The How-It-Should-Be Rogue: Inquiry Thread

[Fax Celestis]

I've been pondering a HiSB Rogue rewrite. If I were to do so, what would you want?

Something I know I will be using is my rewrite text for Sneak Attack and including a few per-day abilities (like spells, but not spells).

[Reinboom]

Something with a bit of complete scoundrel flair.
Without ripping the complete scoundrel.

A level 20 ability.

To be the main skillmonkey again, beguiler... is... too much of an improvement over the rogue at the rogue's job.

and the biggest:
a partial skills rewrite. Open Lock needs to be part of disable device damnit!.. .. .. but that is only partially directed towards the rogue. :smalltongue:

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

A re-write of the Hide skill, at the very least in terms of how it relates to the Rogue, and if possible overall.

Also, Hide in Plain Sight and some clarification on just how it works, and what it does.

Also, 're-write'? Did you already do a HiSB Rogue and I missed it?

[Fax Celestis]

Also, 're-write'? Did you already do a HiSB Rogue and I missed it?

No, as in "rewriting it HiSB style."

[Vadin]

Different sneak attack damages for when you're flanking and when they're flatfooted would be awesome.

[Stycotl]

I've been pondering a HiSB Rogue rewrite. If I were to do so, what would you want?

Something I know I will be using is my rewrite text for Sneak Attack and including a few per-day abilities (like spells, but not spells).

i'm lousy with acronyms. is this a reference to ad&d 'thief' abilities?

[SilentNight]

Some more special abilities. Maybe one involving miss-chance.

[Fax Celestis]

i'm lousy with acronyms. is this a reference to ad&d 'thief' abilities?

HiSB = How-it-Should-Be.

[Danin]

i'm lousy with acronyms. is this a reference to ad&d 'thief' abilities?

Nothing that exciting. HiSB stands for How it should be, like in the title.

Back on topic, I can only offer my approval. I love the Rogue but the core one is rubbish. Things to include would be:

A level 20 ability
Fewer dead levels (We lack abilities that scream "Cool")
It's already been mentioned, but some use per day and use per encounter abilities
Some option of an anti spell caster ability

Just my 2 copper, but I'm only somewhat concious right now so this list is subject to change.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Did a "warrior assassin" base class recently, so I'll toss out the suggestion that was my main aim: change sneak attack. As it stands, sneak attack is one of the worst offenders of the main issue of D&D balance; it's either utterly devastating or completely useless depending on the situation. I went with 1d6/level, limited to only the first attack in a round (assuming it qualifies), and as the class advanced they could use it to do things other than precision-based damage (though in different amounts), but whatever works.

((EDIT: And if I would read just a little closer, I'd have noticed you mentioned changing sneak attack in your first post))

You could probably also do well with an expanded list of special abilities that have certain skills as prerequisites, or that improve based on skill rank. For example...instead of all rogues getting evasion and improved uncanny dodge, they are available to rogues with enough ranks in Tumble and...I suppose Listen, respectively. Then other skills offer other abilities.

[Chronos]

If you ask me, there are only two problems with the rogue, as it stands: First, the dead level at 20. This is just a glaring oversight: Even if they don't get a capstone, there should be some reason to take the level. Still, though, this is only an issue at all in the few games which reach 20th level, so it's not that big a deal.

Second, the existence of classes like the Beguiler and the Spellthief which can do everything the rogue does and then some. If you allow those classes, there's no reason to play a rogue. But that's a problem with codex creep, not a problem with the class itself.

So if you want to fix the rogue class, all you need to do is toss them something at level 20 (or just not play that high), and play Core (or Core plus supplements which don't include things like the Beguiler and Spellthief). Presto, a good class who's the best there is at what it does, without overshadowing others, and which is able to contribute at every level.


Something I know I will be using is my rewrite text for Sneak Attack and including a few per-day abilities (like spells, but not spells).The lack of per-day abilities is one of the things which is exactly right about rogues. I play rogues because I like being able to do a variety of nifty things, and I like doing them as often as I want, whenever I want. If I want to play a character who has to budget out a limited pool of abilities, I'll play a spellcaster.

[Hoorex]

Maybe some options from making your rogue more ninja-y to more of a public speaker and persuader, to a more lethal tricky dude, or even some disguise special abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

The lack of per-day abilities is one of the things which is exactly right about rogues. I play rogues because I like being able to do a variety of nifty things, and I like doing them as often as I want, whenever I want. If I want to play a character who has to budget out a limited pool of abilities, I'll play a spellcaster.

The introduction of per-day abilities--which really isn't an introduction, since a rogue already has them (ie: defensive roll, slippery mind, et al)--would be coupled with a stripping of similar abilities (such as knock) from spellcasters and essentially giving them to rogues as a per-day non-spell.