druids wizards and the rest of 'em.

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to the Warmage, a Battle Sorcerer may be a better choice for you, Kioran. They get a d8 and Rogue BAB, but they get less spells (on the bright side, they aren't limited to just using direct damage spells).

[Craig1f]

It seems extremely balanced, AS LONG as the beguiler is investing in skills to make him replace the rogue. Search, Disable Divice, hide, move silently, etc. He doesn't need lockpicking, because he can just use Knock.

You don't have a party face either, so the beguiler may also need to fill that role. But he should be getting at least 10 skill points a level, so that should be no problem.

Anything a rogue can do, a beguiler can probably do better .. except for sneak attack. But you have enough damage dealers that it's no problem.

[Craig1f]

Sure beguilers are full casters and get good class skills, but they are limited to two schools of magic and thus give up a LOT of very good spells. The beguiler is certainly not weak, but being able to use skills is not overpowered, especially not compared to clerics, druids wizards and the rest of 'em.

I'm not sure I'd use the word "overpowered", but I'm kind of hoping my Barbarian will die next Wednesday, so I can bring in the Beguiler I've made.

They get SO many skill points, since they use INT as their main stat. They have more spells available by the time they reach third level spells, then sorcerers will have in their whole career. However, they are limited by the fact that anything with a saving throw is a will-save.

But with their use of illusions, they can be far more sneaky than a rogue.
They can dump Lockpicking, since they have Knock.
They can dump Climb, since they have spiderclimb.
They can (but shouldn't) dump hide, since they have invisibility.
They can (but shouldn't) dump move silently, since they have silence, and are often whispergnomes.
They can dump bluff, because they have glibness.
They can dump disguise, because they have Alter Self.
They can take Power Word Pain as their first Advanced Learning. Look it up. It's in Dragon Magic, or Races of Dragons, or Draconimicon. I forget which one. It'll average 10d6 damage, and is a first level spell.

On second thought, maybe they are a tad overpowered. Hopefully I'll be playing one soon. We ended in the middle of combat, after I took a swing at the BBEG. He's going to get a full-round attack on me first thing next session. I'm pretty sure he's also a caster, and will dominate me or some such nonsense. Good times.

[Frosty]

Beguilers are overpowered compared to what? Fighters? Sure. Other casters...not so much (Warmage counts as an archer not caster)

[Craig1f]

Beguilers are overpowered compared to what? Fighters? Sure. Other casters...not so much (Warmage counts as an archer not caster)

Overpowered compared to other stealthy types.

Rogues provide a necessary role in a party, that can not be duplicated by fighters or spellcasters. They also bring to the table sneak attack, which allows them to deal decent damgae in a fight as a secondary fighter.

Beguilers do everything that a rogue does, except sneak attack. They lack the ability to deal damage, but their spells allow them to be more efficient at their "rogue" roll. And their spells can be more useful in a fight than the occasional sneak attack. However, a beguiler alone is probably not going to be able to kill anything with more than 3d6 hit dice.

Edit: Until they use advanced learning to get some Shadow Spells.

[Frosty]

Well, at low levels, a Coup De Grace after Hold Person/Deep Slumber will do the trick. At higher levels, there's the Dominate series, or even Hold Monster can continue with the CDGs. There's more ways to defeat an ecounter than killing enemies.

[Schylerwalker]

Hell, in my opinion, the WARMAGE is overpowered, ESPECIALLY when using the Orb spells. Owwwww.

For example, a Warmage with Spell Focus (evocation), Spellcasting Prodigy, and Weapon Focus (any orb), and a good 20 Int, can be doing HUGE amounts of damage. And he not worry about rogues with evasion, cause it's a touch attack, and most people's touch AC sucks in comparison to their normal one.

The warmage has decent hitpoints, a reasonable BAB, plenty of spells, and their spells that do buttloads of damage in comparison to other evokers. With his lack of skill points, he may not be able to do anything else besides blast stuff...but when you ask him to that, he excels beyond reason.

[Talic]

How do beguilers emulate the Trapfinding ability?

[Tempest Fennac]

They have the ability at level 1, and both Disable Device and Search are class skills for them, so they are a good choice if you need someone to take care of traps.

[tyckspoon]

Hell, in my opinion, the WARMAGE is overpowered, ESPECIALLY when using the Orb spells. Owwwww.

For example, a Warmage with Spell Focus (evocation), Spellcasting Prodigy, and Weapon Focus (any orb), and a good 20 Int, can be doing HUGE amounts of damage. And he not worry about rogues with evasion, cause it's a touch attack, and most people's touch AC sucks in comparison to their normal one.

The warmage has decent hitpoints, a reasonable BAB, plenty of spells, and their spells that do buttloads of damage in comparison to other evokers. With his lack of skill points, he may not be able to do anything else besides blast stuff...but when you ask him to that, he excels beyond reason.

:smallconfused: This might be true if Warmage Edge applied to each individual damage die of a spell, but it doesn't. Your Warmage gets (xd6) +5 points of damage over anybody else, not x(d6+5). That's not really a major edge at anything other than the lowest levels where you probably don't have a 20 Int anyway, and it doesn't come anywhere near making up for dealing with the Warmage's restricted spells-known list. Also, why Weapon Focus? You're already benefiting from attacking touch ACs, and there are plenty of other feats you might get more use of (other Sudden Metamagics, Improved Edge? Warmage has enough to deal with without gimping him with bad feat choices.)

[Frosty]

If he thinks Warmages are overpowered, then let him play the warmage. Somebody has to take the role nobody wants else wants right?

[Leon]

You don't have a party face either

Party Face is a over rated need - anyone with half a brain in the party can handle social situations without needing CHA or putting points into skills

[Wordmiser]

Schylerwalker Hell, in my opinion, the WARMAGE is overpowered, ESPECIALLY when using the Orb spells. Owwwww.

For example, a Warmage with Spell Focus (evocation), Spellcasting Prodigy, and Weapon Focus (any orb), and a good 20 Int, can be doing HUGE amounts of damage. And he not worry about rogues with evasion, cause it's a touch attack, and most people's touch AC sucks in comparison to their normal one.

The warmage has decent hitpoints, a reasonable BAB, plenty of spells, and their spells that do buttloads of damage in comparison to other evokers. With his lack of skill points, he may not be able to do anything else besides blast stuff...but when you ask him to that, he excels beyond reason. Now if he could only do his job half as well as a Sorcerer or Wizard, you'd have a point. As it is, there is no reason to play a Warmage.

Yeah, the Orb spells aren't as bad as some other options if you want a Blaster character, but why not just use a Focused Specialist (Conjuration) Wizard (drop Illusion, Enchantment and Necromancy)? The Wizard would have an equal number of spells per day, a wider spell list (even with Focused Specialist; the Warmage spell list only has about a half-dozen different spells), a better casting stat, more prestige-class potential, better class abilities (Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar and the option of taking real metamagic feats trump 1/day marginal damage increases every time), faster spell progression and access to the actually worthwhile blaster spells.

[edit:] And is the effort invested in that 20 Int really worth an extra 5 damage? Or is one of your precious feats really worth +1 to hit? You have Metamagic feats (and, of course, Rapid Metamagic) which are much much more valuable than that miniscule situational Weapon Focus bonus.

[Craig1f]

Party Face is a over rated need - anyone with half a brain in the party can handle social situations without needing CHA or putting points into skills

That really depends on the DM, and how seriously he takes diplomacy/bluff/sense motive rolls.

If, for example, you're trying to convince the captain of a merchant ship that it's in his best interest to help us raid a warship, you might want to have a high diplomacy score.

If your DM likes to railroad you, then social skills are meaningless, and you don't need a face.

[Wordmiser]

If your DM likes to railroad you, then social skills are meaningless, and you don't need a face....Or if your DM decides that dice rolls determine the logic of a character's statements and arguments rather than the players' reasoning.

[Craig1f]

...Or if your DM decides that dice rolls determine the logic of a character's statements and arguments rather than the players' reasoning.

Those would be called "modifiers". That's why you shouldn't let the most socially inept person in the group play the part of the "party-face", because their diplomacy rank won't help them.

If you say to the captain, straight up "we're from the adventurer's guild, pursuing a criminal. He's on that ship, and we need to get to him. We can pay you 2000gp for your assistance. We'll swing in to intercept him at night, and we assure you we're up to the task, and you will survive. You will be paid by the Adventurer's Guild upon return to Great Bay. Here are our credentials."

Now, if the DM is railroading you, he'll have already decided that the captain will agree.

If the DM wants to RP, he can consider "ok. You're being honest, so no bluff check. He sees the credentials. He's from Great Bay, so there is some patriotism. You helped him fight off the sea monster. On the other hand, he's heard that that ship has cannons. He's not equipped to fight, nor are his men. And he's risking mutiny, as his first mate is eager to take over. He's also got well more than 8000gp worth of goods on his ship that he's eager to sell. Roll a diplomacy check. Thinking to himself --- Lower than 15, no chance, and you have to catch up to the BBEG on land, where he will likely have more support. 16-25, maybe, you'll have to do some more convincing. 25+, and you're in good shape."

So we roll in the 30s, the guy says "4000gp, and you have a deal". If we'd rolled in the 20s, it probably would have cost 6000-8000gp.

We didn't have a persuasive argument, unless he knew that we would have taken the ship by force if he turned us down. How else do you RP that besides setting a DC, and rolling?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The same way you RP getting the party cleric to heal the party fighter. BY ROLEPLAYING. Can you tell I hate mental stats?

[Wordmiser]

How else do you RP that besides setting a DC, and rolling?Are you being ironic? If not, I second Sstoopidtallkid's statement: the social skills are all broken (Diplomacy being the worst offender), a DM needs to use other means.
I use them to modify NPC reactions, but not to determine the reactions.
I've only seen them used as-written by first-time DMs (or with the types who run Epic Evil campaigns where the players sit around giggling while decribing their characters lopping commoners to pieces).

Can you tell I hate mental stats?
+1

[Kioran]

Hell, in my opinion, the WARMAGE is overpowered, ESPECIALLY when using the Orb spells. Owwwww.

For example, a Warmage with Spell Focus (evocation), Spellcasting Prodigy, and Weapon Focus (any orb), and a good 20 Int, can be doing HUGE amounts of damage. And he not worry about rogues with evasion, cause it's a touch attack, and most people's touch AC sucks in comparison to their normal one.

The warmage has decent hitpoints, a reasonable BAB, plenty of spells, and their spells that do buttloads of damage in comparison to other evokers. With his lack of skill points, he may not be able to do anything else besides blast stuff...but when you ask him to that, he excels beyond reason.

The Warmage is an NPC-class, almost at least. He has only marginally better HD than a Wizard (ooh - a d6, but still only one good save and 0.5 BAB, with 2 ranks/lvl to boot), but with a spellcasting list inferior to a bards in effect (and seriously inferior to the beguilers or any other full caster/limited list full caster). If they gave the Warmage 0.75 BAB, a good Fort Save and a d8, he might be actually good at what he does, but right now.......
He´s depressing. rocks at lvl 1-6, but beyond that, a Warmage is rather pathetic.