Systems Commonwealth vs. ???

[Emperor Tippy]

I was going to say vs. the Imperium of Man but that would be no contest (Systems Commonwealth would crush).

So what SciFi race/group can either invade and defeat the Systems Commonwealth or can defeat an invasion of 100 Glorious Heritage Class Heavy Cruisers.

[Porthos]

I was going to say vs. the Imperium of Man but that would be no contest (Systems Commonwealth would crush).

So what SciFi race/group can either invade and defeat the Systems Commonwealth or can defeat an invasion of 100 Glorious Heritage Class Heavy Cruisers.

At their height of power? Pretty darn hard since Robert Hewitt Wolfe intentionally designed them to be one of the biggest, baddest, most "out there" SF Pulp Empires known to man (I talked to him about it once and he said, paraphrasing, that he wanted to out do E.E. "Doc" Smith in that department). [NOTE: Of course he did this just so he could laugh maniacally as he destroyed it all in the first half hour of his series. :smalltongue: ]

Anyway, I presume we're eliminating God-Like Alien Races from the equation since, as strong as the All Systems Commonwealth is, it isn't in that league (in fact, the case could be made that a GLAR was responsible for the destruction of the ASC). Moving toward races just under the (near-)Omnipotent Superbeings Range, The Gallifreyans from the Doctor Who Universe would be able to wipe the floor off of the All Systems Commonwealth simply due to the fact that the ASC has no reliable time travel technology.

On the other hand, according to RHW, the "rules" of the ASC Universe are that the Universe is fairly deterministic (i.e. you can't go back and change the past - you simply become part of the events that "already" happened - unless you're a GLAR of course). So I'm not sure if the Time Lords could muck about with them too much.

And this brings up a rather fair point, and one that needs to be addressed in all "versus" threads. The Production Team behind Andromeda (or at least the one that counts in my book :smallwink: ) tried to keep the science in it's show as "real" as possible. Allowing for such things as FTL drive, of course. So that makes cross examination hard (i.e the ASC has very little defense against "magical" Science Fiction). So perhaps we should stick to "Hard" SF as much as possible for a fair debate?

I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of the tech, but I would think that the empires in the David Brin Uplift series might give the ASC a run for their money. If we allow psychohistory, then the Galactic Empire/Foundation/whatever from Isaac Asimov's books would do fairy well as well, especially since it was psychology that mostly drove the ASC to it's destruction.

Going to Mass Entertainment, the Replicators from the Stargate Universe might also do rather well. On the other hand, the ASC believes in very strong AI (all the way down to giving them emotions and "free will"), so they would probably able to eventually counter that threat as well. As has been well established, the Empire from the SW Universe would get crushed, Force or no Force, so I won't even go there (more speed, more resources, more manpower, higher tech level, better ships, arguably better troops, et etc).

The thing is, the ASC has the manpower and resources of three major galaxies behind it (well three plus all of the smaller galaxies that make up the Local Group), so that has to be factored in when ever you're talking about these contests. Not only that, but they can, quite literally, appear almost anywhere within their galaxies-spanning Commonwealth in a very short amount of time. In fact, as I said above, the ASC wasn't really defeated by an invasion. It was defeated by manipulation of the people within it's empire as they tried to deal with an invasion. And even then, the ASC was weaker than it had been (mentally at least) since it had been quite a while since they were really challenged. Might be interesting to see how The Spirit of the Abyss would have dealt with the ASC when it was really kicking booty and was mentally tough.

I'm fairly stumped when it comes to TV/Films, tbh. I'm really unfamiliar with the Traveller RPG games, but I suspect something from there might be able to take them on (simply because Traveller, like the ASC, was designed "to be able to go up to 11" :smallamused: ) Like I said, I think we'll have to go to book races/empires to get a good challenger simply because there haven't been that many Multiple Galaxy Spanning Empires (along with the tech needed to pull that feat off) in the visual media. Either that or go to a race/group that specializes in manipulation in defeating its foes, since we have proof that can take down the ASC.

Don't laugh, but the Dominion from the Star Trek Universe might actually have a slight shot, simply because of it's ability to perfectly impersonate other people. Then again, once the jig was up I suspect the All Systems Commonwealth would crush the Dominion since they would eventually come up with tests to catch the shape-shifters. Plus, as I think about it, the Nietzscheans would love a chance to play mind games with the Vorta and the Changelings. So, as I think about it more, the only way the Dominion could win is if the ASC was extremely weak and they applied a hammer blow to destabilize the Commonwealth as much as possible.

Kinda like the Spirit of the Abyss did, now that I think about it. :smallbiggrin:

[Ominous]

Q quickly cuts in, "We must have missed each other in IoM vs. All Commers thread. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Q and I pwn everything. Get the entire Q Continuum involved and you're royally screwed."

[Dhavaer]

I'm going to say Xeelee. They're quite reliable sources of pwnage.

[Porthos]

Q quickly cuts in, "We must have missed each other in IoM vs. All Commers thread. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Q and I pwn everything. Get the entire Q Continuum involved and you're royally screwed."

As I said earlier, I presume that GLARs don't count. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I was thinking even more about my last post and I just wanted to remind people in this thread about something. The All Systems Commonwealth/Empire lasted nearly 10,000 years. That's a hell of a long time to be Alpha Dog. :smalltongue: So I'm sure they faced a few manipulators bent on destroying the ASE/ASC from within in their time. So I'm not as sure about my Manipulator answer as I was originally. But I am fairly certain that unless the race/group we come up with is of a massively higher tech level, then a Manipulator Type is the only one with a shot. And even then, it needs a comparatively "weak" All Systems Commonwealth to succeed.

[Ominous]

Porthos, that's not nice ruling out omnipotent beings right before I post about Q.

OK, non-Q races and beings. I'll go with the Replicators after they became immune to the Replicator Disruptor. Unless you can create blackholes at any point in space easily, can mess around with time dilation on enormous scales, have the exact same method used to defeat them, can use magic, or have god-like power, you can't stop them.

[Emperor Tippy]

I see the Systems Commonwealth being a threat to the Replicators. I mean I don't think even the Replicators can survive a star going nova. And once the SC realizes what the replicators are I don't think they would hold off on the nova bombing.

Also with the level of AI they have the SC may be able to hack the Replicators and take them over that way. And IIRC the Replicators aren't immune to gravity. The SC can hold a few to study in gravity fields that they can't get out of.

[Porthos]

Porthos, that's not nice ruling out omnipotent beings right before I post about Q.

Well, c'mon, let's use logic here. I mean, if we allow God Like Alien Beings, then I might was well bring in Squirrel Girl and be done with it. :smalltongue:


OK, non-Q races and beings. I'll go with the Replicators after they became immune to the Replicator Disruptor.

Thought about them. However, the All Systems Commonwealth has access to some of the best AI known to fandom.


Unless you can create blackholes at any point in space easily,

Err.... Well... Do Point Singularity Weapons count? :smalltongue:


can mess around with time dilation on enormous scales,

Wouldn't put it past the ASC to be able to play around with that


can use magic, or have god-like power, you can't stop them.

Nope and nope on those things. Andromeda (especially in it's first season and a half) tried as hard as possible to stay away from "magic". The most "magical" thing in Andromeda, beyond FTL drives, was the introduction of Tesseract Technology. But since the Creative Team was fired before they could implement their vision, we'll never really know then limits of Tesseract Technology (and the GLARs that were using them).

However, as I said, the Systems Commonwealth are masters at AI and computer networking technology. So if the Replicators can be attacked via that avenue (and I'm not familiar enought with them to know if they are or not), then they might be able to deal with them. :smallsmile:

[The_Snark]

As you said, David Brin's Uplift Universe might have a shot. It spans five galaxies, rather than three, and has access to the Library, which contains all scientific and technological knowledge discovered by every oxygen-breathing species in those galaxies for at least a billion years. It's safe to say that no matter what technology you use, they can look up more or less how it works, and what the disadvantages or flaws that made them stop using it are.

I'm not sure I would qualify it as hard science fiction, though; I've always felt that the battle sequences between the Galactics were a subtle parody of a lot of space opera, beginning with standard missiles and lasers and then throwing in casual references to other scopes of the battlefield, including psychic individuals and devices and later on reality-warping weapons.

Their major disadvantage is that the Five Galaxies are not united. At all. Not even a little bit. Most notable in the books are several alliances made up of conflicting religious sects (and a few more secular ones), and the vast majority of species simply don't consider that sort of war their concern, most of the time. It would take an incredibly large, stunningly obvious threat to get any sort of unity.

A 10,000-year old culture probably isn't going to impress them enough to do that. That's around the period of indenture a species defeated in a war might agree to in order to avoid annihilation, and only about a tenth of the time a mature species serves its client to repay them for being uplifted to sentience.

Edit- Destroying stars or inhabitable planets, however, is the sort of thing that actually might get them to work together. Inhabitable places are not renewable resources.

[Ominous]

The Asgard tried finding some way to control them through hacking them and couldn't succeed and they're one of the most powerful races in SG which spans several galaxies and can do some pretty incredible things.

Point singularity weapons might work, but you'd have to keep firing it at them.

Blowing up a star might do it, but you better get them all. If they manage to spread to multiple planets or get aboard the ships launching the nova bombs, you're in trouble. Also, the replicators can turn into ships and are capable of reaching speeds that let them get from one galaxy to another in about 10 to 20 minutes, so you have to blow up the star and hope they don't form ships and move to other systems.

[Porthos]

As you said, David Brin's Uplift Universe might have a shot. It spans five galaxies, rather than three, and has access to the Library, which contains all scientific and technological knowledge discovered by every oxygen-breathing species in those galaxies for at least a billion years.

About that point, and it's a minor quibble, the Systems Commonwealth has (pretty much) control over every galaxy in the Local Group. Or at least it controls the Milky Way, the Andromeda Galaxy and the Triangulum Galaxy, and all of the satellite galaxies that orbit/are near those galaxies. In fact when the show was being created they called it the Six Galaxies, but only changed it because of a lack of a common definition of the Major Galaxies in the Local Group. I don't know how the Uplift Universe compares to that but I just wanted to clarify that. :smallsmile:

And while the Systems Commonwealth also has it's own Library it's not one that goes back a billion years. So that's definitely a point in the Uplifts favor. :smallwink:

Anyway the ASC doesn't go out of it's way to nova bomb systems (not only do they view it as a last resort weapon, but they tend to view it as an atrocity type weapon as well - all that being said, when the ASC's backs were against the wall during it's civil war nova bombs were used. So they ain't that moral :smalltongue: ), so I'm not sure that would be much of a rallying point. As you say it's a waste of resources, if nothing else. But it's a hell of a threat, nonetheless.

[Ominous]

What about the Necron, could they take on the Systems Commonwealth?

[Emperor Tippy]

The Asgard tried finding some way to control them through hacking them and couldn't succeed and they're one of the most powerful races in SG which spans several galaxies and can do some pretty incredible things.
The Asgard don't really begin to approach the SC in terms of AI. And while they are powerful I don't think even an O'Neil class could take the damage a Glorious Heritage could dish out. Not to mention that the SC fights at reasonable ranges (unlike Stargate which is pretty much 1 light second ranges at max). Although if the Asgard get to mess around with their time dilation tech they could win.


Point singularity weapons might work, but you'd have to keep firing it at them.
Kinetic energy weapons work and the SC uses a lot of those. They also fire antiprotons which will react with *any* matter in a matter/antimatter reaction. I don't see the replicators getting immunity to that one.


Blowing up a star might do it, but you better get them all. If they manage to spread to multiple planets or get aboard the ships launching the nova bombs, you're in trouble. Also, the replicators can turn into ships and are capable of reaching speeds that let them get from one galaxy to another in about 10 to 20 minutes, so you have to blow up the star and hope they don't form ships and move to other systems.
Yeah. Replicators are a pain.

[Emperor Tippy]

What about the Necron, could they take on the Systems Commonwealth?

Can the Necrons be threatened by the IoM, Orks, etc.? If so then they don't stand a real chance. I mean 1 Glorious Heritage Class would rape an entire IoM fleet without much difficulty. And any Tomb Worlds could be destroyed (nova bombs or just death star the planet which they can do with regular missiles).

[factotum]

I don't think the Uplift universe would be able to deal with the Systems Commonwealth, because the races in that universe couldn't deal with humans even when they were massively technically inferior to them...once they get to a power level like the ASC has, they wouldn't stand a chance. Note that people are assuming that they can just look up counters to all your technology in the Library, but the whole POINT of the Uplift books is that the Library does not contain everything, and races who rely on it for technology and tactics tend to get horribly confused when humans do something unexpected (such as dumping several thousand tonnes of water directly into your ship's path while it's travelling at near lightspeed...).

As for the Traveller RPG, it isn't even close in terms of tech level to the ASC. For a start, the distance ships can travel is severely limited in the Traveller universe...even the fastest scout ships can only make a single 6 parsec jump before having to refuel.

[The_Snark]

I don't think the Uplift universe would be able to deal with the Systems Commonwealth, because the races in that universe couldn't deal with humans even when they were massively technically inferior to them...once they get to a power level like the ASC has, they wouldn't stand a chance. Note that people are assuming that they can just look up counters to all your technology in the Library, but the whole POINT of the Uplift books is that the Library does not contain everything, and races who rely on it for technology and tactics tend to get horribly confused when humans do something unexpected (such as dumping several thousand tonnes of water directly into your ship's path while it's travelling at near lightspeed...).

They couldn't deal with humans because the races that despised humans and actively persecuted them were of a variety that were very traditional and set in their ways. And also because they fought each other much more than they fought humans—even while in hot pursuit of the human ship, the enemy fleets were shooting mostly at each other. Ditto for the siege of Earth. (Which was only finally defeated because of the threat of intervention by other races.)

And I'm not sure how much of the books you read, but one of the points made near the end was that as frustrating and irritating as it was to mankind, the Library really did contain nearly all technological knowledge that had been discovered by non-ascended races. It didn't necessarily put all this knowledge together, so the stagnation of many Galactic races in not trying to put ideas together to get new things is a major disadvantage in the books, but the knowledge is there, and when confronted with something unexpected, it can almost always be looked up.

Relying on the Library for tactics is a bad idea, naturally. But not all of the alien races do this—again, it's mostly the traditionalists. The Tymbrimi, for example, or a lot of the moderate races, are much more flexible. As are neo-chimps, neo-dolphins, and humans themselves, who count as part of the Five Galaxies.

[factotum]

I've only read the first 3 books, as I recall. Still, what I did read seemed to imply that the problem of relying on the Library to hold the answer to everything meant that tactics and technology rather stagnated...if that was later modified, then so be it!

[sikyon]

Well, the Federation has what are basically nova weapons as well, except that they take way less time to make and way less resources. Generations and all that. One guy ran around blowing up suns with banned tech.

Anyhow, I think Borg could take it. They have FTL at least as fast, adaptive weapons, and of course, assimilation. ASC does have nanites defenses, but I think that after a few encounters they would start to get overwhelmed.

[factotum]

Well, the Federation has what are basically nova weapons as well, except that they take way less time to make and way less resources. Generations and all that. One guy ran around blowing up suns with banned tech.


Like virtually every other example of a Federation superweapon, though, we've seen said weapon used in precisely one place, never anywhere else. Either the Federation are really good at losing research of this nature, or they're too softhearted to use it even under the threat of annihilation--think how many occasions the Genesis Device or a nova bomb would have been useful to pull their fat from the fire!

[sikyon]

Like virtually every other example of a Federation superweapon, though, we've seen said weapon used in precisely one place, never anywhere else. Either the Federation are really good at losing research of this nature, or they're too softhearted to use it even under the threat of annihilation--think how many occasions the Genesis Device or a nova bomb would have been useful to pull their fat from the fire!

Well that's true, the Federation doesn't want to use their superweapons because it opens up a huge ethical can of worms. Systems Commonwealth didn't use nova bombs to kill people either though, did they?

[Emperor Tippy]

Well that's true, the Federation doesn't want to use their superweapons because it opens up a huge ethical can of worms. Systems Commonwealth didn't use nova bombs to kill people either though, did they?

In the civil war they did. And Nova Weapons don't take long to make. Andromeda can make them on her own and replace her entire stock. So could any of the other GHC's.

As for the borg, they could travel to other galaxies in a few minutes without the transwarp hubs?

And adaptive weapons/defenses really won't do a thing against the SC. You can't adapt to antimatter if you are made of matter. Or to Kinetic Impacts. And will assimilation even work? The SC has self defense nanites in all its people that attack any non friendly nanites found.

[sikyon]

In the civil war they did. And Nova Weapons don't take long to make. Andromeda can make them on her own and replace her entire stock. So could any of the other GHC's.

As for the borg, they could travel to other galaxies in a few minutes without the transwarp hubs?

And adaptive weapons/defenses really won't do a thing against the SC. You can't adapt to antimatter if you are made of matter. Or to Kinetic Impacts. And will assimilation even work? The SC has self defense nanites in all its people that attack any non friendly nanites found.

Did the ASC use nova bombs in the civil war? I remember dylan refused to use it to destroy the neichian fleet.

I also don't remember Andromeda being able to do that. I remember that she had to replenish her stock from a stockpile in one of hte first episodes, and then she just kept one (and never made more, if I recall). I also remember an episode on a planet where some planetary ruler had a huge nova bomb factory that they had to infiltrate and destroy before they could make nova bombs. Nova bombs were also worth an incredible fortune, if I remember as well. Couldn't have been easy to make.

EDIT: Wait, I remember andromda secretly making them in a machine shop. Never mind. Still, it seemed that they took quite awhile to make, though.

Trans warp through non trans warp hubs is debatable in speed. You never get a solid idea of exactly how fast it is, just that it is really really fast. But perhaps not as fast as hubs.

You can adapt to antimatter weapons by use of shielding. Alot of people forget that the borg actually do have shields. They don't use them alot, because of the way star trek weapons work, but actual non-adaptive sheilds are used a few times, especially by drones. It is arguable if they can adapt to kinetic weapons. You never see it happen, but you also never see kinetic weapons used against them in bulk (in close combat they are already strong enough to take most comers). It's possible they would just adapt by activating low energy non-adaptive shielding (presuambly it takes alot less energy than a sheild which could absorb phasers, like the kind Worf jurry rigged out of a communicator in one episode).

I know SC has anti-nanite nanites, but the borg are highly adaptive and while it might not work the first few times, I'm sure that eventually the borg would adapt to SC nanites and assimilate them. In fact, nanite tech like this would make the SC a very convincing target for the Borg to attack, in order to improve their nanite technology. Also, lets not forget that Borg don't just assimilate - they are also shown to analyze and study as well (though it seems very difficult for them as they are not particularly creative).





The really big problem about the ASC is how slow their ships are when moving at sub-light speeds. They are bound by relativity which means their ships posses an enourmas tactical disadvantage in comparison to ships from star trek, which can run circles around them in tactical combat using warp drives. They can outmauver with slipstream, too, but again if you stick your warp capable base/capital ships between solar systems the ASC can't touch you or even find you. If you just carry out raids from there... ASC may not even be able to respond fast enough to retaliate before you escape.

[Emperor Tippy]

Did the ASC use nova bombs in the civil war? I remember dylan refused to use it to destroy the neichian fleet.
Yeah. It was mentioned that both sides were using them in the Civil War (remember, Dylan was lost in the first battle and had no real idea what he was facing when it happened).


I also don't remember Andromeda being able to do that. I remember that she had to replenish her stock from a stockpile in one of hte first episodes, and then she just kept one (and never made more, if I recall). I also remember an episode on a planet where some planetary ruler had a huge nova bomb factory that they had to infiltrate and destroy before they could make nova bombs. Nova bombs were also worth an incredible fortune, if I remember as well. Couldn't have been easy to make.

EDIT: Wait, I remember andromda secretly making them in a machine shop. Never mind. Still, it seemed that they took quite awhile to make, though.
Not really. The hardest part seemed to be getting the Voltierium and Andromedas reactors could create the stuff.


Trans warp through non trans warp hubs is debatable in speed. You never get a solid idea of exactly how fast it is, just that it is really really fast. But perhaps not as fast as hubs.
But the SC can go galaxy to galaxy in minutes with fighters.


You can adapt to antimatter weapons by use of shielding. Alot of people forget that the borg actually do have shields. They don't use them alot, because of the way star trek weapons work, but actual non-adaptive sheilds are used a few times, especially by drones. It is arguable if they can adapt to kinetic weapons. You never see it happen, but you also never see kinetic weapons used against them in bulk (in close combat they are already strong enough to take most comers). It's possible they would just adapt by activating low energy non-adaptive shielding (presuambly it takes alot less energy than a sheild which could absorb phasers, like the kind Worf jurry rigged out of a communicator in one episode).
An SC Gauss pistol fires guided bullets at hypersonic speeds. And the counter missiles fired by Androemda are fist sized, guided, and travel at .99c. They have around 20 megatons of kinetic energy when they impact. Androemda can fire thousands at a time.


I know SC has anti-nanite nanites, but the borg are highly adaptive and while it might not work the first few times, I'm sure that eventually the borg would adapt to SC nanites and assimilate them. In fact, nanite tech like this would make the SC a very convincing target for the Borg to attack, in order to improve their nanite technology. Also, lets not forget that Borg don't just assimilate - they are also shown to analyze and study as well (though it seems very difficult for them as they are not particularly creative).
Again, we have no idea whether or not they could adapt.


The really big problem about the ASC is how slow their ships are when moving at sub-light speeds. They are bound by relativity which means their ships posses an enourmas tactical disadvantage in comparison to ships from star trek, which can run circles around them in tactical combat using warp drives. They can outmauver with slipstream, too, but again if you stick your warp capable base/capital ships between solar systems the ASC can't touch you or even find you. If you just carry out raids from there... ASC may not even be able to respond fast enough to retaliate before you escape.

You do realize that the only weapon they can fire at warp speeds at non warp ships is torpedoes? Those things wouldn't even phase a slip fighters point defense.

[sikyon]

An SC Gauss pistol fires guided bullets at hypersonic speeds. And the counter missiles fired by Androemda are fist sized, guided, and travel at .99c. They have around 20 megatons of kinetic energy when they impact. Androemda can fire thousands at a time.


Were they? I didn't remember a weapon energy quote, but OK then.


Again, we have no idea whether or not they could adapt.

Mmm. Seemed they could adapt to almost anything else though, so I wouldn't think it too large a leap in thought. I mean, at the least, they could assimilate important people who knew this stuff and develop countermeasures.


You do realize that the only weapon they can fire at warp speeds at non warp ships is torpedoes? Those things wouldn't even phase a slip fighters point defense.

Slip fighters have point defense? I don't recall ever seeing that when they did the fighter battles.
Anyhow, if point defense is 20 megatons theres not much to be done by the federation. But still, ASC has this incredible slipstream weakness. And I mean, if weapons can hurt ASC ships they just warp around and away from incomming opponents, or they fly to worlds and bomb them quickly... ect.

[factotum]

It is arguable if they can adapt to kinetic weapons. You never see it happen, but you also never see kinetic weapons used against them in bulk (in close combat they are already strong enough to take most comers).

On the one hand, it's pretty obvious the Borg CAN adapt to kinetic weapons, or else even have the ability to block them without requiring adaptation--the Federation are smart people, they would soon start fitting kinetic weapons to their ships if it was the only way to defeat the Borg. Hell, use antimatter slugs in those kinetic weapons and you have a DOOZY of a weapon to use against anyone that can't block kinetics!

Conversely, a lot of people seem to think the Borg can adapt to anything, but they're basing this on what happens in the shows--where the Borg already have a significant technological advantage over other races. We just haven't seen what would happen when a technologically superior race attack the Borg; however good their adaptation is, it has to have limits.

Lastly, there's also the important detail that if the Borg were as all-powerful as everyone says, the Federation wouldn't keep on kicking their butts as often as they do. Heck, by the time you get toward the end of Voyager a single Federation starship is able to play havoc with the entire Borg collective...considering a single cube could take on pretty much the entire Federation fleet at engagements like Wolf 359 and the battle in Star Trek: First Contact, that's a major downer!

[sikyon]

Conversely, a lot of people seem to think the Borg can adapt to anything, but they're basing this on what happens in the shows--where the Borg already have a significant technological advantage over other races. We just haven't seen what would happen when a technologically superior race attack the Borg; however good their adaptation is, it has to have limits.

Lastly, there's also the important detail that if the Borg were as all-powerful as everyone says, the Federation wouldn't keep on kicking their butts as often as they do. Heck, by the time you get toward the end of Voyager a single Federation starship is able to play havoc with the entire Borg collective...considering a single cube could take on pretty much the entire Federation fleet at engagements like Wolf 359 and the battle in Star Trek: First Contact, that's a major downer!

Borg actually do attack more advanced races all the time: this is what they do. They assimilate techs they don't have, so obviously the races possessing them are more advanced.

Also voyager got really advanced future tech, and the tech was assimilated anyways at the end, so it wouldn't be effective against the remains of the collective.

[The_Snark]

I've only read the first 3 books, as I recall. Still, what I did read seemed to imply that the problem of relying on the Library to hold the answer to everything meant that tactics and technology rather stagnated...if that was later modified, then so be it!

It was sort of modified. The problem was that most Galactics took the approach that there was no point in doing scientific research, since somebody had almost certainly looked into it before you, which meant it would be in the Library. And that was true to some extent, but that didn't mean that a species living a million years ago hadn't made a discovery that was useless except for its ability to make another device work on a functional scale. With nobody making connections or finding anything new (because while the Library was huge, nothing can contain everything), you got stagnation. The real problem was that some species got the idea that attempting to innovate or make new connections was implying that the innovating race thought they were somehow better than all the species who came before them, and actively started avoiding scientific curiousity.

So relying on it completely was a bad idea, because nobody would put things together for you, but it's a great resource for reverse-engineering technology as it's used against you.

The other problem with using the Uplift books is that we're never given any sort of power scale for weaponry and the like, so I think it's hard to conclude anything.