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Danin
2008-01-29, 12:59 AM
So, I'll make a long story short. After reading the post about soloing the Tomb on these very fourms, my DM has prompted me to attempt this. I've also decided to do it with a factotem to solve a different prior debate with my DM. Now, although I have almost no prior knowledge about the dungeon I do know a few things:

-The final boss is something big, scary and undead. I'm guessing a lich or a vampire caster. Knowing my luck it will be some fiendish halfdragon ogre vampire lich. Still, never the less I'll have to plan to take him out somehow.

- Theres 3 enterences: All three will kill me, but only one will allow me a shot at winning.

- Lots of traps and arbitrary ways of getting killed. Paranoia is the only way I'm going to survive.

- Its mostly traps and the like, few monsters. That means I only have to find a way around the mosters or sneak past. Fighting doesnt seem like the best option.

- I'll be level 11, 2 levels higher than normal. That helps in terms of nearly unbeatable saves, right?

- Based off the picture in Dungeonscape, I probably shouldn't put my hand in the deamon's mouth.


So yeah, thats pretty much the gist of it. Any advice you could give me (without spoilers) in an attempt to make this remotely doable? Right now I have a few ideas but I'd welcome the input.

Ooh! And before I forgett, nothing TOO cheezy (Font of Insparation is allowed, but I'd prefer not to spend every feat on it... just most) but the books I have available are:

PHB, DMG, MM1 - 5, CA, CW, CD, CAdV, DS, ToM, LM, HoH, HoB, SW, FB, FF2, PLHB (Planar Handbook, didn't know the abreviation), Dragonomicon, RotW, ECS, BoED, MHB, MIC, SC, PHB2, RC, BoVD and probably a few I'm forgetting. I do have access to a few other books (CM and ToB to name a few) but I'd have to borrow those.

And yes, I'm set on playing a Factotem.

graymachine
2008-01-29, 01:40 AM
You will need to keep in mind that there is no rhyme or reason to the traps. Sometimes they make easy sense, simple to solve. Other times, there is you way you to anticipate the solution. And most of them are a mix in between, with layers. There are a fair number of traps that you don't get to make checks for; you simply have to solve them.

That said, I would point out that, to wit, there is only one (real) entrance. I think that you are getting some bad info that is mistaking the misleading paths within the dungeon as "entrances." The best advice I could give would be to have your wits keened, be paranoid beyond all reason, and have several back-up plans in case of death.

UglyPanda
2008-01-29, 07:50 AM
You do not want to solo this thing unless you've played through it already.

-Acererak is not big at all. He was/is of human size. His current state is unknown to PCs.

-You're right that only one is the right entrance, but none give any clue of being the right one.

-There are a bunch of puzzles and a few tasks that require you to do absolutely stupid stuff to progress, so some monster fights are completely unavoidable as a result.

-Still not enough, you will no doubt get hit by something funny rather than dangerous, then something harmful, then you'll roll a one and have to start over.

-Just don't try to tunnel through.

Also, a lot of enemies have been restated to match what they were in the original. Metagame knowledge will fail you in this regard.

Iku Rex
2008-01-29, 08:40 AM
Never played or DMed it, but my suggestions would be:

1. Take 20 on everything wherever possible.
2. Get a bag of tricks, amulet of vermin (MIC) or similar, and use it to spring traps. Add the chain of eyes spell to see what happens to your hapless minions.
3. Use divination spells to scout ahead.
4. Move through the dungeon with fly or maybe gaseous form to avoid some traps. Add invisibility to avoid monster encounters (until you are ready for them).
5. Ask your DM if you can make immediate actions out of combat. If you can, lesser celerity (PHBII) will allow you move away from a trap before it hits you. Or, if he insists on rolling initiative first, see if you can convince him to give traps initiative modifiers and then crank up your own to become almost unbeatable.

What kind of overall cheese level will your DM accept?

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-29, 09:04 AM
PHB, DMG, MM1 - 5, CA, CW, CD, CAdV, DS, ToM, LM, HoH, HoB, SW, FB, FF2, PLHB (Planar Handbook, didn't know the abreviation), Dragonomicon, RotW, ECS, BoED, MHB, MIC, SC, PHB2, RC, BoVD and probably a few I'm forgetting. I do have access to a few other books (CM and ToB to name a few) but I'd have to borrow those.

An impressive list of books, however, you are missing the most important one (in my opinion). You will need Complete Scoundrel to survive soloing the Tomb. You will get trapped, you will screw up, luck feats are your friend. Also, augury is your friend, it is a 1st level spell and at CL10 its 90% accurate. A lot of the "puzzles" are based on luck and messing it up will screw you over in the least or just kill you. Augury will help you figure out puzzles to some extent, it depends on how nice you're DM is and his interpretation about Woe. There are some shady consequences that, in and of themselves are not too bad, but because it happened you're screwed.

Penguinizer
2008-01-29, 09:12 AM
Get the book and read it first.

That should help.

nonsens
2008-01-29, 10:45 AM
The module in 3.5 is downloadeble from the wizard site, though you said no spoilers. So I won't post the link.

As for tips, get something that can:
can dispel magic at will
detect magic at will
fly (or something else that involves not touching anything) at will (or very long duration)
and a 20 ft. pole

and a final tip: (spoilered for a reason)
DO NOT GO ETHEREAL, IT WILL KILL YOU

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-29, 10:53 AM
Take Leadership. Get a Druid buddy. Give him money for Reincarnate. Cut off your right ring finger. Give it to him. Repeat as necessary. :smalltongue:

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-29, 11:27 AM
Take Leadership. Get a Druid buddy. Give him money for Reincarnate. Cut off your right ring finger. Give it to him. Repeat as necessary. :smalltongue:

Probably the best way to "survive" the Tomb.

Danin
2008-01-29, 11:59 AM
Ooh, whow, I can't believe I forgott to mention Complete Scoundle and Complete Champion. I have both of those too. And yes, it is a fairly impressive list of books, thats why I'm not perticularly looking forwards to 4th ed. Still, thats a topic for another day.

As to the level of cheeze? Well, Font of Insparation is allowed, Candle of invocation? Probably not. Acid neutralizer? Absolutely. A certin DC25 Knowledge religion check? No. Just no. Drowing myself to heal? Not going to fly, same with walking around while dead. Augary? Yup. I think you're getting the picture.

Unfortunately leadership is not an option. The goal is to solo this. Other wise I would be using my leadership monster (level 11, 350 first level followers, 50 second level, 12(?) third level, 2 4th, 2 5th, 2 6th and a 10th level cohort. All fearless.)

The following things were on the list of things that might delay my complete and arbitrary death:

Acid Neutralizer
Something that lets me fly / hover
Dispel magic at will
Detect magic at will
20 foot poles are a must
Bag of tricks
Invisibility
Something to protect against divinitations. I'd like to get the jump on that Acererak if at all possible
Something that allows me to sneak attack undead
Something to let me walk through walls. (Either go etheral or some earth one that allows you to pass through rock)

I should also note, I'm generally pretty lucky. Not my characters, but me in general. I roll horrible until it becomes absolutely critical that I need a 20, and it happens. The same thing happens with guessing things, so I'm leaving it up to fate to guess the right path in... I'm dead, arn't I...

Worira
2008-01-29, 12:31 PM
Take 20 on a search check of every single square.

wowy319
2008-01-29, 02:42 PM
Uh-uh. NO WAY do you want to go ethereal in that arbitrary madhouse. You get swarmed by demons like, every round you stay on the ethereal plane.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-29, 02:50 PM
Unfortunately leadership is not an option. The goal is to solo this. Other wise I would be using my leadership monster (level 11, 350 first level followers, 50 second level, 12(?) third level, 2 4th, 2 5th, 2 6th and a 10th level cohort. All fearless.)

Ok then..

Pay a Druid from Place X to go to Area Y. Follow my previously outlined plan.

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-29, 04:09 PM
Uh-uh. NO WAY do you want to go ethereal in that arbitrary madhouse. You get swarmed by demons like, every round you stay on the ethereal plane.

Awww...that's my favorite part of the Tomb :smallfrown:

Player: "Oh crap what now? This puzzle is impossible and will probably get us killed! Screw this, Ethereal Jaunt"
DM: "....." *looks at entry* "..." *looks at player* "...ok..." *rolls* "..Demons attack, they get a surprise round..." *pause* "..why don't you just make another character? It'll be faster that way."

Ganurath
2008-01-29, 04:18 PM
Warlock with...
Baleful Utterance: Like you said, lots of traps. Most traps are objects.
Fell Flight: Most traps also involve touching something.
The Dead Walk: When in doubt, pull a dead dog out of your Bag of Holding and have it scout ahead. Great distraction in a fight, too.
Voracious Dispelling: If the traps doesn't involve touching you and isn't an object, there's magic. Plus, liches tend to be spellcasters, which makes countermagic nice to have.

Danin
2008-01-29, 05:24 PM
For future reference, please spoiler things like deamons attacking when you go Ethereal, i'd like to go in with as little meta game knowledge as possible please. Thanks :smalltongue:

A highered druid with reincarnate would probably be a good idea. I'll definately look into that one.

And yes, I will be taking 20 on a lot of search checks.

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-29, 05:47 PM
For future reference, please spoiler things like deamons attacking when you go Ethereal, i'd like to go in with as little meta game knowledge as possible please. Thanks :smalltongue:

Sorry about that, but that is one thing that is there only to help the DM say "no, you can't bypass the whole adventure." I feel that the players should be warned beforehand unless that is against the spirit of the game. It would have been much better to say "X magic effect causes ethereal creatures from going through walls, etc." but it is something that is great for sadistic DMs to punish players for creativity.

Danin
2008-01-29, 05:50 PM
Well, I suppose if it's just there to say "Hey, you're not just walking through this" it's not so bad that I know that. Still, I could imagine trying to get out of that one...

UglyPanda
2008-01-29, 06:48 PM
X magic prevents you from doing X is like admitting that the DM didn't realize what the player would do. Getting slammed for it and having the recourse written down in ink sends a message to the player, "You cannot win". That shocking experience also keeps the player from trying any more clever ideas for fear of demons.

Also, some puzzles will require you to do things that are completely arbitrary. Don't generalize what your character is doing, state it plainly. Don't say, "I use a skeleton key". You have to say, "I turn the skeleton key clockwise. If it doesn't turn clockwise, I turn it counterclockwise. If the key doesn't do anything when I turn it clockwise, I....etc."

Also, you can't get the jump on Acererak. There is a sequel.

Dullyanna
2008-01-29, 08:06 PM
I think Ganurath's got the right idea (Although Factoti are a great choice if you can't/won't use warlocks). Warlocks are (in)famous for outlasting over outblasting, and excel at guerilla warfare. Just go for as wide a variety of invocations as possible... except for Flee the Scene, as many DMs won't allow that (Especially for the Tomb of Horrors). Oh, and always take your time outside of combat, since your invocations will basically last for as long as you let them.

Edit:I managed to miss the fact that you're set on being a Factotum. That's still a very good idea, except that you shouldn't pump too many feats into FoI. I don't know what saves you'll have to make, but for once you might want to take one of the save-boosting feats. Don't rely on lucky rolls pulling you through, unless you're one of those players who can roll 20's on command. Caution (To the point of paranoia), patience, and 12 ft poles will go a long way, although not necessarily to the end.

Danin
2008-01-29, 09:48 PM
You can't get the jump on him? Thats no good.... My plan at present was to try and take him down in one go. Haste and invisible with the spell from SC that allows you to sneak attack undead. Move to him, stab him and blow a bunch of points on Sneak Attack and use the haste attack to smash a necklace of fireballs. From there? Pray. I figure any really old guy can't have a great reflex save and if he has spell resistance he'd fail at least once or twice. As to me? Hope I pass a lot of saves and have something that gives me fire resistance.

Ooh well, there goes that plan.

Ooh, thanks for the heads up about not being general when I discribe my actions, going to have to remember that one.

Please excuse the lack of coherency in advance, I'm quite ill. I tried to proof read as much as I could though.

FlyMolo
2008-01-29, 10:39 PM
The point of the tomb of horrors is that it's been there forever. People have tried. People have died. The tomb is still there. And in order to kill the BBEG, you have to get to him. Beating him is hard, but getting there is still harder.

Also, warlocks win A ToH. Spider climb, shatter, and dispel magic at will.

Deth Muncher
2008-01-30, 12:21 AM
I don't suppose you could Gestalt this, could you? Rogue//Warlock sounds delicious here: Why yes, I have Trap Sense, and can Shatter/Detect Magic/Spiderclimb at will!

Danin
2008-01-30, 12:43 AM
Gestalt might work, but I think that kinda defeats the point... well, a little at least.

mroozee
2008-01-30, 01:24 AM
Tomb of Horrors (the AD&D version) changed my playing style.

A few things I now do in every dungeon crawl...

1) Map everything and memorize the map
2) A dungeon is not a museum... if something is not useful to you, destroy it
3) Always make note of good hiding/resting places (or bring along a Rope Trick)
4) If you are challenged by something you don't recognize or understand, it's ok to step back and think
5) The LAST option you should take is the one that limits your immediate exit... exhaust ALL other possibilities first
6) Be careful about carrying around extra junk (including unidentified magic you find)... there is almost always time to come back after you have cleared out the module

Premier
2008-01-30, 03:56 AM
You can't get the jump on him? Thats no good.... My plan at present was to try and take him down in one go. Haste and invisible with the spell from SC that allows you to sneak attack undead. Move to him, stab him and blow a bunch of points on Sneak Attack and use the haste attack to smash a necklace of fireballs. From there? Pray. I figure any really old guy can't have a great reflex save and if he has spell resistance he'd fail at least once or twice. As to me? Hope I pass a lot of saves and have something that gives me fire resistance.

Ooh well, there goes that plan.

Well, it's still an interesting plan. If you do go ahead with it, please tell us how it went... :smallbiggrin:

Renx
2008-01-30, 04:44 AM
Wand of Disintegration. No more walls. 'nuff said.

SKarious
2008-01-30, 04:52 AM
Again, be paranoid. Don't expect any solution to work twice.
And if something seems too easy to be true, it usually isn't true.

Danin
2008-01-30, 11:30 AM
Well, it's still an interesting plan. If you do go ahead with it, please tell us how it went... :smallbiggrin:

Believe me, I fully intend on doing a through write up on this little endevor and if I manage to make it to whats his face and try that trick I'll be sure to go into detail about my firey apocolyptic demise. :smallbiggrin:

This thread has been a help guys (Though I think a wand of disintigration is out of the question.

If I got a lyre of building, could I tunnel through the rock? Or will more arbitrary deamons eat me?

Adumbration
2008-01-30, 11:35 AM
Seriously, you should either have means of resurrection or multiple back-up characters. Unless you're careful beyond paranoia, you'll be dead pretty soon. Either from one of the insanely overpowered monsters or a save-or-die trap. The monsters are few, but the traps are everywhere.

Tengu
2008-01-30, 01:54 PM
I feel that the players should be warned beforehand unless that is against the spirit of the game.

I think helping the players in any way is against the spirit of a game where ToH is involved.

Citizen Joe
2008-01-30, 02:19 PM
level 13 psionic Egoist with Fission.

Split off part of yourself and he 'tests' an option. If he dies, you get a negative level, which you cure with a restoration and you know not to do whatever he did. If he gets through, you can recall him from anywhere.

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-30, 02:30 PM
I think helping the players in any way is against the spirit of a game where ToH is involved.

Probably, considering this comment in the last line of the description of area 10A: While cruel, it is most entertaining for the DM. . . . especially since it is commenting on the most evil and nasty non-death effect in the Tomb (in my opinion).

Atelm
2008-01-30, 02:50 PM
You should have either Fly or Overland Flight cast on you before entering, and the ability to cast either yourself, you do not wish to touch the floor, walls, or ceiling of that place.

Newtkeeper
2008-01-30, 03:35 PM
In ascending order of preference:

Be CoDzilla
Have a whole bunch of hirelings.
Be CoDzilla *and* have a whole bunch of hirelings.
Be capable of ethereal travel
Die, and come back as a ghost- end condition: defeat the tomb.
Nuke it from orbit- seriously, that place doesn't deserve anything less
Death Star- same reasoning.

and, finally:

Play a certain first-level Kobold.

Toliudar
2008-01-30, 04:14 PM
The factotum is a good choice. Given the absolutely lethal nature of the module, I wouldn't feel too bad about maxing your Fonts of Inspiration.

Many of these elements have been covered elsewhere, but:

* Skip reincarnation/raise dead/etc. Just talk to your DM about allowing you to hit the reset button after you die, and to start the character again. Other options will start you without your gear, and a level lower. Your chances of this going well will be?
* An ongoing ability to fly will be useful.
* Set your own pace, resting frequently and thinking about stuff.
* The proverbial sack of puppies is a great tool - small (well, preferably big, if you can manage it) creatures that can do your scouting ahead for you, while you float behind and wince when one gets smucked.
* I'd mentally prepare myself for the idea that just GETTING to the final encounter constitutes success. Winning it...the likelihood seems so slim to me that I wouldn't put much emotional investment in it.

Can't wait to hear how it goes!

UglyPanda
2008-01-30, 07:09 PM
Always have a method of healing yourself and always try to be at full health, you don't know what is capable of dealing damage to you.
While it may be tempting to simply smash and dispel your way through, some things in the tomb are required to stay intact in order to retrieve plot coupons.
While paranoia is healthy, being too paranoid means you won't have any fun. If you don't have fun, you're not going to want to finish, and that means you've lost.
It's a dungeon crawl, not an epic story. Expect cliches and that all of the random items you find on your way are useful in some way.
There are save-or-screwed traps. They're worse when you're solo.
Ask your DM about starvation and thirst rules.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-30, 07:30 PM
Warforged warlock, shattering everything in sight, as per Ganurath.

Being warforged gives you immunity to a fair few traps.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-30, 08:18 PM
Warlock with...
Baleful Utterance: Like you said, lots of traps. Most traps are objects.
Fell Flight: Most traps also involve touching something.
The Dead Walk: When in doubt, pull a dead dog out of your Bag of Holding and have it scout ahead. Great distraction in a fight, too.
Voracious Dispelling: If the traps doesn't involve touching you and isn't an object, there's magic. Plus, liches tend to be spellcasters, which makes countermagic nice to have.

You die horribly to Acererak. Don't bother being a Warlock. He eats you horribly and spits out the remains.

Citizen Joe
2008-01-30, 09:37 PM
Warforged warlock, shattering everything in sight, as per Ganurath.

Being warforged gives you immunity to a fair few traps.

Actually being warforged makes you inorganic which ends up being a shortcut. Of course it is a one way short cut...

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-30, 09:42 PM
Actually being warforged makes you inorganic which ends up being a shortcut. Of course it is a one way short cut...

Wow....you're right! You can skip the entire dungeon and go right to the end, unfortunately you miss one slightly important item and have to wait for some one else to show up....good luck.

UglyPanda
2008-01-30, 10:06 PM
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, then there is no shortcut. Warforged are essentially just treants with armor. Of course, what would normally be a very funny situation would end up being positively disgusting.

Don't read if you plan on playing the tomb.
I'm of course talking about the door which moves all of your nonliving possessions and sends them to the end of the dungeon.
Normally this would end up with your character naked. Instead, your character would wind up screaming in pain as its own skin is nonliving material and would be forcefully teleported off its body.

Phae Nymna
2008-01-30, 10:17 PM
My only advice: DO NOT touch the green wall!

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-30, 10:20 PM
Citizen Joe: Warforged have the [Living Construct] Subtype.

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-30, 10:25 PM
Citizen Joe: Warforged have the [Living Construct] Subtype.

Depends on your interpretation, though I think UglyPanada has a good idea there. That is very evil, very evil indeed.

@ Danin: Very sorry about talking about everything its just too fun :smallbiggrin:

Citizen Joe
2008-01-31, 10:38 AM
Well that 'living matter' trap can be abused, since it is poorly defined. Clearly the author was so caught up in the predicted effects that he ignored all the possible abuses of such a trap. Either way you interpret a warforged, he's kinda screwed. Although, if you make a mechanical familiar and send it through... that might totally crush the end game. Or a small iron golem... whatever. Maybe a teleport beacon... climb into a portable hole, close it up, toss it through, open it up... whole dungeon bypassed. I'll have to assume you've brought a means to teleport out. And don't say teleport doesn't work in there because the whole place is riddled with teleporting stuff and extraplanar creatures.

Frosty
2008-01-31, 01:24 PM
How trivial would it be for a level 17 or 18 who only has minor spellcasting powers and no trapfinding skills and is mainly a warrior-type? This thing sounds like a horror movie come to life in DnD!

Citizen Joe
2008-01-31, 01:44 PM
I think there are a lot of save or die, save or suck, save or screw with the character and arbitrary test and die traps (no save). There's also a lot of ridiculously hard to spot secret doors and such so even if you survive the traps, you wouldn't get anywhere. So, hit points are fairly meaningless and you're risking a lot when a commoner (or puppy) could trip a trap just as well as a level 20 (and die just as easily).

Frosty
2008-01-31, 01:58 PM
save or screw with the character and arbitrary test and die traps (no save). So, hit points are fairly meaningless and you're risking a lot when a commoner (or puppy) could trip a trap just as well as a level 20 (and die just as easily).


Can you give me a few examples of these traps (especially the arbitrary tests or die ones) in spoiler tags? How much do AC and saves mean? If a character can pump his AC up to like 50, and his saves to the high 20s, he can probably survive right?

Adumbration
2008-01-31, 02:07 PM
Can you give me a few examples of these traps (especially the arbitrary tests or die ones) in spoiler tags? How much do AC and saves mean? If a character can pump his AC up to like 50, and his saves to the high 20s, he can probably survive right?


Not if he sticks his head in to the darkness, he won't. Nothing protects from PC stupidity.

Frosty
2008-01-31, 02:11 PM
Not if he sticks his head in to the darkness, he won't. Nothing protects from PC stupidity.


What is this darkness thing? Does the adventure ask you if you want to stick your head into something?

Grey Paladin
2008-01-31, 02:18 PM
Can you give me a few examples of these traps (especially the arbitrary tests or die ones) in spoiler tags? How much do AC and saves mean? If a character can pump his AC up to like 50, and his saves to the high 20s, he can probably survive right?

Traps in Tomb of Horrors hardly, if ever, relay on a statistic other then the Player's paranoia score.

Deuce
2008-01-31, 02:49 PM
What is this darkness thing? Does the adventure ask you if you want to stick your head into something?

If it's anything like the original, there is a very dark hole ina wall, you can't see what's in it, no matter what - because the hole contains a Sphere of Annihilation.

The party I ran through it lost their Barbarian when he stuck his head and upper body in. They were never quite sure what to do with the rest of Phred.

Citizen Joe
2008-01-31, 02:56 PM
Ya, its traps like if you do X, you die... period.

But there are traps that are If you do X, Y happens... but if you do X a second time Z happens. Then there are traps that do damage and traps that trap you in a room with no way out. And then there are traps where you have to do X,Y,Z in order to progress and if you don't you get flung back to the beginning. And there are some Save or get laughed at by the DM traps.

Of course the funny thing is that, if you aren't creative or perceptive, the entire dungeon could end in the first few minutes with everyone shrugging and going home. There are two chances in three that you pick the wrong entrance and die. If you get the right entrance there are a few traps but no specific clues to figure out how to proceed so you might just immediately give up. "Well guys, it's empty, let's go home."

Frosty
2008-01-31, 03:58 PM
What's the point of this place anyways? From a player's standpoint, even if you beat it, you lose, because being paranoid and taking 20 to search every square isn't fun.

Get a high level caster to Miracle/Wish the entire complex out of existence.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-31, 04:06 PM
What's the point of this place anyways? From a player's standpoint, even if you beat it, you lose, because being paranoid and taking 20 to search every square isn't fun.

Get a high level caster to Miracle/Wish the entire complex out of existence.I think it kills you if you try that.

Runolfr
2008-01-31, 04:11 PM
The Tomb is notorious for having "trick clues". What you think is a clue to help you solve a puzzle may actually be a trick to get you killed. Part of the entire premise of the place is misdirection. You really have to be constantly thinking "why would a really sneaky bastard leave this clue" whenever you encounter one. Keep in mind that there's usually a grain of truth to the clue, but if the solution seems obvious, it's probably a trap.

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-31, 04:39 PM
The Tomb is notorious for having "trick clues". What you think is a clue to help you solve a puzzle may actually be a trick to get you killed. Part of the entire premise of the place is misdirection. You really have to be constantly thinking "why would a really sneaky bastard leave this clue" whenever you encounter one. Keep in mind that there's usually a grain of truth to the clue, but if the solution seems obvious, it's probably a trap.

I don't know if that's a fair generalization, there are a number of things that look to be too obvious of a solution but it is the correct one. Basically, they mix it up so you screw up.

Citizen Joe
2008-01-31, 04:42 PM
What's the point of this place anyways? From a player's standpoint, even if you beat it, you lose, because being paranoid and taking 20 to search every square isn't fun.

Get a high level caster to Miracle/Wish the entire complex out of existence.

Congratulations, you just won. Winning is basically NOT going in and realizing that there's no payoff or point in going in.

EDIT: It was originally run as a convention module but has since gained notoriety. However, now that everyone knows SOMETHING about it, a DM has to mix things up so people don't just walk through with player knowledge. Also, due to player knowledge, and abuse of the place (stealing all those nice things/traps), 'special guardians' have been added that will rebuild/replace/reset everything. Thus wishing it away will result in it reappearing in an unspecified period of time. Actually, those special guardians are abusable too.

I like to think that there is an unspoken agreement between the players and the DM in such a way that it is not an adversarial relationship. The characters might face opponents that the DM provides, but if the players ever think the DM is being spiteful or targetting the characters to get back at the players then the players can make the DM's life a living hell. The flip side of that is that the Players should accept plot hooks and things like that to keep the game going. This module is an outright violation of that code and thus results in a lot of this "How can I screw with the module?" speculation. Really, the module should be kept in it's wrapper and held at the side of the gaming table. If the DM feels the players are acting up, he should reach over and brandish the module threateningly. THAT is the proper use of Tomb of Horrors. If that doesn't work, grab Vecna Lives!

Runolfr
2008-01-31, 04:44 PM
I don't know if that's a fair generalization, there are a number of things that look to be too obvious of a solution but it is the correct one. Basically, they mix it up so you screw up.

That just plays into the whole misdirection theme, though. Sometimes the obvious clue is right, just to keep you guessing. If it's obvious, you should look for an alternate interpretation. Then you should ask why a sneaky bastard might want you to reach the alternate conclusion.

The place really is obscenely evil that way.

A wand of augury might really be handy in that place.

Citizen Joe
2008-01-31, 04:54 PM
A wand of augury might really be handy in that place.
No it wouldn't, it would constantly say WOE!

Demented
2008-01-31, 05:15 PM
Congratulations, you just won. Winning is basically NOT going in and realizing that there's no payoff or point in going in.

Some people love the challenge.
For them, you need to make Tomb of Horrors 2. And 3.

Frosty
2008-01-31, 05:17 PM
Challenges would include clues. Things that kill you arbitrarily unless you know exactly what's going on is not a challenge so much as a PC kill-fest.

Grey Paladin
2008-01-31, 05:44 PM
Challenges would include clues. Things that kill you arbitrarily unless you know exactly what's going on is not a challenge so much as a PC kill-fest.

If there's anything that can challenge an optimized 3E wizard - this is it, do not bash it.

The whole purpose of the module is to provide challenge (AKA death) to the most cheesed out characters in existence, which results in the near instant death of mere mortals.

Shishnarfne
2008-01-31, 05:47 PM
Challenges would include clues. Things that kill you arbitrarily unless you know exactly what's going on is not a challenge so much as a PC kill-fest.

Alright, I've played through this (very recently) and now have a copy.

There are a few clues that can help avoid some of the nastier tricks... If you recognize them for what they are...

Yes, probably the entire party will end up dead... However, I think that the Tomb can be a fun diversion for players who want a bit of a different challenge...

And then there's bragging rights: we got this far in the Tomb before we all died, how far did you get?

Honestly, without a fair bit of metagaming or an IMMENSE amount of paranoia, I don't see a way to actually see the demilich without losing at least one character... Though you can get very close....

Frosty
2008-01-31, 05:57 PM
Well, I suppose with a healthy dose of Ressurection spells and other similar spells that doesn't cost a level t bring back the dead, Magnificent Mansion, and Rope Trick, you can in theory get past this thing eventually. Nova to keep yourself alive, and then retreat into MMM to rest up for more spells.

Cruiser1
2008-01-31, 06:00 PM
Wand of Disintegration. No more walls. 'nuff said.
Regrettably, wands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) can only exist for spells up to level 4, while Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) is a level 6 spell. Now a staff with Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm#transmutation) would work, however that costs quite a bit.

Brawls
2008-01-31, 06:47 PM
. . . Of course the funny thing is that, if you aren't creative or perceptive, the entire dungeon could end in the first few minutes with everyone shrugging and going home. There are two chances in three that you pick the wrong entrance and die. If you get the right entrance there are a few traps but no specific clues to figure out how to proceed so you might just immediately give up. "Well guys, it's empty, let's go home."
That is what happened to the group I was with when we first tried back in the wonderful days of AD&D. All this build-up and excitement only to be quashed by a lame ass false entrance trap about 15 minutes into it.:smallmad:
Our second attempt was much better, but still no survivors. Of course, we weren't playing with back-up characters or with access to rez or re-incarnate. We were woefully underoptimized for the task.

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-31, 07:08 PM
That is what happened to the group I was with when we first tried back in the wonderful days of AD&D. All this build-up and excitement only to be quashed by a lame ass false entrance trap about 15 minutes into it.:smallmad:
Our second attempt was much better, but still no survivors. Of course, we weren't playing with back-up characters or with access to rez or re-incarnate. We were woefully underoptimized for the task.

That sucks, I'm going to run it for my players over the weekend, but each one has a clone or rez mechanic. Two are brothers descended from a mortal kobold and Kurtulmak, but the only extra power they got was that when they die they come back a day later with no memory of the previous day. Another player is a servant of Bahamut (dragonborn actually) who was exceptional enough that Bahamut creates a new body and mind whenever he dies so he is effectively cloned, I don't know what the others have yet. Also, they have a special...thing that follows them around that acts as a living journal, but can't be effected by anything and is linked to their minds so after each death they can learn from their mistakes.

FoE
2008-01-31, 07:13 PM
I never actually played Tomb of Horrors, but my brother owned the module. I read through it and got pretty bored. Lots of lethal traps but very little action.

My one piece of advice? Bring a slingshot.

Danin
2008-01-31, 08:10 PM
So many spoilers! So tempting to look!

Actually, I have the distinct feeling you're all making fun of me behind my back but I can't be sure...

Still, this has actually been a great help. With any luck my DM will be free this friday or saturday and I'll get to run it. I enjoy the seemingly impossible challenges so this seems to be the thing for me.

Also, one note. My DM has agreed that a druidic friend of mine will be able to reincarnate me 3 times which means I get 3 shots at it (arguably) risk free. After that, if I risk it a fourth time, its make it or be dead for good, something I've never had a character face before...

As to skills, do you feel its important maxing out some of the arbitrary skills (Use rope, climb and escape artist to name a few) or should I only max out the painfully usefull ones (Search, Listen, Spot, Hide, Move silently, Disable divice and Open lock to name a few) and spread the rest out?

At level 11 I could have taken FoI 7 times. Is this really the best use of my feats?

Maerok
2008-01-31, 09:08 PM
Doesn't reincarnate mean you'll come back as a [insert random animal name here]?

tyckspoon
2008-01-31, 09:13 PM
Doesn't reincarnate mean you'll come back as a [insert random animal name here]?

Random (whatever basic type you are), in the current edition of the spell. The default chart is humanoids. I think earlier editions had a pretty good chance of turning you into a badger.

Danin
2008-01-31, 09:16 PM
I might have better luck as a badger...

Still, the spell only has a 1% chance of using a different table or something like that. I get 3 shots and a 4th if I feel like risking it.

Chronos
2008-01-31, 09:39 PM
As to skills, do you feel its important maxing out some of the arbitrary skills (Use rope, climb and escape artist to name a few) or should I only max out the painfully usefull ones (Search, Listen, Spot, Hide, Move silently, Disable divice and Open lock to name a few) and spread the rest out?It varies from skill to skill. For Use Rope, for instance, the DCs are all very low, so it's seldom worthwhile to invest much in it (if at all). For each skill, decide what you want to be able to do with it (and check the corresponding DCs) and what chance of success you want to have, and consider what sort of circumstances you're likely to be in when you need it (will you be able to take 10, or 20?). That will tell you how many ranks you need in it. Also, look for skills which are trained-only but not too difficult, or which have special effects at certain number of ranks (like synergy bonuses, or the "flatfooted while balancing unless you have 5 ranks" thing).