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Maerok
2008-01-29, 01:23 PM
I'm looking for a supremely versatile build that is essentially a jack of trades; one PrC that seems very appealing for this would be the Master of Many Masks, which gives out all sorts of nifty abilities. Whatever can't be covered by that can be UMD'd. The question would then seem to be what class to start off from: Bard (bardic music, some spells, seems like a midway between rogue and beguiler for these purposes), Rogue (skills, trapfinding, sneak attack), Beguiler (useful all around in social environments). The Jack of Trades feat from CAdv or CSco would be a must in any case (and the Athletic Daredevil feat from one of those two books for a +5 3/day to one of several physical skills would be cool too).

We don't really do that much combat (a lot of social interaction and problem solving/exploring), so a melee character isn't a necessity as we have a dwarven fighter tank and cleric.

Frosty
2008-01-29, 01:26 PM
Factotum maybe? He pretends to know how to do everything.

Danin
2008-01-29, 01:30 PM
I'll throw my vote in for Factotem too. Dungeonscape, uses int for everything, all skills as class skills, D8 HD and Rogue BAB. He can even heal and cast a little (not to mention turn undead). Not too over powered actually (Unless you take Font of Insparation as every feat).

If not, I'd go with Beguiler or straight up Rogue. UMD makes anything possible.

Maerok
2008-01-29, 01:34 PM
Don't have Dungeonscape... Is it any good?

Telonius
2008-01-29, 01:38 PM
Well, one of the authors has a relatively popular webcomic anyway.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-29, 01:42 PM
Don't have Dungeonscape... Is it any good?

Yes it is a great single or triple level dipping class with an intelligent PC and the class is the main reason to buy Dungeonscape IMO. Really nice in a gestalt game and taking 8 levels with a spellcaster. Factotum handbook thread at Wizard's to give a handle on the class:


http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436

Maerok
2008-01-29, 01:44 PM
I heard he was a hack. :D

Keld Denar
2008-01-29, 01:55 PM
Factotum11/Chameleon9

You decide who you want to be every day when you wake up, even if you weren't him last night when you went to sleep. Bored doesn't exist in your vocabulary.

Adumbration
2008-01-29, 01:56 PM
Chameleon seconded.

playswithfire
2008-01-29, 02:14 PM
Chameleon thirded. It also has as a prereq a feat I would've suggested anyway: Able learner.

I don't know much about factotum, but rogue and bard might make other good starting classes.

Aerogoat
2008-01-29, 02:16 PM
Chameleon seconded. And if you're attached to Master of Masks, X 5/Chameleon 7/MoM 8 is probably the way to go.

But otherwise, MoM is awful. Don't do it without some form of accelerated spellcasting.

nargbop
2008-01-29, 04:24 PM
Factotum Factotum Factotum. I'm playing a factotum right now and he's awesome. Turning undead in the same round as you smack an overzealous barbarian in the back of the head with a sneak attack? Yes, please.

Dungeonscape is the book. Get it ; a particular author will thank you,

Voyager_I
2008-01-29, 05:09 PM
I'd advise staying away from Master of Masks. The bonuses it offers are pretty trivial by the levels you start getting them.

Person_Man
2008-01-29, 06:14 PM
Factotum rocks. I highly suggest playing one.

If you're so poor that you can't give the host of this site a few bucks, then Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) /Full Caster PrC is just as good, if not better, at doing everything. Archivists can memorize any divine spell. This includes Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, and domain spells (ie, many arcane spells).

If you're smart about your spell selection and buy a few wands, you can do pretty much anything in D&D that you can think of.

Maerok
2008-01-29, 06:33 PM
Eh, I've got an Amazon card I've yet to use. But I've heard ups and downs about Dungeonscape, and I've heard some bad things about Cityscape. Is it a DM or player book?

Where is the Chameleon class from? Races of ___?

Dark Tira
2008-01-29, 07:13 PM
Where is the Chameleon class from? Races of ___?
Destiny or see it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-29, 08:07 PM
Changeling Rogue Variant -2 (10 SPs a level for a Skill Monkey with Evasion),

Factotum - 3 really solid with extra Fonts of Inspiration feats,

Chameleon -10* or Ur Priest -10* (Level 9 spell casting (Other PRCs could be applied to Ur Priest things like Thaumaturgist - 4 or 5 and Loremaster - 2 or 3 on top of Ur Priest -2)

Factotum +5* for extra actions with spellcasting (Level 8 Factotum capstone) (Shouldn't be a problem multiclassing since Rogue is a Favored Class for Changelings).

*Master of Masks level dips to personal taste. With BAB averaging a level dip into Monk, Bard and Marshal (Motivate Intelligence) could also provide a lot of benefits.

Nebo_
2008-01-29, 09:48 PM
Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Who the hell cares 2

Take Font of inspiration lots and lots of times.

Tengu
2008-01-29, 11:05 PM
Hmm, a question on Font of Inspiration (since we're talking, among others, about Factotum here) - it's a bit unclearly worded how does it work. If I take this feat three times, for example, do I gain +1/+1/+1 for a total of +3 inspiration points, or +1/+2/+3 for a total of +6?

Mad Wizard
2008-01-29, 11:18 PM
Eh, I've got an Amazon card I've yet to use. But I've heard ups and downs about Dungeonscape, and I've heard some bad things about Cityscape. Is it a DM or player book?

Where is the Chameleon class from? Races of ___?

Dungeonscape is probably one of my favorite books, actually. I'm a big fan of nifty alchemical and mundane items, and it has plenty of those. It also has some great alternate class features and rules for different kinds of dungeons (organic ones, solid air walls, etc.).

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-29, 11:42 PM
Hmm, a question on Font of Inspiration (since we're talking, among others, about Factotum here) - it's a bit unclearly worded how does it work. If I take this feat three times, for example, do I gain +1/+1/+1 for a total of +3 inspiration points, or +1/+2/+3 for a total of +6?

The latter for the total of +6.

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-30, 12:45 AM
Cityscape is an okay book; it's especially good if you do a lot of adventures in cities. PrC's like the City Soul are just... fun. Even if you do need to be in a city for them to be worthwhile. I picked up both it and Dungeonscape at the same time, and its hard to say which I like more.

The_Snark
2008-01-30, 01:05 AM
Cityscape is an okay book; it's especially good if you do a lot of adventures in cities. PrC's like the City Soul are just... fun. Even if you do need to be in a city for them to be worthwhile. I picked up both it and Dungeonscape at the same time, and its hard to say which I like more.

Cityscape might not be the book people are thinking of in this thread; Races of Destiny is the one with the Urban Soul, Chameleon, etc.

Cityscape was a pretty decent book, but largely oriented towards DMs. For players, it had one OK prestige class (crimson scourge), and a very small smattering of feats and spells, with only a couple worth mentioning—Invisible Spell, which removes the visual effect of any spell you apply it to, and Devil's Whisper, a warlock invocation that causes a target to follow a suggestion, and then forget that you compelled them to do it and believe they did it of their own accord. Nothing useful for what you're looking for.

Binder is also a decent multipurpose class, but it has limited out-of-combat problem solving abilities, so you're probably better off with factotum and chameleon.

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-30, 01:17 AM
Bah - you're right, Snark. I was mixing up Races of Destiny and Cityscape.

Karuma
2008-01-30, 01:19 AM
Well I would say Factotum to at least 13. Then you at least have the emergency "I win" button against anything alive granted that you can at least get in a touch attack.

Cunning Breach + Stop Heart

It's the kind of thing you save for when it hits the fan and you woke up a dragon.

Draz74
2008-01-30, 01:30 AM
Cityscape was a pretty decent book, but largely oriented towards DMs. For players, it had one OK prestige class (crimson scourge), and a very small smattering of feats and spells, with only a couple worth mentioning—

Ironically, I've seen Cityscape referenced the most (especially in terms of optimization) for something that's not even in it: its Web Enhancement feature on the Wizards web site. Which contains the Riposte alternate class feature for the Scout.

Behold_the_Void
2008-01-30, 01:44 AM
For the record, since everyone's dancing around the issue, the Factotum is from Dungeonscape, one of the contributors of whom is none other than Rich Burlew, creator of Order of the Stick.

Greyen
2008-01-30, 06:11 AM
Clear the Factotum and number of times you can take Font of Inspiration with your DM first. Many DM's I have met and played with will no longer allow a factotum due to the 1st round I kill everything FoI nova.

Basically a Factotum burns all of their inspiration points all at once to do 47 attacks at +26 to hit with +18d6 damage...well thats exaggerated but not by much.

Factotum are a cool class though. Binders can be a fun Job A on Monday Job B on Tuesday class too.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-30, 08:03 AM
Just to throw a different suggestion down for a starting class - Beguiler.

You got versatile spells, and lots of skills. It doesn't cover melee well, but other than that it's an extremely versatile class.

Maerok
2008-01-30, 09:29 AM
Thanks for all the information! I think I'll go Factotum/Chameleon (I need to work on the ratio of levels, though) as I wanted someone who could do damn near everything under the sun without necessarily needing a wand to do it. I love the option to go from Mystic Theurging to sneak attacking and then raging all in the same battle, with access to every piece of weapon and armor ("except tower shields"); also, custom Bonus Feat daily (I can never decide on feats, so this is entirely me).

I have some questions concerning the Chameleon:
If I switch from Arcane casting to Divine casting, my already used spell slots probably stay used?
I only get one Ability Boon at a time (for when I get to dual-use Aptitude Focus)?
Where is Font of Inspiration?

My necromancer might have an unfortunate accident this Sunday...

Devils_Advocate
2008-01-30, 05:02 PM
I gather that Pact Magic (from Tome of Magic) and incarnum (from Magic of Incarnum) also do the whole "What do I want to be today?" thing, although I don't know how they compare to Chameleon.

If you have access to the changeling race, that's definitely an option to consider for a character like this, as many changelings have exactly the sort of odd psychology suited to this sort of role. These "becomers", as Races of Eberron calls them, find it entirely natural to assume and discard personalities just as they do outfits and forms. This is actually something that we all do all the time: You don't behave exactly the same way around everyone you know, do you? Becomers just take this to the next level, mostly in their willingness to alter their behavior and appearances for total strangers. While their level of skill at assuming many widely varying personae naturally lends itself to the role of spy, there's actually nothing inherently deceptive about this behavior, and a becomer might very well openly change her appearance, mannerisms, and gender to whatever she feels will allow her to best interact with her friends at the time. And if she comes off as being insincere, that's just because her friends misunderstand her to be hiding a "true self" that she actually doesn't even have. In a world where one's ability to cope with and adapt to constantly changing circumstances is so often the difference between failure and success, she's just better at it than almost everyone else because it comes entirely naturally to her. So, if anything, don't hate the player, hate the game.

The Chameleon's abilities, then, are just a natural extension and refinement of this. They represent the ability to even more fundamentally alter one's mind and body if given enough time, significantly adjusting one's outlook, personality, psychology, physiology, and -- consequently -- skill set to whatever one deems most appropriate. This might even change your alignment, depending on how your DM thinks alignment really works. These aren't multiple personalities that fight for control of your mind; they're a bunch of distinct, deeply involved activities that you engage in voluntarily in order to accomplish your goals. When the world makes demands of you, you just do your best to at least meet the world halfway.

If I switch from Arcane casting to Divine casting, my already used spell slots probably stay used?
I'd say that you have two separate sets of spell slots that just use the same chart because you get the same base allotment of each. I'm not sure how it would work if that weren't the case. Preparing your spells is complicated enough already, really: You have to be in Divine Focus at sunrise to refresh your divine spells, and even if you got 8 hours of sleep last night, getting your arcane spells ready takes 3 hours: 1 hour to switch to Arcane Focus, the 1 hour of uninterrupted rest required immediately prior to preparing spells, and 1 hour to prepare the spells. It goes down to 2 hours and 10 minutes at Chameleon level 8, or to 2 hours if your DM thinks that changing aptitude focus isn't a "fairly demanding mental task".

Aerogoat
2008-01-30, 05:15 PM
If I switch from Arcane casting to Divine casting, my already used spell slots probably stay used?
I only get one Ability Boon at a time (for when I get to dual-use Aptitude Focus)?
Where is Font of Inspiration?

Yes.
Yes.
Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)

Tengu
2008-01-30, 09:07 PM
The latter for the total of +6.

That's... very powerful. It seems that a properly build Factotum is a guy who basically uses Int for everything...

Very fun class.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-30, 09:16 PM
Hmm, a question on Font of Inspiration (since we're talking, among others, about Factotum here) - it's a bit unclearly worded how does it work. If I take this feat three times, for example, do I gain +1/+1/+1 for a total of +3 inspiration points, or +1/+2/+3 for a total of +6?

+6 Inspiration Points by taking the Font of Inspiration feat 3 times and +10 with a fourth so using Flaws can be a pretty good ideal.

Factotum is also nice with the Iajutsu skill from Oriental Adventures or Autohypnosis from EPH for memorizing and other skill checks.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-31, 04:39 AM
Wait - with respect to multifaceted builds, would it be possible to use Ultimate Magus or Mystic Theurge to combine both Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord? :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2008-01-31, 06:20 AM
Wait - with respect to multifaceted builds, would it be possible to use Ultimate Magus or Mystic Theurge to combine both Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord? :smallbiggrin:

Not UM, but in principle, MT could.

It would be a simply ridiculous build though. You more or less need to be a Bard-10 to get SC, right? Any way you can meet the prereqs for Ur-Priest with that?

Kurald Galain
2008-01-31, 07:56 AM
Not UM, but in principle, MT could.

It would be a simply ridiculous build though. You more or less need to be a Bard-10 to get SC, right? Any way you can meet the prereqs for Ur-Priest with that?

Ur Priest -> Nar Demonbinder -> Mystic Theurge. How's that? :)

It's still not all that useful until very high level, though. Well, I suppose you could lead in with Wizard -> Master Specialist -> Mindbender, or something.


Hm, anybody got a link on the "most prestige classes in a single build"? :smallbiggrin: (assuming level 20, no gestalt)

Arbitrarity
2008-01-31, 08:16 AM
SC needs at least 7 levels of bard (3rd level spells), but at least 13 ranks, so level ten minimum. So, Bard 9/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/MT9. There's something better to do with the bard levels...

I was thinking of playing a simple Factotum 5/Chameleon 10/Factotum 5 (Potentially starting at level 20). Any ideas on how to improve the level selection? What feats to take if FoI is out?

Maerok
2008-01-31, 08:44 AM
With all this, is the Factotum balanced?

kamikasei
2008-01-31, 08:49 AM
With all this, is the Factotum balanced?

Font of Inspiration can make it a bit broken. For the most part, though, it's not great at anything. It is to a Bardic jack-of-all-trades what a Duskblade is to other gishes. It can do anything, and maybe be as good as anyone else at it, but only once per encounter or a handful of times a day. The really impressive displays require you to have FoI as every feat and blow basically all your resources in the first round of a combat.

At least, that's my understanding.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-31, 09:09 AM
SC needs at least 7 levels of bard (3rd level spells), but at least 13 ranks, so level ten minimum. So, Bard 9/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/MT9. There's something better to do with the bard levels...

All right, I don't have the books around atm, but does SC really need 7 bard levels, or just bardic music, 3rd level spells, and some skill ranks? If so, bard 1 / wizard 5 / something 2 / Ur-priest 1 / SC 1 / MT 10 would work better, I think.

Maerok
2008-01-31, 10:08 AM
Ok, well it seems like a good choice for the sort of game I'm in right now. It's hard to predict what exactly will be needed for any given point in time. We were part of a thieves guild that was wiped out by a nation-wide band of pirates that have begun to infiltrate the ruling body of the country. We're essentially on our own and currently hiding out inside the secret passages within the walls of the castle where the corrupt king rules from. My necromancer has been performing all sorts of weird spells on the king through the peepholes to make him think that the castle is haunted (blind the king, deafen the queen, bats in the bedroom). And then we hauled all the food into the dining room and burned it.

I think I might blitz the Chameleon PrC and go Factotum 5/Chameleon X/Factotum X. I'd like to load up on skill trick and luck feats from CSco, as well as human destiny feats from RoD (Heroic Destiny). Although I only need to take the first feat or so to be able to gain access to the rest with the Chameleon's shifting bonus feat. :D

kamikasei
2008-01-31, 02:12 PM
All right, I don't have the books around atm, but does SC really need 7 bard levels, or just bardic music, 3rd level spells, and some skill ranks? If so, bard 1 / wizard 5 / something 2 / Ur-priest 1 / SC 1 / MT 10 would work better, I think.

The latter. Sublime Chord requires 3rd level spells, bardic music, and an assortment of skills including 13 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Listen.

Looking at the classes now, the real problem is that MT requires 2nd-level divine casting, which you get at UP3. So you need three levels of UP, which has Listen as cross-class, and requires a +3 base Fort save to qualify. You can take your first level of UP at 6th level going by skill ranks, but you need to leave yourself at least one level of something skillful before you take SC at 11th (the earliest possible, again by skills), and have to pick up 3rd-level arcane casting in the meantime. That's actually pretty tricky.

Bard-1/Fighter-1/Bard+4/Ur-Priest-3/Bard+2 might be able to qualify. In fact I do believe it would. Then Sublime Chord+1/Mystic Theurge+9 gets you 9th-level divine casting at 17 and arcane at 19. Of course, you run out of Ur-Priest levels to stack your MT casting with at level 18...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-31, 02:43 PM
I think I might blitz the Chameleon PrC and go Factotum 5/Chameleon X/Factotum X. I'd like to load up on skill trick and luck feats from CSco, as well as human destiny feats from RoD (Heroic Destiny). Although I only need to take the first feat or so to be able to gain access to the rest with the Chameleon's shifting bonus feat. :D

A single level dip into psion seer variant for the ECS Action Boost and Action Surge feats in a typically non action point game would be worth considering along with a single level dip into Marshal for Motivate Aura Intelligence Base 14 Char would be +2 to Intelligence before Charisma boosting items enhance it.

Maerok
2008-01-31, 04:12 PM
My DM doesn't like psionics. Whether or not that dip would bring any psionic abilities along with it. As for Marshal, I'll have to look into it. But I'm not a fan of taking single-level dips in the middle of my character progression.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-31, 04:13 PM
Mainly taking the two level dips since Factotum caps at L8 and getting a little more for the PC with the dips. Seer variant is mainly to access the action point feats from ECS in a game that doesn't use them.

Aerogoat
2008-01-31, 07:19 PM
Bard-1/Fighter-1/Bard+4/Ur-Priest-3/Bard+2 might be able to qualify. In fact I do believe it would. Then Sublime Chord+1/Mystic Theurge+9 gets you 9th-level divine casting at 17 and arcane at 19. Of course, you run out of Ur-Priest levels to stack your MT casting with at level 18...
Savage Bard could fill your Fortitude needs more elegantly than Fighter. It would let you take Sublime Chord at level 11, finishing its spell progression before epic levels.

Fizban
2008-01-31, 08:08 PM
Yes.
Yes.
Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)


*Yes and No. Your spell slots have been used, but it doesn't matter since you don't have them anymore. Your arcane and divine casting have different spell slot allocations: if you use both at once you get both at your full chameleon casting for both. Yes that means you get tons of spell slots. No it's not broken, they're all a low enough level that it hardly matters that you have a ton.
*Yes
*What he said.

Edit: actually I'm not sure about the ability boon. It says "when you adopt an aptitude focus", but you adopt both at the same time. Could be either, but pessimism of course says go with the weaker one. And upon further review, the spells aren't too far behind. But It's still not that bad. Either way, I'm quite sure you have separate pools of spell slots for divine and arcane: they never, use the same slots unless an ability very specifically says that they do.As for changing casting focuses... you can only prepare divine spells in the morning, and you need to ready your arcane slots right after resting, so you'd need to: rest 8 hours till dawn, ready and cast all your divine spells, rest for another 3 hours, and ready your arcane spells. A bit of a hassle.

kamikasei
2008-02-01, 03:51 AM
Savage Bard could fill your Fortitude needs more elegantly than Fighter. It would let you take Sublime Chord at level 11, finishing its spell progression before epic levels.

Whoops, added that up wrong. Though I was getting in to SC at 11.

Maerok
2008-02-03, 01:37 AM
So Cunning Surge can be used multiple times a round? With enough inspiration, you could make an insane amount of attacks or cast an ungodly amount of spells. (Nova?)

My planned build is essentially:
Factotum 5 (or 8)/Chameleon 10/Factotum 5 (or 2)
H: Heroic Destiny (RoD)
1: Able Learner (RoD)
3: Jack of All Trades (CSco)
Cham2 (Bonus Feat): Whatever might be needed (I foresee Tracking and Skill Trick Feats, Etc.)
6: Font of Inspiration (+1)
9: Font of Inspiration (+2)
12: Font of Inspiration (+3)
15: Font of Inspiration (+4)
18: Font of Inspiration (+5; +20 total)

MisterSaturnine
2008-02-03, 03:10 AM
What's the consensus on a Binder going into Chameleon? What do you suggest it should multiclass into to get the ranks in Disguise?

Maerok
2008-02-03, 10:44 AM
They don't get it? I thought that would have been something useful to evade persecution.

Aerogoat
2008-02-03, 01:46 PM
What's the consensus on a Binder going into Chameleon? What do you suggest it should multiclass into to get the ranks in Disguise? You could just take the "City Slicker" feat from Races of Destiny instead of multiclassing.

I don't know if it would be the best idea, though: many of the Binder's abilities are level-dependant, which might cause some troubles. You might be able to work it with a few Binder PrCs and some Bloodline cheese, but beyond that it probably wouldn't be the most powerful move.

It might be more efficient to homebrew a "Pact Focus" for the Chameleon class and enter via a different route.

Following the Arcane and Divine Focus patterns, maybe gain the Binding* of a 3rd level Binder at Chameleon 1 (with double your Chameleon level as an "effective Binder Level"), advancing up to the abilities* of a Level 12 Binder at Chamelon 10.
*The Vestiges available and the number of Vestiges bound.