Dervish + Tempest +?

[TGWG]

help me fill in the gap. I'm trying to create a group of NPCs with simular fighting styles but done in different ways. The theme is "mobile striker with more attacks then the opponent has hit dice."

I'm also trying to decide which base class and base race they should be. Also what weapons they should use.

I'm thinking Elf fighter for the dervish and half-orc ranger for tempest

kukri IMO is the best light weapon but tell me if I'm wrong

[Yeril]

for the Kurki thing it realy depends on what you want, Eg. for a dervish, I'd say the scimitar is the best light weapeon.

and the half orc, well sure the 18-20 crit range looks good, but say compared to a shortsword, but whats better? an extra 1d4+2 damage 5% of the time, or an extra 1 damage on every attack.

[Penguinizer]

what about elven-lightblade wielding insectile-thrikreen. using the shadowblade feat for dex bonus to damage as well as str bonus. that'd need one feat for a shadowblade stance though.

Improved critical, and beyond that, no idea.

[RTGoodman]

Well a really basic one would be something like Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3, and then into Dervish/Tempest. Or maybe Rogue/Swashbuckler with that Daring Outlaw feat (or whatever it's called - the one that makes Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for various things).

[Darrin]

I'm thinking Elf fighter for the dervish and half-orc ranger for tempest


Neither is particularly optimal. If you want to move+full attack, just take the Travel Devotion feat (Complete Champion) at 1st/3rd (for TWF) or 6th (for iterative attacks).

Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 1 is goint to be a much more potent TWF build than anything you can do with Dervish or Tempest. If you want to get rid of TWF penalties, Bloodclaw Master (ToB) can do that a couple levels before Tempest.

[Frosty]

Scout + Dervish could work.

[Talya]

Scout + Dervish could work.

Yeah, scout+dervish is one of those combinations that a lot of DMs just don't allow, too.

[TGWG]

and the half orc, well sure the 18-20 crit range looks good, but say compared to a shortsword, but whats better? an extra 1d4+2 damage 5% of the time, or an extra 1 damage on every attack.

The Kukri's better if you're two weilding it, have a high strength score, and improved critical.

shortsword, 20STR,

1d6+5, 20% of the time 2d6 +10

Kukri, 20STR,

1d4 +5, 30% of the time 2d6 +10

[Talya]

The Kukri's better if you're two weilding it, have a high strength score, and improved critical.

shortsword, 20STR,

1d6+5, 20% of the time 2d6 +10

Kukri, 20STR,

1d4 +5, 30% of the time 2d6 +10

Strength is suboptimal as a source of bonus damage when dual weilding, as it only applies 1/2 (round down) in your off-hand.

However, some (not all) precision damage is multiplied on a critical, which is why 3 levels of swashbuckler are nice for a dervish, as are two levels in something like Champion of Corellon Larethian, etc. However, if you're stacking up Skirmish damage from Scout, the crit threat range is less important to you (though still nice.)

[playswithfire]

The Kukri's better if you're two weilding it, have a high strength score, and improved critical.


not to be a math nerd, but I am, so here goes
Average damages:
shortsword, primary
.8*(3.5+STR+bonus)+.2*(7+2*STR+2*bonus)
=4.2+1.2*STR+1.2*bonus
shortsword, secondary
.8*(3.5+.5*STR+bonus)+.2*(7+STR+2*bonus)
=4.2+.6*STR+1.2*bonus

kukri, primary
.7*(2.5+STR+bonus)+.3*(5+2*STR+2*bonus)
=3.25+1.3*STR+1.3*bonus
kukri, secondary
.7*(2.5+.5*STR+bonus)+.3*(5+STR+2*bonus)
=3.25+.65*STR+1.3*bonus

So, on average, hitting with both shortswords does
8.4+1.8STR+2.4 bonus
with kukris
6.5+1.95STR+2.6*bonus
so kukris are better when
.15*STR+.2*bonus>1.9
where bonus includes weapon enhancements and any other source of bonus damage, like Shadow Blade, Insightful Strike, whatever

obviously, kukris also help if you have anything that benefits from criticals, e.g. blood in the water stance

[Zincorium]

For pure weapon ability, the kusari-gama is probably the best TWF weapon available in the core books, however, the common dagger has truckloads of synergy available, is a piercing and slashing (hi-ho dervish!) weapon, can be thrown (adding in a swashbuckler's insightful strike if you have it), and is extremely common as far as magic items, it's one of those that like longswords pops into DMs minds more easily than, say, a guiarsme.

[playswithfire]

For pure weapon ability, the kusari-gama is probably the best TWF weapon available in the core books, however, the common dagger has truckloads of synergy available, is a piercing and slashing (hi-ho dervish!) weapon, can be thrown (adding in a swashbuckler's insightful strike if you have it), and is extremely common as far as magic items, it's one of those that like longswords pops into DMs minds more easily than, say, a guiarsme.

And is the only weapon besides unarmed strike that can benefit from both the shadow blade feat and the superior two weapon fighting provided by Bloodclaw Master

[wadledo]

Actually, what about TWF + Whirling Frenzy barbarian?
That gives you 3 attacks at first level, and it just gets better from there.

[Frosty]

Yeah, scout+dervish is one of those combinations that a lot of DMs just don't allow, too.

Why not? It's not that powerful. It has less damage potential than Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter, and you're putting yourself in more danger with a melee build.

If you really want to do max melee skirmish, You'd dip one barbarian level (for pounce) and 2 fighter levels.

[TGWG]

For pure weapon ability, the kusari-gama is probably the best TWF weapon available in the core books, however, the common dagger has truckloads of synergy available, is a piercing and slashing (hi-ho dervish!) weapon, can be thrown (adding in a swashbuckler's insightful strike if you have it), and is extremely common as far as magic items, it's one of those that like longswords pops into DMs minds more easily than, say, a guiarsme.

I can't seem to find the kusari-gama in core, what book can I find it in specifically.


what about elven-lightblade wielding insectile-thrikreen. using the shadowblade feat for dex bonus to damage as well as str bonus. that'd need one feat for a shadowblade stance though.

again what book can I find this.


I'm going to restate my question, now. My failure to master the enghish language seems to have impared my meaning, I'm sorry. I'm Planing a 3 NPC mercenary group. They all have simular battle styles, but done in different ways. The theme is "a hurricane of whirling blades." It must be a group of 3 because the law of dynamic numbers demands it. I've got a Tempest based around Rapid Blitz(PH2), a TWF Dervish and ?. All are still in the planing phases.

at the moment

3 decent races are Elf, Half-orc, and Human
3 decent base classes are Ranger, Fighter, Scout varient
good weapons at the moment, kukri, scimitar, and dagger

and that's all I have.

[Frosty]

Kusari can be found in the DMG I think. Elven Thinblade can be found in Races of the Wild.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Tempest is a surprisingly poor PrC unless you're writing up a Dr***t clone. Even then, it's pretty sub-par. Effectively, it gives you up to a +2 on your to-hit when duo-wielding, up to a +3 untyped bonus to AC, and it lets you apply things like Improved Critical to both weapons if they are different.

In short... pretty sub-par.

May I direct you to Tome of Battle, the Book of Nine Swords?

The PrC Bloodclaw Master does several good things for a duo-wielding frenzy build:

1) at first level, you get to apply ALL strength bonuses to both weapons. This is VERY good with a high strength type guy.

2) At 2nd level, he negates the penalty for duo-wielding. Kinda like the Tempest, only now you're also doing more damage too.

3) You get a Str bonus, similar to rage but without the penalties, then later on you get a Boost which gives you an extra 2d6 when you land a hit with both weapons. Yeouch.

So you're looking at something like Warblade/Bloodclaw Master. Mind you, there's a maneuver (not sure how far in) that lets you make a full attack on a charge if you make a Jump check equal to your opponent's AC. Have a nice day.

[sonofzeal]

Here's a build I came up with recently

Rogue3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Master Thrower 5.

Important Feats: TWF, Rapid Shot, Daring Outlaw

Throwing Tricks: Palm Throw, Sneaky Shot, Weak Spot

Important magic: Splitting enchantment on your daggers.



Result: at lvl11, you should be putting out something around 16 daggers a turn, all of which can have +3d6 sneak on them with a Sleight of Hand check (or more, with the right gear), and all get +Int to damage. What's even better is, not only are you denying Dex-to-AC, you're also resolving them as Touch Attacks via Weak Spot at the same time. As long as your Sleight of Hand is high, you should virtually never miss (even with the -4 from TWF and Rapid Shot), and each dagger should be doing scary damage. Oh, and you have Daring Outlaw, so your future progression looks good too.

[zerombr]

i set up a PT member in my party (who's a bit less knowledgable) with this
1-11 Rogue
12-15 Dervish
16-18 Scout (buying the Scout/Rogue crossover feat)
19-20 Whatever

He has Improved Two Weapon Fighting, with scimitars, and also Acrobatic Backstab trick so he can Dervish Dance through a space, and get sneak attack damage, it's pretty heinous

[nargbop]

I recently played a dervish starting at lvl 20. I was optimized for AC. lessee... 6 Fighter / 10 Dervish / 4 Tempest was the original idea.
THEN I discovered Improved Combat Expertise which lets you trade off all your BaB for extra AC. I waved goodbye to three levels of Tempest and took Exemplar instead to get needed skill points. Tempest is OK for a dip but isn't really an interesting class.
Problem : you still have to always act first in order to get your blades out. Take Improved Initiative and items that improve init, and have a friend with nerveskitter around at all times.

A better build is Scout 10 / Dervish 10 for seriously awesome damage all the time. Your DM will probably say "NO" or houserule "Skirmish only counts on the first hit, you munchkin". There are several feats to take which improve you around your Dex modifier - check out this for the good stuff.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889

Someone suggested above to only take 5 levels of dervish. What? Thousand blades is the most powerful fighter-type ability in the game. It's not as good as the Fatespinner's power, but it's WIN with a capital WIN.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's a build I came up with recently

Rogue3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Master Thrower 5.

Important Feats: TWF, Rapid Shot, Daring Outlaw

Throwing Tricks: Palm Throw, Sneaky Shot, Weak Spot

Important magic: Splitting enchantment on your daggers.



Result: at lvl11, you should be putting out something around 16 daggers a turn, all of which can have +3d6 sneak on them with a Sleight of Hand check (or more, with the right gear), and all get +Int to damage. What's even better is, not only are you denying Dex-to-AC, you're also resolving them as Touch Attacks via Weak Spot at the same time. As long as your Sleight of Hand is high, you should virtually never miss (even with the -4 from TWF and Rapid Shot), and each dagger should be doing scary damage. Oh, and you have Daring Outlaw, so your future progression looks good too.

Got ya one beat... the Gatling Shuriken Guy!

Rogue11/Monk1/Exotic Weapon Master 3/Master Thrower 5.

You see... shuriken are exotic weapons, so get:

Close-Quarters Ranged Combat - eliminate AoO due to using ranged weapon in melee
Stunning Blow - Because a 1st level Monk can get Stunning Fist... and it never says you can't do it with a ranged weapon. Sure, the DC is probably pretty lousy, but all these attempts... ya gotta roll a nat 1 eventually...
Ranged Disarm - for same reason as above... sure, you're gonna suck for your disarm roll, but he has to roll a 1 eventually...

Then for Master Thrower:

Palm Throw - double your pleasure, double your fun... double your shots
Sneaky Shot - because +6d6 sneak attack damage per shot is fun
Weak Shot - Because ranged touch attacks are always fun, and you're not applying Strength modifiers due to Palm Throw anyways

So, BAB of 16 means base 4 attacks. Add one from Rapid Shot, and one from Flurry (Shuriken are monk weapons) for a total of 6 attacks, doubled from Palm Shot is 12 attacks.

Sure, not quite as many attacks as yours, but 12 * 6d6 Sneak Attack all at touch attacks... not too shabby, eh?