PDA

View Full Version : Pokeballs for all



Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 08:51 PM
Just posting this here because I was bored and realized it works.

Step 1: Buy a scroll of gate at CL 22 (9,950 GP)
Step 2: Use Gate to Gate in a Solar
Step 3: Order the Solar to dispel its Protective Aura and not restart it.
Step 4: Order the Solar to fail its next will save.
Step 5: Cast Dominate Monster on the Solar.
Step 6: Order the Solar to fail its next will save.
Step 7: Order the Solar to never restart its Protective Aura
Step 8: Order the Solar to Plane Shift to you as soon as it is dismissed by you.
Step 9: Dismiss the Solar
Step 10: Wait for the Solar to return (takes a round or so)
Step 11: Suggest that the Solar let you improve him and not resist your next helpful spell. Tell him it will help fight evil better.
Step 12: Cast Programmed Amnesia (500 GP) on the Solar and completely rebuild his personality so he does whatever you want and forgets he ever had a Protective Aura ability.
Step 13: Cast Smokey Confinement on the Solar

Those are the 13 steps to getting a Solar Pokemon. It costs a bit over 10,000 GP if you use a scroll for gate.

These steps apply to pretty much any creature.

EDIT: So what are some other good things to capture?

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 08:58 PM
Outright ordering a creature to fail it's next will save and never restart its protective aura could probably be construed as "obviously self destructive", and might therefore be ignored even under the effects of a Dominate spell. You could probably squeak a Will Save in there, too...

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-26, 09:00 PM
Gotta catch 'em all!

So, where's this 'Smokey Confinement' spell from?

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 09:07 PM
Outright ordering a creature to fail it's next will save and never restart its protective aura could probably be construed as "obviously self destructive", and might therefore be ignored even under the effects of a Dominate spell. You could probably squeak a Will Save in there, too...

The outright ordering falls under the Gate orders. Which doesn't have the no self destructive orders line.

And the one for Programmed Amnesia is worded that way for just that reason. Solars don't resist magic that lets them fight evil better. And I didn't even lie. Being my ally will allow them to fight evil better because they will get a 9th level wizard on their side.

Smokey Confinement is from Complete Mage.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 09:26 PM
What's Dominate Monster for, then?

Douglas
2008-01-26, 09:27 PM
While not technically a lie, step 11 is definitely misleading and should require a successful bluff check vs the Solar's +32 sense motive.

Step 12 requires some way to disguise the spell, as the Solar would normally automatically identify it with his +31 spellcraft bonus and ignore any order to not resist it as a self-destructive order.

If any player tried this with me as DM, I would rule that the order to not restart the Protective Aura is obviously self-destructive and would therefore be ignored after step 9.

tyckspoon
2008-01-26, 09:30 PM
The outright ordering falls under the Gate orders. Which doesn't have the no self destructive orders line.

And the one for Programmed Amnesia is worded that way for just that reason. Solars don't resist magic that lets them fight evil better. And I didn't even lie. Being my ally will allow them to fight evil better because they will get a 9th level wizard on their side.

Smokey Confinement is from Complete Mage.

I'm pretty sure 'Never restart your protective aura' is outside the bounds of a Gate-commandable task, since that would necessarily involve taking an activity that lasts longer than 22 rounds and you aren't doing contractual service. That means you're relying on the authority of Dominate to make that command stick, and it *is* an obviously self-destructive order. Gate also says you only get to ask for one task, but that task is probably phrased as 'do everything I say until the spell ends' anyway. Thanks for the absurdly open-ended spell, Wizards!

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 09:46 PM
Gate Order: Fail your next will save.
Dominate Order: Never restart your Protective Aura
Gate Order: Fail your next will save.
Dominate Order: Never consider any order I give you to be against your nature or self destructive.

There. Problem solved.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 09:53 PM
Yeah, but those are still "obviously self destructive". There's not even a will save for that, they just won't listen to you.

Douglas
2008-01-26, 09:53 PM
Dominate Order: Never consider any order I give you to be against your nature or self destructive.
That is itself an obviously self destructive order.

Edit: Sorry, doesn't work at all even if you fix the issues already pointed out:

Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane.

bosssmiley
2008-01-26, 09:59 PM
This *may* be RAW, but it is totally not RAI.
What purpose does this serve other than an intellectual exercise please? :smallconfused:

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 10:02 PM
This *may* be RAW, but it is totally not RAI.
What purpose does this serve other than an intellectual exercise please? :smallconfused:

Having a couple of solars that you can pull out of your pocket whenever you feel inclined? That could be quite nice.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-26, 10:07 PM
This *may* be RAW, but it is totally not RAI.
What purpose does this serve other than an intellectual exercise please? :smallconfused:

What board are you on? 75% of everything here is merely an intellectual excercise.

Tengu
2008-01-26, 10:09 PM
Only an idiot DM or a very soft one with much more assertive rule lawyer players plays the game RAW, not RAI.

Douglas
2008-01-26, 10:16 PM
As I pointed out in my edit above, the domination is rendered unusable when the Solar returns to its home plane and is no longer on the same plane as you. The other problems can be solved by being a cleric with the domination domain and using Monstrous Thrall instead, but the same-plane restriction is still there.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 10:17 PM
Only an idiot DM or a very soft one with much more assertive rule lawyer players plays the game RAW, not RAI.

Or one who is equally nasty to their players. I have played strict RAW (only houserules were you can't walk around when dead, and no infinite loops IIRC) and it was quite fun. Just don't expect anything like a normal setting.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 10:18 PM
As I pointed out in my edit above, the domination is rendered unusable when the Solar returns to its home plane and is no longer on the same plane as you. The other problems can be solved by being a cleric with the domination domain and using Monstrous Thrall instead, but the same-plane restriction is still there.

No. You can't order it around any more but it still follows any previously given orders.

Collin152
2008-01-26, 10:33 PM
Okay, so Solar method is questionable, but I'd still use this basic premise on say, all the DInosaurs I encounter.

UglyPanda
2008-01-26, 10:49 PM
Step 1 is wrong. Scrolls above CL 20 are epic and cost ten times as much. This will end up costing you about 100,000 gold, not 10,000. You also need to find a way to protect your Solar from break enchantment or other such spells to remove your control.

Still extremely powerful, but much more reasonable.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 10:55 PM
Step 1 is wrong. Scrolls above CL 20 are epic and cost ten times as much. This will cost you 100,000 gold.

Still very powerful, but more reasonable.

Incorrect.

An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items.
A higher CL is not a bonus.

Hell, even the Epic Scrolls section doesn't mention it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/scrolls.htm

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-26, 10:58 PM
It doesn't have to be a solar, you know.

1. Plane Shift to somewhere safe
2. Use Gate spell/scroll to summon a Juvenile Red Dragon
3. Order it to 'accept' your next spell; the condition of 'accept' being simply 'not resisting' the said spell
4. Dominate it. No, not that kind of domination.
5. Order it once more, to 'accept' your next spell
6. Cast Programmed Amnesia to make it believe it's your pet dog who happens to breathe fire and fly
7. Smokey Confinement!
8. Plane Shift back to your normal plane.


You've got yourself a Charizard, congratulations!


Of course, you could just take Dragon Cohort feat, but this is much more interesting IMO.

UglyPanda
2008-01-26, 10:59 PM
The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.
...
* Has a caster level above 20th.
...


I'll concede if you can find something against it.

Also, a planetar only has 14 HD. Very useful.

Douglas
2008-01-26, 10:59 PM
I think the still following orders on another plane is open to interpretation, but that is one possible interpretation.

However, Solars are rare and powerful enough that someone is going to notice if one of them suddenly goes missing. You are liable to wake up one morning to find that some god (or maybe just a buddy Solar) has Wished your pet's memories back, and he's not happy with you.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 11:00 PM
The Problem is Programmed Amnesia has a 10 minute casting time and gate runs out in at most 20 rounds.

Douglas
2008-01-26, 11:03 PM
I'll concede if you can find something against it.
Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#marketPrice)

Yes, the scroll is an epic item and requires the Scribe Epic Scroll feat to make. It does not, however, cost 10x as much.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-26, 11:03 PM
Oh well, beat 'em 'till they're unconscious and cast Smokey Containment. It has a more catchy theme than the original. Pun intended.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 11:04 PM
I'll concede if you can find something against it.

Also, a planetar only has 14 HD. Very useful.


The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.
In general, not always. And as I said, even if they count as epic it doesn't matter. Scrolls don't get the x10 to their price. Just look at the epic Scrolls to see that.

Overlord
2008-01-26, 11:05 PM
Step 1 is wrong. Scrolls above CL 20 are epic and cost ten times as much. This will cost you 100,000 gold.

Still very powerful, but more reasonable.

Epic scrolls don't cost ten times as much as normal, if I'm reading the SRD correctly: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/scrolls.htm.

Under those rules, it looks to me like a CL-22 Scroll has a base cost of 6,050 GP. Gate has a 1,000 XP cost associated with casting the spell, which increases the market price by 5,000 GP. So that means that if I'm reading the rules correctly, a CL 22 scroll of Gate would have a market price of 11,050 GP.

Is that reasonable for what Emperor Tippy is suggesting the scroll would be used for? Heck no, that should cost a lot more if the idea actually ends up working. Is that reasonable for pretty much any other use of Gate? Yeah, I think so.

Don't take that the wrong way, Tippy. I think that your idea is great, and very funny. But I don't know if it'll work under the rules. I don't know how Programmed Amnesia works--could you Gate in the Solar, Dominate him, use programmed Amnesia, and then dismiss him, telling him to immediately return afterward?

EDIT: Ah, that ten-minute casting time would put a damper on that plan. Is Programmed Amnesia a normal arcane spell? Can you put it in a scroll or staff?

UglyPanda
2008-01-26, 11:11 PM
Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#marketPrice)

Yes, the scroll is an epic item and requires the Scribe Epic Scroll feat to make. It does not, however, cost 10x as much.
Weird. I'll stop arguing now.

Also, this idea isn't new, it's just not done often for DM sanity issues.

Edit: Geez, freaking ninjas.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 11:12 PM
Yeah. Programmed Amnesia is a 9th level Arcane spell. 500 GP Material Component.

It allows you to do lots of fun things to peoples minds. Including the complete rebuilding of their minds from the ground up.

It has won the honor of being considered the most broken spell in the game by me (barring infinite loops). I have gone from an unknown 20th level wizard to controlling every single nation in the world in under 3 ingame weeks with it.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 11:35 PM
If the Dominate effect doesn't work across planes, wouldn't it stop being compelled to obey you as soon as it Plane Shifted away? Following from there, wouldn't it immediately recall everything that had happened (including being dominated) and actively seek to contradict your orders?

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-26, 11:41 PM
No. You can't telepathically control then across planes but they follow any previous commands.

Citizen Joe
2008-01-27, 01:05 AM
You do realize that, IF gate works like that, with those commands, there is nothing stopping a demon from doing the same thing to your characters.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 01:09 AM
I'm a unique creature. And I always have a Mindblank up. So if by random chance he managed to grab me the Dominate wouldn't take.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-27, 01:57 AM
You do realize that, IF gate works like that, with those commands, there is nothing stopping a demon from doing the same thing to your characters.
If, as a DM, you want to take the in-game confrontational route to a cheesy character (generally a bad idea), that's not how you do it.

You Disjunction the whole mess.

Removes the Smoky Confinement, the Dominate Monster, Mind Blank, and any other spells he happens to have up all in one move.

So suddenly, not only does he have the thing that's currently attacking him attacking him, but he's also got that CR 22 critter that he previously had Dominated taking righteous vengeance.


I'm a unique creature. And I always have a Mindblank up. So if by random chance he managed to grab me the Dominate wouldn't take.
1) As the planes are infinite, you being a unique creature is subject to DM whimsey. In order for your character to not be unique, all the DM needs to do is photocopy your character sheet a few times and place the alternate tippy in an alternate prime material plane.
2) That just means he needs to dispel / order you to dispel the Mind Blank first.

Overlord
2008-01-27, 02:46 AM
Does Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) keep Gated creatures from leaving the area? If so, you can gate in the Solar, Dominate him, cast Dimensional Lock, and then use Programmed Amnesia.

Thane of Fife
2008-01-27, 09:06 AM
I don't think that that works.

Gate only allows one command - fail your next Will save. After that, he just hangs around, no longer under your power, until you stop concentrating, at which point he disappears.

Maybe I'm missing something.

The Glyphstone
2008-01-27, 09:17 AM
Well, Gate in its Calling Creatures function is not a spell with a duration of Concentration - that applies to the Portal function. Plus, it says that "any tasks that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level" counts as a single immediate task, so you can give him multiple orders as long as the total time it takes to finish them doesn't exceed, in this case, 22 rounds.

Bauglir
2008-01-27, 12:28 PM
Scroll of Mindrape, maybe? That should get around the 10 minute casting time on programmed amnesia.

daggaz
2008-01-27, 12:54 PM
I'm still wondering what happens to you when all of his solar buddies inevitably find out what you did to him... :smallamused:


If you even get that far..

Gate allows for one compulsary command, even if it can be achieved within one round, then thats the limit. So you order it to fail its next will save.

Then you start casting dominate monster... it will automatically recognize this spell for what it is. A good DM would make you roll initiative here to see if you can finish the spell before the Solar reacts. (six seconds is A LOT of time to one of these guys, and yeah, he is that good, he will know the spell before you finish it). This is not even houseruling really. If you drew your weapon on it, and said 'I attack the solar' you would expect to roll initiative. It is watching you and recognizes the action before you finish. Casting an offensive spell is a standard action and its recognizable, just like attempting a melee attack. You had also better hope the solar you called in doesnt have any nifty immediate actions handy (unless you are seriously playing CORE only to the letter and still trying tricks like this...) Something as simple as telepathically communicating to any other powerful ally on the prime plane would be pretty bad for you.

But lets say you get your dominate off.

Now you have a second problem. Ordering it to drop one of its most powerful natural defenses, which it has up all the time, naturally, is most certainly going against its nature. And you, some puny mortal, an absolute stranger who has already called it off its own plane against its free will, are now asking it to drop its most natural defense?? It will flat out refuse this order, and probably make its saving throw with its ginormous will save and the +2 you just tossed at it. Now you are dead. Even if it fails the save,..

Your gate spell is no longer valid. And the creature performed the immediate task, so it is now free to return to its homeplane, which it does automatically. (technically it should have returned the moment it performed this task, effectively nulling any chance for you to even try to cast a spell on it, tho im sure you can reword your command to get around that.)

So now you have a dominated solar somewhere on the celestial plane, well away from your possible control. And it just sits there, looking funny, awaiting further orders until.... its big solar friends come around and easily make the spot check to observe something is wrong with their shiny friend of rightous blazing power goodness. And they detect magic on him... and they dispel magic on him.... and they come and hunt your sorry ass down. Or the spell eventually wears off on its own, and the solar comes and hunts you down anyways.

Bauglir
2008-01-27, 01:25 PM
Hm, actually, why the Dominate? Just tell them to let you Mindrape them or Program some Amnesia. You can make them fanatically loyal to you with those spells, can't you?

Chronos
2008-01-27, 01:38 PM
I'm a unique creature. And I always have a Mindblank up. So if by random chance he managed to grab me the Dominate wouldn't take.You're the only Grey Elf in the world?

On the other hand, if you're trying to argue that you're unique by virtue of your unique personality, set of life experiences, etc., then the same is true of every Solar, and in fact every creature, so by that interpretation, you can't call any creature at all with Gate.

What "unique" is supposed to apply to here, is creatures like Bahamut. You can't gate in Bahamut (at least, not against his will), because he is the only Platinum Dragon in the multiverse.

Jothki
2008-01-27, 04:08 PM
You're the only Grey Elf in the world?

On the other hand, if you're trying to argue that you're unique by virtue of your unique personality, set of life experiences, etc., then the same is true of every Solar, and in fact every creature, so by that interpretation, you can't call any creature at all with Gate.

What "unique" is supposed to apply to here, is creatures like Bahamut. You can't gate in Bahamut (at least, not against his will), because he is the only Platinum Dragon in the multiverse.

It could also mean that you can't try to grab a particular individual. You could go for a solar, an elf, or an Overlord of Thalin's Waste, but you couldn't grab Bob the Solar, Elephant the elf, or Xadrixik the Overlord of Thalin's Waste.

Chronos
2008-01-27, 04:24 PM
It could also mean that you can't try to grab a particular individual. You could go for a solar, an elf, or an Overlord of Thalin's Waste, but you couldn't grab Bob the Solar, Elephant the elf, or Xadrixik the Overlord of Thalin's Waste.Doesn't work:
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.So a "particular being" is pulled through, willing or unwilling, but a "unique being" gets a choice.

13_CBS
2008-01-27, 04:32 PM
Ok, by RAW, this seems to work fine.

BUT! If someone were a DM, and a player tried to pull this off and you allow it, what would be the consequences?

1) The Heavens send more celestials after you to investigate, wondering where their powerful Solar went?

2) The Heavens find out exactly what happened and send an army of celestials after you?

3) Nothing?

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 05:22 PM
Hey I found a better and easier way to do this.

Mind Rape from the Book of Vile Darkness.

Gate in your solar (or whatever else you want). Order him to obey any orders you give for the next 20 rounds. Order him to fail his next willsave. Order him to lower his protective aura. Mind Rape him.

Since Mind Rape only takes 1 standard action you don't need the Dominate. And Since its instantaneous instead of Permanent the Protective Aura coming back up won't affect it. And neither will any AMF's you run into.

TheOtherMC
2008-01-27, 05:48 PM
.....you want a pokeball just use Soul Trap.....really its that simple. Works on all sorts of non-solar things too.

Collin152
2008-01-27, 06:09 PM
.....you want a pokeball just use Soul Trap.....really its that simple. Works on all sorts of non-solar things too.

That won't let me call it out to do my bidding...

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 06:11 PM
Yeah but it costs a lot more.

And with Mind Rape you get them super devoted to you forever.

Voyager_I
2008-01-27, 06:15 PM
.....you want a pokeball just use Soul Trap.....really its that simple. Works on all sorts of non-solar things too.

He wants an obedient servant, not something that will pop out and try to stomp on him.

TheOtherMC
2008-01-27, 06:18 PM
He wants an obedient servant, not something that will pop out and try to stomp on him.

Hey, i can throw a small black gem worth roughly 20k a prety far distance into a town :P

EDIT: Hmmm can seem find on SRD what i was looking for, i seem to remember something about whateve3r getting released owing a boon or something to the captor....and also that it was conjuration.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 06:35 PM
Hey, i can throw a small black gem worth roughly 20k a prety far distance into a town :P

EDIT: Hmmm can seem find on SRD what i was looking for, i seem to remember something about whateve3r getting released owing a boon or something to the captor....and also that it was conjuration.

Trap the Soul. If you release them then you can require it to perform 1 service immediately upon being released. They are under no obligation not to try and weasel their way out of said service or make your life a living hell. And the gem costs 1,000 GP per HD. So 22K for a solar.

So what are some good things to make into pets?

At CL 18 gate will give you 3 Succubus's, and everyone needs a harem. :smallwink:
Balor's and Pit Fiends are pretty good as well (not for the Harem but for fighting).
Great Wrym Red, Silver, and Gold dragons come to mind. And the silver and gold ones can even change shape without spells.

If you want to get Epic monsters then you can grab off a LeShay at CL 25. One of those would make a great Majordomo for your house.

At CL 23 you can pick up a Three-Headed Sirrush. These will make great kittens to play with the kids. Make sure to pick up a ring of sustenance though or it will be a pain to keep the kitty fed.

Tayella's are pretty nice kitties as well. And you can get one of them at CL 17.

I haven't looked outside of the SRD yet so any other suggestions are welcome.

TheOtherMC
2008-01-27, 06:45 PM
Trap the Soul. If you release them then you can require it to perform 1 service immediately upon being released. They are under no obligation not to try and weasel their way out of said service or make your life a living hell. And the gem costs 1,000 GP per HD. So 22K for a solar.

So what are some good things to make into pets?

At CL 18 gate will give you 3 Succubus's, and everyone needs a harem. :smallwink:
Balor's and Pit Fiends are pretty good as well (not for the Harem but for fighting).
Great Wrym Red, Silver, and Gold dragons come to mind. And the silver and gold ones can even change shape without spells.

If you want to get Epic monsters then you can grab off a LeShay at CL 25. One of those would make a great Majordomo for your house.

At CL 23 you can pick up a Three-Headed Sirrush. These will make great kittens to play with the kids. Make sure to pick up a ring of sustenance though or it will be a pain to keep the kitty fed.

Tayella's are pretty nice kitties as well. And you can get one of them at CL 17.

I haven't looked outside of the SRD yet so any other suggestions are welcome.

There it is!

Yeah, well, last i checked a Tarrasque isnt too good at logic. :P

(and an abysmally low will save (comparativly at least) so that helps with the trapping)

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 06:47 PM
Yeah but Big T is unique. I can't gate him in.

Collin152
2008-01-27, 06:57 PM
Yeah, but he's quite uninteligent. Gate is unnesecary, just cast some spells and try it from on his back until it works.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 07:03 PM
Yeah but I have to find him first. The rest of these I can just gate in and capture.

Collin152
2008-01-27, 07:11 PM
Yes, but then he's just like any other Legendary Pokemon. He's asleep somewhere, you find him, theres a long and anoying battle where you try not to die/kill him, then you end up restarting anyways because you ran out of spell slots.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 07:14 PM
Yeah.

But I prefer a dozen LeShay riding Great Wrym Silver Dragons (can't get Great Wrym Force dragons with any reliability).

Wizard: "Party Posse, I choose you"
*Wizard throws 2 dozen Smokey Confinement vials out in front of him*

Newtkeeper
2008-01-27, 07:41 PM
I'm a unique creature.


No, you aren't. You are a human (or elf, or half-orc) with class levels. And comrade Balor's dispel magic might give your mindblank a hard time. Anyway, forget demons. When other solars get wind of this, the will be annoyed. Very annoyed.

EDIT: And, again, no sane GM will allow this. If you want to talk hypothetical cheese, why stop half way. I hear the have that kobold down to level one, now- and your solar has nothing on him.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 07:47 PM
No, you aren't. You are a human (or elf, or half-orc) with class levels. And comrade Balor's dispel magic might give your mindblank a hard time. Anyway, forget demons. When other solars get wind of this, the will be annoyed. Very annoyed.
The point is that they can't call me specifically easily. If someone just gates in a (insert my race here) then there is a 1 in (insert number of whatever my race is here, most likely infinity) chance of him getting me.


EDIT: And, again, no sane GM will allow this.
If one of my players came up with this and said "I want a posse of Dragon Riding LeShay" then I would allow it just because of how funny it is. Then I would come up with challenges for a wizard and his 12 dragon riding LeShay cohorts to go do. Now if someone just grabbed this off the web and tried to do it I would just shoot them down.


If you want to talk hypothetical cheese, why stop half way. I hear the have that kobold down to level one, now- and your solar has nothing on him.
Pun-Pun requires an infinite loop or 2 and books I don't allow in my games.

Collin152
2008-01-27, 07:53 PM
Gate cheese aside, I think I want to try this kind of thing; a character who captures their enemies and forces them to fight for them while they suprevise invisibly.

Worira
2008-01-27, 07:54 PM
Please, read other peoples posts. You can indeed be called specifically. And don't say you came up with a better way to do something when someone suggests it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 08:09 PM
Please, read other peoples posts. You can indeed be called specifically. And don't say you came up with a better way to do something when someone suggests it.

WTH are you talking about?

I started this thread. It was my idea. I was browsing through the Book of Vial Darkness and saw Mind Rape. That much improved the process. I posted that I had improved on the process that I had invented (in my 2 1/2 years on these forums I have never seen it mentioned before at least).

EDIT: Apparently Bauglir mentioned Mind Rape before I did. I never noticed it before posting my post but I guess he did mention it first in this thread.
END EDIT

And I said I could be called specifically. But it requires that the creature calling me know my name and have a reason to call me specifically. Or I could be called out of sheer random chance but that has odds so terrible as to be a non issue short of DM fiat.

Collin152
2008-01-27, 08:11 PM
True. They know their buddy vanished, but do they know who dun it?

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 08:16 PM
True. They know their buddy vanished, but do they know who dun it?

Scrying I suppose. But thats what you have Mind Blank for.

Worira
2008-01-27, 08:19 PM
They cast as 20th level clerics. They have Wish as a SLA. They're on good terms with the gods. They're not going to have trouble finding out your name.

Newtkeeper
2008-01-27, 08:23 PM
Scrying I suppose. But thats what you have Mind Blank for.

Don't forget to Mind Blank the Solar, too. If his buddies notice he's missing, their first response will be to scry at him, I suspect.

RE: Being summoned yourself: if a demon could summon a specific mortal, a high level wizard would be high on the list (right below paladin). Don't discount random summoning, either- sure, there are a lot of *your race*, but there are a lot of demons and devils out there, and many of them know magic. If there is only one Prime Material Plane, and Infinite Layers in the Abyss, all humans will wind up summoned. If there are an infinite number of Material Planes, well, I can't do the math. Anyone?

Chronos
2008-01-27, 08:46 PM
Interestingly, the Second Edition version of the Monster Summoning spell specifically noted that occasionally, a PC could find himself summoned by some more powerful caster. So at some point, at least, someone at TSR considered the possibility.


If there is only one Prime Material Plane, and Infinite Layers in the Abyss, all humans will wind up summoned. If there are an infinite number of Material Planes, well, I can't do the math. Anyone?Insufficient data for a meaningful answer. Given such conditions, the probability of any given mortal getting summoned could be anything between 0 and 1. Even when we take into account that every material plane would have potential summoners, the probability can still be arbitrarily low.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-27, 09:11 PM
Scrying I suppose. But thats what you have Mind Blank for.
They don't need to Scry. Once they find out their buddy is blocked from Discern Location, they switch over to the Transport Travelers clause of Wish.

They don't need any information about you - they just need to have a sufficiently rough idea of what's up to know that someone did something hostile to their friend, then Wish (repeatedly, if needed - these are Solars we're talking about, with Wish as a 1/day spell-like ability) for that person to be moved to a location of the Solars' choosing. A Solar has a DC 24 Wish right out of the box - Eagle's Splendor pushes that to 26, and there's probably some non-core Cleric spells that do better, plus the possibility of them Wishing up magic items (such as a +5 Tome or a +6 Cloak) beforehand to make the DC tougher.

How many Will saves can you pass before you're toast?

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 09:21 PM
You don't need to mind blank the solar after mind raping him. Just send him back to his buddies to tell them that he is doing something or other for goodiness. Perhaps attempting to covert every Balor to being extra good. And its not even a bluff if you do the Solars memories right.

Know one can tell that anything has been done to a person who is Mind Raped. Even if you don't rebuild the person the guy you hit with it doesn't even know what you did to him.

Besides, if people get annoyed at you for Mind Raping solars just use LeShay or dragons.

The_Werebear
2008-01-27, 09:29 PM
One thing- Why would people (Demons, rather) be wasting their time summoning mortal races? When you cast a summoning spell like this, you get the bog standard version of the creature. No frills, no special magic gear, nothing. For a summons to the outer plains, 99.9999% of demons are going to get a 1st level NPC class. Probably commoner. So, why would they even bother if they can go for something they know has punch? Any old random elemental is going to whale on the majority of the mortal races in comparison.

There's a Nodwick strip that talks about this. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit- Here is it (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/gamespyarchive/index.php?date=2005-10-27). This sums up why the odds of you getting summoned are pretty low. Most things don't have the time to waste or patience to go through millions of these to get to you.

Worira
2008-01-27, 09:39 PM
You don't need to mind blank the solar after mind raping him. Just send him back to his buddies to tell them that he is doing something or other for goodiness. Perhaps attempting to covert every Balor to being extra good. And its not even a bluff if you do the Solars memories right.

Know one can tell that anything has been done to a person who is Mind Raped. Even if you don't rebuild the person the guy you hit with it doesn't even know what you did to him.

Besides, if people get annoyed at you for Mind Raping solars just use LeShay or dragons.

The DC to detect that someone's under an enchantment is 25. The DC to get a hunch that something's wrong is 20. Solars have a sense motive of +32.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 09:49 PM
The DC to detect that someone's under an enchantment is 25. The DC to get a hunch that something's wrong is 20. Solars have a sense motive of +32.

Read Mind Rape. It's instantaneous. Once you finish rebuilding them thats how they are, they aren't enchanted any more. Thats one of the reasons it beats Programmed Amnesia.

Worira
2008-01-27, 09:53 PM
Hunch

This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.
Sense Enchantment

You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities.

First, they can still make a hunch, which is plenty. Secondly, they are certainly being influenced by an enchantment effect. The fact that it's instantaneous doesn't mean it's not influencing the Solar's actions.

Vexxation
2008-01-27, 09:58 PM
First, they can still make a hunch, which is plenty. Secondly, they are certainly being influenced by an enchantment effect. The fact that it's instantaneous doesn't mean it's not influencing the Solar's actions.

I don't think so. They were affected by an enchantment effect while you raped them.. er.. Mind Raped them, but after you finished, they aren't really being affected by your spell anymore; that is, you aren't impressing magical will upon them. They just happen to think that things are different from reality. They aren't enchanted, just permanently deceived. And since they don't know they're being deceived by their own mind, they aren't deceiving. They're telling the "truth."

At least, that's how I see it.

Worira
2008-01-27, 10:00 PM
Irrelevant. Sense Motive is nonmagical. It doesn't matter whether the spell's still active, it's influencing their actions.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 10:04 PM
Irrelevant. Sense Motive is nonmagical. It doesn't matter whether the spell's still active, it's influencing their actions.

Not by RAW. They aren't enchanted.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-27, 10:10 PM
Not by RAW. They aren't enchanted.

Sense Enchantment: You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities.
The spell is Instantaneous, so there's not a currently active spell... but as the behavior post-spell is different from the behavior pre-spell, the spell is still influencing the Solar's behavior. The skill makes no mention of whether the spell lingers or not.

Collin152
2008-01-27, 10:35 PM
Well, the Solar is a Solar... send a simulcram to talk to them or something, because he's so busy doing whatever incredibly important hing is occupyign his time. A simalcrum is somewhat differant from the originial, isn't it?

Chronos
2008-01-28, 02:27 AM
One thing- Why would people (Demons, rather) be wasting their time summoning mortal races? When you cast a summoning spell like this, you get the bog standard version of the creature. No frills, no special magic gear, nothing. For a summons to the outer plains, 99.9999% of demons are going to get a 1st level NPC class.This is the difference between calling and summoning (or at least, one of the differences). Summoning only gets you the standard, off-the-shelf version of the creature, but calling effects let you try for particular individuals, and the creature itself comes, not just an astral projection, and with whatever stuff it comes with. So, sure, you'd never bother calling John Ivanson, the level 1 dirt farmer, but you could call Marvolo the Magnificent, the level 20 wizard/master specialist/Initiate of the Seven Veils/archmage.

The_Werebear
2008-01-28, 11:26 AM
This is the difference between calling and summoning (or at least, one of the differences). Summoning only gets you the standard, off-the-shelf version of the creature, but calling effects let you try for particular individuals, and the creature itself comes, not just an astral projection, and with whatever stuff it comes with. So, sure, you'd never bother calling John Ivanson, the level 1 dirt farmer, but you could call Marvolo the Magnificent, the level 20 wizard/master specialist/Initiate of the Seven Veils/archmage.

That requires them to know your name though, which might get problematic, especially since Wizards have the habit of running around Mindblanked at all times. Not that that is impossible to remove, but it makes them a hell of a lot harder to find and remove it.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-28, 04:16 PM
WHY CAN'T I USE SMOKY CONFINEMENT ON MY ANIMATED DRAGON SKELETONS!!! *cry*

AnnShadow
2008-01-31, 11:45 AM
Solar

When the mightiest of the demons, the most hell-bent destructor fiends and the evil deities themselves crawl from the pits of Baator to challenge good, the Solar angels will always be among the defenders. Solar angels are the elite fighting force of justice in the planes, and when not fighting evil, they are in the direct service of the good deities.



Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25

A 23 INT and a 25 Wis ... that makes him a supra genius and supra wise. I am guessing that the solar would slay you outright unless you protect yourself by other means.

With his 25 Charisma and 32 in the Skill Sense Motive ... um what is your Bluff Skill again?I would guess that he might not slay you outright but make you HIS minion.

Lets not forget his Spell Resistance 32.

Lets not forget that protection from evil block domination or mind control and the solar has:

The following abilities are always active on a solar’s person, as the spells (caster level 20th): detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 21), see invisibility, true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the solar can reactivate them as a free action.


Angel Subtype
Angels are a race of celestials, or good outsiders, native to the good-aligned Outer Planes.
[edit] Traits

An angel possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
* Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
* Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
* +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
* Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.)
* Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.

Magic circle blocks your domination.


I do not have the book in front of me and this is a quote off a site; but Solars are the representatives of Good Dieties.

Exactly how are you getting around a deity suddenly missing one of his solars?

Or are you saying a Greater God is not going to notice that someone has opened a Gate spell in its domain and stole one of its personal solars?



Here is the way I see it going. Gate spell: Solars are generally in pairs or more and with a deity... Deity sees the gate: can you even cast a gate near a deity? anyway since you are not calling a Specific Solar and since most solars are hanging out doing the work of Deities as a dm I would say ... Make a roll to see if your gate spell opens in front of a deity.... make a roll to see how many solars are in the area ....

So lets say you get lucky and there is a single solar ... All solars have AT WILL the following:


Commune Divination
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF, XP
Casting time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Targets, Effect, or Area: You
Duration: 1 round/level

You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. (A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity.) You are allowed one such question per caster level. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.

Solar Int 23 Wis 25 I'm guessing its AT WILL commune to a Deity (after all it knows deities personally) will be something even more clever than .... I'm being sucked to the material plane by a gate spell .... can you send help?

So Gate opens solar is compelled to step through does its AT WILL commune. Maybe it does an AT WILL : WISH spell .... like wishing the gate would close.


If you are lucky it will just ignore your attempt to gate it in ... if not its at will wish spell and at will commune will soon make you a dead wizard.


You "I want you to miss your next will save"
Solar "Oh .... and why should I do that?"
You "I summoned you and you are bound to do as I say"
Solar: at will wish" I wish I knew why you wanted me to do that?
You: "You have no choice. Just do as I say."

Solar makes his sense motive roll.
Solar: at will commune "I need to know if it will be weal or woe for me to do as you say"
Solar's God "help is on the way"
You "I command you to miss your next will save"

5 solars and 10 Plantars surround you.
A solar looks your way and says "Pelor wishes to see you"

DM Make 5 fort saves DC 37

You "what this is nutz"