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Wraith
2008-01-29, 07:00 PM
Heya Gang - I'm hoping you can offer me some advice. I imagine the title gives it away, but just in case I would like some recommendations for useful and/or powerful Mage Spells in SECOND EDITION D&D - that's the really bizarre version where everyone had THACO and really strong characters had 18 (99) Strength... :smalltongue:

I've been talked into playing a campaign with an old friend because... well, because I'm one of the few people he knows that still has the books, and was willing to play a Mage. It's still early days and although the GM is being very generous towards me in terms of keeping me alive and handing out spell scrolls, I would like to be a little more helpful around Combat than simply casting Sleep twice and then retiring.

Can anyone recommend some good tricks that I might like to know? I've read somewhere on this Forum (though for the life of me I can't find a link to it...) a Guide to Great D&D 3.5Ed. Mage Spells and have used it as a rough guide, but the two systems are very different and I'm convinced there's a few things I've missed that could be amusing, and who better to ask than the great minds of GitP? :smallbiggrin:

P.S: Links to the "I Must Not Do This When Gaming" Thread are unnecessary - I've already picked out my favourites for an appropriate event... :smallwink:

Chronos
2008-01-29, 07:48 PM
It's been ages since I've played 2nd edition, but there are a few things I remember. First off, illusions back then were potentially much more powerful than they are now. Enemies didn't even get a chance to disbelieve them unless they had an articulable reason to suspect they were illusionary, and any disbelief attempt on an effect automatically voided any saving throw if the effect turned out to be real. Further, a character hit by (say) an illusionary fireball, who believed it, would also believe that he had taken damage, and when he believed that he'd been dropped to 0 HP, he'd fall unconscious.

Second, there were some spells which were commonly used in particular ways, which have since been ruled out. The one I remember most clearly is that Light, cast on a creature's visual organs, blinded the creature for as long as the spell lasted. I think it allowed a saving throw, but it was lower level than the actual Blindness spell, and more versatile.

Another difference is that they didn't have the rule that you could only summon creatures or objects onto a surface which could support them. So it was perfectly legal to, for instance, cast Create Water directly over someone's head, so a whole bunch of gallons of water would fall on them. It's the DM's discretion what effect this causes, though, since it was never spelled out in the rules. And it's hard to use this trick with monster summoning, since first of all, the spell didn't appear until a significantly higher level, and second, the monsters summoned were rolled up by the DM, not chosen by the caster.

Speaking of DM's discretion, there were a lot of tricks you could talk a DM into ruling worked, which wouldn't fit in the more rigid system of 3.x. A friend told me once, for instance, of a time when his wizard was fleeing from some enemies up a staircase in a tower. He cast Shocking Grasp on the metal handrail, and zapped all of the pursuers at once, since they were all touching it. So be creative, and maybe give the DM a few free beers.

Glyde
2008-01-29, 07:56 PM
Hm, I'd have to dig through my books again, but something cool comes off the top of my head called Wall of Sound.

It creates a massivehuge wall that creates blistering sound on one side and loud sound on the other, silencing everyone on the blistering sound side. If someone passes through it, they're perma deaf from exploding ears. Not too high level either.

Might be bard only, though. I know it's found in the bard book.

Matthew
2008-01-29, 07:58 PM
Armour is a great spell at low levels. Charm Person is similarly potentially very effective, as is Sleep. Depends what level your talking about.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-29, 08:32 PM
Spells that are stronger than they appear:
Light- cast in eyes to blind
Create Water- cast in lungs to kill

Yes, the rules don't state to rule these out like in 3.5.

A great spell is Chomatic Doom: it was a save or effect as you level. After level 11, it became a save or die. Low level effects like blindness, stun, etc, are at lower levels.

SurlySeraph
2008-01-29, 10:04 PM
@^: You mean Chromatic Sphere. The combo is to cast Doom (level 1 spell that reduces saving throws) and then Chromatic Sphere (level 1 spell that becomes a save-or-die at level 11). If at first the enemy makes its save, you do it again.

Chronos
2008-01-29, 10:08 PM
Light- cast in eyes to blind
Create Water- cast in lungs to kill
Most DMs probably won't let you get away with killing someone with Create Water (if it worked, what would all the other spells in the book be for?). But the light-in-the-eyes trick is explicitly allowed, in the spell description.

Chromatic Orb isn't in the core books... Do you have access to anything else?

Thane of Fife
2008-01-29, 10:46 PM
Well, on Create Water:

1. It's a priest spell.
2. It explicitly forbids creating the water inside of a living being.

Other useful spells:

1. Burning Hands is one of the better blasters at a low level, requiring you to get too close for comfort to the enemy, but having a nice damage range.
2. Sleep is always helpful.
3. Wizard Mark, while not particularly helpful, is a nice way to stick it to the villain. Nothing says "I defy you" like vandalizing his walls.

Useful things to do as a wizard, other than cast spells:

1. Carry some Greek Fire. It's like having extra spells!
2. When you have Armor up (and you can keep it up for long periods of time), you're reasonable in close combat. Only as a last resort, of course, but hey, that's why you carry a Quarterstaff, right? (Or a dagger, or sling)
3. The Astrology proficiency is (by the book) almost like getting free (weak) divination spells.
4. Research new spells. Besides improving your spell selection, this gives you the opportunity to cast spells which you've named after your mage, which is a remarkably empowering activity. Moreover, come up with something interesting, and the DM might let you trade it with NPC wizards for other spells you want.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-29, 11:24 PM
1) Armor doesn't have a time-based duration, and it's material component is a piece of leather blessed by a priest... note that bless is NOT in italics. If you cast Armor on Tuesday, and don't take any damage until next year, you have Armor in effect that entire time. Learn it and cast it.

2) As mentioned, Illusions are a lot more effective; they have to have a reason to disbelieve it, and spend an action to do so.

3) Blasting is more effective, but not your best option at 1st level. At 1st level, you're still going to want to buff your part (like enlarging the party fighter).

A question for you, that I may have missed: What level are you?

Matthew
2008-01-29, 11:26 PM
1) Armor doesn't have a time-based duration, and it's material component is a piece of leather blessed by a priest... note that bless is NOT in italics. If you cast Armor on Tuesday, and don't take any damage until next year, you have Armor in effect that entire time. Learn it and cast it.

Aso cast it on other party members, especially Thieves, preferably the day before you go adventuring.

Lord Blace
2008-01-29, 11:44 PM
I know it's not "wizard only" but a nice trick for wizard/cleric multiclassers was
Cause Disease(Fatal): The person affected dies in 6 months.
Followed up by Haste: Everything in the radius ages a year.

It's a bit cheesey though.

Oh for strictly wizard theirs always stoneskin + fireshield.
What's that? You deal no damage to me, but instead take it all yourself? Yes, please.:smallamused:

Telok
2008-01-29, 11:56 PM
Ah, don't bother with Enlarge yet. It's only 10% per level. After 5th level it can be a good buff, but at low levels just don't bother.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-30, 12:06 AM
Ah, don't bother with Enlarge yet. It's only 10% per level. After 5th level it can be a good buff, but at low levels just don't bother.

It does depend on your fighter. If you've got a high-strength fighter with a two-handed sword, tossing enlarge on him at 1st level is a good investment... it lasts several rounds and will provide a lot of bonus damage over that time. If he's not so much, then, yeah, it's not as good.

Grey Paladin
2008-01-30, 06:41 AM
My 2E Manual is in Hebrew, so some of the names may be off.

The fifth level spell Dig is insanely overpowered, and can destroy armies on its own, with one casting.

Before getting Death Spell (6th) or Cloud Kill (5th) ((both of which are excellent)) Phantasmal Killer (4th) is your best death spell, and until you get level 7th spells, your best spell to handle a single target.

(4th) Shadow Beasts/Shadow Conjuration are also extremely powerful

Good old Fireball is actualy useful due to everyone having about half of the HP they have in 3E

Mirage(5th)/Illusion(1st)/Greater Illusion(4th) are recommended for the reasons stated above.

Breach (5th) is a *must* for high level battles versus other mages

Stoneskin (4th)/Mirror Image(2nd)/Invisibility(2nd: greater 4th)/Blink(2nd)/Flight (3th) are all excellent defensive spells, if you have them all up at the same time you are pretty much invincible

Ogh_the_Second
2008-01-30, 06:52 AM
I remember Wraithform, a 3rd-lvl spell I think, to have multiple handy utility functions. And it also goes well with your forum account name.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-30, 07:43 AM
Certain spells in 2E have ludicrous durations. Armor is a good example, since it lasts forever if you play cautiously. Invisibility is another - it lasts a full day as long as you're not attacking.

One spell that is ridiculously overpowered is ESP, a 2nd level spell which essentially allows you to read everybody's mind. Sane DMs will probably not allow this.

Improved Phantasmal Force is a very good audiovisual illusion, with duration of concentration plus a few rounds, and a huge area of effect. Level 2.

2E fireballs can be concussive depending on your DM, and can have enormous blast ranges if cast in a small corridor (since they will attempt to fill a certain amount of area in either direction). Likewise, 2E lightning bolts can bounce off walls, which is nasty if you can cause an enemy to get hit twice by the same bolt.

One that is silly is Fool's Gold, since the material component actually costs more than the amount of fake gold it produces :smallbiggrin:

Specialization is almost mandatory at low level in 2E, because it greatly increases the amount of spells you get per day. The only two schools worth specializing in are probably Alteration and Invocation (since they have over twice as much spells as any other school).

Both the Tome of Magic and the Complete Wizard's Handbook have some nice spells. An interesting option is to specialize as a Wild Mage, which is way more interesting than the 3E equivalent, but remains rather chaotic. Most wizard kits (i.e. alternative class features from the CWH) have interesting fluff but little crunch; the exception is the Witch, which comes with a free magical item or two.

vrellum
2008-01-30, 07:56 AM
I believe color spray was a very good spell.

Thane of Fife
2008-01-30, 08:10 AM
2E lightning bolts can bounce off walls, which is nasty if you can cause an enemy to get hit twice by the same bolt.


I used to think this, but looking it up recently, I realized that this actually just makes it harder to pass the save.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-30, 08:21 AM
I used to think this, but looking it up recently, I realized that this actually just makes it harder to pass the save.

That's what I meant. It's still nasty, because it makes the saves exponentially harder to pass. "Save five times, and if you fail any, you take full damage" is pretty close to "full damage, no save".

Narmoth
2008-01-30, 08:39 AM
1. Burning Hands is one of the better blasters at a low level, requiring you to get too close for comfort to the enemy, but having a nice damage range.
.

My favorite with Burning Hands is to hold the mages hands around someones neck, then cast it. It should sever the head from the torso, working like a called shot in stead of dealing dmg to the whole body


Improved Phantasmal Force is a very good audiovisual illusion, with duration of concentration plus a few rounds, and a huge area of effect. Level 2.

it has some limitations, like how many hd you can make of people belivable and how complex illusion you can make, but it's really good. More than good if you have dm-ed a lot and then play illusionist, as you get great illusions then :smallbiggrin:


Likewise, 2E lightning bolts can bounce off walls, which is nasty if you can cause an enemy to get hit twice by the same bolt.

Or, if planning really good, more than twice.
Now my players have reflecting armours, so they can just stand between the victi of the bolt and reflect it 10 times or something


Specialization is almost mandatory at low level in 2E, because it greatly increases the amount of spells you get per day. The only two schools worth specializing in are probably Alteration and Invocation (since they have over twice as much spells as any other school).

Since you have access to all but 3 of the standard schools when speciallising, other schools work as fine.

Wraith
2008-01-30, 09:25 AM
This may well be a redundant observation, since I'm sure you all know it already, but you guys are 100% Awsome(tm) :smallbiggrin:

By and large I've considered quite a few of the spells mentioned (Sleep, for example - A Save-or-Lose spell without the save? Yummy!) but there were also some I had passed right over.

I have Armour, for example, but completely failed to realise that the duration was "Permanent or until broken". ESP was another I glanced over entirely but could prove to be fun, and I imagine my popularity will sky-rocket when I remember to Enlarge the Dual Bastard Sword-wielding Half-Ogre Barbarian in the party...

Mark Hall: On the verge of Level 4, so I'm about to pick up a new slot for level 2 spells. That's why I wanted to ask the forum, because until now I'd looked at level 2 Spells and wondered why I'd bothered getting this far :smalltongue:
Once again though, GitP fortunately proved me wrong.

Similarly, I've been restricted in the types of purely-offensive spells I have been able to learn. Long story short, my teachers so far are in an Elven community in a grove, so they're not terribly keen on me having things like Flame Sphere or Fireball, when they could give me Web and Invisibility instead. Reason #2 why I was asking for interesting tricks - because I don't have any Spells of Destructive Significance yet

(Or, as we call them, 'SoDS'. The phrase "Awww, Sod it!" has subsequently been restricted to combat situations only, and banned in crowded towns and orphanages... :smallbiggrin: )

Kurald: I originally wanted to Specialise as Necromancer, under the idea that those guys had the most Save-or-Die spells, but I couldn't make the Stat requirements and stuck with generic Mage instead.

Fortunately, the first thing that happened was being given a Ring of Wizardry, so I'm pretty much sorted in the short term insofar as additional slots goes, and the guys who posted above have just pointed out that being a Blaster-Wizard is much more effective in 2nd Edition, so it was never all that necessary.
I would, however, like to know more about Wild Mage if you could tell me where to find it? I remember those guys from Baldur's Gate, and suddenly the possibility of 'accidentally' turning my party into squirrels is too much to resist :smallamused:

Thane of Fife: While I know the system, I'm still fairly new to 2nd Ed. Wizardry. Could you please recommend a good place to start with researching spells, as I don't want to spend a few weeks working on something that turns out to be a weaker version of Skull Trap if I ought to be looking at things like Mass Gate. :smallbiggrin:

Again, thanks guys. I shall look into these spells as soon as I can, and I won't let you down!

hamlet
2008-01-30, 09:43 AM
Things to remember:

1) Learn what your character can do without flinging his spells like a monkey flings his own waste. You don't need to be casting spells in every single encounter to be effective. Pick up some daggers and throw them, but be sure to keep on on hand for the odd enemy that breaks through the front line. A sling is great since rocks are plentiful. Burning oil. Holy water. Even something as simple as picking up the healing proficiency and pulling downed combatants out of harm's way and stopping their bleeding will make you invaluable.

2) Your character is smart. Use that to your advantage. The DM might be amenable to understanding that your character might actually be smarter than you are and giving helpful nudges when you get brian block.

3) Learn to use your spells more effectively. They function as written in the book, yes, but learn how to do fun things. A grease spell is great, but immeasurably more so if cast at the top of a flight of stairs, or at the edge of a pit. Lightning bolts bounce and you can direct it as you wish: cast it over your target's head and have it go vertically. It will bounce several times in a standard 10 ft high corridor causing multiple hits and lots of damage (but be careful, it will cause cave ins sometimes). A well placed darkness spell can take a dozen combatants out of the combat for at least a round or two: drop it on somebody's eyes in the center of a group, or on his shirt collar. All they'll know is that it's suddenly gone dark and they'll have to spend a round or two figuring out what happened. Protection from normal missiles can let you act as a decoy while the rest of the party is out of sight: just stay ahead of them.

It's not about what powers you got, it's about how you use them.

Thane of Fife
2008-01-30, 09:58 AM
As far as 2nd level spells go, Spectral Hand makes those Touch range spells far more safe to cast. Strength is an excellent buff, allowing warriors to reach those high percentile strengths and get some bonus damage. Hypnotic Pattern has the advantage of not requiring speech to cast. Summon Swarm is another decent offensive spell.

Wild Mage is in the Tome of Magic.

As for research, covering the party's weaknesses is always a decent way to go. Mass Gate is unlikely to happen, not only because Gate is already Level
9, but because it ages the caster significantly, which is bad enough before the system shock check. Variants of existing spells are always somewhat useful - simply modifying the damage type, range, or damage range is often enough to make a new spell. For example, an interesting spell could be a fireball that does less damage, but does cold damage, and is only level 2 (I just made that up - don't assume it will actually be helpful). Things like that tend to give wizards added versatility.

Wraith
2008-01-30, 10:08 AM
Specteral Hand! That's the bunny I was looking for, thank you :smallbiggrin: Thanks also for the link, I'll have a look and see what I like.

Any thoughts on making myself useful against Dragons, perhaps? Having looked over the game and chatted briefly with my DM, we're going to be fighting at least 2 or 3 of them in the long run and potentially meet Tiamat on the distant horizon as well.

Obviously I'll start with Immunity to Fire and research some Ice/Acid/Gas etc variants and look at making them Mass Effect too, perhaps pick up a Polymorph and see if I can use some opposite-element dragon breath types myself, but the Big Lizards are notorious for laughing at Mages, Doom'd or otherwise. Perhaps I should start looking into Animating Mountains and just drop one on the buggers.

Spell save against a million tonnes of rubble if you can, sorta thing?

Thane of Fife
2008-01-30, 10:21 AM
Polymorph doesn't work that way in 2nd edition - you don't get any sort of special abilities from you rnew form - just normal movement types, armor class, and damage. That's about it. Still makes you better in combat, but not capable of matching a dragon.

What hamlet said is excellent advice - fight smart, not hard.

hamlet
2008-01-30, 10:34 AM
Any thoughts on making myself useful against Dragons, perhaps? Having looked over the game and chatted briefly with my DM, we're going to be fighting at least 2 or 3 of them in the long run and potentially meet Tiamat on the distant horizon as well.



Don't cast spells at dragons, they have very good saves most of the time, not to mention magic resistance for the big guys. The chances of your spell flat out failing when used directly against said beasties is just too much of a risk.

Use spells on your own party to defend against them, or make yourself more powerful versus them. Enlarge the fighters. Use a Wind Wall to protect against chlorine gas breath weapons or protection from fire against red dragons. The Strength spell wouldn't go awry either.

And, most importantly, a very good tactic against any dragon is numbers. Hire 20 or so archers if it's a younger dragon, or 20 or so archers with magic arrows if it's an older dragon and use them to soften the monster up. Even if they only hit on a 20, that's still 20 chances to get said 20 and put one more hole in its hide.

VERY IMPORTANT: Cast Blur, Mirror Image, or Displace Self on your own squishy body. Dragons are SMART. Once it notices you standing there and waving your arms and saying funny things, it's going to target you instantly and you have no chance in heck to avoid becoming a fine red mist if you are not adequately prepared.

spotmarkedx
2008-01-30, 11:06 AM
low level:
Burning hands - As you get to high levels, this does consistant heavy damage for a first level spell. You have to get close, yes, but its a bit better than a touch spell in this regard.
Enlarge/reduce - Most versatile spells in the game. Poor man's knock spell ("I reduce the door's size by 10%, stick my hand through the gap, and lift the darn bar"). Early save or lose once you get to 5th level or so. Even better once you hit 10th level. Once you get to higher level, the fighter will love the extra damage. Doubles as a hold portal, even at low levels ("So the door expands until it would take damage from expanding further. I think it might be a bit stuck.")
Invisibility - Broken, especially with small parties. If you can cast it on your entire party, you need not worry too much about random encounters
Illusions - As mentioned above, fairly versatile. Also, very nice followup to any high level spell with a visible effect. ("I cast disintegrate. Next round, I cast another spell, and hit the enemy with another thin green beam....")

midlevel:
Stoneskin - Permanent until discharged. Absorbs all damage from a certain # of hits. Cast during downtime.
Feeblemind - Save or Lose for wizards, with a penalty to the save.
Demishadow Monsters - better than the summons. Does some real damage even if target successfully "disbelieves", get useful creatures as compared to the summon monster n spells. Works by HD, not any CR system, so choose low HD, high special ability/attack creatures (also, necessary component of the demi-shadow shadow demi-dracolich)

I'd not worry overmuch about save or lose/die spells as you get to mid-high level games, unless you can get multiple effects happening simultaneously (prismatic wall/sphere). Since saves are based on the target's level, and your spell strength or caster stat has no bearing on such, save or lose/die becomes less and less effective as time goes on. This is why the 2nd ed mage was commonly a blaster. Since spells had an effect, even on a successful save... I seem to remember the science of killing liches went something like this: "I web him. Is he stuck? Okay Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Magic Missile... etc." Our party was both mage and elf heavy. Ahhh, 2ed multiclassing)