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View Full Version : Is this a sign of a bad DM?



Sanzh
2008-01-27, 11:30 PM
Finally decided to stop lurking :smallredface:
So one of my friends has decided to start his own D&D campaign. Given that it's his first try, and he asked me to join, I hop along as a Whisper Gnome Swordsage. We're starting at level 4ish.
After a single session, we (our party), have killed two illithids and a ten headed Cyrohydra, in addition to earning more than 8,000 gp worth of art, jewelry, and gold, and a +2 thundering vicious intelligent glaive (capable of healing and some other abilities), a +2 flaming burst keen dagger, a wand of acid arrow, and a ring of sustenance. Not to mention going up a level, one party member being a full blooded dragon (with an ECL of 11), as well as blatantly breaking rules (I tried to object and was promptly shot down with the vocal equivalent of AA fire).
Now, maybe I'm paranoid and anti-loot, but is this a sign of a bad DM?

sikyon
2008-01-27, 11:31 PM
If you are having fun, no. If you are not, then yes.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-27, 11:33 PM
Whether he is a bad DM is a matter of taste, but I would say it is likely that he doesn't have a head for tactics, or completely understand the abilities of the monsters he's using, or both.

tyckspoon
2008-01-27, 11:37 PM
It sounds more like signs of a new DM to me. He's just throwing in whatever seems cool at the time and probably seriously fudging the dice so it doesn't kill the party. I would say give him and the rest of the party a few sessions to work that out of their systems. If they don't settle down after that, well.. I'm hesitant to call it bad DMing, as such, because as Sikyon said if the players are having fun it is by definition a good game. It can easily be a game you don't like, however, and if that happens you should be willing to either look for a different game or bring up your concerns and ask if the DM and group would be willing to play with some more by-the-book elements.

sonofzeal
2008-01-27, 11:49 PM
I tried to object and was promptly shot down with the vocal equivalent of AA fire
This, yes. The rest is more of a play style issue. Some people like the absurdly high level stuff and enjoy just going silly with it, at the expense of the rules. This isn't a bad thing, and I've had fun with that on occasion. If you prefer rules-heavy, reasonable-power games, find another group. Otherwise, roll with it.

Star_Rider
2008-01-28, 12:55 AM
I'm a fairly new DM myself, and I'm still getting the hang of things. I pretty much did the same thing on my very first practice-ish campaign (defeating a purple worm by igniting it's own vomit...yeah). Until you guys decide on a campaign that you wanna really try on, I say let the DM go crazy. I wouldnt call him a bad DM, but rather a DM in training.

But...an intelligent glaive with healing ability? Wow.

Behold_the_Void
2008-01-28, 01:41 AM
Sounds fairly absurd and Monty-Haul. I think I did something like that my first session DMing. I had no idea what I was doing. It could be that, but the defensiveness regarding the rules is troubling.

nargbop
2008-01-28, 01:59 AM
New DM syndrome. If it's fun, it's cool. If you prefer to not play with guys who break the rules, don't play.

Let this game ( or chapter ) end , and the DM will have a better idea of what is reasonable at the level you're playing. Such as, say, NO DRAGON CHARACTERS. GAH !

Icewalker
2008-01-28, 02:00 AM
Well, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to run a campaign where you give the players crazy loot, as long as you have power appropriate challenges instead of level appropriate challenges. After that, it just depends on whether or not he is a good DM in other ways, which, as you didn't mention them, I'd assume are fine (is it fun, etc).

Cuddly
2008-01-28, 02:12 AM
He's a bad DM.

Ominous
2008-01-28, 02:25 AM
He's a bad DM.

Hardly.

D&D is a game and the group concerned is who decides what is the right way and the wrong way to play. If your group ends up slaying deities and gaining major artifacts as normal loot, that's fine as long as you're having fun.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-28, 02:26 AM
It sounds like most first-time DMs. No matter what the system, people who haven't played seriously (play seriously haha) before tend toward this sort of thing. They throw the cool stuff at the players and let the players do crazy stuff. It's fun for awhile but ultimately leads to ridiculousness especially once the DM and players learn the rules a little better and understand why these cool creatures and loot are so cool.

I think narg hit the nail on the head. My question: Is it his first time iwth D&D ever, or is it his first time DM'ing and has he seen a more traditional game being played?

valadil
2008-01-28, 12:01 PM
New DM. He'll learn. Just try to have fun and don't take it too seriously. He just needs time to make mistakes before he can learn from them.

Artanis
2008-01-28, 12:18 PM
Such as, say, NO DRAGON CHARACTERS. GAH !
Hell, even the dragon isn't that big a problem compared to said dragon being nearly triple the ECL of the rest of the party

Seffbasilisk
2008-01-28, 01:47 PM
I would recommend you write out a comprehensive list of everything you feel is wrong, and add quotations from the rules to explain why it's wrong, and if need be, a small paragraph explaining why the rule is as such.

IE: The dragon member of the party. As per the rules, he has X hit dice, and a LA of +Y. As such he counts an an eleventh level PC. Which means, since we're all just level 5 now, he can handle dangers more then twice as powerful as we can without really exerting himself. Additionally, anything to really threaten him will completely slaughter the rest of us. I'd prefer it if we all stayed roughly in the same power area by the rules.

Thank him at the end of the whole thing, explain you empathize with the complexity of DMing, and offer to help where you can.

I'd say show him the list before a session, but when it's just you and him. If someone tries to shout him down as DM, cut them off, and remind them that the DM is final arbiter, and shouting people down doesn't prove anything except that you're louder.

As I said, I'd recommend just letting the DM know of the slip ups, perhaps some proposed fixes (IE: The dragon doesn't gain any more levels until we reach his power level), and offer to help. A lot of newbie DMs don't fully have a grasp on the rules. If you make sure you know them and can input a 'The PHB has rules for climbing. Climbing that would be DC 15.' you can take a load of the stress off him, and it'll be easier for him to handle running the game.

The biggest problem from what I read, was the
shot down with the vocal equivalent of AA fire.

Additionally, make sure he knows of the WBL table, and the random treasure table. Some DMs prefer to roll because then they don't have to pre-gen, and there's the element of chance in the loot. (Also easier for a new DM if it's been explained.)

Sanzh
2008-01-28, 06:33 PM
Okay. Wow. Thanks for really promptly answering my question.
I probably should have said that this is his first time DMing. So, self-admittedly, I kind of overreacted. He has played before (he introduced me to D&D to begin with, as well as some of my other friends).
From what I know, all the treasure was randomly generated, so the obvious problem there was (as Seffbasilisk) said, was ignoring WBL.
I should also have mentioned that we brought down all the monsters thrown at us within 3 rounds, tops (the hardest was the first Ithillid, which stunned two people and had some thralls that exploded).
Anyway, thanks for the advice. I'll probably give him a second chance next weekend, but I'll keep in mind what you guys suggested he could change.

Voyager_I
2008-01-28, 07:57 PM
Sounds like a classic case of "Dood, playing a Dragon with enough lewts to buy his own private magical floating island is sooooooo cools!!!"

Once they realize that be arbitrarily powerful gets old quickly, they'll probably move on to playing actual games. Right now, they just want to play with the coolest toys they can find. It should pass.

Tormsskull
2008-01-28, 08:11 PM
Just don't take the game too seriously, treat it as it sounds, a silly monty-haul type campaign, and have fun.

FlyMolo
2008-01-28, 08:43 PM
I'm running a first-ever Dming campaign. Dming is hard. It's easy to say "yeah sure, be a dragon" and hard to say "Lemme find a way to make this not ridiculously overpowered, and also fun."

Hopefully I'm doing alright, and most of player's issues tend to be with each other. That's harder to solve. It's kind of my fault, though, because I was trying to leave the requirements open, and ended up with too many players. (10 players! Eeek!)

Voyager_I
2008-01-28, 08:57 PM
Consider introducing your gaming group into the Dragon Shaman (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) Base Class, while you're at it.

Zarrexaij
2008-01-28, 08:59 PM
He's just a newbie DM. I pretty much still am, too.

After all, I accidently almost killed half my party by sending a young green dragon after them. They were level 3-4ish. I didn't have to fudge rolls though. They survived all right, thanks to the cleric and psion NPC that was helping them find someone.

I'd say to gently nudge him if he's doing something either too easy, too hard, or too... weird (a dragon a good amount of levels ahead of the group? whaa?).

Frosty
2008-01-28, 09:09 PM
My first time DMing, I'm giving my characters a metric ton of wealth...but mostly not in liquid capital. I give them some metamagic rods and some wondrous items of my own creation in terms of the extra wealth, so at least control some of the cheesiness. I also give them "very difficult" encounters like 60% of the time, "overwhelming" encounters 20% of the time, and "challenging" encounters 20% of the time.

But they, they've got a 40 pt-buy and generous items. They survive.

kemmotar
2008-01-28, 09:45 PM
Well...my advice(having DMd a couple of sessions with dubious outcomes) is to start with a one or two ready campaigns(either from dragon magazines or just find a few books with them..they can be found...easilly*wink*) till he gets the hang of DMing and your abilities...
When i first DMd i had a similar problem, I found some monsters but was unsure whether the players could actually take them down so i reduced their attack roll, hp and AC...turned out i had made far too easy on them and the loot i had decided on was too much for the difficulty i gave them...Furthermore, i fell into the trap of the DMPC...a fallen angel etc with a shiny cool breastplate, a big shiny sword etc...she could probably have taken down half the party easilly...anyway, i say let the campaign go as far as it can, have fun(that's the main thing in D&D, if you're not having fun then there's no reason to play...) but meanwhile tell your DM to work something out for the dragon, maybe a curse that forces him into a human form he takes negative levels, or maybe some kind of trial (PCs never like to be cursed for too long), he must accept the curse and then complete some quest (plothook for the next campaign, maybe a ready one such as recovering some artifact or killing a certain monster) with the promise of power...by the time the other PCs reach 9-10 levels you can let him turn back into a dragon thus pretty much resolving the level issue...

However, monty-haul campaigns can be really fun to play...just not all the time:smallbiggrin:

WrstDmEvr
2008-01-28, 10:20 PM
Wow, this is so weird. Apparently, the typical new DM overpowers his own creatures(based on what I've seen by this thread). I've been doing it wrong all along.:smallbiggrin:

Serpentine
2008-01-28, 10:21 PM
It's kind of my fault, though, because I was trying to leave the requirements open, and ended up with too many players. (10 players! Eeek!)This is what happened with our first game, and it ended up dying fairly quickly. I strongly recommend removing some players, or perhaps breaking it up into two separate groups. It could be alright for a little while, but in our game at least it really detracted from the whole thing - some people were just sitting there chatting and not keeping up with the action, the DM was only focussing on one or two people at a time leaving other people to do their own thing, some players would do some roleplaying without the DM knowing what's going on... Other problems included overpowered lewts (potions that give permanent ability bonuses, a weapon that can change into any other weapon as a free action (my character got that... it was very cool, but still)...), underpowered encounters (she thought our 15 level party would have trouble with a few stirges :smallconfused:), overpowered DMPCs, arbitrary houserules she thought were core (Clerics wouldn't wear armour?!) but that's just DM, not group size.
Anyway, a big group could be okay for now, but be prepared for some serious issues.

Sanzh, I'd go with the others: Give the DM a few more games to get settled in and settled down, but keep an eye on things just in case.