What is Vancian Casting?

[Zeful]

Having read a lot about 4E and 3.xE I keep hearing about the demise of Vancian casting, right along side claims that casting is becoming more Vancian. Who's right? What exactly is the magic system Jack Vance described in his books?

[Rutee]

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28gaming%29).

"* Memorization — The game character must memorize a fixed number of spells from the list of all spells the character knows. This memorization can only occur once in a specified time period, usually a day, or it may require the character to rest for several hours. This system is sometimes called "Vancian" in the game designer community, since its first use, in Dungeons & Dragons, was inspired by the way magic works in Jack Vance's Dying Earth world."

[Dead_Weasel]

Wikipedia has little to say (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Vance#Influence_on_Dungeons_.26_Dragons). Never having read any of Vance's writing, I cannot claim to know which camp is "right"; I expect that the difference in opinion is a result of different interpretations and/or magical systems from within his work.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Saph]

Having read a lot about 4E and 3.xE I keep hearing about the demise of Vancian casting, right along side claims that casting is becoming more Vancian. Who's right?

The first group are right; the second group are wrong. WotC have explicitly said that they're largely getting rid of Vancian casting in 4E.


What exactly is the magic system Jack Vance described in his books?

The same way Wizards use spells in 3.5 D&D, basically. Memorise, cast, re-memorise.

The way it's described in Jack Vance's stories is that much of magical study is actually memory training, and trying to use spells would drive a normal person insane. In his Dying Earth stories, even quite powerful wizards can only memorise half a dozen or so spells at once, but each one is very powerful (the original Prismatic Spray, called the Excellent Prismatic Spray, is described as being pretty much invariably lethal).

- Saph

[LibraryOgre]

It's worth it to read Jack Vance's Dying Earth books. The last, Rhialto the Marvellous, deals explicitly with what D&D would consider very high level wizards... time-traveling, time-stopping, wizards, with clouds of Ioun stones following them.

Like most D&D fiction, while Vancian casting ostensibly means memorizing each spell individually, the powerful wizards in that book aren't seen to do that; it's the province of the lesser wizards and dabblers.

[Yami]

So the hieght of vancian casting is the sorcerer? Heh, I like it!

[Burley]

So the hieght of vancian casting is the sorcerer? Heh, I like it!

Which explains the animosity thrown at sorcerers by wizards. In D&D, at least, the wizards have to study their *lesser orbs* off, and the sorcerers are pickin' up chicks. (Or pickin' up dudes...that's perfectly acceptable.)
And, even if the sorcerers are more like extremely high level wizards who have already payed their dues, there is always a bit of resentment towards people who don't need to work as hard as you, but still reap the benefits. Like your boss...I hate your boss.

What do we learn from this? Wizards are bookworms who need to study for at least an hour a day to be ready for anything that may happen, and they are bitter. Sometimes. I mean, they aren't ALWAYS bitter. There was that one cool wizard: Conan the Barbarian the Wizard.

4ed is just trying to do away with the studying that wizards need to do to get by, thereby decreasing any resentment wizards may hold against another class. 4ed is trying to bring about peace, prosperity, and Mordenkainen's conjunction to all races and classes, regardless of race and class. :biggrin:

[Indon]

While it doesn't bear much resembalance to the casting in Vance's novels (Zelazny's later Amber novels had the system almost as it appeared in AD&D, though, the couple times it was relevant), most people associate Vancian casting with spells, memorized into and/or cast from slots spanning 9 levels of power.

[Closet_Skeleton]

most people associate Vancian casting with spells, memorized into and/or cast from slots spanning 9 levels of power.

The 9 levels isn't important. It's memorising spells in slots and not being able to use them after casting them. D&D has of yet always used Vancian casting and 9 levels have only been standard for your Magic User/Mage/Wizard, Clerics where vancian but had 7 levels and Bards and Paladins slightly more confusing.

[Iku Rex]

The same way Wizards use spells in 3.5 D&D, basically. Memorise, cast, re-memorise. Technically not true. In 3rd edition wizards prepare spells.

I think of it as the same as the magic system in Zelazny's Amber books. A spell can't be cast on the fly, so the magician prepares it in advance, storing the almost-completed spell in his mind. When it's needed the caster completes the complex ritual with a few words and gestures and the magic takes effect.

[Person_Man]

In a more meta sense, Vancian Casting often requires that DM's include a number of encounters per game day in order to balance out the full casters in the game.

I've dug into the math a couple different times, and have found that an ECL 1-5 full caster tends to run out of spells that are useful for CR appropriate encounters after about 4-6 rounds of casting, and after that they're pretty much done. An ECL 6-12 full caster tends to run out of spells that are useful for CR appropriate encounters after about 6-12 rounds of casting, and after that they have to rely on magic items. An ECL 13ish+ full caster with appropriate WBL items basically never runs out of useful things to do, unless the DM specifically sets up a marathon game day, anti-magic fields, level or spell draining, etc.

This has always lead to weird balance issues. In my experience it really doesn't cause that many issues with an experienced DM with a mature group. But for newer players, its often a struggle. They've promised to address it in 4th ed. So we'll see what happens.

[TempusCCK]

As a huge fan of Zelazny's work I'm always noticed the comparison to the "Hanging" of spells to the preparation of the D&D Wizard. Many of Zelazny's other books use a similar system of "cast the spell without a few of the somatic and verbal components and then complete it when needed, expending it's use until prepared again."

Having read a lengthy description of the "Vancian" magic system from our good GitP'er Mark Hall, I felt the description was something of a misnomer. I think "Zelaznian" would be much more fitting, especially considering some of the passages to describe spellcasting in the PHB.

[Talya]

This has always lead to weird balance issues. In my experience it really doesn't cause that many issues with an experienced DM with a mature group. But for newer players, its often a struggle. They've promised to address it in 4th ed. So we'll see what happens.


This is the truth about so many "balance issues" in 3.x.

[Mock26]

Prepared. Memorized.

tə-'mā-(')tō. tə-'mä-(')tō.

[AKA_Bait]

It's worth it to read Jack Vance's Dying Earth books. The last, Rhialto the Marvellous, deals explicitly with what D&D would consider very high level wizards... time-traveling, time-stopping, wizards, with clouds of Ioun stones following them.

Like most D&D fiction, while Vancian casting ostensibly means memorizing each spell individually, the powerful wizards in that book aren't seen to do that; it's the province of the lesser wizards and dabblers.

I will chime in to agree with Mr. Nexx and others. The system as it is used is more similar to Zelazney's style of magic and is something of a misnomer. However, the Dying Earth Books are a worthwile read. I speak as someone currently reading them for the first time.

[Dhavaer]

Prepared. Memorized.

tə-'mā-(')tō. tə-'mä-(')tō.

Using 'memorised' does tend to lead to the 'wizard-with-Alzheimers', though.

[Newtkeeper]

Using 'memorised' does tend to lead to the 'wizard-with-Alzheimers', though.

I've always assumed that casting a spell simply released enough magical energy that it knocked the memory clean out of the wizard's head. I have not yet considered the long-term side effects.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

But...doesn't Int get higher as he gets older?:smallconfused:

[Khanderas]

The alzheimers bit is an exaggeration done by people who feel that it is stupid to cast a spell and then forget what he did.
(like Fizban... how did that spell go?)

My stand, shared by many others (or so I believe), is that the Wizard very much still remembers the words and gestures, but the actual power is spent.
(if it was just the words and gestures, anyone could atleast try to cast spells, with varying chances of success). After resting, the mind is ready for the preparation phase again, when the wizard repowers the spells in his or her mind.


Now all this may be a moot point, with the new /day /encounter or /whatever spells that seems to be coming with 4th edition.

[Rutee]

I don't think the effort will be wasted, since you should be able to import any fluff you come up with into 4th ed. You'll just have fewer spells that are wiped from memory.

Well, you can import fluff if the DM says no, which might happen more often, with the default fluff changing.