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View Full Version : The Arte of Beguiling, prepare me for



Collin152
2008-01-29, 05:52 PM
Okay, so I'll be playing a Beguiler in an upandcoming game, and It will be my first.
So tell me, what do I need to know?
Are there any good prestige classes for it?
What spells should I keep in mind?
Tell me your secrets, that I may better conceal mine.

Solo
2008-01-29, 05:55 PM
You could go the Shadowcraft Gnome route if you wanted to, but that's just cheese.

With Beguilers, you have a fair mix of save or x spells and utility ones, so I advise you to keep in mind the variety of encounters you'll likely face and look through your spell list for the spells that can be best applied in said situations.

Investing heavily in UMD would also be a good idea.

Remember, you aren't necessarily a primary arcanist, but more of an Arcane Trickster type of character. Plan accordingly.


ps. Colin, according to St. Jude, you cannot glorify fellow posters in your signature.

The jury is out, however, on whether you can quote other people glorifying fellow posters in your signature.

Frosty
2008-01-29, 05:57 PM
Take one level of Mindbender. Take 19 levels of Beguiler.

Draz74
2008-01-29, 06:01 PM
Take one level of Mindbender. Take 19 levels of Beguiler.

That's not a bad suggestion, because it's easy to qualify for Mindbender for your 6th character level. And taking a one-level dip at that point, besides getting you OK special abilities of its own, also delays your Advanced Learning feature until it becomes more useful.

Charlie Kemek
2008-01-29, 06:10 PM
Mindbender is supposedly bad, even though it looks good. I guess that it is bad cause of the low skill points.

you will probably want to take the shadow spells under advanced learning, but you can only take a few spells of your choice. beguiler is more of a "take all twenty levels in this class" class.

Collin152
2008-01-29, 06:12 PM
Hm. Feat selections?

Aerogoat
2008-01-29, 06:14 PM
Mindbender is supposedly bad, even though it looks good. I guess that it is bad cause of the low skill points. Normally it's awful, but 4 skill points is arguably worth the delayed Advanced Learning.

Collin152
2008-01-29, 06:16 PM
Why is it better to delay Advanced Learning a level?

Frosty
2008-01-29, 06:17 PM
Telepathy is worh the 4 lost skill points.

Delaying Advanced Learning will allow you to learn higher level spells quicker.

Sucrose
2008-01-29, 06:27 PM
Mindbender is supposedly bad, even though it looks good. I guess that it is bad cause of the low skill points.

you will probably want to take the shadow spells under advanced learning, but you can only take a few spells of your choice. beguiler is more of a "take all twenty levels in this class" class.

More importantly, Mindbender is only a half-spell progression class. You know how everyone says that Mystic Theurge is a trap, and those who take it, in a party that includes more focused casters, cry? Imagine that, except you don't even get more spells per day.

As a one-level dip for permanent, 100' telepathy, though, Mindbender's great.

Collin152
2008-01-29, 06:41 PM
Alright, the telepathy is awesome. Is it two way, or is it just a way for me to dictate things? Either way, it could make minor scouting a little simpler.
Now, the group I'm playing with does not have a Rogue, and it does have a Sorcerer, so what should I do to maximise my skillmonkeyness? Which skills are vital (Given that I'll need some skill points reserved for Mindbender's prerequisite)?
I guess I'm on my oown for feats, though I think I'll be allright in that department.

Frosty
2008-01-29, 06:49 PM
It is two way commincation. You should ignore open lock as you have the Knock spell. Move silently is useful definitely. So is disable device. Concentration iss mandatory. The rest depends on what role you want to fill. Face? Sage? extremely sneaky bugger?

Collin152
2008-01-29, 06:58 PM
The other player characters are monk, fighter, cleric, sorceror. So, disregarding the potential of the Monk to sneak, I'll probably try to be the "sneaky little bugger" both literally and socially. I get to cast Knock do I? Well what do you know. I don't even need to keep it in scroll form... Though we may encounter locks before fourth level. Well, I'll take a rank anyways. Just in case.

UserClone
2008-01-29, 09:26 PM
I say cheese it up with the Shadowcraft Gnome. First be a Whisper Gnome (RoS) Then, take a level of Mindbender (CArc) at character level 7, take Shadow Conjuration with your Advanced Learning feature at Character level 8, and then take Shadowcraft Mage(RoS, again) to its delicious, cheesy end.

Overlard
2008-01-29, 09:28 PM
Presuming an Int of 16:

UMD, Search, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Bluff, Diplomacy

Try and be a race with darkvision (nothing ruins stealth quite as much as carrying a torch). Take the darkstalker feat from Lords Of Madness.

Let the sorcerer handle the spellcraft/arcana if you can, and the monk can take the movement skills for when they're needed.

I would elaborate, but I'm really tired.

Collin152
2008-01-29, 09:31 PM
Light... I knew I forgot something! Well, seeign as I've already rolled up a human, that complicates things.
I don't feel like playing a gnome, and I don't want Cheese anyways.

Nebo_
2008-01-29, 09:36 PM
Depending on your DM, max out Forgery. I've just started playing a beguiler with it and it's the most fun I've ever had with a skill.

Chronicled
2008-01-29, 09:48 PM
Beguilers are the only class other than Bards that get Glibness - which is arguably the best spell in the game :smalltongue:. I once played a Beguiler that could make epic-level Bluff checks... at level 6.

The Beguiler Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=805782) from the Wizards forums has plenty of helpful advice.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-30, 06:56 AM
I recommend not taking UMD the first couple levels, at least until you can put enough ranks in there to reliably hit DC 20.

Beguiler/20 is solid (and has a nice capstone). There are a few nice prestige classes, such as mindbender. Also, beguiler/wizard/ultimate magus is an interesting option.

Note that at low level, you can use your cantrips (e.g. daze) to lock down an enemy while your party takes care of them.

Stealth skills are always good.

CthulhuM
2008-01-30, 01:38 PM
If you do go with the 1 level mindbender dip, be sure to pick up the mindsight (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mindsight,LoM)feat from LoM. It'll basically give you 100 foot blindsense.

Also, consider invisible spell from cityscape, and the skill trick that lets you conceal your spellcasting (or just the slight of hand usage from races of stone). Nothing quite like standing in the back and doing "nothing" while the monsters focus on the tanks.

Craig1f
2008-01-30, 01:49 PM
If you don't want to take mindbender (because you are a Good character, for example) Fatespinner. They're good for about 4 levels.

Edit: Changed "Luckspinner" to "Fatespinner"

Solo
2008-01-30, 01:55 PM
Fatespinner.

Konig
2008-01-30, 01:59 PM
The biggest issue you'll have with beguiler is fighting undead & outsiders. They tend to be immune to your mind affecting abilities, and many outsiders will pack True Seeing.

Frosty
2008-01-30, 02:02 PM
You mean with Beguilers in general.

sonofzeal
2008-01-30, 02:12 PM
If you do go with the 1 level mindbender dip, be sure to pick up the mindsight (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mindsight,LoM)feat from LoM. It'll basically give you 100 foot blindsense.
+1 good idea. I was going to suggest this if nobody else had.

Tempest Fennac
2008-01-30, 02:17 PM
Regarding the Beguiller's main weakness (almost all of their spells have Will saves), you may want to sit down with the Sorcerer with the Beguiller spell list so that s/he can learn spells which Beguillers cant (eg: flight spells, Teleport, Mage's Magnificent Mansion, a few buffs and some direct damage spells would be really useful).

Collin152
2008-01-30, 03:04 PM
If you don't want to take mindbender (because you are a Good character, for example) Fatespinner. They're good for about 4 levels.

Edit: Changed "Luckspinner" to "Fatespinner"

Hm. Seeing as I'm Lawful Neutral (trust me, it makes sense) taking Mindbender won't be a problem, but how does Fatespinner work well with Beguiler, out of curiosity?
Also, If i'm allowed to, I'll definatley take mindsight. It's cool and helpful.

Craig1f
2008-01-30, 03:33 PM
Hm. Seeing as I'm Lawful Neutral (trust me, it makes sense) taking Mindbender won't be a problem, but how does Fatespinner work well with Beguiler, out of curiosity?
Also, If i'm allowed to, I'll definatley take mindsight. It's cool and helpful.

Well, if you can take mindbender, then it's probably a better choice. A one-level dip into fatespinner isn't very good. You basically get to increase the DC of your spells, as many times a day as you have levels. Which is just +1 DC if you only get one level.

After a few levels, you start being able to immediately give enemies or allies rerolls. If you cast a spell, and your enemy rolls a 20, make him reroll. If your enemy fails a save, give them a reroll. that's either level 2 or 3.

At level 4, you can give yourself a reroll I believe.

Level 5 isn't worth it though, because you lose a caster level. Although, you gain the ability to give someone a +10 or -10 to their next save, which is pretty powerful.

But for a one-level dip, which is all you want, telepathy is pretty bad ass. Especially because I recommend Shadow Well as your level 7 advanced learning.

You can save an ally who is getting wailed on with shadow well. Simply send them a telepathic message "don't resist my spell" then hit them with shadow well. They're transported to the Shadow plane for a few rounds. Whatever is pounding on them is like "son of a .. he disappeared!" and starts attacking a healthier target (hopefully not you).

Collin152
2008-01-30, 03:38 PM
But then the ally might be subject to a fear effect, right?

Craig1f
2008-01-30, 03:48 PM
But then the ally might be subject to a fear effect, right?

You're right. It's an imperfect solution. But let's say a dragon is beating down on your buddy. It's your turn, the dragon is up next, he doesn't see you, and your ally has 10 hp.

The dragon is going to make the save against your spell. Your buddy won't, if he chooses not to.

Now, would your buddy rather disappear for 18 seconds and come back a little scared with the dragon elsewhere, or would he rather take a full-attack from the dragon and die?

I see the spell as battlefield control. It says "I want you out of this battle for a few rounds."

Collin152
2008-01-30, 04:13 PM
Fair enough, use judiciously.
But... this is an illusion spell? Seems mighty conjurationish.

Craig1f
2008-01-30, 04:18 PM
Fair enough, use judiciously.
But... this is an illusion spell? Seems mighty conjurationish.

It's a Shadow Illusion, which is kinda a conjuration. The whole thing with Shadow magic is that the illusions are real.

It does seem strange though, since the creature is actually transported (unless I'm remembering the spell wrong).

I haven't actually used the spell yet or created a beguiler. I became fascinated with Beguilers a while ago, and have had one in reserve for when my barbarian dies. Someone recommended the Shadow Well spell, and then I thought up this particular use for it. If you use the spell, let me know how it works for you. It seems like a solid usage, especially if you use telepathy to communicate to your ally first that you're going to use it.

Collin152
2008-01-30, 04:23 PM
Well, it sounds mighty tempting, so I'm inclined to take it.
As it is, I feel like shadow conjuration/evocation are cheating, but Shadow Well I think I could tolerate using. Maybe if Isay he gains his powers from a link to the plane of shadow...
Speaking of... Where do Beguilers derive their power?

Craig1f
2008-01-30, 04:29 PM
Well, it sounds mighty tempting, so I'm inclined to take it.
As it is, I feel like shadow conjuration/evocation are cheating, but Shadow Well I think I could tolerate using. Maybe if Isay he gains his powers from a link to the plane of shadow...
Speaking of... Where do Beguilers derive their power?

No clue. I always have considered them a variation of sorcerer, like the warmage.

Collin152
2008-01-30, 05:24 PM
Seeing as they use intelligence and get their entire spell list, I'm inclined to expect more.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-01-30, 08:10 PM
Supposedly, Beguilers study hard early on and memorize all of the spells on their lists for all levels, even before they're capable of casting them, like the Warmage. They study them and learn them so well, and the spells are of a sneaky nature so close to their presumably sneaky personalities, that in the end they can cast their spells as if they were second nature, similar to a sorcerer, but using INT as the casting stat. At least, that's how I explain it to myself.

My best advice for Beguiler is to study the spell list, look up the spells, and remember the useful ones. Always cast Undetectable Alignment at the start of each day, remember to take advantage of your free metamagic, and keep casting! Do NOT hoard spells. I've never completely ran out of spells while playing a beguiler, so be liberal in their use, especially the lower level ones.

Another nice thing about beguilers is they can make scouting safer by including more people in the scouting party. Invisibility sphere and Silence can cloak the entire party in stealthy goodness, and it's a lot safer than sneaking around on your own.

Collin152
2008-01-30, 08:14 PM
Supposedly, Beguilers study hard early on and memorize all of the spells on their lists for all levels, even before they're capable of casting them, like the Warmage. They study them and learn them so well, and the spells are of a sneaky nature so close to their presumably sneaky personalities, that in the end they can cast their spells as if they were second nature, similar to a sorcerer, but using INT as the casting stat. At least, that's how I explain it to myself.

My best advice for Beguiler is to study the spell list, look up the spells, and remember the useful ones. Always cast Undetectable Alignment at the start of each day, remember to take advantage of your free metamagic, and keep casting! Do NOT hoard spells. I've never completely ran out of spells while playing a beguiler, so be liberal in their use, especially the lower level ones.

Another nice thing about beguilers is they can make scouting safer by including more people in the scouting party. Invisibility sphere and Silence can cloak the entire party in stealthy goodness, and it's a lot safer than sneaking around on your own.

Is lawful neutral an alignment that merits undetactability?