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Collin152
2008-01-23, 08:12 PM
Statue. The spell.
I can never remember it. I think of transmutation spells, and it never comes to mind. I think of any spell, it lays forgotten. I look over the spell list, and bam! Wow! Each time it's a new disapointment.
So, this thread serves a dual purpose; have any of you put this spell to good use?
Secondly, are there any spells you really have trouble remembring exists?

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 08:15 PM
I remember statue actually being interesting and occasionally even useful in 2e. Too bad it sucks now.

Collin152
2008-01-23, 08:18 PM
Pray tell, what did it do?

AlterForm
2008-01-23, 08:23 PM
Interesting. Reminds me of the Tanooki Suit. :smallbiggrin:

I suppose it could be useful for a stealth mission into some rich manor, if you took your spellcaster with you to shrink item all the statues you had to replace.

Draz74
2008-01-23, 08:30 PM
Hmmm. It's a little lackluster, but I didn't think it was that bad.

Compare to Stoneskin (a decent mid-powered spell):

No material component!!!
Level 7 instead of Level 4. :smallfrown:
Transmutation instead of Abjuration. This one's a wash; no one in their right mind would ban either school.
Hours/level instead of 10 minutes/level. Plus it doesn't run out after absorbing 150 damage!
Reduces each attack by 8 damage instead of 10. Hmmm.
Works vs. all types of damage, including magical damage (e.g. evocation spells) rather than just weapon damage. Unless they bypass hardness, like admantine. Good.
You have to keep using free actions to turn the spell on and off so you can act. This is annoying, but its mechanical effect is minor (but it exists: you can't use immediate actions very well, and the spell won't protect you from Attacks of Opportunity).
Doubles as a utility spell, in case you need to disguise yourself as a statue in a castle or sink very fast in water.


All put together ... yeah. It's not the best spell, but neither is it the worst.

Collin152
2008-01-23, 08:32 PM
So, you turn to stone, act, then change back?
Well, there goes the concept of these turns occuring at the same time.

Indon
2008-01-23, 09:44 PM
Works vs. all types of damage, including magical damage (e.g. evocation spells) rather than just weapon damage. Unless they bypass hardness, like admantine. Good.

And causes you to take damage like an object - 1/2 damage from fire and lightning, 1/4 damage from cold.

Edit: Also... are hardness and damage reduction cumulative? You might be able to have both. O.O

Balkash
2008-01-23, 10:28 PM
We had an ogre mage in our party. He inviso, fly, hover above the enemy's main meat shield. Statue. Get hit by a large statue from 30 ft up. He was really dead.

Draz74
2008-01-23, 11:39 PM
And causes you to take damage like an object - 1/2 damage from fire and lightning, 1/4 damage from cold.

That's a very reasonable interpretation of the spell, though unfortunately not spelled out explicitly in the description. As a DM, I would probably side with you, but some DMs probably wouldn't. *sigh*

Voyager_I
2008-01-23, 11:41 PM
I know the game doesn't even begin to cover it, but how do you think the average person-shaped statue would handle a three-story fall? Especially assuming he hand individual arms, legs, fingers, etc.

Now imagine what would happen to a large person-shaped statue.

Mewtarthio
2008-01-23, 11:42 PM
You know what would be awesome? A race of people under a permanent, tenacious statue effect.

EvilElitest
2008-01-23, 11:44 PM
You know what would be awesome? A race of people under a permanent, tenacious statue effect.

All handle culture, you handle history

See you in the homebrew section?

from
EE

SilentNight
2008-01-23, 11:50 PM
All handle culture, you handle history

See you in the homebrew section?

from
EE
Looking forward to it. Le me know if you need help.

EvilElitest
2008-01-23, 11:52 PM
Looking forward to it. Le me know if you need help.

1. Great avater, like that character
2. I'd love some help, anyone interested PM me and i'll compile it but i'd love help
from
EE

Rigon
2008-01-24, 12:55 AM
You know what would be awesome? A race of people under a permanent, tenacious statue effect.

uhm, Gargoyles?

Khanderas
2008-01-24, 08:05 AM
uhm, Gargoyles?
Now that was a good animated series.

Edit: or perhaps you ment the MonsterManual Gargoyle. They are kinda cool too.

AmberVael
2008-01-24, 08:58 AM
Upon reflection, I think it was amusing that my reaction to this thread was "Wait, what spell? :smallconfused:"
>>

So, having looked it up and refreshed my memory, I have to agree that it is a terrible spell. I mean, by that level you've got so many more things that are worthwhile! Who wants to be able to change into a statue and back when you could, say, use polymorph instead? I mean really, it's just a better option.
Sure, statue is interesting, but get some DR and the ability to move and you'll be better off.
Granted, I'm comparing it to polymorph, but I'd rather use Bear's Endurance, Mass, by that level. Hardness 8? Oh look, I just gave everyone 28 hp, bonus to con checks, and they can still move. I like that last part. Moving, you know.

AmberVael
2008-01-24, 09:03 AM
Upon reflection, I think it was amusing that my reaction to this thread was "Wait, what spell? :smallconfused:"
>>

So, having looked it up and refreshed my memory, I have to agree that it is a terrible spell. I mean, by that level you've got so many more things that are worthwhile! Who wants to be able to change into a statue and back when you could, say, use polymorph instead? I mean really, it's just a better option.
Sure, statue is interesting, but get some DR and the ability to move and you'll be better off.
Granted, I'm comparing it to polymorph, but I'd rather use Bear's Endurance, Mass, by that level. Hardness 8? Oh look, I just gave everyone 28 hp, bonus to con checks, and they can still move. I like that last part. Moving, you know.

Indon
2008-01-24, 09:23 AM
Upon reflection, I think it was amusing that my reaction to this thread was "Wait, what spell? :smallconfused:"
>>

So, having looked it up and refreshed my memory, I have to agree that it is a terrible spell. I mean, by that level you've got so many more things that are worthwhile! Who wants to be able to change into a statue and back when you could, say, use polymorph instead? I mean really, it's just a better option.
Sure, statue is interesting, but get some DR and the ability to move and you'll be better off.
Granted, I'm comparing it to polymorph, but I'd rather use Bear's Endurance, Mass, by that level. Hardness 8? Oh look, I just gave everyone 28 hp, bonus to con checks, and they can still move. I like that last part. Moving, you know.

The spell says you can transform out of the statue form, take an action, then transform back during your turn.

Plus, Statue could continue to effect you while Polymorphed/Shapechanged. It doesn't even need to be extended in order to last all day, thanks to the hour/level duration.

Oh, and in addition to the energy type resistance, you'd take 1/2 damage from non-siege scale ranged weapons.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-24, 09:28 AM
Wind Wall does that better.

AmberVael
2008-01-24, 09:33 AM
The spell says you can transform out of the statue form, take an action, then transform back during your turn.
That's correct. But when you're in statue form, you can't move. You've effectively got a dexterity of 0, because you're an object. Not appealing to me. Furthermore, you suddenly have a break DC, which I'm not really into either.
"I turn into a statue!"
"...the Orc Barbarian makes a break check. He succeeds. You are now in two pieces."
"Well damn."


Plus, Statue could continue to effect you while Polymorphed/Shapechanged. It doesn't even need to be extended in order to last all day, thanks to the hour/level duration.
Ah yes. A long duration spell that puts me into an inconvenient position whenever I use it. I'll definitely prepare that over something else.


Oh, and in addition to the energy type resistance, you'd take 1/2 damage from non-siege scale ranged weapons.

But on the other hand, you're practically guaranteed to fail any reflex check to avoid those energies. I'd rather be able to make a reflex check most of the time and keep my AC than turn into a statue. Furthermore, someone used a level 7 spell slot on this. It's a waste of resources. And again, as for ranged weapons, they may deal less damage, but they've got a huge bonus to hit against you now. More successful attacks = more damage. Granted, it might not be quite as much, but this isn't worth wasting a level 7 spell on.

Indon
2008-01-24, 10:13 AM
That's correct. But when you're in statue form, you can't move. You've effectively got a dexterity of 0, because you're an object. Not appealing to me. Furthermore, you suddenly have a break DC, which I'm not really into either.
"I turn into a statue!"
"...the Orc Barbarian makes a break check. He succeeds. You are now in two pieces."
"Well damn."

The break DC listed for a 1-foot thick wall of stone is 35. I don't think 20's are automatic successes for break attempts, either.


But on the other hand, you're practically guaranteed to fail any reflex check to avoid those energies. I'd rather be able to make a reflex check most of the time and keep my AC than turn into a statue.

You do get a saving throw - how the heck does a living statue count as a nonmagical, unattended item? It seems your save would be 2+(1/2 CL), as a magical item (which, as you are dispellable, you pretty much are automatically), and that's if you were ruled to be unattended by yourself, which is already stretching things.


Furthermore, someone used a level 7 spell slot on this. It's a waste of resources. And again, as for ranged weapons, they may deal less damage, but they've got a huge bonus to hit against you now. More successful attacks = more damage. Granted, it might not be quite as much, but this isn't worth wasting a level 7 spell on.

You halve the ranged damage before applying hardness. And nobody's commented on if hardness and damage reduction can stack or not - nothing in the hardness or damage reduction implies that they do not, since hardness is not described as a form of damage reduction (in fact, they are described quite differently). So now you can cast Stoneskin on top of Statue and when struck with a ranged weapon, unless it can deal 36 damage (or the arrows are adamantium - don't use the spell around adamantium), it can't hurt you at all.

And what else are you going to put in a level 7 slot? It's kind of a slow level for spells (And don't tell me Forcecage. Seriously, it has a thousand GP material component. You ain't going to use that spell very often). I guess you could metamagic a lower-level spell, but other than that and a mandatory Teleport, what else you gonna put there?

SilentNight
2008-01-24, 10:22 AM
I'm to lazy to pull out my PHb and join the crunch debate but as for fluff I remember liking the spell when I first read through them all. It is kinda cool to be able to become a statue at will and it would be great for infiltration. Rich people barely remember of they bought any statues much less what they were of.

AmberVael
2008-01-24, 10:24 AM
The break DC listed for a 1-foot thick wall of stone is 35. I don't think 20's are automatic successes for break attempts, either.
Granted, but by the time you are using 7th level spells, a good barbarian/monster is going to be pretty crazy. Just the idea of giving someone that chance is not fun.



You do get a saving throw - how the heck does a living statue count as a nonmagical, unattended item? It seems your save would be 2+(1/2 CL), as a magical item (which, as you are dispellable, you pretty much are automatically), and that's if you were ruled to be unattended by yourself, which is already stretching things.
But you're not a magical item- you are normal stone with a few spells cast onto you, not an item imbued with almighty power.
Even if you argue that you get your own save, which is what I was meaning to imply, you lose all the dex bonus you have, and then add a -5 on top of that for (as I stated earlier) having a dexterity of 0. That's a pretty harsh penalty.



You halve the ranged damage before applying hardness. And nobody's commented on if hardness and damage reduction can stack or not - nothing in the hardness or damage reduction implies that they do not, since hardness is not described as a form of damage reduction (in fact, they are described quite differently). So now you can cast Stoneskin on top of Statue and when struck with a ranged weapon, unless it can deal 36 damage (or the arrows are adamantium - don't use the spell around adamantium), it can't hurt you at all.
So what? You're still going to be hit by everything. Better to use Stoneskin on its own and not have everything hit you. It may prevent some damage, yes, but not enough for it to be useful.


And what else are you going to put in a level 7 slot? It's kind of a slow level for spells (And don't tell me Forcecage. Seriously, it has a thousand GP material component. You ain't going to use that spell very often). I guess you could metamagic a lower-level spell, but other than that and a mandatory Teleport, what else you gonna put there?

Um... lets see. What else would I put in that slot?
Banishment might be handy, if limited in use.
Teleport, Greater.
Arcane Sight, Greater (great spell, in my opinion. Comes in handy a lot.)
Invisibility, Mass.
Ethereal Jaunt.
Reverse Gravity (so fun. Awesome battlefield control)
Limited Wish (300xp for 'anything within reason I might really need right now').
Shadow Conjuration, Greater.
Any quickened spell of third level (where alot of nice spells are at).

I think I'll choose something else, thanks.

Indon
2008-01-24, 10:46 AM
Granted, but by the time you are using 7th level spells, a good barbarian/monster is going to be pretty crazy. Just the idea of giving someone that chance is not fun.

Avoid things with 40+ Strength and you'll be fine. So, extremely old dragons, and highly twinked out Warhulks/Hulking Hurlers/Other laundry lists of strength-boosting PrC's.


But you're not a magical item- you are normal stone with a few spells cast onto you, not an item imbued with almighty power.
You know, in the magical item creation rules it's noted that items are enchanted by casting the applicable spell on the item a whole lot (along with the xp expenditure and such, of course).


Even if you argue that you get your own save, which is what I was meaning to imply, you lose all the dex bonus you have, and then add a -5 on top of that for (as I stated earlier) having a dexterity of 0. That's a pretty harsh penalty.
True. In fact, the unattended-yet-magical item interpretation would probably be the most advantageous, amusingly enough. You'd end up with a higher reflex save than a Wizard would normally be expected to get.



So what? You're still going to be hit by everything. Better to use Stoneskin on its own and not have everything hit you. It may prevent some damage, yes, but not enough for it to be useful.
I'd say that you aren't going to commonly come across opponents which can deal 36 damage with a single ranged attack. While there are plenty of ways Wizards can be more or less immune to various forms of damage, this is definitely a fairly good one.

AmberVael
2008-01-24, 10:55 AM
I'd say that you aren't going to commonly come across opponents which can deal 36 damage with a single ranged attack. While there are plenty of ways Wizards can be more or less immune to various forms of damage, this is definitely a fairly good one.

As this is really the only argument you have going for you now, I'll just address it.
There are many ways, as you said. This isn't a good one, because it leaves you vulnerable in other areas, and is extremely high level for a spell. Windwall would do the trick nicely. Besides, that '36' damage assumes you have Stoneskin on. I mean, assuming you have that up every time you cast Statue assumes that you can drop 250gp every single moment, which would basically be the same thing as arguing I can use Force Cage all the time.
So lets look at this spell on its own, yes?
It effectively gives you DR 16/ranged weapons. If you sacrifice all of your dexterity and become an inanimate object.
Not. Worth. It. Someone could use Shatter on you and it would hurt terribly. How about any spells that can shape stone? I mean really, this makes you vulnerable to so many things and only gives you minor bonuses, which you could easily get from other spells at lower levels.
I'll use my level 7 spell slots on Ethereal Jaunt instead.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-24, 11:11 AM
And what else are you going to put in a level 7 slot? It's kind of a slow level for spells (And don't tell me Forcecage. Seriously, it has a thousand GP material component. You ain't going to use that spell very often). I guess you could metamagic a lower-level spell, but other than that and a mandatory Teleport, what else you gonna put there?

Power Word blind is pretty much auto-work at that level. Few have 201 hps to be immune. Plus, fireball becomes useful in combo.

Fireball them, now PW Blind works. Blinding is a very useful ability.

Indon
2008-01-24, 11:15 AM
It effectively gives you DR 16/ranged weapons.

And Lightning, and Fire, and DR 32 vs. Cold, and immunity to piercing weapons.

Also, if you have no Dex score, you're probably also immune to ability drain, negative levels, and effects like that.

AmberVael
2008-01-24, 11:28 AM
And Lightning, and Fire, and DR 32 vs. Cold, and immunity to piercing weapons.

Also, if you have no Dex score, you're probably also immune to ability drain, negative levels, and effects like that.
As I already argued, the effect of having energy resistances (except for Cold) are likely negated by your inability to make saves, which would pretty much have the same effect.
You are not immune to piercing weapons as an object. I've no idea where you got that.
Also, as a statue I guess you would gain those latter properties. Of course, in looking back at the description of the spell, I find it so completely and utterly vague on any of these issues at all I'm inclined just to drop it so I won't have to deal with the hassle.
I think I will.
I'll just say that I believe there are too many weaknesses, too little benefit, and too high of a cost.

Indon
2008-01-24, 11:36 AM
You are not immune to piercing weapons as an object. I've no idea where you got that.
generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject) It's not total immunity, I guess, but it's up to DM call.


Also, as a statue I guess you would gain those latter properties. Of course, in looking back at the description of the spell, I find it so completely and utterly vague on any of these issues at all I'm inclined just to drop it so I won't have to deal with the hassle.

That's definitely true. Based on how a DM treats the spell, it could range anywhere from 'meh' to very powerful.

Orak
2008-01-24, 11:42 AM
Since it is a free action to switch into and out of statue form it seem logical that you could switch out of statue form if you are being targeted by a magical attack that you want to be able to dodge and then switch back in after the attack is resolved.

AmberVael
2008-01-24, 11:45 AM
generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject) It's not total immunity, I guess, but it's up to DM call.

All I have to say is if that makes it so picks can't harm stone, I'm going to laugh so hard... :smalltongue:
It's rather similar to the fact that a DnD group of mine figured out that a gimp suit would protect you from whips...
>>
Moving on.

Yes, I forget about this spell all the time.

Edit: ^: That would require an immediate action, not a free action. Free actions take place on your turn.

AlterForm
2008-01-24, 05:46 PM
Can someone point me to where it says you can only perform free actions on your turn? I'm sure I remember seeing it somewhere, and the SRD entries under swift and immediate actions suggest you can take free actions when it isn't not your turn (they don't come out and say specifically when you can take a free action), but I can't find a specific quote for free actions.

:smallannoyed:

Collin152
2008-01-24, 06:24 PM
All handle culture, you handle history

See you in the homebrew section?

from
EE

Mmmm, a race that uses a 7th level spell at will. A pathetic spell, but hey, fun.

McMindflayer
2008-01-24, 09:45 PM
... Apparently everyone is missing the best thing about this spell. TRAPS!

You walk into a room with 4 statues.
"We walk into the center of the room"
"I examine a statue"
"So do I"
The statue's come alive and attack!

Instant suprise round, and if you want you can have them cast poisonous gas spells and then turn back into statues. Thus making the party flee from teh poison, while the statue's are unharmed. Then put the key to the door on the other side on one of them, and make it the only way to get to the treasure. I would call that memorable, if not hard. (This also applies to underwater fights. The PC's struggle to hold their breath, while fighting beings that don't have to worry about it, or vice versa)

Secondly, There's a gas attack happening to you. Statue.

The great thing is you can cast this on yourself at the beginning of the dungeon. For the next 15 or so hours you can, at will, turn into a statue that doens't need to breathe or eat. This statue can look like the decor.

If it didn't have "If you so desire" At the end of the second to last sentance, I would say it'd be a great offensive spell.

The Fighter in his heavy armor rushes at the spellcaster swiping for a lot of damage. The caster goes "ow" Then touches the fighter "Statue" Then takes a 5-foot step back. And poof. No more threat from the fighter till you get within 5 feet.

But then this spell is VERY vague. First thing I wonder about is "How does the subject know it can become normal again?" The second thing is "If i turn to Solid stone, does that mean I get all those nice abilities like gargoyles" And thridly "What does the spell mean 'breaking off an arm constitutes heavy damage'? Do I lose my arm? or if I take a lot of HP damage I then lose my arm?"