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F.H. Zebedee
2008-01-25, 01:35 AM
This was mentioned in the "Wizard in the Cold" thread, so I decided to put one up. There's two lists here:
Things a Commoner can't survive, that any normal person should.
and
Things a Commoner can survive a majority of the time, though it should kill them.

List 1: Things Not to Have in a Commoner Safe House:
-Saunas. They die of heat within minutes.
-Cats. Housecats can tear a commoner to pieces.

List 2: "I'm still okay!"
-Rattlesnakes: Apparently only deal a small ammount of Con damage.

I'll go research a few more and add them tomorrow/Saturday.

The_Werebear
2008-01-25, 02:05 AM
For the venom, your HP goes down when your Con does. I think it can drop a commoner's Con Mod enough to kill them if they fail even one of the saves.

Nebo_
2008-01-25, 02:10 AM
Negative Con can't reduce your HP to less than one per HD. The bite damage could still kill them, though.

The_Werebear
2008-01-25, 02:38 AM
If they fail the first save, their con gets dropped enough so that the bite damage gets them bleeding out.

1 point of Con damage puts a 10 CON commoner down to a -1 modifier, which drops the average HP of 2 to 1. The one damage from the bite drops them to 0. Most people panic when they get bitten, thus taking an action to either run or to freak out. This causes them to drop to -1 and start bleeding out.

Still, it is the bite that is dropping them, not the venom.

Talic
2008-01-25, 02:55 AM
List 1:

Ladders. The average 10 foot fall will kill a commoner 2 times out of 3. 5 out of 6 if they panic when staggered.

Voyager_I
2008-01-25, 03:17 AM
Don't Have:

As a commoner, make sure to never have anything in your house that could be of any value to anybody. This especially includes anything that could be used as any kind of slave, such as a wife, children, or yourself (become permanently incorporeal if at all possible). You will undoubtedly be murdered and have your village burned down if you have any of these, because if you aren't slaughtered and pillaged then the PC's never come to avenge your insignificant life, in which case you don't even get to exist.

Note that this is a Catch-22.


Also, avoid any and all ledges or drops of a height approaching or exceeding ten feet. This includes two-story buildings, wells, ladders, roofs, trees, and particularly large rocks. Falling from anything taller than a foot stool will almost certainly leave you bleeding to death. Rather than being an innocent game for burly farm boys, "Chicken" is in fact a blood sport better fitted for the Flavian Amphitheater. If you play chicken, you will get pregnant and die.

In addition, trees are incredibly difficult to climb. Combined with the near-guaranteed lethality of any fall, they're the Commoner's equivalent of the Tomb of Horrors. Children are protected by their immaterial nature before reaching majority, and it is suggested that the high rate of mortality among teenagers is due to continuing with their now-lethal childhood antics. It is recommended that you cut down all trees in your area as a service to the community. Exercise extreme caution while doing this, as even the slightest workplace injury will likely be fatal.

Avoid low doorways and ceilings wherever possible, as your incredibly frail nature means a moment's inattentiveness while walking could be the end of your insignificant life, and PC's do not generally seek vindication against poor hut design.

Likewise, fire equates to instant death. Never use, make, or approach fire.

SoD
2008-01-25, 03:47 AM
The last one reminds me of a mate of mine, he was a barbarian and, every bar we went into...he'd challenge random NPCs to a contest...his wager, about 10 pp. Theirs? Whatever they could afford. The contest? See who can hold their hand over a candle flame for the longest. Lots of dying commoners.

Eventually, the DM got sick of it, and the barbarian ended up challenging a Drunken Master to this. While at third level. Sort of similar to when the warforged picked up an epic level whore.

Jack Zander
2008-01-25, 03:52 AM
If they fail the first save, their con gets dropped enough so that the bite damage gets them bleeding out.

DC 10? That's a 50% chance even for a commoner.

Darkantra
2008-01-25, 03:59 AM
There's a reason why people fear old cat-ladies. In D&D, they run the small town mobs.

L1 Commoner: I-I'm sorry ma'am the rains destroyed my crops and I didn't earn enough.
Cat Lady: Oh, that's too bad, Patches and Scruffles and Mittens don't like that at all, do they Snookums? (nuzzles a cat)
L1 Commoner: (looks around in terror, not noticing the cats due to their hideously high Hide and Move Silently checks) No! Please! Not Pat-
Patches: Rrooaw! (Full Attacks)
Scruffles: Meow! (Full Attacks)
Mittens: Hsst! (Full Attacks)

In fact, I think that there's only one creature in the MM that a commoner could defeat, the Toad. If only because the Toad has no natural attacks. Even then the commoner has to find the freaking Toad with it's +21 Hide modifier, so the Toad can win by hiding until an angry cat strolls by.

The only way that any commoner has any chance at all to defeat any animal is to try and grapple it, praying to their gods that the animal misses its AoO.

Hmm... it's really bloody hard to find a situation that a commoner could survive.

Falrin
2008-01-25, 09:26 AM
A commoner survives:

Getting hit with the 'flat end' (Read: Nonlethal Damage) of a Greataxe by a 42 STR, leap attacking, power attacking, shocktrooping stone giant barabarian.

sikyon
2008-01-25, 09:41 AM
If they fail the first save, their con gets dropped enough so that the bite damage gets them bleeding out.

1 point of Con damage puts a 10 CON commoner down to a -1 modifier, which drops the average HP of 2 to 1. The one damage from the bite drops them to 0. Most people panic when they get bitten, thus taking an action to either run or to freak out. This causes them to drop to -1 and start bleeding out.

Still, it is the bite that is dropping them, not the venom.

Actually The commoner's average HP is 2.5 normally, and -1 con modifier drops his average starting HP to 1.75. Unless he gets full HP for first level, which I can't remember.

Kioran
2008-01-25, 09:57 AM
If they fail the first save, their con gets dropped enough so that the bite damage gets them bleeding out.

1 point of Con damage puts a 10 CON commoner down to a -1 modifier, which drops the average HP of 2 to 1. The one damage from the bite drops them to 0. Most people panic when they get bitten, thus taking an action to either run or to freak out. This causes them to drop to -1 and start bleeding out.

Still, it is the bite that is dropping them, not the venom.

The chance that they actually fail to stabilize for 9 subsequent rounds is 0.9 the power of 9, or actually 38.7% - so most commoners would survive being bitten by a rattlesnake, either through good HP rolls or stabilizing before they die. Just my 2cp.

SMDVogrin
2008-01-25, 10:00 AM
Hmm... it's really bloody hard to find a situation that a commoner could survive.

Joe would disagree with you:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=763260

Telonius
2008-01-25, 10:03 AM
Can survive: swimming along just under the surface of a lake at one-quarter speed for 2 minutes.

Can't survive: twelve seconds in a bar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#smokeEffects). :smallbiggrin:

Project_Mayhem
2008-01-25, 10:12 AM
Can't survive: twelve seconds in a bar.

except in England as of last July. Instead their merely nauseated by the smell of sweat and stale beer

Icewalker
2008-01-25, 11:00 AM
I just make my commoners with a lot more than 2 hp, because these are ridiculous. Usually in the range of 4 to 7.

Funkyodor
2008-01-25, 11:27 AM
Yeah, commoners have to fear the 10 foot fall, but...

But you would imagine the local butcher to have the highest mortality rate, until you consider the fact that rolling a 1 never does damage to you, so they never get cut on accident, lose fingers, get workmans comp. Also, there is no chance that a commoner will ever fall off a ladder, since rolling a 1 doesn't mean failure and succeeds at the ladder success DC. They can even climb a 500 foot knotted rope up a wall with no fear. Even if the ladder is slippery, there is only a 5% chance of falling. Man, what a life.

Falrin
2008-01-25, 11:41 AM
A commonner will survive when

-DM plot asks

A commoner will get killed when

-DM plot asks.
-insulting a PC
-being annoying
-looking suspicous
-stealing from the PC
-when befriend/in love/family with a PC (By BBeG)

Theli
2008-01-25, 12:46 PM
This was mentioned in the "Wizard in the Cold" thread, so I decided to put one up. There's two lists here:
Things a Commoner can't survive, that any normal person should.
and
Things a Commoner can survive a majority of the time, though it should kill them.

List 1: Things Not to Have in a Commoner Safe House:
-Saunas. They die of heat within minutes.
-Cats. Housecats can tear a commoner to pieces.

You might have to take saunas off that list. According to the Rules Compendium (and Sandstorm I think) the commoner will take absolutely no damage from temperatures up to 180°F as long as they have improvised shelter. (Which, arguably, a sauna could qualify as.)

The_Werebear
2008-01-25, 01:37 PM
Ok- Most people survive- A solid hit to the stomach with a baseball bat. A commoner with 2 or 3 hp will be disabled or put into negatives with a hit from a club by someone with average or slightly above average strength.

Jack Zander
2008-01-25, 01:47 PM
Ok- Most people survive- A solid hit to the stomach with a baseball bat. A commoner with 2 or 3 hp will be disabled or put into negatives with a hit from a club by someone with average or slightly above average strength.

But most people will probably throw up or fall unconscious from the hit if it's hard enough or if it hits in the right place. That's probably a critical though.

Fighteer
2008-01-25, 01:47 PM
Ok- Most people survive- A solid hit to the stomach with a baseball bat. A commoner with 2 or 3 hp will be disabled or put into negatives with a hit from a club by someone with average or slightly above average strength.
A modern baseball bat is not wielded precisely as a club. It's much lighter in general than the club described in the d20 rules. I'd give it 1d4 damage max instead of the 1d6 of a regular club*. Besides, if you get hit full-on in the stomach with a baseball bat, you will be bleeding internally unless you are unusually tough (read: +1 or higher Con bonus). Internal bleeding can be fatal without treatment.

* Note that I have not read d20 modern, so I don't know if the baseball bat is given special treatment there. I merely know that it's not designed for hitting anything heavier than a baseball or softball and tends to break when used against larger objects. Metal bats are more resilient but not any heavier.

The_Werebear
2008-01-25, 02:03 PM
A club or a quarterstaff is counted as any stick of wood that you can beat someone with. That's why they are free. Both deal 1d6 damage. I don't see any reason why a Baseball bat would count as any different, especially if it was metal. You could probably count them as masterwork then. I've been hit with a baseball bat, and have stayed upright, if in pain. I don't consider myself any tougher than anyone else (thought I may be classed Expert instead of commoner)

Roderick_BR
2008-01-25, 02:25 PM
Also, avoid any and all ledges or drops of a height approaching or exceeding ten feet. This includes two-story buildings, wells, ladders, roofs, trees, and particularly large rocks.
To be fair, in real life, a two-story fall is enough to cripple a person for life, or even kill him, although there are cases of people that fell from buildings and got out without any permanent injury.


A commoner survives:
Getting hit with the 'flat end' (Read: Nonlethal Damage) of a Greataxe by a 42 STR, leap attacking, power attacking, shocktrooping stone giant barabarian.
Maybe, but if you deal too much damage, he'll take hours to wake up, effectivelly falling into a coma. If your strenght is around 16 or more, don't hit too hard the back of that commoner friend of you, or you can end up disabling him.

Apparently, you can't beat a commoner to death. Once you make him go uncouncious, you can keep punching him for days, and he'll just keep accumulating the nonlethal damage, untill something heals him, or you decide to make a coup-de-grace.
"Sir Bob, the prisioner is waking up again."
"Slap him again, Sir Ted, we just need to hold him for another hour or so, until the guard arrives to take him."

Fighteer
2008-01-25, 02:26 PM
Well, obviously picking up a stick and whacking someone with it isn't going to be automatically fatal. I've trained with a bo staff (same concept as a quarterstaff) and it takes a certain amount of effort to deliver a seriously damaging blow unless you hit a vital spot.

I like to think of the basic combat roll as attempting to hit someone as hard as physically possible, with the intent of doing the most damage you can. Most people would go down when hit by a baseball bat in this manner and not given any time to prepare or evade. Plus, the stomach isn't necessarily the best place to aim for. Sure, you can get a stun by hitting the solar plexus, but a blow to the chest breaks ribs, and a blow to the legs cripples.

As I like to point out, a successful attack roll doesn't mean you made physical contact with your target - it means you hit it well enough and hard enough to inflict meaningful injury. By core rules, an average commoner hitting another average commoner with a club-equivalent would fail to do significant damage 50% of the time, inflict a non-fatal injury 8-16% of the time (assuming 2 or 3 on the target's hit die), disable their opponent 8% of the time, with the remaining probability equaling a potentially fatal blow plus a very small (0.4% chance) of an instant kill (confirmed critical with a 6 on the damage roll).

Statistically that doesn't seem too bad, although I might be nice and let my commoners have max hp on their first die just to make them a bit less frail.

Also, the minimum damage rule, taken to the obvious logical extreme, means that a single ant could bite an adult human to death in 2 rounds.

Voyager_I
2008-01-25, 02:53 PM
Joe would disagree with you:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=763260

Joe has PC stats, a maximized first hit die, and a name. Most commoners have none of the above.

GoC
2008-01-25, 03:20 PM
I just make my commoners with a lot more than 2 hp, because these are ridiculous. Usually in the range of 4 to 7.

I just add Con score and size modifiers to hp.
This gives a cat 4 hp and a commoner 12hp.

WrstDmEvr
2008-01-25, 03:21 PM
A commoner can't survive a camel bite.

Or a dog bite.

Full list of animals which auto-kill commoners on hit
Ape
Baboon
Badger
Bears
Bison
Boars
Camels
Cheetahs
Crocodiles
Dogs
Eagles
Elephants
Horses
Hyenas
Leopards
Lions
Manta Ray
Mules
Porpoise
Rhinos
Sharks
Constrictor Snakes
Huge Vipers
Tigers
Whales
Wolves
Wolverines

Istari
2008-01-25, 03:22 PM
But yet a guy in real life fell 47 stories and survived.:smalleek:
He must have had either plot or pc levels :smallbiggrin:

Artanis
2008-01-25, 03:49 PM
Ooh, another one: starvation and thirst! According to the SRD, going too long without food and/or water will pile on nonlethal damage - potentially a LOT of nonlethal damage - but says nothing about killing them or dealing lethal damage. Same goes for cold and heat. So a Commoner can be crammed into an otherwise-empty freezer for twenty years, and then regain consciousness once somebody gets them a heated blanket and a bottle of Gatorade.

Felius
2008-01-25, 04:05 PM
Ooh, another one: starvation and thirst! According to the SRD, going too long without food and/or water will pile on nonlethal damage - potentially a LOT of nonlethal damage - but says nothing about killing them or dealing lethal damage. Same goes for cold and heat. So a Commoner can be crammed into an otherwise-empty freezer for twenty years, and then regain consciousness once somebody gets them a heated blanket and a bottle of Gatorade.

Except when it breaks the temperature limit. Then they're dead in minutes

Theli
2008-01-25, 04:18 PM
Actually, characters start taking lethal damage from heat and cold once the non-lethal damage exceeds the characters hitpoints.

Oddly, this doesn't seem to exist for starvation and thirst...or at least not in the SRD. I'll have to check my RC when I get home.

Chronos
2008-01-25, 04:21 PM
List 2: "I'm still okay!"
-Rattlesnakes: Apparently only deal a small ammount of Con damage.Rattlesnakes belong in the other list: Things which will kill D&D commoners a lot more often than in the real world. Rattlesnake bite lethality is only around 5%, even without treatment. There are other snakes whose bites are much worse, but those would have higher DCs, higher ability score damage, or both.

Or at least, they should. D&D snakes have poisons that get more dangerous as the snake gets bigger, whereas the opposite tends to be the case in our world. An asp is even smaller than a rattlesnake, but its bite is fairly lethal.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-25, 04:24 PM
If they fail the first save, their con gets dropped enough so that the bite damage gets them bleeding out.

1 point of Con damage puts a 10 CON commoner down to a -1 modifier, which drops the average HP of 2 to 1. The one damage from the bite drops them to 0. Most people panic when they get bitten, thus taking an action to either run or to freak out. This causes them to drop to -1 and start bleeding out.

Still, it is the bite that is dropping them, not the venom.

If an effect would cause your constitution modifier to lower, you lose an appropriate number of HP per HD but it stops at 0. Acquiring a negative Constitution modifier does not cause your HP to lower any more. I don't know
why this is, but it is.


Negative Con can't reduce your HP to less than one per HD. The bite damage could still kill them, though.

I think it can't reduce it to less than zero per HD.


Full list of animals which auto-kill commoners on hit

None of those are surprising. With the exception of the dog, any of those enraged animals is very very likely to kill your average person if they have a mind to. And even dogs can be very dangerous things. Ever seen Cujo? :smallbiggrin:

Newtkeeper
2008-01-25, 04:33 PM
None of those are surprising. With the exception of the dog, any of those enraged animals is very very likely to kill your average person if they have a mind to. And even dogs can be very dangerous things. Ever seen Cujo? :smallbiggrin:

What about the deadly housecat?

Theli
2008-01-25, 04:40 PM
I think it can't reduce it to less than zero per HD.

No, the minimum limit is definitely 1 per HD. They did this so you could give creatures abysmal con scores while avoiding giving them superior HD size (d4, d6, etc.) to match. (Oh, and also to avoid perma-killing a player character who just happened to roll natural ones for hp for several levels with a con penalty....)

So yeah, there's only 2 ways to kill through con damage. You either take the con score all the way to zero, or you damage them with regular damage for more than their number of hit dice and take them to the minimum one hp per hit dice.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-25, 04:42 PM
What about the deadly housecat?
That wasn't on his list.

Besides, I'm fairly certain that a housecat that WANTED to kill you would do so in such an unspeakable fashion that to even allude to it here would cause your very brains to boil inside your skull.

Housecats are evil.

Icewalker
2008-01-25, 04:52 PM
That wasn't on his list.

Besides, I'm fairly certain that a housecat that WANTED to kill you would do so in such an unspeakable fashion that to even allude to it here would cause your very brains to boil inside your skull.

Housecats are evil.

Pretty much. They are extremely fluffy though.

By RAW, one square yard of canvas falling from 70 ft. would deal 1d6 damage.

Or a holy symbol, thieves tools, a peasant's outfit, or two loafs of bread strapped together.

A falling cart has to hit a commoner from 20 ft. or more or it doesn't damage him. Same goes for a rowboat.

WrstDmEvr
2008-01-25, 07:45 PM
None of those are surprising. With the exception of the dog, any of those enraged animals is very very likely to kill your average person if they have a mind to. And even dogs can be very dangerous things. Ever seen Cujo? :smallbiggrin:

Camels? How many camel bites cause fatalities? How many manta ray headbutts kill?:smallbiggrin:


What about the deadly housecat?

Doesn't auto-kill. Only deals 1 damage per turn on regular attack, which is all it can manage if the commoner moves more than 5ft away on a turn.

Frosty
2008-01-25, 07:58 PM
Can't the Cat grapple the commoner to death?

Roderick_BR
2008-01-25, 08:09 PM
How many manta ray headbutts kill?:smallbiggrin:

One manta ray finished off Steve Irwin guy, so they are kinda dangerous :smalleek:

TheLogman
2008-01-25, 08:18 PM
Ya, but it scored a Critical hit for Max damage in a surprise round with its stinger, which deals more damage than the headbutt, and I think can be used with Weapon Finesse. Plus, a Manta would use Weapon Focus on it. A Manta Ray Headbutt shouldn't really do anything at all.

Personally, I think that damage from animals should deal Subdual damage in some cases, specially cat scratches, most slam/headbutts, ect.

Theli
2008-01-25, 08:20 PM
Can't the Cat grapple the commoner to death?

The cat is facing a -12 on the grapple check.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-25, 08:36 PM
No, the minimum limit is definitely 1 per HD. They did this so you could give creatures abysmal con scores while avoiding giving them superior HD size (d4, d6, etc.) to match. (Oh, and also to avoid perma-killing a player character who just happened to roll natural ones for hp for several levels with a con penalty....)

So yeah, there's only 2 ways to kill through con damage. You either take the con score all the way to zero, or you damage them with regular damage for more than their number of hit dice and take them to the minimum one hp per hit dice.

I think I misunderstood and misworded my post. I thought that you couldn't go below a +0 Con modifier. After looking at the SRD I realize my error. My gaming group is going to be unhappy.


From the SRD:
If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

Collin152
2008-01-25, 08:46 PM
One manta ray finished off Steve Irwin guy, so they are kinda dangerous :smalleek:

That would be a Stingray, as opposed to the gentle and helpless Manta rays.

EvilElitest
2008-01-25, 08:46 PM
But yet a guy in real life fell 47 stories and survived.:smalleek:
He must have had either plot or pc levels :smallbiggrin:

He knew feather fall
from
EE

Erinyes
2008-01-25, 08:50 PM
I usually set my commoners to max HP, with a possible +1 Con bonus.......unless my players are intentionally attacking a small town or village. Then it is a one hit kill.

Chronos
2008-01-25, 09:01 PM
Personally, I think that damage from animals should deal Subdual damage in some cases, specially cat scratches, most slam/headbutts, ect.My sister was once almost killed by a housecat. Even today, nearly 30 years later, she still has the scars. Admittedly, she was a child at the time, but that's still most definitely lethal damage that those claws do.

Neek
2008-01-25, 09:23 PM
Most animals are capable of killing, especially housecats (with sharp knives!!!), dogs (with nasty, pointy teeth), horses, camels, bulls, &c. One of the reasons they don't is simple: Humans have selected such wild creatures, and bred the love-of-humans into them. We are frail creatures. A fall from a 1 story house COULD kill you, as can a fall from the horse, or a good hit from a sling (which are quite lethal). We managed that by being clever.

Collin152
2008-01-25, 09:27 PM
Being clever is good and all, but I'd rather have that and muscle.
They say neaderthals had it.

Newtkeeper
2008-01-25, 09:30 PM
Besides, I'm fairly certain that a housecat that WANTED to kill you would do so in such an unspeakable fashion that to even allude to it here would cause your very brains to boil inside your skull.
.

True. But it would not do so with its claws; it would do so with minions. Housecats are the quintessential BBEG (or is that LBEC?).

Theli
2008-01-25, 10:11 PM
True. But it would not do so with its claws; it would do so with minions. Housecats are the quintessential BBEG (or is that LBEC?).

Indeed, now if only they could keep focused (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040317).

Parvum
2008-01-25, 10:26 PM
We are frail creatures. A fall from a 1 story house COULD kill you, as can a fall from the horse, or a good hit from a sling (which are quite lethal). We managed that by being clever.

Note to self: Stop being clever.

Additional: Wait, does this mean I'm invincible?

Extra Additional: Drink a tub of cyanide tomorrow.

Felius
2008-01-25, 11:42 PM
My sister was once almost killed by a housecat. Even today, nearly 30 years later, she still has the scars. Admittedly, she was a child at the time, but that's still most definitely lethal damage that those claws do.

Yes, but a D&D can kill a generic ADULT HEALTHY HUMAN most of the times, with only it's claws. That's why it's ridiculous.

GoC
2008-01-26, 12:02 AM
But yet a guy in real life fell 47 stories and survived.:smalleek:
He must have had either plot or pc levels :smallbiggrin:

Actualy I think the world record is something like 20,000 feet...

Theli
2008-01-26, 12:09 AM
Actually, characters start taking lethal damage from heat and cold once the non-lethal damage exceeds the characters hitpoints.

Oddly, this doesn't seem to exist for starvation and thirst...or at least not in the SRD. I'll have to check my RC when I get home.

Btw, I've found that the same applies to starvation and thirst as well. Once unconscious, non-lethal damage from these sources becomes lethal.

bugsysservant
2008-01-26, 12:14 AM
Yes, but a D&D can kill a generic ADULT HEALTHY HUMAN most of the times, with only it's claws. That's why it's ridiculous.

Well, they're nasty creatures, them D&Ds. If you don't believe me, read up on Jack Chick. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I was reading through this thread, and about the horrible instant death that is cats, and mine MEOWED OUTSIDE OF MY ROOM. :smalleek: Needless to say, I was terrified.

Darkantra
2008-01-26, 12:17 AM
I'd be interested in looking at 1st level commoner builds that could take on a cat. The most obvious one to me is a human commoner that takes Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. The touch AC of a cat is pretty damn high but if they can get the cat into a grapple then it's doomed.

Haha, I just got the image of commoner shock troops for when a town animal goes on a rampage, all those improvised weapons, they're lucky if they ever kill anything.

EvilElitest
2008-01-26, 12:25 AM
I'd be interested in looking at 1st level commoner builds that could take on a cat. The most obvious one to me is a human commoner that takes Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. The touch AC of a cat is pretty damn high but if they can get the cat into a grapple then it's doomed.

Haha, I just got the image of commoner shock troops for when a town animal goes on a rampage, all those improvised weapons, they're lucky if they ever kill anything.

I should not even bother to think up new game ideas, you people provide them all for me
from
EE

Darkantra
2008-01-26, 12:49 AM
I should not even bother to think up new game ideas, you people provide them all for me
from
EE

Hey, if you ever run a commoner campaign on the boards, let me know :smallsmile:. I'd like to try pitting a commoner against a vicious, bloodthirsty owl.

Aquillion
2008-01-26, 12:50 AM
Don't forget that a commoner is still entitled to a feat at first level... two if they're human.

What would be the best feats for them to take, I wonder? Surprisingly, Toughness looks pretty good... A human commoner who took Toughness twice would survive many of the things listed here. Likewise, the +2 skill bonus feats will help them a lot more than it helps PCs... in general, any flat nonscaling feat looks a lot better for a commoner who will be level 1 their whole life than it does for a PC.

Theli
2008-01-26, 12:57 AM
I'd be interested in looking at 1st level commoner builds that could take on a cat. The most obvious one to me is a human commoner that takes Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. The touch AC of a cat is pretty damn high but if they can get the cat into a grapple then it's doomed.

Haha, I just got the image of commoner shock troops for when a town animal goes on a rampage, all those improvised weapons, they're lucky if they ever kill anything.

Hey now...commoners are allowed proficiency in a single simple weapon... That could be a longspear for all ya know!

(1d8...x3 crit...two handed...reach weapon. Really not that bad.)



Yeah, the cat is a little bit of a problem. Though perhaps a feral one which strikes out against the common joe ought to be. The problem is that NPC Commoners with average Con would have 2.5 HP. (Rounded down, as usual.) It's CR 1/4, so you could say that 4 feral cats could pose a decent challenge to an adventuring party of 4...requiring 25% or so, of their resources. So if 1 cat seems to kinda be a match for a single level 1 PC. Then it's no surprise that non-heroic level 1 NPCs could have some trouble...

Ok, so... The cat needs to ambush the commoner to have the best chance. Although most people assume that it can get the ambush off with no difficulty due the shear absurdity of suspecting an innocent house cat. But this isn't exactly mandated by RAW...and not all other animals are as easily ignored, so why should they get this benefit? It's realism that demands it, but that really should be considered off-topic in a thread like this, that wants to find silly rule oversights.


So otherwise, it would require both an m.s. and a hide roll... ms is 8, hide is 16, or 20 in tall grass... The hide roll would suffer a -5 penalty, assuming that concealment is within 5 ft of the commoner. (And the commoner isn't actually standing in an area with partial concealment.) Otherwise it's an extra -5 per 5ft further. So this is far from guaranteed if you don't just give it to the cat.


Anyway, an attack of opportunity might be able to kill it... (35% chance of hitting. And then you have to avoid rolling a 1 for damage... Assuming average strength.) And if not, it may still not hit with the minimum two attacks it needs (admittedly 3/4th chance of hitting for the two claws due to weapon finesse and cat's grace, bite only has a 45% chance), giving the commoner another attack + 5 foot step (which means another AOO, as the cat needs to move back into its target's square to attack.)

So yeah, it's really not in a single level 1 commoner's favor. However, imagine he gets lucky and kills one. That may now be a level 2 commoner. :p Or hell, he might even lose...but he might get assistance and recover before -10 death...still getting the exp and learning how to better deal with those damned cats. (Though no exp progression seems to be defined for non-heroic NPCs...they still have to gain levels somehow, or else the level 20 commoner progression is utterly pointless. Even if it's by DM fiat.)

Now that commoner has 5 average hp! And possibly has learned to be wary of those insidious felines. So he stands a significantly better chance.

Perhaps stray cats are responsible for leveling many of the commoners of the world so they are no longer a threat. :p

Mando Knight
2008-01-26, 01:04 AM
except in England as of last July. Instead their merely nauseated by the smell of sweat and stale beer

Or Illinois as of the 1st of January. Smoking is now illegal in Illinois inside or within 15 feet of a public building. Not that I care, I don't smoke.

Grapple checks for cats is fun.
"Hey, Fluffy..."
Fluffy looks back at me, in terror. Runs like heck.
I pick her up and hold her in a way that she won't get away until I let her.
"Sorry, Fluff. You've got a -12 to Grapple checks.":smalltongue:
"Mrow."
True story. Cat's name not changed to protect her identity.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 01:59 AM
Even for a 2nd Level Commoner boasting a strength bonus, a point of BAB, and Improved Grapple, Crocodile Wrestling is essentially a very manly form of suicide. Apparently, there are no Steve Irwin's in the realms...

Pandaren
2008-01-26, 02:06 AM
Even for a 2nd Level Commoner boasting a strength bonus, a point of BAB, and Improved Grapple, Crocodile Wrestling is essentially a very manly form of suicide. Apparently, there are no Steve Irwin's in the realms...

Skill:

Profession: Crodile Dundee

Darkantra
2008-01-26, 03:04 AM
So yeah, it's really not in a single level 1 commoner's favor. However, imagine he gets lucky and kills one. That may now be a level 2 commoner. :p Or hell, he might even lose...but he might get assistance and recover before -10 death...still getting the exp and learning how to better deal with those damned cats. (Though no exp progression seems to be defined for non-heroic NPCs...they still have to gain levels somehow, or else the level 20 commoner progression is utterly pointless. Even if it's by DM fiat.)

Now that commoner has 5 average hp! And possibly has learned to be wary of those insidious felines. So he stands a significantly better chance.

Perhaps stray cats are responsible for leveling many of the commoners of the world so they are no longer a threat. :p

PCs go on Dungeon raids to gain levels. Commoners go on Crazy Old Cat Lady raids.

MammonAzrael
2008-01-26, 03:18 AM
Does this thread make anyone else think of the scene in Robin Hood: Men in Tights when they're training the commoners?

Yami
2008-01-26, 03:57 AM
Can survive: swimming along just under the surface of a lake at one-quarter speed for 2 minutes.

You confuse me. Are you meaning that a commoner should die doing this?

You do realize that most people cannot hold thier breath that long merely due to problems with willpower and not their bodies desperate need for air, yes?

Ninja Chocobo
2008-01-26, 04:39 AM
Apparently, there are no Steve Irwin's in the realms...

Steve Irwin was totally a Ranger.

Zenos
2008-01-26, 06:53 AM
Steve Irwin was totally a Ranger.

Or a druid in a world where there's a permanent anti-magic field in a 2000000000000000000000000 mile radius.

Roderick_BR
2008-01-26, 12:33 PM
That would be a Stingray, as opposed to the gentle and helpless Manta rays.
I blame misspelling in news sites.


Btw, I've found that the same applies to starvation and thirst as well. Once unconscious, non-lethal damage from these sources becomes lethal.
I was actually trying to find that rule. I know that it's true in the WriteWolf games, where damage starts to count as more dangerous once you "fill out" one damage count. For example, after you take those 7 levels of normal damage, you any damage taken becomes aggravated, no matter the source, meaning that someone can be beaten to death. I'm trying to find it on D&D still.

Theli
2008-01-26, 01:06 PM
I had to look in the rules compendium. It seems to be omitted from the core books.

Overlord
2008-01-26, 03:22 PM
Indestructible:

Don't forget the classic trick: a bucket of water is as good to a dying commoner (or anyone else) as a potion of cure light wounds. Well, almost as good.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning

Under the rules for drowning, a character can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to twice his Con score. Okay, that's fine. But after that time is up (two minutes for the average commoner), he has to start making Con checks, starting at DC 10, and increasing by 1 every round. And when that happens, he "falls unconscious (0 hp)." It doesn't say he "falls to 0 hp if he isn't already lower than that." It just says that he falls unconscious.

So let's say Nick the Commoner takes a serious fall off a tall tree. He has 2 hp, and he falls 20 feet. That's 2d6 damage. Let's say he takes nine points of damage. That leaves him at -7 hp. Now let's say that Nick either manages to make both of his 10% stabilization and consciousness rolls, or that a friend tends to him and delivers first aid. Good for him! Unfortunately, his ordeal isn't over yet. He is still at -7 hit points, and is disabled. He can move around slowly, but if he undertakes a single standard action, he'll keel over and start bleeding to death (Fun Fact: If Nick decides to speak for any length of time exceeding what is allowed in a free action, he'll immediately begin bleeding to death. You better keep those travel directions short, Nick--you might rupture your spleen!). Being unable to take standard actions means he is completely unable to ply whatever trade he has chosen to make a living (presumably something that involves trees; otherwise he probably wouldn't be climbing 20-foot-tall trees). Complete bed rest for an entire day and night heals you for twice your character level in hp. For Nick, that's 2 hp a day. But he's at -7, so it will take four days for him to reach 1 hp, at which point he can do manual labor without coughing up a pint of blood. Now four days is quite reasonable, IMO, for a twenty foot fall, which could easily cause broken bones. And four days of bed rest is no big deal if Nick is a non-working child, or elderly person. However, if Nick is the head of his household, missing four days of pay could make things very difficult for his family. So what is Nick's family going to do?

Why, they're going to stick his head in a bucket and drown him, obviously! So we finally get to the bucket of water. All Nick's family needs to do is hold his head under the water for two minutes. At that point, he'll start making Con checks. Whether or not he can choose to fail a Con check is debatable, but after a few rounds, he will fail a check. When that happens, he will fall unconscious, but he his now at 0 hp. One day of rest, and he's at 2 hp! So, he spent one day and three minutes to recover all the way to full health. Wow. That's impressive. What's more, he doesn't even need to take a full day of bed rest. He can rest for eight hours, gain 1 hp, and get up to go to work the next morning. Jeez. I can't get over a cold in eight hours; Nick just recovered from a twenty-foot fall overnight.

Now, the rules could be interpreted to mean that, on the first round of drowning, the character falls unconscious, but does not go to 0 hp. But the rules specifically state that on the second round, the character "drops to -1 hp and is dying." So yeah, if Nick's family holds his head underwater too long, he'll be at -1 hp and dying. But if there's someone on hand who can stabilize him, he'll still be much better off than before. A first aid check is only a DC 15 heal check. And since nobody's in combat, I believe Nick's family members can each take ten on the check. If Nick's wife has a +5 bonus to Heal (from being second level, or having Skill Focus: heal), she can stabilize him automatically. Yeah, that's an obvious mistake in the rules. Yeah, no DM would allow a character to do this. It's still funny, though.

Nick's wife probably keeps a bucket of water on hand at all times.

Destructible:

Fun Facts: While investigating the rules for being disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#disabled0HitPoints), I found an interesting quirk. The following actions will all cause you to collapse, fall unconscious, and begin bleeding to death if you attempt them while disabled:


Lighting or extinguishing a torch.
Using skills that take one round: Lying (Bluff), Tying knots (Use Rope), etc.
Speaking more than "a few sentences."
Drinking a potion.


That last one is especially interesting. A harsh DM might rule that drinking any liquid, not just a potion, is a standard action. That means that Nick would be faced with a terrible dilemma: take a drink of water, and collapse from the sheer agony of the effort, or drink nothing, and risk dehydration. I guess that was a serious problem in the D&D world, and was the primary incentive for the invention of the I.V. drip.

Artanis
2008-01-26, 04:48 PM
*lots of stuff*
Heh, funny. I only have one nitpick:


Drinking a potion.
A non-healing potion, sure. But it says that you go to -1 if the action does not increase your health, so presumably drinking a healing potion wouldn't hurt you.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-26, 05:19 PM
Best thread ever!

Also, if twenty commoners stand widely dispersed in an open grassy field, you will only be able to see 19 of them, because the other one will statistically roll higher on his 'hide' skill than you would on your spot check.


You might have to take saunas off that list. According to the Rules Compendium (and Sandstorm I think) the commoner will take absolutely no damage from temperatures up to 180°F as long as they have improvised shelter. (Which, arguably, a sauna could qualify as.)

Saunas are so not a shelter :)

But it does mean he will never get hypothermia while in an igloo, and can do amazing things with boiling water...

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 05:56 PM
Saunas are so not a shelter :)

But it does mean he will never get hypothermia while in an igloo, and can do amazing things with boiling water...

You <3 Metric, I take it?

Kurald Galain
2008-01-26, 06:27 PM
You <3 Metric, I take it?

Okay, okay, boiling water at extreme high altitude.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 06:30 PM
Okay, okay, boiling water at extreme high altitude.

But why would he need boiling water if he never gets cold?

Worira
2008-01-26, 06:33 PM
Best thread ever!

Also, if twenty commoners with hide in plain sight stand widely dispersed in an open grassy field, you will only be able to see 19 of them, because the other one will statistically roll higher on his 'hide' skill than you would on your spot check.


Fixed. Well, other than the horrible math.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-26, 06:42 PM
Fixed. Well, other than the horrible math.

Well duh, I'm exaggerating; this is a satire thread, after all. The point is that there is a lot of silliness with the hiding rules.

For instance, the above example works in twilight, because shadows provide concealment. It also works if there's two-feet-high walls in the area, because they provide cover even to larger creatures. You can even succesfully hide behind a glass window, because that also provides cover. But on the other hand, it is not possible to actually hide behind a giant, since cover from creatures only works against missile attacks and so forth, and not for hiding.

Worira
2008-01-26, 06:45 PM
Also, you can hide behind your own tower shield. This also hides the shield.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 06:46 PM
To be fair, he would only have had a 35.85 % chance of seeing all of them...

(.95^20=.3585)

But yeah, hiding is pretty skewed between unrealistically easy and unrealistically hard...

Overlord
2008-01-26, 08:28 PM
A non-healing potion, sure. But it says that you go to -1 if the action does not increase your health, so presumably drinking a healing potion wouldn't hurt you.

Yes, you're absolutely right; the rules specifically state that if you perform an action that heals you, you don't take damage. But what does that have to do with what I was talking about? Any 1st level commoner that has access to even a potion of cure minor wounds should probably be an aristocrat instead.

Obviously, I was joking about the bucket of water, and death by water consumption. But does anyone else think it's more than a bit strange that certain actions, like talking can cause a disabled character to die? Although, that does explain why so many NPCs go down after giving their "final breath" speech. They shouldn't have used that full round action, they should have used a bunch of free actions!


Don't forget that a commoner is still entitled to a feat at first level... two if they're human.
What would be the best feats for them to take, I wonder?

Also, flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)get you one feat each, and you can take up to two of them. Taking the Shaky and Weak Will flaws is a cheap way of getting two free feats. Several of the Complete series feats can turn a Commoner into a relative powerhouse.

Those feats from Complete Arcane that grant 1/day spell-like abilities have no prerequisites. Soul of the North and Necropolis Born let you cast Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, Touch of Fatigue, and Cause Fear, as well as Ghost Sound and Resistance. Those two feats basically let you cast as many spells as a level one sorcerer. Deadly defense (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Deadly_Defense,CS) seems surprising useful to a commoner: you're taking a -4 penalty to attack, but you're getting +1d6 damage. That means you're guaranteed to knock out your average fellow commoner if you hit him, and you're also getting +2 to AC from fighting defensively. Taking Combat Expertise can bring that attack penalty down to -2. And browsing through the Forgotten Realms feats, I noticed something: those regional feats have no requirements other than being born in the right place. Militia (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Militia,PG)give you proficiency with all martial weapons. :smalleek: Taking that along with Monkey grip will let you wield a large greatsword: 3d6 damage! Of course, you have to be able to afford the weapon... Furious charge (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Furious_Charge,PG) gives you a +4 bonus to hit when attacking at the end of a charge. Dauntless gets you +5 hit points. That's a lot.

So...what would I pick?

Here are my two proposed builds (for now, I'm sure I'll have more ideas later), all of them assuming a 1st-level human Commoner with the Shaky and Weak Will flaws:

1. Soul of the North, Necropolis Born, Dauntless, and Toughness or Improved Initiative. That'll get you quite a few offensive spell-like abilities, and either an average of 10 hit points, or 7 hp and a +4 bonus to initiative.

2. Deadly Defense, Combat Expertise, Furious Charge, Toughness. Only 5 hp, but when charging, wielding a sickle, and using combat expertise, you get: no penalty to AC, a +2 bonus to attack, and +1d6 to damage. If you replace Furious Charge with Dauntless, you can attack without charging but with Combat Expertise for +2 AC, -2 to attack, and +1d6 damage, and you'll have an average of 7 hp.

...So, am I forgetting something? Oh, yeah: Incarnum. :smalleek:

Theli
2008-01-27, 02:16 AM
Best thread ever!

Also, if twenty commoners stand widely dispersed in an open grassy field, you will only be able to see 19 of them, because the other one will statistically roll higher on his 'hide' skill than you would on your spot check.



Saunas are so not a shelter :)

But it does mean he will never get hypothermia while in an igloo, and can do amazing things with boiling water...

Sure they are. There's no wind in there, right? And no direct exposure to the heat source (such as the sun.) One of the example improvised shelters was a windbreak. The others were obviously about getting out of the sunlight. Neither necessary mandated a decrease in temperature.

Suffering 141-180°F in the desert is simply different from doing so in a sauna, and you can easily use the rule about improvised shelters to represent that. I don't really see what the problem with that is.


Btw, natural 20s on skill checks don't automatically succeed. The player character spotting the 20 commoners might easily be able to see the one that rolls the 20 through skill ranks alone. (Unless you meant that it was largely statistically unlikely to see all 20...but so what? So a commoner can get lucky...the simulation seems to be working as intended.)

Kurald Galain
2008-01-27, 05:37 AM
And browsing through the Forgotten Realms feats, I noticed something: those regional feats have no requirements other than being born in the right place.
It would be expected, then, for all commoners in Foo region to have the "born in Foo region" feat, no? That makes commoners surprisingly strong in some regions :smallsmile:


Sure they are. There's no wind in there, right? And no direct exposure to the heat source (such as the sun.)
Er, exposure to the heat source is the whole point of being in a sauna. You're not even wearing any clothes, for crying out loud, how is that not exposed?


(Unless you meant that it was largely statistically unlikely to see all 20...but so what? So a commoner can get lucky...the simulation seems to be working as intended.)
Precisely. Commoners getting lucky means that a ridiculously large percentage of the population will, eventually, get lucky. Here's what all commoners should do: take any craft that lets you make expensive things from cheap material (e.g. sculptor). Now start making things completely at random. Eventually (meaning within three weeks, statistically speaking) you'll end up with a masterwork item, which you can sell for a lot of money. Voila, you're rich, and can afford to be not a commoner.

Theli
2008-01-27, 09:52 AM
It's a question of heat transferal. Direct exposure in this case would be being 1 foot away from the hot coals with no barrier between, and perhaps even breathing in smoke.

The whole point of a sauna is that you're exposed to heat in a manner that makes it significantly less dangerous than if you were exposed to it in the wild. (Hence, the ability to use the shelter rules.) And that's why the base rules for heat dangers couldn't possibly make sense for the sauna unless it listed a specific exception to this activity. Which I don't really see how anybody could think would be a reasonable and expected precaution by wotc...

It's practically complaining for the sake of complaining.

daggaz
2008-01-27, 10:47 AM
You confuse me. Are you meaning that a commoner should die doing this?

You do realize that most people cannot hold thier breath that long merely due to problems with willpower and not their bodies desperate need for air, yes?

What??!

You do realize that what you just said is substantially incorrect, yes?

While people can easily hold their breathes for much longer than two minutes, it depends far far more on proper breathing techniques and good conditions, than it does will power, as the reflex action you are tyring to willfully suppress is involuntarily controlled by the brainstem, which in turn is directly keyed in to blood CO2 regulatory mechanisms in your body.

So you make use of proper breathing techniques to lower the CO2 levels in your blood, you hopefully are in good cardiovascular health (a healthy heart pumps slower which uses less oxygen), and you probably aren't doing anything extremely physical, like actually swimming any distance as our poor commoner is doing.

That way, you can hold your breath longer than normal, but willpower or not, once your CO2 levels raise to a certain point, your brainstem WILL kick in and force you to breathe, like it or not. Otherwise, drowning would be so much easier to avoid, you know..

I can hold my breathe pretty easily for two minutes sitting still or while diving (letting the weight of my body take me down), but swimming horizontally? No, doesnt sound like fun at all.

-----------------------------------------------------
That aside, one more thing the commoner will probably die at that wont kill a normal human?

Running a business using a profession skill. Seriously, anybody foolish enough to go into business using the DnD ruleset is going to freaking STARVE to death. In the real world, businesses actually have a chance of making money, even for lvl one commoners.

SoD
2008-01-27, 11:35 AM
So we should make will checks instead of con checks to hold our breath?


Yes, but a D&D can kill a generic ADULT HEALTHY HUMAN most of the times, with only it's claws. That's why it's ridiculous.


AAHH!!!!! IT'S A KILLER D&D WITH HUGE CLAWS!!!

Roderick_BR
2008-01-27, 02:21 PM
Indestructible:

Don't forget the classic trick: a bucket of water is as good to a dying commoner (or anyone else) as a potion of cure light wounds. Well, almost as good.


3 a: the act or an instance of dropping : fall b: a decline in quantity or quality c: a descent by parachute; also : the people or equipment dropped by parachute d: a place or central depository to which something (as mail, money, or stolen property) is brought for distribution or transmission; also : the act of depositing something at such a place <made the drop>
I still maintain that the "healing drowning" trick is bogus. you DROP to -1. If you are already bellow it, you can't drop to it, only rise back to it. And drowning doesn't say you GO to -1, you DROP to -1, your HP won't rise.

As for the tower shield... yeah, a huge loophole saying that if you hide behind a shield, you hide yourself and all your equipment, and since your shield is also your equipment, it gets hidden as well.

Aquillion
2008-01-27, 04:36 PM
Someone else mentioned this in passing, but it's still worth mentioning specifically : A D&D commoner can recover completely from any non-fatal injury (excepting those caused by special magic or specific special attacks) in, at most, 10 days of bed rest, and many less if they're level 2 and/or are getting competent medical care.

That's pretty tough... of course, if they have even a level 1 cleric or adapt in their village, they can recover near-instantly anyway.

Naleh
2008-01-27, 05:29 PM
I still maintain that the "healing drowning" trick is bogus. you DROP to -1. If you are already bellow it, you can't drop to it, only rise back to it. And drowning doesn't say you GO to -1, you DROP to -1, your HP won't rise.

Yes, you DROP to -1, but not until after you GO to 0.

But, technically, the drowning rules never say that you STOP drowning if you're removed from the water...

bugsysservant
2008-01-27, 05:46 PM
Let's see. A commoner will fall unconscious after being poked with a needle six times. No commoner can survive more than 42 needles.

A commoner will fall unconscious and begin to die it their thumb or any finger is crushed.

Um, there are others, but those are the worst. Does anyone out there actually use the torture rules in the BoVD?

Kurald Galain
2008-01-27, 06:12 PM
Oh, I forgot!

The commoner can keep toiling the fields and feeding the cattle after he dies. Because nothing in the rules says being dead precludes you from taking regular actions. So there :smallbiggrin:

Naleh
2008-01-27, 09:24 PM
Oh, I forgot!

The commoner can keep toiling the fields and feeding the cattle after he dies. Because nothing in the rules says being dead precludes you from taking regular actions. So there :smallbiggrin:

:smalleek:

Vexxation
2008-01-27, 09:30 PM
Oh, I forgot!

The commoner can keep toiling the fields and feeding the cattle after he dies. Because nothing in the rules says being dead precludes you from taking regular actions. So there :smallbiggrin:

Dead

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

Well, his soul's gone. But it really doesn't say what lacking a soul, does, either. So I can't see why a dead Fighter can't run around swinging, other than us knowing that dead mea\ans stop moving.

Jack Zander
2008-01-27, 10:18 PM
Cheese and rice, why do people still think that works? It has been proved wrong so many times on these boards before.

When you are at negative HP, your non-lethal damage is greater than your lethal damage, so you are unconscious. Unconscious characters cannot act.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-27, 10:28 PM
But you aren't unconscious, you're dead. :smallcool: