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Diarmuid
2008-01-28, 10:22 AM
Hey all, I'm starting up a new adventure with my group and we had a "playtest" day to help teach the new to 3.5 players the combat mechanics and to give everyone a chance to get a feel for their character before we start playing.

In doing so, a couple of things came up that I wasnt exactly sure how to adjudicate. I made some on-the-spot rulings but wanted to get some other opinions on the matter.

1) Attacking from Hiding.

A rogue managed to slip behind some cover and hide at the beginning of a combat. As the two parties (good guys, some ogres) came together, he moved into position (maintaining his hide) and eventually took a full attack action to throw two daggers at one of the ogres from 15" away.

Would both attacks be eligible for sneak attack damage? Because the rogue is hidden, he is considered invisible, and therefore the ogre would be denied its dexterity to it's AC. But, the invisible state is broken when he attacks a creature. My main problem with this was making sure to maintain the balance between Rapid Shot and TWF. In the case of Rapid Shot, there is a distinctive delay between the two attacks, and in theory the ogre would be aware of the second attack after the first. The group brought up that with TWF, both attacks could happen simultaneously so there wouldnt be that inherent delay. This makes logical sense, but again I'm worried about rules that make one feat tree significantly more powerful than another.

This scenario also becomes more complicated when the rogue begins gaining extra iterative attacks.

So basically what I need to know is, how many of an attacker's attacks are eligible for sneak attack damage when the attacker is invisible, but not in a flanking position.

2) Hide in Plain Sight

I have never actually used this mechanic, so I'm a little iffy on my understanding of how it works. My main concern is how it interacts with the "sniping" rules. Can a character with HiPS avoid the -20 penalty to it's Hide check after making at attack? Can that same character move half their speed taking a hide action as well and then be eligible for sneak attack damage against their target (assuming all other requirements are met successful hide vs spot, within 30' using ranged, etc)

3) Balanced Encounter Levels

The group I'm running is a group of 6 players. The module is slated for a group of 4 level 4 characters. To compensate I started all the characters off at level 3. Should I further tweak any of the encounters, or should a group of 6 level 3's be about the same power level as a group of 4 level 4's?

Any opinions from other experienced DM's out there would be greatly appreciated.

Duke of URL
2008-01-28, 10:25 AM
As to question #1, the mechanics are decidedly turn-based, so the rogue maintains all of his advantages until the opponent gets a chance to act.

Keld Denar
2008-01-28, 10:45 AM
1) Attacking from Hiding.

A rogue managed to slip behind some cover and hide at the beginning of a combat. As the two parties (good guys, some ogres) came together, he moved into position (maintaining his hide) and eventually took a full attack action to throw two daggers at one of the ogres from 15" away.

Would both attacks be eligible for sneak attack damage? Because the rogue is hidden, he is considered invisible, and therefore the ogre would be denied its dexterity to it's AC. But, the invisible state is broken when he attacks a creature. My main problem with this was making sure to maintain the balance between Rapid Shot and TWF. In the case of Rapid Shot, there is a distinctive delay between the two attacks, and in theory the ogre would be aware of the second attack after the first. The group brought up that with TWF, both attacks could happen simultaneously so there wouldnt be that inherent delay. This makes logical sense, but again I'm worried about rules that make one feat tree significantly more powerful than another.

This scenario also becomes more complicated when the rogue begins gaining extra iterative attacks.

So basically what I need to know is, how many of an attacker's attacks are eligible for sneak attack damage when the attacker is invisible, but not in a flanking position.

The rogue hasn't entered combat yet, so all foes who fail to spot him are considered flatfooted with respect to the rogue. He maintains his sneak attack status until his foes have a chance to react.


2) Hide in Plain Sight

I have never actually used this mechanic, so I'm a little iffy on my understanding of how it works. My main concern is how it interacts with the "sniping" rules. Can a character with HiPS avoid the -20 penalty to it's Hide check after making at attack? Can that same character move half their speed taking a hide action as well and then be eligible for sneak attack damage against their target (assuming all other requirements are met successful hide vs spot, within 30' using ranged, etc)

HiPS does not change the rules for sniping. The penalty remains. All HiPS does is change the hide cover requirements to whatever the HiPS requirements are (shadows for a shadowdancer, natural terrain for a ranger)


3) Balanced Encounter Levels

The group I'm running is a group of 6 players. The module is slated for a group of 4 level 4 characters. To compensate I started all the characters off at level 3. Should I further tweak any of the encounters, or should a group of 6 level 3's be about the same power level as a group of 4 level 4's?

Any opinions from other experienced DM's out there would be greatly appreciated.

Look in the published module for the Encounter Level(EL). Determine what the party Average Party Level (APL) would normally be for the encounter (4 in your example, (4+4+4+4)/4=4. Then determine what the difference is between the EL and the intended APL (APL+1, APL+2, APL+3, etc). Then figure out the APL of your party (P1+P2+...+Pn)/n and add 1 to that for the 6th player. Determine what the new EL would be by adding the difference previously determined. Modify the encounter in some way to make its difficulty match the new EL. One standard is that a doubling of monsters increases EL by 2, so a 50% increase should bump EL by 1. Altering conditions also changes the EL, such as granting buff time or favorable environment (a fire giant throwing rocks while mostly submersed in lava is more difficult than a fire giant on an open field). Check the DMG for more info.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 10:56 AM
The rogue hasn't entered combat yet, so all foes who fail to spot him are considered flatfooted with respect to the rogue. He maintains his sneak attack status until his foes have a chance to react.


There is no mechanics for becoming flatfooted against some opponents, because they enter combat at a later stage.

It is true that anyone who fail to spot the rogue will be denied Dex to ac and therefore eligible for SA in most cases.

However, this only applies to the first attack that the rogue makes against that target. If the rogue wants to stay hidden the rogue would have to use the rules for sniping.
If the rogue want to make a full attack only the first target will be denied Dex to AC and only on the first attack.

Diarmuid
2008-01-28, 11:12 AM
stupid double post

Diarmuid
2008-01-28, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the quick replies.

lussmanj: That was how we ended up ruling it for the attacking from hidden, but I just was looking for some confirmation on that front.

Silvanos: that was our other idea, but we could not find any rules supporting either stance on that topic.

With regards to the HiPS, I guess I'm still a little confused. Let me give a couple sample scenarios and you can tell me if I'm following properly.

Scenario 1

A = Character with HiPS ability
B = Other Character

Combat area is completely "Shadowy Illumination"

A is hidden when he becomes aware of B, B fails spot check. When B is within 30' of A, A rolls initiative (result 10) and can take a surprise round standard action to attack from hiding, and is eligible for sneak attack damage.

Round 1 begins, initiative is rolled for B (result 15). B begins casting a full round spell. A takes a move action to Hide, and uses a standard action to attack B.

Question: Does this Hide check have any inherent penalties?
Question: Assuming A's Hide is better than B's Spot, is the attack eligible for Sneak Attack?

Scenario 2

A = Character with HiPS ability
B = Other Character

Combat area is completely "Shadowy Illumination"

A and B become aware of each other at the same time. Initiative is rolled A=15, B=10.

Round 1: A uses a move action to ready his weapon, and then Hides moving half his speed to be within 30' of B.
B begins casting a full round spell.

Question: Does this Hide check have any inherent penalties?

Round 2: A attacks from Hiding, and then attempts to Hide again, via the Sniping rules.

Question: Would this attack be eligible for Sneak Attack?
Clarification: This Hide check would incur the standard -20 penalty for Sniping.

----------------------------------------------------------

It seems like it would be much more effective for A to Hide then attack on his turn, rather than Attack then Hide. The only difference being that after attacking A is visible to be attacked, targetted with spells, etc.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 11:32 AM
Silvanos: that was our other idea, but we could not find any rules supporting either stance on that topic.

They are in the rules for initiative and in overview of "how combat works."


Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed.


Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.



With regards to the HiPS, I guess I'm still a little confused. Let me give a couple sample scenarios and you can tell me if I'm following properly.

Scenario 1

A = Character with HiPS ability
B = Other Character

Combat area is completely "Shadowy Illumination"

A is hidden when he becomes aware of B, B fails spot check. When B is within 30' of A, A rolls initiative (result 10) and can take a surprise round standard action to attack from hiding, and is eligible for sneak attack damage.

Round 1 begins, initiative is rolled for B (result 15). B begins casting a full round spell. A takes a move action to Hide, and uses a standard action to attack B.

Question: Does this Hide check have any inherent penalties?
Question: Assuming A's Hide is better than B's Spot, is the attack eligible for Sneak Attack?

No you are not attacking anymore, so you do not take the -20 penalty for hiding.
Yes, a ranged attack would be eligible, but the attacker is visible after the attack.



Scenario 2

A = Character with HiPS ability
B = Other Character

Combat area is completely "Shadowy Illumination"

A and B become aware of each other at the same time. Initiative is rolled A=15, B=10.

Round 1: A uses a move action to ready his weapon, and then Hides moving half his speed to be within 30' of B.
B begins casting a full round spell.

Question: Does this Hide check have any inherent penalties?

No, you are only moving at half speed and is not attacking.


Round 2: A attacks from Hiding, and then attempts to Hide again, via the Sniping rules.

Question: Would this attack be eligible for Sneak Attack?
Clarification: This Hide check would incur the standard -20 penalty for Sniping.


Yes, assuming you observe the rule of being 10 feet away from your target.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-28, 11:32 AM
There is no mechanics for becoming flatfooted against some opponents, because they enter combat at a later stage.

It is true that anyone who fail to spot the rogue will be denied Dex to ac and therefore eligible for SA in most cases.

However, this only applies to the first attack that the rogue makes against that target. If the rogue wants to stay hidden the rogue would have to use the rules for sniping.
If the rogue want to make a full attack only the first target will be denied Dex to AC and only on the first attack.

Wouldn't his entering combat be a surprise round?
But than he would only get 1 attack.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 11:36 AM
Wouldn't his entering combat be a surprise round?
But than he would only get 1 attack.

No, because regular combat has already started. A surprise round only happens at the start of combat (and if someone is unaware).

You do not get surprise rounds in the middle of everything.

Keld Denar
2008-01-28, 11:56 AM
No, because regular combat has already started. A surprise round only happens at the start of combat (and if someone is unaware).

You do not get surprise rounds in the middle of everything.

Oh great floating many eyed one-
I'm AFB, but check the rules in the DMG regarding 3rd parties entering combat mid-melee. The rogue could treat himself as a 3rd party independant of the main party and foes currently engaged in combat.

PS, I killed your hive mother this weekend. Put up quite a fight, be we eventually got it down. Stupid DC36 Flesh to Stone rays.....

Diarmuid
2008-01-28, 12:14 PM
Silvanos, I could find nothing in the Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) seciton discussing that only 1 attack made from "hiding" is made with the benefits of being hidden.

I still cannot find anything stating that only the first attack made from hiding or while invisible gains the benefits of either status. If you know where the official rules for that are, I would very much like to see them.

Lussmanj: The rogue was already involved in the combat and has a regular intiative from the beginning. Hiding during the combat does not take him out of the regular initiative order.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 12:27 PM
Oh great floating many eyed one-
I'm AFB, but check the rules in the DMG regarding 3rd parties entering combat mid-melee. The rogue could treat himself as a 3rd party independant of the main party and foes currently engaged in combat.

That would have the same effect as if he delayed to come first in a new combat round (aware newcomers get to act first in the round.)
However, and most importantly, it does not make anyone flat-footed, because they have already acted on previous rounds.
Furthermore, if you insist on being treated like a 3rd party, despite of the lack of benefits, you are yourself flat-footed should anyone direct an attack at you, since you have not acted in combat. :smallamused:


PS, I killed your hive mother this weekend. Put up quite a fight, be we eventually got it down. Stupid DC36 Flesh to Stone rays.....


Bah, sounds like a weak one to me. I mean DC 36... that is just too easy. :smalltongue:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 12:39 PM
Silvanos, I could find nothing in the Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) seciton discussing that only 1 attack made from "hiding" is made with the benefits of being hidden.

I still cannot find anything stating that only the first attack made from hiding or while invisible gains the benefits of either status. If you know where the official rules for that are, I would very much like to see them.


Ahh no, you won't find that in the combat section.

It follows from the sniping rules, otherwise there would be no need to hide again.

You become visible as soon as you make your first attack, so unless the opponent is flat-footed or for some other reason is denied Dex to AC only the first attack is made while being invisible.

You need Improved Invisibility if you want to stay that way for a full attack.

Keld Denar
2008-01-28, 12:43 PM
That would have the same effect as if he delayed to come first in a new combat round (aware newcomers get to act first in the round.)
However, and most importantly, it does not make anyone flat-footed, because they have already acted on previous rounds.
Furthermore, if you insist on being treated like a 3rd party, despite of the lack of benefits, you are yourself flat-footed should anyone direct an attack at you, since you have not acted in combat. :smallamused:

hmmm, I could have swore I saw something about different people being flatfooted with respect to other people in regards to a 3rd party entering a combat....I wish I had my DMG on me. Maybe it was a 3.0 thing.../fuzzybrain



Bah, sounds like a weak one to me. I mean DC 36... that is just too easy. :smalltongue:

Hardly, level 15 party vs a Shadowed Hive Mother with a pair of Blackguard levels. Eye ray AB of over 30 (touch), DC 36 on all rays, AC just south of 50, all saves in the high 30s, 450ish hp, and a whole bunch of dirty tricks from LoMadness like a lens that splits one of its rays, a feat that allows it to target a single creature with up to 7 eyes, and one that changed its AM center eye ray into a targeted AMF that FOLLOWS THE TARGET. Oh, and the no-save Disjunction Ray...that sucked. One magical effect of choice (usually fly effects, since it was flying above us) gets dispelled. Nasty nasty CR19ish creature. Would maul any Balor or Dragon I can think of.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 12:53 PM
hmmm, I could have swore I saw something about different people being flatfooted with respect to other people in regards to a 3rd party entering a combat....I wish I had my DMG on me. Maybe it was a 3.0 thing.../fuzzybrain

I think what you remember is the 3rd party walking in on the battle and being unaware. (Not sure how blind and deaf you need to be for that to happen)
In that case the third party rolls initiative and acts normally in the combat round and thus are flat-footed until their initiative count comes up.



Hardly, level 15 party vs a Shadowed Hive Mother with a pair of Blackguard levels. Eye ray AB of over 30 (touch), DC 36 on all rays, AC just south of 50, all saves in the high 30s, 450ish hp, and a whole bunch of dirty tricks from LoMadness like a lens that splits one of its rays, a feat that allows it to target a single creature with up to 7 eyes, and one that changed its AM center eye ray into a targeted AMF that FOLLOWS THE TARGET. Oh, and the no-save Disjunction Ray...that sucked. One magical effect of choice (usually fly effects, since it was flying above us) gets dispelled. Nasty nasty CR19ish creature. Would maul any Balor or Dragon I can think of.


Dirty tricks? We call that efficiency. :smallwink:
We all know Balors and dragons are weak. :smallcool:
Sounds like the poor thing did not really benefit from terrain. (I think that is a big part of what makes us great, that and the popcorn monopoly.)

Seriously though, how did you take down the mother?

Keld Denar
2008-01-28, 01:09 PM
Dirty tricks? We call that efficiency. :smallwink:
We all know Balors and dragons are weak. :smallcool:
Sounds like the poor thing did not really benefit from terrain. (I think that is a big part of what makes us great, that and the popcorn monopoly.)

Seriously though, how did you take down the mother?

Terrain wasn't a factor, since the combat took place in a Kuo-Toa temple in an attempt to gain the favor of the Kuo-Toa Grand Abbot so the Kuo-Toa would remain neutral as opposed to joining the forces of Llolth (which the beholder was working for). In true Kuo-Toa fasion, anyone who speaks parlay is entittled to ritual arena combat before the masses. The arena was HUGE, but the ceiling was only 60 feet. I could give you an exact rundown, but I'd rather not threadjack. Make another thread and I can draw out the bloody details. The combat took over 3 hours of real life "sweatdrop on brow" standing, cheering, gasping, and plotting time.

Oh, and I see now about joining in. That is where I must have gotten confused.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 01:40 PM
I could give you an exact rundown, but I'd rather not threadjack. Make another thread and I can draw out the bloody details.

No we cannot have thread-jacking without having Charity involved... so here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70726).

Diarmuid
2008-01-28, 02:05 PM
Silvanos, I posted these same questions to the WotC boards and have basically gotten the exact same two answers, though no one has been able to provide any kind of rules reference that actually supports their claims.

The 2 sides of the argument are as follows:

A) All of the attackers attacks gain the full benefit of any status/conditions in effect because all of the attacks comprise a single action.

B) Only the first attack gets the bonuses.

Unfortunately, no one has been able to make any concrete reference to any kind of official rule to support their arguments fully.

Newtkeeper
2008-01-28, 02:13 PM
It follows from the sniping rules, otherwise there would be no need to hide again..


Umm... maybe you just want to hide so they won't see you? If they don't know where you are, they can't return fire...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 02:23 PM
Silvanos, I posted these same questions to the WotC boards and have basically gotten the exact same two answers, though no one has been able to provide any kind of rules reference that actually supports their claims.

The 2 sides of the argument are as follows:

A) All of the attackers attacks gain the full benefit of any status/conditions in effect because all of the attacks comprise a single action.

B) Only the first attack gets the bonuses.

Unfortunately, no one has been able to make any concrete reference to any kind of official rule to support their arguments fully.

Again, I direct your attention to the rules for sniping.

If you look at the FAQ you will see that the Sage is of the same opinion.

If you wait around a little even the WotC board will come to their senses.:smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 02:25 PM
Umm... maybe you just want to hide so they won't see you? If they don't know where you are, they can't return fire...

Pardon me, I am not sure I follow?

Diarmuid
2008-01-28, 03:04 PM
Silvanos, I understand the rules for sniping...but that's not the scenario I'm trying to represent. The intention is not to attack from hiding and hide again. The intention is to attack from hiding using a full attack action in which you get 2 or more attacks.

The question is how many of those attacks garner the benefit of you attacking from hiding.

Sniping specifically refers to the scenario of making a single attack and then re-hiding. This scenario involves an alpha strike made from hiding or invisibility (not of the greater kind).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 03:11 PM
I can assure you that I understand what you are trying to do. :smallsmile:

The point I tried to make about referencing snipe even for this part of the question is that if you were hidden after making the first attack, there would no need to use the snipe action, since if you were hidden during the second, third, fourth etc. attack why would you not be after making the last attack?

Here is a FAQ entry that deals with the question of becoming visible after making the first attack.


If a rogue gets multiple attacks in a round (such as from
a high base attack bonus or the Rapid Shot feat), can she
make sneak attacks for all of them?

Yes, but only if each attack meets a requirement to be a
sneak attack. For instance, a rogue who flanks an enemy can
deliver a sneak attack with every melee attack she makes. A
rogue under the effect of a greater invisibility spell treats every
attack as a sneak attack, since she remains invisible despite
attacking.
If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement
to be a sneak attack, they aren’t sneak attacks. For example, a
rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak
attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she
turns visible as soon as she makes the attack.


... Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after
attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her
(even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The
sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a
character to make a move action to hide immediately after
making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but
this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with
reach).
...

Diarmuid
2008-01-28, 11:17 PM
Well, one of the bigger benefits of hiding after an attack is not being visible for your target and/or his friends to attack you as well.

But thanks for the FAQ links, that's exactly what I was looking for.