On Vs. WH40K threads

[Azerian Kelimon]

Recently, tons of WH40K vs. X thread have emerged. Apparently, much in the same way Sauron vs. X threads once where, WH40K has become the standard combatant in a vs. thread. This thread seeks to address the issue and (hopefully) lower the amount of threads.

Why? A simple reason: WH40k factions were never meant to enter a versus thread. They have a badass/awesome level dialed up to 234, and the multiplied by a number the current world pinball champion would kill to attain.

So, what happens once the thread starts? Well the selected faction of the WH40k universe is proclaimed the winner in a "Simple. Y faction wins" post. Dozens of rebuttals and pro posts emerge. Now, the other competitor can never hope to equal the sheer amount of tech and forces the WH40k faction has. So, there's a few options:

1) Use cheesy tactics (Example: In the "Battle of the Earths" thread, I represented the Forgotten Realms. Since it was impossible to beat the IoM of man, the 40k faction present, with normal means, I had to use Locate city tricks, a Prismatic sphere and a cursed amulet to attract missiles and more to barely stand a chance).

2) Use godlikes.

3) Use Deus Ex Machina.

In all the cases, the 40k supporters will cry foul. It is understandable. However, here's a message for the 40k fans: Look, guys, we know your faction pwns, that your posts are examples of perfect logic, and that it isn't even a contest, but give us a break. Almost all supporters use fluff, where even the lousiest unit is a superman (Example: Eldar monomolecular disk shooters are crappy in the game itself. In fluff, they're infinity plus one guns), and refuse to acknowledge other fluffs (Example: saying that, since a dark archon can withstand a Yamato gun attack, it will be able to shrug off an attack thrown it's way, saying that Zealots CAN go superfast when charging and using speed enhancements). Needless to say, this is irritating, since it eliminates any chances of the other side winning. If you are going to fluff your way to the top, let the other people do the same. If 40k enters a contest, there's a huge power imbalance right off the bat. We know you want to demonstrate how your faction utterly destroys the opposing force, but it is pretty unfair that you are pitting a mere, say, 1 million warriors against thousands of planets.

That is all.

[LordVader]

Or, you can pit a universe with a significant technological edge, such as the Honorverse, against the Imperium.

And you win.

I'd also like to point out that the DA shrugging off a Yamato blast is a gameplay feature, and as such not very reliable for a vs. thread: I would certainly demand background proof (which SC lacks, unfortunately). However, I do indeed acknowledge that zealots have leg enhancements. :smallwink:

[Azerian Kelimon]

The Yamato gun is confirmed to do a 14 digit nuke blast. If you can shrug that, you're bigger than Silver age Supes. Sure, it's cheesy, but it's a good exmaple.

[LordVader]

But has it ever been confirmed in a reliable background story that a DA can shrug off a nuke blast?

I tend to steer away from using game mechanics as VS. threads material whenever possible.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think game mechanics describe general power/toughness. For example, the Dark Archon scenario? Sure, they won't survive a nuke in fluff but they can take quite a few hits before having to flee.

[Raiser Blade]

We proved that marvel kicks WH40K's ass.

If we get the godlikes and the deus ex machina's. But that is what marvel is all about so I think it's a fair result.

[Gungnir]

The Exalted vs WH40K was fun. Took a while to pound "Perfect Defense means IT DOES NOT WORK PERIOD" into it, but I remember someone worked out a way to get around Perfect Diplomancy, which was interesting.

[MeklorIlavator]

I think game mechanics describe general power/toughness. For example, the Dark Archon scenario? Sure, they won't survive a nuke in fluff but they can take quite a few hits before having to flee.

Sometimes game mechanics do, but in case like WH40K, where it is explicitly stated that the game crunch is nowhere near fluff, this reasoning fails.

[LordVader]

The Exalted vs WH40K was fun. Took a while to pound "Perfect Defense means IT DOES NOT WORK PERIOD" into it, but I remember someone worked out a way to get around Perfect Diplomancy, which was interesting.

I'd have to disagree.

That thread should never have existed, because of "Perfect" stuff. Exalted was clearly the victor, whoever started that thread had a working knowledge of Exalted and should have known that there was nothing 40k could do to even hurt them.

At least the ones 40k wins, the losers can actually hurt 40k.

And in 40k, some game mechanics actually do make sense, (ex: Guard) it's just with Marines and Eldar you start to lose it.

[Gungnir]

At least the ones 40k wins, the losers can actually hurt 40k.

And in 40k, some game mechanics actually do make sense, (ex: Guard) it's just with Marines and Eldar you start to lose it.

Well, most setups assumed First Age. Any other time period within the Exalted setting would have gotten pwnzored. Even if the other ages were allowed to organize properly, I doubt they'd have the resources to keep it up for more than a day. Perfects take a lot of energy, and in normal play, you generally keep that particular ace in the hole until the BBEGs show up.

[Rutee]

Sometimes game mechanics do, but in case like WH40K, where it is explicitly stated that the game crunch is nowhere near fluff, this reasoning fails.

Which is a problem with the fluff writers, really. If your system can't represent your fluff, well.. something ought to give.


I'd have to disagree.

That thread should never have existed, because of "Perfect" stuff. Exalted was clearly the victor, whoever started that thread had a working knowledge of Exalted and should have known that there was nothing 40k could do to even hurt them.

At least the ones 40k wins, the losers can actually hurt 40k.
Actually, the person who started the thread genuinely did not know who would win. He said that several times. He grew to the opinion that 4 Solars could take the IoM though, by the end. But yeah, no, Exalted can't really be challenged by any setting, I think. ...Well, Real Life Mythology if they all ganged up might win, since that's where Exalted drew it's inspiration..


The Exalted vs WH40K was fun. Took a while to pound "Perfect Defense means IT DOES NOT WORK PERIOD" into it, but I remember someone worked out a way to get around Perfect Diplomancy, which was interesting.
That was pretty cool. It's hard to come up with stuff that can't be talked to death, isn't it?


Well, most setups assumed First Age. Any other time period within the Exalted setting would have gotten pwnzored. Even if the other ages were allowed to organize properly, I doubt they'd have the resources to keep it up for more than a day. Perfects take a lot of energy, and in normal play, you generally keep that particular ace in the hole until the BBEGs show up.
I doubt it. Remember, Falafel and the other Deathlords. And just because the Solars aren't at PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER doesn't mean that, for instance, the Sidereals, the Lunars are much weaker. Or the First Circle demons. And if it was Age of Sorrows vs. Post Horus Heresy, well..

As to Perfects taking energy.. in 2e, not really. They're 2-3m, no WP. They're pretty spammable if you can keep the awesome flowing.

[GoC]

1) Use cheesy tactics (Example: In the "Battle of the Earths" thread, I represented the Forgotten Realms. Since it was impossible to beat the IoM of man, the 40k faction present, with normal means, I had to use Locate city tricks, a Prismatic sphere and a cursed amulet to attract missiles and more to barely stand a chance).

But DC won that contest didn't they? Stupid Amazo, Wally West and co.:smallannoyed:

[mikeejimbo]

I'd have to disagree.

That thread should never have existed, because of "Perfect" stuff. Exalted was clearly the victor, whoever started that thread had a working knowledge of Exalted and should have known that there was nothing 40k could do to even hurt them.

At least the ones 40k wins, the losers can actually hurt 40k.


Might that have been the point of the thread creator, that when the other universe has things that are so much more powerful than everything, by definition, it's pointless to argue them?

Edit: Whoops, shown to be wrong. Oh well, I still say it's pointless to argue 40k threads. :P

[Tengu]

The fluff of WH40K is written by total fanboys who headbang and do superhorns for 15 minutes after writing every paragraph, which results in ordinary melee weapons and ship turrets that shoot missiles the size of houses both present in the same army and both being viable combat tactics.

Not that it's a bad thing. I like Rule of Cool. But it's not everyone's cake, it's definitely stretching the suspension of disbelief, and it makes it hard to pit that universe against anything else.

[Ominous]

Once again, I must say that the Replicators from Stargate: SG1 beat most factions from WH40K, simply because the writers gave them the No Limits Fallacy.

[Oslecamo]

WH40k fluff is self contradictory many times.

For example, there is fluff in where regular guys with regular swords beat the crap out of a grey knight, when grey knights are suposed to have the best power armor of all backed up by pshychic powers.

Then there is WH40K fluff that regular gaurdsmen with regular lasguns can shoot down titans, when lasguns have trouble killing anything tougher than another guardsmen.

And here's my favorite:
No problem. We showed them skinny Eldar. Come on lads, says I, we're gonna go over there and bury them in their own holes, no worries. There was no worries about cover, 'cos there wasn't any cover. No worries about timing, 'cos us lads were first in. Easy as breakfast.

+++ Sergeant-Ogryn Graxugg, only survivor of an entire platoon +++

So this shows a IG platoon beated the crap out of an Eldar force. Ok, they still have only 1 survivor, but still, it means:

1-The Eldar were slow enough to be caught on by Ogryns, wich have no speed enanchments whatsoever. So the Eldar aren't that fast.

2-The Eldar weapons failed to kill a sizeable amount of Ogryns before entering melee. Whitout any cover I may add.

3-The Eldar failed to best the Ogryns in close combat. And we're talking Ogryns here, to who any strategy more advaced than "smash smash smash" gives them headaches.

But of course, when the Eldar forces face another universe, they're sudenly all hypersonic and are uber masters of close cobat and their ranged weapons can kill everything and anything at range.

But can't defeat a IG platoon with Ogryns, wich make orks look genious, have little armor and whitout fancy weapons or training. Weeeee.

[puppyavenger]

The Exalted vs WH40K was fun. Took a while to pound "Perfect Defense means IT DOES NOT WORK PERIOD" into it, but I remember someone worked out a way to get around Perfect Diplomancy, which was interesting.

yep, Hiveminds do have a use.

[Penguinizer]

And let's not forget the 'Nid fluff. Even the smallest fleets containing millions of beasts, each, either, spitting bugs that can burrow through space-marine armor. Or can tear through it. That, and the fact that they can block most psychic powers. And can still charge into battle while missing half a body. And, that they double about every 2.5 days in number.

That was probably in-accurate though.

[Darke]

lasgun vs titan?


although it probably has no importance in this topic. in the new ork codex there is a quote from an eldar philosopher saying that he/she envies the orks simplicity.

I will try to write down the quote asap.

also, If any universe was to altogether put aside remove their differences and work together against any enemy of not so much working togetherness, they will win.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And let's not forget the 'Nid fluff. Even the smallest fleets containing millions of beasts, each, either, spitting bugs that can burrow through space-marine armor. Or can tear through it. That, and the fact that they can block most psychic powers. And can still charge into battle while missing half a body. And, that they double about every 2.5 days in number.

That was probably in-accurate though.

No...thats actually about right. Most of it never comes up in the table-top game. Not enough time to respawn more units, you never play AS the entire hive fleet just a portion (and even then, if your not outnumbering the enemy by at least 2/1 you might be doing something wrong), and those spitting bugs are one of the more....nasty bio-weapons that the Tyranids have.


...The blocking most psychic power is just the Shadow preventing Warp travel and communication though. Anybody who claims otherwise is a filthy 'nid-hater.:smalltongue:

[WNxHasoroth]

WH40k fluff is self contradictory many times.

For example, there is fluff in where regular guys with regular swords beat the crap out of a grey knight, when grey knights are suposed to have the best power armor of all backed up by pshychic powers.

Regular Medieval Knights backed and mutated by the warp who killed one Grey Knight.

Then there is WH40K fluff that regular gaurdsmen with regular lasguns can shoot down titans, when lasguns have trouble killing anything tougher than another guardsmen.

Fact, Lasguns are man killers. Where did you get this titan killing story?

And here's my favorite:
No problem. We showed them skinny Eldar. Come on lads, says I, we're gonna go over there and bury them in their own holes, no worries. There was no worries about cover, 'cos there wasn't any cover. No worries about timing, 'cos us lads were first in. Easy as breakfast.

+++ Sergeant-Ogryn Graxugg, only survivor of an entire platoon +++

So this shows a IG platoon beated the crap out of an Eldar force. Ok, they still have only 1 survivor, but still, it means:

1-The Eldar were slow enough to be caught on by Ogryns, wich have no speed enanchments whatsoever. So the Eldar aren't that fast.

2-The Eldar weapons failed to kill a sizeable amount of Ogryns before entering melee. Whitout any cover I may add.

3-The Eldar failed to best the Ogryns in close combat. And we're talking Ogryns here, to who any strategy more advaced than "smash smash smash" gives them headaches.

But of course, when the Eldar forces face another universe, they're sudenly all hypersonic and are uber masters of close cobat and their ranged weapons can kill everything and anything at range.

You have no idea what Eldar force they fought, apart from the fact that there were Eldar, they slaughtered a platoon of Ogryn (look at a picture of these guys) and left only one survivor.

But can't defeat a IG platoon with Ogryns, wich make orks look genious, have little armor and whitout fancy weapons or training. Weeeee.

You really should be banned about talking 40k, unless perhaps English isn't your first language. You'll get some excuse there.

[Thangorodrim]

Why? A simple reason: WH40k factions were never meant to enter a versus thread. They have a badass/awesome level dialed up to 234, and the multiplied by a number the current world pinball champion would kill to attain.


Utter nonsense, there are any number of universes that could smash 40k.


Well the selected faction of the WH40k universe is proclaimed the winner in a "Simple. Y faction wins" post

This is exactly what happens in every other versus, here and everywhere else on the internet I'd imagine, 40k fans aren't sole traders in baseless bull**** by any means.


the other competitor can never hope to equal the sheer amount of tech and forces the WH40k faction has. So, there's a few options:

I'm really sorry, but your experience of science fiction and everything else must be really tiny.


(Example: Eldar monomolecular disk shooters are crappy in the game itself.

How is this any sort of argument ? Christ, a burst of lasgun fire can superheat someones armour and make their head explode, but ingame lasguns are referred to as flashlights!

Context is important y'know!


Or, you can pit a universe with a significant technological edge, such as the Honorverse, against the Imperium.

*snigger* What, you mean "our power generation is puny and multi-megaton attacks stress us out" Honorverse ?

I doubt they'd ever get hit by any 40k torpedo strike except the Eldars, but they'd get crunched.


However, I do indeed acknowledge that zealots have leg enhancements

Really pretty yellow ones.


The Yamato gun is confirmed to do a 14 digit nuke blast.

My hairy arse it is, unless someones dug up a source that tells us how strong the nuke the Yamato cannon uses is.


I think game mechanics describe general power/toughness.

Game mechanics are "okay" perhaps for reasonable approximations of information, i.e. Protoss shields stop X type of damage, let through Y, or that Zerg and Terran infantry don't possess reflexive dilatory responses, or visual filtering that can stop them getting blinded by bright flares.



If we get the godlikes and the deus ex machina's. But that is what marvel is all about so I think it's a fair result.

An interesting definition of the Marvel comics universe, although simply detonating a few multi-gigation warhead strikes, or a virus bomb or two would do for the majority of Marvel earth nicely. :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:


He grew to the opinion that 4 Solars could take the IoM though,

I find that a little doubtful given that I've seen quoted the amount of energy that a Solar's reserves might contain, and it was about 20kilotons.

The Imperium has laid waste to planets to take out individuals before. :smallwink:


Once again, I must say that the Replicators from Stargate: SG1 beat most factions from WH40K, simply because the writers gave them the No Limits Fallacy.

I seem to recall brute force dealing with the Replicators quite handily several times, given sufficient time and an intelligent plan, they'd probably be quite unstoppable, (they are almost von neumann machines after all). In the barely industrialised Stargate setting, its not surprising they did so well.

Handy that the ancients exist, a race whose very existence seems to have been built around being plot devices and/or building them.


For example, there is fluff in where regular guys with regular swords beat the crap out of a grey knight, when grey knights are suposed to have the best power armor of all backed up by pshychic powers.

I doubt you've even read that specific segment, so forgive me if I laugh mockingly at your take on the situation.

Bwahahahahaha!



Then there is WH40K fluff that regular gaurdsmen with regular lasguns can shoot down titans, when lasguns have trouble killing anything tougher than another guardsmen.

Yeah, I strongly suspect you are talking crap here, since its considered amazing that a tank formation manages to take out a titan, never mind a bunch of guardsmen with small arms.



1-The Eldar were slow enough to be caught on by Ogryns, wich have no speed enanchments whatsoever. So the Eldar aren't that fast.


Do you have any idea of the context of the engagement ?

Meh, why do I bother ?


2-The Eldar weapons failed to kill a sizeable amount of Ogryns before entering melee. Whitout any cover I may add.

How do you know ? this is a Platoon of Ogryns!


3-The Eldar failed to best the Ogryns in close combat. And we're talking Ogryns here, to who any strategy more advaced than "smash smash smash" gives them headaches.

Let me give a slightly more reasoned appraisal of Ogryns.

We are talking Ogryns here, with 20mm automatic cannons, who are stronger than Orks, bigger than space marines, and who have in past examples dragged 40 ton APC's, thats on Ogryn, dragging a freaking overturned armoured vehicle.


But of course, when the Eldar forces face another universe, they're sudenly all hypersonic and are uber masters of close cobat and their ranged weapons can kill everything and anything at range.

I can tell you are still butthurt from that Protoss vs eldar thread, but you are yet again misrepresenting the argument against you.

I'm glad you've finally decided that hypersonic is a real term though, welcome to 30 years ago. :smallwink:


You really should be banned about talking 40k, unless perhaps English isn't your first language. You'll get some excuse there.

My faith in the denizens of this forum is restored by you my friend.

[LordVader]

Whoever said Guardsmen with lasguns can kill Titans should never be allowed to talk about 40k ever again. Ever.


Also, warpblades have been proven to be able to cut through power armor. So if these knights are mutated by Chaos, it stands to reason that they have Chaos blades among them, and chaos blades can cut through power armor.

[Thangorodrim]

Whoever said Guardsmen with lasguns can kill Titans should never be allowed to talk about 40k ever again. Ever.


Also, warpblades have been proven to be able to cut through power armor. So if these knights are mutated by Chaos, it stands to reason that they have Chaos blades among them, and chaos blades can cut through power armor.


Hilariously, an old man with a walking stick beats the **** out of IIRC a Grey Knight Terminator (he's a chaos champion) while they are on that planet, the King of these Medieval level folks is a gigantic mutant dude, and many others of his court are also chaotically tainted.

Heh, from what I remember of that little scenario it was also fairly funny, with armoured knights and their barded Xeno-mounts getting physically hurled through the air by the marines while they were being slaughtered.

[Oslecamo]

Butthurted? Unlike you, Thangoridrim, I have real life to worry about, and discussing with people as you is mostly a waste of time, mainly because you can't make a coment whitout insulting someone.

But well, since other people asked so nicely:


When the Titan walks, only the dead have no fear. The brave warrior faces his fear and the Titan, and kills the enemies of the Great Brother-Warrior Horus. The Titan's steps shake the land beneath our feet, lightning is in its veins, and the sun is in its heart. The shadow of the Titan weighs upon our hearts, yet we fight against it. My knife and my gun-of-light will conquer, and the Titan's death scream will be my prayer, for my weapons shine with courage.

+++ J'blann Threekiller, Tiger Lizards (12th/23rd Davin Regiment) +++

Once seen in battle, you never forget a Titan: the shaking of the land beneath your feet; the sound of its guns; the lightning-smell of its passing. But when you look at your comrades remember that they have the power to kill the monster. And remember this: the Titan's crew knows you have the power to kill them.

Now english may not be my primary language, but I'm very sure the above bolded phrase implies titans can be taken down by IG infantry.

[sikyon]

The Yamato gun is confirmed to do a 14 digit nuke blast. If you can shrug that, you're bigger than Silver age Supes. Sure, it's cheesy, but it's a good exmaple.

When the heck did this happen.

Also, 14 digits doesn't actually mean anything.

[Zenos]

Butthurted? Unlike you, Thangoridrim, I have real life to worry about, and discussing with people as you is mostly a waste of time, mainly because you can't make a coment whitout insulting someone.

But well, since other people asked so nicely:


When the Titan walks, only the dead have no fear. The brave warrior faces his fear and the Titan, and kills the enemies of the Great Brother-Warrior Horus. The Titan's steps shake the land beneath our feet, lightning is in its veins, and the sun is in its heart. The shadow of the Titan weighs upon our hearts, yet we fight against it. My knife and my gun-of-light will conquer, and the Titan's death scream will be my prayer, for my weapons shine with courage.

+++ J'blann Threekiller, Tiger Lizards (12th/23rd Davin Regiment) +++

Once seen in battle, you never forget a Titan: the shaking of the land beneath your feet; the sound of its guns; the lightning-smell of its passing. But when you look at your comrades remember that they have the power to kill the monster. And remember this: the Titan's crew knows you have the power to kill them.

Now english may not be my primary language, but I'm very sure the above bolded phrase implies titans can be taken down by IG infantry.

It's propaganda, they try to make the foolish guardsmen think they can beat the Titans themselves.

[sikyon]

Butthurted? Unlike you, Thangoridrim, I have real life to worry about, and discussing with people as you is mostly a waste of time, mainly because you can't make a coment whitout insulting someone.

But well, since other people asked so nicely:


When the Titan walks, only the dead have no fear. The brave warrior faces his fear and the Titan, and kills the enemies of the Great Brother-Warrior Horus. The Titan's steps shake the land beneath our feet, lightning is in its veins, and the sun is in its heart. The shadow of the Titan weighs upon our hearts, yet we fight against it. My knife and my gun-of-light will conquer, and the Titan's death scream will be my prayer, for my weapons shine with courage.

+++ J'blann Threekiller, Tiger Lizards (12th/23rd Davin Regiment) +++

Once seen in battle, you never forget a Titan: the shaking of the land beneath your feet; the sound of its guns; the lightning-smell of its passing. But when you look at your comrades remember that they have the power to kill the monster. And remember this: the Titan's crew knows you have the power to kill them.

Now english may not be my primary language, but I'm very sure the above bolded phrase implies titans can be taken down by IG infantry.

That somewhat smells like propaganda to me. Also, in theory you can arm Guardsmen with demolition bombs, have wave after wave of human bodies run into throwing range of the titan and hurl tons of explosives at its legs and hope that it becomes disabled.

Oh wait, that sounds exactly like an IG strategy. Inexhaustible waves of human flesh backed by a commisar's boltgpistol.

Edit: If you want to field a horde army, your actual best choice is probably IG over even tyranid or orks.

[Zenos]

That somewhat smells like propaganda to me. Also, in theory you can arm Guardsmen with demolition bombs, have wave after wave of human bodies run into throwing range of the titan and hurl tons of explosives at its legs and hope that it becomes disabled.

Oh wait, that sounds exactly like an IG strategy. Inexhaustible waves of human flesh backed by a commisar's boltgpistol.

Edit: If you want to field a horde army, your actual best choice is probably IG over even tyranid or orks.

Because they only cost 6 points each, and you can have 55 of them in a single Troops choice (if you count platoon leader and his command section).

[Oslecamo]

If the titans can be swarmed over by humans whitout genetic modifications and uber armor, then they are not that great.

And who says it is not the other way around in propaganda? Who say the adeptus mechanicus aren't the ones making lots of publicity to the Titan power so they will sell more of them and get more money to their researches?

[Zenos]

If the titans can be swarmed over by humans whitout genetic modifications and uber armor, then they are not that great.

And who says it is not the other way around in propaganda? Who say the adeptus mechanicus aren't the ones making lots of publicity to the Titan power so they will sell more of them and get more money to their researches?

I doubt they get much money for building titans...

I guess it is simply that the guardsmen are supposed to demolition charge the Titans feet, then swarm in and overwhelm the Titan crew in close combat. Far better to use a baneblade.

[BRC]

The problem is that often these threads are "If the Entire Imperium of Man fought X"
Warhammer 40k is often not nearly that high powered in terms of it's fiction. What would be better would be somthing more along the lines of "If a regiment of Imperial Guard fought X" or "A group of space marines fought X". Example
Bad W40K vs thread: IoM Vs Dune universe
Good w40k vs thread: regiment of Catchan troops vs an equal number of Fremen.
The second is much lower powered and has clearly defined limits, they can't say pull out trump cards and it dosn't get into a game of "My numbers are bigger then your numbers".

[Tengu]

It's propaganda, they try to make the foolish guardsmen think they can beat the Titans themselves.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the WH40K fluff was propaganda.

[Oslecamo]

I doubt they get much money for building titans...

I guess it is simply that the guardsmen are supposed to demolition charge the Titans feet, then swarm in and overwhelm the Titan crew in close combat. Far better to use a baneblade.

Actually I would vote in the guardsmen. Titan crews can't really see very well the terrain behind them, so in thery a group of guardsmen can hide themselves in the ground, wait for the titan to approach, get out of their hideouts, blow open a hole with the demolition charges and swarm in.

Baneblades are rare and expensive for what I remember. IG demolition teams are not.

[Zenos]

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the WH40K fluff was propaganda.

If all of the WH40k stuff was propaganda that would mean the entire universe was entirely different. Maybe it would be, say, a palce where the IoM realy was a democracy and the Emperor was ruling a society who would welcome Xenos with open arms if they wanted to join?

[Zenos]

Actually I would vote in the guardsmen. Titan crews can't really see very well the terrain behind them, so in thery a group of guardsmen can hide themselves in the ground, wait for the titan to approach, get out of their hideouts, blow open a hole with the demolition charges and swarm in.

Baneblades are rare and expensive for what I remember. IG demolition teams are not.

Apart from the fact the titan might accidentaly trample the guardsmen, the idea sounds good.

[sikyon]

If the titans can be swarmed over by humans whitout genetic modifications and uber armor, then they are not that great.

And who says it is not the other way around in propaganda? Who say the adeptus mechanicus aren't the ones making lots of publicity to the Titan power so they will sell more of them and get more money to their researches?

Normal Humans can swarm over a tank and plant charges to destroy it too. Titans are not designed to destroy legions of infantry, they are designed to deal with enemy armor, bases and can even trade blows with starships. You're basically saying "oh look I can swarm over a machine gun tank destroyer with wave after wave of human bodies, therefore it can't be that great" No, it's not that great with dealing with people. You can even say "oh look I can swarm over a machine gun emplacement with waves and waves of human bodies until the machine gun runs out of ammo or overheats. Machine guns can't be that great. Heck, in nature honey bees try and defend their nests against africanized bees by enveloping the invading bees and trying to cook them alive under their sheer body heat.

Anything can be swarmed over with the appropriate weapons/tactics.

[comicshorse]

Given recent events with 'Dark Heresy' and it seems obvious the one thing WH40K doesn't stand a chance against is Games Workshop.

[Tengu]

If all of the WH40k stuff was propaganda that would mean the entire universe was entirely different. Maybe it would be, say, a palce where the IoM realy was a democracy and the Emperor was ruling a society who would welcome Xenos with open arms if they wanted to join?

More than the society I mean the scale and power of the actual stuff - maybe in actuality bolters are just pumped-up machine guns, not grenade launchers with auto fire, maybe the armor is not so impenetrable after all, maybe the battles are actually on a much smaller scale? Maybe... it's actually much closer to the rules of the miniature game?

Oh, and it's not my idea. Someone else came with it on these forums before me.

[Zenos]

More than the society I mean the scale and power of the actual stuff - maybe in actuality bolters are just pumped-up machine guns, not grenade launchers with auto fire, maybe the armor is not so impenetrable after all, maybe the battles are actually on a much smaller scale? Maybe... it's actually much closer to the rules of the miniature game?

Oh, and it's not my idea. Someone else came with it on these forums before me.

Nah, we'll go with the warhammer 40k fluff.

[Rutee]

Nah, we'll go with the warhammer 40k fluff.

If it's all written from an IC perspective, Tengu's view is just as valid as yours.

(If anyone out there was silleh enough to get into arguments on the 'reality' of the oWoD, I think we can all get a good laugh right about now)

[Thangorodrim]

Butthurted? Unlike you, Thangoridrim, I have real life to worry about, and discussing with people as you is mostly a waste of time, mainly because you can't make a coment whitout insulting someone.

Oh get over yourself.

As for your quote, I thought I'd dig up your source for you, since you weren't particularly bothered.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Imperial_Guard

Ignoring the obvious bravado/chest beating aspect of the quote, it contains no reliable information at all.

I should point out that the Imperial Guard have lots of anti-titan weaponry though, including some mounted on superheavy tanks that can take their arms off etc.

So while your ludicrous comment that IG with lasguns can overrun titans is a load of rubbish, I'm perfectly willing to agree with you (not concede,since I would never contested the damn issue) that the Imperial Guard can take out titans.



And who says it is not the other way around in propaganda? Who say the adeptus mechanicus aren't the ones making lots of publicity to the Titan power so they will sell more of them and get more money to their researches?

Because even in the setting you describe Titans are monstrous kickers of arse well beyond any sensible number of Imperial guard ?

In fact, I doubt that guy is even a member of the Imperial Guard. If my memory doesn't fail me, Davin is a world pacified/reabsorbed during the Great Crusade, and where Horus was originally tainted by Chaos.

Which means your quote is refering to a member of the Imperial Army, not that this means anything in itself, but the source of the quote could originallybe one of the Titan Legions era games, which also portrayed Titans as unfeasible targets for your average IG infantry formation. Even if it isn't, my point still stands, In 40k, the infantry who take down Titans tend to be marine shock troops getting inside its legs and planting charges. (or have the support of armoured vehicles, and being a rock hard guy like Forrix of the Iron Warriors)

:smallsmile:

This isn't to say that Titans can't be swarmed, Hive Fleet Behemoth managed it on Macragge, although Macragge has been retconned to include Bio-titans.

But then, the Nid's would kick the ass of Starcraft as well :smallbiggrin: *poke ,poke*


I wouldn't be surprised if most of the WH40K fluff was propaganda.

I wouldn't go as far to say "most", and certainly that section isn't propaganda (although the latter part probably is, it is an entirely seperate quote), its just a bloke from a feral world trying to convince himself that the 60 meter tall death machine isn't going to casually incinerate his regiment on its way to taking out his supporting heavy armour!



Also, 14 digits doesn't actually mean anything.

In addition "nukes" isn't a unit of measurement without context.


Given recent events with 'Dark Heresy' and it seems obvious the one thing WH40K doesn't stand a chance against is Games Workshop.

They do seem to be trying their best to fail sometimes.


If it's all written from an IC perspective, Tengu's view is just as valid as yours.

To be frank, only an idiot would think that a bloke talking about his "gun of light" and "great brother warrior horus " is supposed to be anything other than a feral world dude trying not to **** himself at the giant metal death machines stomping around.

I think you need to try and be a touch more objective with your analysis of things :smallwink:

[Rutee]

To be frank, only an idiot would think that a bloke talking about his "gun of light" and "great brother warrior horus " is supposed to be anything other than a feral world dude trying not to **** himself at the giant metal death machines stomping around.

I think you need to try and be a touch more objective with your analysis of things
Passive Aggressiveness suits you; Incidentally, YOU telling me to be more objective strikes me as ridiculous.

Someone else has already quoted passages from WH40k novels, which I imagine are primary fluff sources, that make it very, very clear that like Middle Earth, people very rarely have a proper, objective look at something's power.

Frankly, it's not that unbelievable for every side to talk up their own power.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Passive Aggressiveness suits you; Incidentally, YOU telling me to be more objective strikes me as ridiculous.

Someone else has already quoted passages from WH40k novels, which I imagine are primary fluff sources, that make it very, very clear that like Middle Earth, people very rarely have a proper, objective look at something's power.

Frankly, it's not that unbelievable for every side to talk up their own power.

Hehe, how do you explain the ones that can't talk up their own power then? The 'nids (and to a lesser degree Necrons and so forth) don't communicate or talk about themselves so the ridiculous strength told about comes entirely from their enemies. 'Course that doesn't mean it still couldn't be propaganda (the idea tickles me immensely) but it'd be in favor of making dem horrible Xenos seem all de worse all of dem extreme measures seem proper, ya?



And I think he was talking to Oslecamo about being objective, not you. Could be wrong of course.

[Rutee]

Hehe, how do you explain the ones that can't talk up their own power then? The 'nids (and to a lesser degree Necrons and so forth) don't communicate or talk about themselves so the ridiculous strength told about comes entirely from their enemies. 'Course that doesn't mean it still couldn't be propaganda (the idea tickles me immensely) but it'd be in favor of making dem horrible Xenos seem all de worse all of dem extreme measures seem proper, ya?
Well, if they're written from an IC perspective, it'd be the characters' perceptions of the Xenos, not a proper, uncolored look at their power.




And I think he was talking to Oslecamo about being objective, not you. Could be wrong of course.

As he said it directly after a quote to me.. doubtful.

[LordVader]

If the titans can be swarmed over by humans whitout genetic modifications and uber armor, then they are not that great.

And who says it is not the other way around in propaganda? Who say the adeptus mechanicus aren't the ones making lots of publicity to the Titan power so they will sell more of them and get more money to their researches?

If tanks unsupported by infantry can easily be trapped and destroyed by enemy infantry in an urban environment, they're not that great.

You see the problem with your line of reasoning here?

And Rutee, even the Space Wolf books, which, in my opinion, underpower Marines compared to most other novels, call the bolters explosive. In fact, let me quote it.
"and burying itself in the target before exploding".

Satisfied?

[Mephisto]

The WH40K universe runs on the power of fanboys. It is known.

[Thangorodrim]

Passive Aggressiveness suits you; Incidentally, YOU telling me to be more objective strikes me as ridiculous.

I base my opinions on facts, not consensus or popularity.

I do enjoy the 40k universe though, and certainly don't claim to be free of bias, you did however neatly avoid addressing the focus of my comment though.


Someone else has already quoted passages from WH40k novels, which I imagine are primary fluff sources, that make it very, very clear that like Middle Earth, people very rarely have a proper, objective look at something's power.

I wouldn't even start arguing that everything is consistent in any science fiction setting, but I also wouldn't take your word as gospel on this, for obvious reasons. I mean, you seriously think a bloke is considering taking on a titan with a knife and pistol is worth taking seriously, because everyone can have an opinion on an IC piece ?

Don't be daft.


Frankly, it's not that unbelievable for every side to talk up their own power.

Did it escape your notice that he's doing BOTH ? The whole thing is basically a vehicle for a motivational speech!

Besides, we know what the actual Imperial propaganda is, the Uplifting Primer shows it nicely, Orks have really frail muscles, Nids fall apart, eldar are fragile and have poor tech, and the Tau use clubs and are primitive savages.

[Mr. Scaly]

On the subject of Titans, I don't think they're as great as everyone says they are. They're really big, yes. They've got enough firepower to take on space forces, sure. But really...they're disasters waiting to happen.
Top heavy, slow, and too focussed on armour and fortifications. A ground force with enough intelligence would be able to take one out easily enough.

[Zenos]

On the subject of Titans, I don't think they're as great as everyone says they are. They're really big, yes. They've got enough firepower to take on space forces, sure. But really...they're disasters waiting to happen.
Top heavy, slow, and too focussed on armour and fortifications. A ground force with enough intelligence would be able to take one out easily enough.

If physics entered a science fantasy realm like WH40k many such universes would be utterly destroyed by the weight of RL physics.

[Rutee]

If physics entered a science fantasy realm like WH40k many such universes would be utterly destroyed by the weight of RL physics.

This is absolutely true. I just don't see why WH40k Fanboys feel the need to defend WH40k from physics. It's science fiction. None of it works in the real world, and that's just fine and dandy. Keeps the story interesting, and that's what matters.

[Zenos]

This is absolutely true. I just don't see why WH40k Fanboys feel the need to defend WH40k from physics. It's science fiction. None of it works in the real world, and that's just fine and dandy. Keeps the story interesting, and that's what matters.

Wow, we're agreeing for once.

[LordVader]

On the subject of Titans, I don't think they're as great as everyone says they are. They're really big, yes. They've got enough firepower to take on space forces, sure. But really...they're disasters waiting to happen.
Top heavy, slow, and too focussed on armour and fortifications. A ground force with enough intelligence would be able to take one out easily enough.

Titans can take on space vehicles? I hadn't heard that one before. I don't think their weapons have the range for that...:smallconfused:
And of course Titans have weaknesses, obvious ones, which is why they have to be used as combined-arms forces. The only mass attack by solely Titans (that I know of) was on Armageddon, where they were ordered out to attack against their will and annihilated.

40k space combat also is, ironically enough, somewhat more "realistic" than many Sci-Fi shows out there, BSG excepted. For the most part, Imperium warships don't have uber-1337 lasers (except for lances) they use shells and torpedoes.

[Oslecamo]

I base my opinions on facts, not consensus or popularity.


Impressive. I never tought that you witnessed a Wh40K conflict firsthand. How exactly did you survived? Did you bring photos? Movies? Maybe some trophy? Anything that would qualify as fact besides your word?

Or are you just like to decide that whatever suits you is fact and everything else is either propaganda or made up?

[Illiterate Scribe]

If I now shout 'NAZI' repeatedly, can we get to the end of the cycle of flaming and get back to the subject? :smalltongue:

Also, listen to Bloodyredcommie - he speaks the truth. For all we know, our universe could stomp all over Exalted with +Aleph-1 nega-swords of liar paradox that shoot nukes, but that doesn't say anything about our power level (hint:it's only around 8500).

[Poison_Fish]

If I now shout 'NAZI' repeatedly, can we get to the end of the cycle of flaming and get back to the subject? :smalltongue:

Also, listen to Bloodyredcommie - he speaks the truth. For all we know, our universe could stomp all over Exalted with +Aleph-1 nega-swords of liar paradox that shoot nukes, but that doesn't say anything about our power level (hint:it's only around 8500).

But then by the trope of RPG's, the main characters come in and wipe the floor with you. Or get beaten back only come in stronger.

By the way, know a good scouter repair place? Mine keeps breaking.

[Thangorodrim]

Impressive. I never tought that you witnessed a Wh40K conflict firsthand. How exactly did you survived? Did you bring photos? Movies? Maybe some trophy? Anything that would qualify as fact besides your word?

Or are you just like to decide that whatever suits you is fact and everything else is either propaganda or made up?

You daft bugger, simply by making it a topic of discussion you have to accept that the universe "works" as is, and that means you can use information given to create an idea of what things are capable of.

If you simply refuse to do this, or get all upset because the position you've chosen to be an advocate for doesn't have such information and I'm being all sarcastic when you claim superior firepower/capabilities/whatever based on your gut feeling alone, what the spaghetti monster says/whatever, then you'll continue getting short shrift from me.

We have information given as to the state of "reality" in 40k, its sometimes contradictory, or it might be that it doesn't really adhere to our knowledge of a certain area of science, but once you start saying "but modern tanks can't do that" or "our lasers can't do that, so the Eldars must suck as well" then you venture into "rocks fall, everybody dies" levels of pointlessness.

Its a big cop-out in other words, and I'm not stunned that you'd bring it up.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Oh, bomb defusal mission - not successful. :smallfrown:

However:


But then by the trope of RPG's, the main characters come in and wipe the floor with you. Or get beaten back only come in stronger.

By the way, know a good scouter repair place? Mine keeps breaking.

But we're us! Humans are special! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial)

Also, I would recommend you a new shop, but it doesn't make a bit of difference, guys. the balls are inert.

[Rutee]

Oh, bomb defusal mission - not successful. :smallfrown:

However:



But we're us! Humans are special! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial)

Also, I would recommend you a new shop, but it doesn't make a bit of difference, guys. the balls are inert.

Yeah, but Exalted are superhuman humans still :P

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I base my opinions on facts, not consensus or popularity.
So, uh, your opinion of 40K vs. Middle Earth is that Orlando Bloom would step on the miniatures and crush them?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yeah, but Exalted are superhuman humans still :P

Yeah, but we'd win regardless, because we're us. Duh. Not even perfect invulnerability can protect you from the power of narrative causality and the plot! :smalltongue:


So, uh, your opinion of 40K vs. Middle Earth is that Orlando Bloom would step on the miniatures and crush them?

Yeah, but he'd hurt himself in the process - they're exceptionally pointy. Not as bad as lego bricks, though.

That gives me an idea - WH40K vs. Lego Space Police. Fight!

[Rutee]

Yeah, but we'd win regardless, because we're us. Duh. Not even perfect invulnerability can protect you from the power of narrative causality and the plot! :smalltongue:

So it's Rule of Cool and Fantasy Kitchen Sink vs. Entrenched Traditions of Plot.

That'd be pretty awesome.

[Thangorodrim]

So, uh, your opinion of 40K vs. Middle Earth is that Orlando Bloom would step on the miniatures and crush them?

Oh the lulz!

Please, you can't even make a joke that makes sense, Orlando bloom is a portrayal of Legolas, just as miniatures are a portrayal of 40k stuff.

Orlando bloom could certainly crush some mini's quite nicely, although he'd better wear some decent shoes, those plastic gretchen are sharp.

Legolas Greenleaf on the other hand couldn't, because he's a fictional character.

Unless of course we are talking about them with regards Suspension of Disbelief, and in a scenario of our own choosing.

You ****ing idiot :smallsmile:

[Illiterate Scribe]

So it's Rule of Cool and Fantasy Kitchen Sink vs. Entrenched Traditions of Plot.

That'd be pretty awesome.

I would have said that the plot wins out, but realist fiction and that which comes after it makes it a little less certain. It would, however, lead to near infinite quoting from TVTropesWiki.


Oh the lulz!
...
You ****ing idiot :smallsmile:

Stop corrupting L O L (which stands for 'laugh. out. loud'). Also, mixed messages much?

EDIT OT:
hey illetiret, are u guna make my avatar?

The answer may succinctly be summed up with two words.

'aargh exams'.

Soon, I hope :smallfrown:.

[sune]

hey illetiret, are u guna make my avatar?

[Verruckt]

The WH40K every universe runs on the power of fanboys. It is known.

Fixed. If it weren't for fanboys there would be no universes, your point is moot as it is taken to be self evident as soon as fiction enters the discussion.


Oh the lulz!

Please, you can't even make a joke that makes sense, Orlando bloom is a portrayal of Legolas, just as miniatures are a portrayal of 40k stuff.

Orlando bloom could certainly crush some mini's quite nicely, although he'd better wear some decent shoes, those plastic gretchen are sharp.

Legolas Greenleaf on the other hand couldn't, because he's a fictional character.

Unless of course we are talking about them with regards Suspension of Disbelief, and in a scenario of our own choosing.

You ****ing idiot :smallsmile:

someone please beat him with a haddock, it's called IRONY you dunce :smallmad:

[Mr. Scaly]

Titans can take on space vehicles? I hadn't heard that one before. I don't think their weapons have the range for that...:smallconfused:
And of course Titans have weaknesses, obvious ones, which is why they have to be used as combined-arms forces. The only mass attack by solely Titans (that I know of) was on Armageddon, where they were ordered out to attack against their will and annihilated.

40k space combat also is, ironically enough, somewhat more "realistic" than many Sci-Fi shows out there, BSG excepted. For the most part, Imperium warships don't have uber-1337 lasers (except for lances) they use shells and torpedoes.

Heh. My bad on that. I was rooting through Starcraft fluff and it describes the Thor unit as having armour and weapons that wouldn't be amiss on a battlecruiser.

I was just a bit concerned, since most of the Warhammer vs threads I've seen Titans were held up as 'ultimate weapons of death that trump all under the might of their guns TM'.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Please, you can't even make a joke that makes sense, Orlando [B]loom is a portrayal of Legolas, just as miniatures are a portrayal of 40k stuff.
Orlando Bloom is a beautiful portrayal, though isn't he? Dreamy!


Orlando [B]loom could certainly crush some mini's quite nicely, although he'd better wear some decent shoes, those plastic gretchen are sharp.
Sharp is a subjective term. We're keeping this debate to facts, mister.



Legolas Greenleaf on the other hand couldn't, because he's a fictional character.
A good point. Facts to facts, then. LotR outnumbers 40K, and has a lot more hardbacks for miniature crushing. Additionally, when the two books are rammed in to each other enough, the high-class LotR printings not only very likely outnumber the 40K novelizations, but they're much more likely to be well-bound, often being some silly "Collector's Edition" rather than 6.95 genre-fiction paperbacks. This is just considering LotR, not the whole of the Middle Earth universe, which also contains the sizable Silmarillion.


Unless of course we are talking about them with regards [to] Suspension of Disbelief, and in a scenario of our own choosing.
My scenario is Orlando Bloom stepping on some IG miniatures. I can suspend my disbelief enough to believe a hollywood actour wastes his time crushing wargaming figurines.


You ****ing idiot :smallsmile:
If you're going to call me names, you at least need to put in a big smile to make it seem nice, a "smallsmile" won't fool me, no sir.

[Rutee]

Fixed. If it weren't for fanboys there would be no universes, your point is moot as it is taken to be self evident as soon as fiction enters the discussion.

Well.. no, that's pretty silly. Fanboys are generally not responsible for the creation of fiction. At least not as we know it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Well.. no, that's pretty silly. Fanboys are generally not responsible for the creation of fiction. At least not as we know it.

I warned you, Rutee. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningTheAsylum)

[Verruckt]

Well.. no, that's pretty silly. Fanboys are generally not responsible for the creation of fiction. At least not as we know it.

Correct, I haven't stated myself clearly, fanboys are responsible for sustaining fiction, hence powered by fanboys being a redundant statement.

on an entirely unrelated note, you made me think of fanfics, now i may have to kill you.

[Thangorodrim]

Orlando Bloom is a beautiful portrayal, though isn't he? Dreamy!

I don't go for guys, sorry :smallwink:


Sharp is a subjective term. We're keeping this debate to facts, mister.

Certainly, although I don't feel I need to quantify it, common sense is part of the entire concept.


A good point. Facts to facts, then. LotR outnumbers 40K, and has a lot more hardbacks for miniature crushing. Additionally, when the two books are rammed in to each other enough, the high-class LotR printings not only very likely outnumber the 40K novelizations, but they're much more likely to be well-bound, often being some silly "Collector's Edition" rather than 6.95 genre-fiction paperbacks. This is just considering LotR, not the whole of the Middle Earth universe, which also contains the sizable Silmarillion.


interesting attempt at parody, although if you want to troll, I suggest you try it straight, debating with the logic some people have displayed in the dreaded 40k threads is a much easier way to irritate me.


My scenario is Orlando Bloom stepping on some IG miniatures. I can suspend my disbelief enough to believe a hollywood actour wastes his time crushing wargaming figurines.


As I mentioned, the physical possibility of it is something I can accept.

Its just not of much interest to me.

Want to try again with another snarky comment, perhaps with a little more thought behind it so you don't have to spin it off like this ?


If you're going to call me names, you at least need to put in a big smile to make it seem nice, a "smallsmile" won't fool me, no sir.

Its not what I'd describe as name calling, I'm going to go with "honest appraisal of your capacity, based on your posts in this thread".


Well.. no, that's pretty silly. Fanboys are generally not responsible for the creation of fiction. At least not as we know it.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "fanboy". If used as a perjorative I might agree with this comment.

[Rutee]

on an entirely unrelated note, you made me think of fanfics, now i may have to kill you.
If you must kill me, I demand that you first ponder the ramifications of Phoenix Wright x Edgeworth. Or Spock x Kirk.

[Illiterate Scribe]

If you must kill me, I demand that you first ponder the ramifications of Phoenix Wright x Edgeworth.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/images/ruinedforeverfinal.png

[Verruckt]

I don't go for guys, sorry :smallwink:

Certainly, although I don't feel I need to quantify it, common sense is part of the entire concept.

interesting attempt at parody, although if you want to troll, I suggest you try it straight, debating with the logic some people have displayed in the dreaded 40k threads is a much easier way to irritate me.

As I mentioned, the physical possibility of it is something I can accept.

Its just not of much interest to me.

Want to try again with another snarky comment, perhaps with a little more thought behind it so you don't have to spin it off like this ?

Its not what I'd describe as name calling, I'm going to go with "honest appraisal of your capacity, based on your posts in this thread".

I suppose it depends on your definition of "fanboy". If used as a perjorative I might agree with this comment.

It seems I must be rather dyslexic since I see "On Vs. WH40K threads"
as the title when it clearly must be something more like "Everyone flames Thangorodrim whilst he smugly thwarts the puny attempts to deflate his colossal ego via snarky replies and feigned ignorance of reality and meaning"

it concerns me that i could have missed so many letters...


If you must kill me, I demand that you first ponder the ramifications of Phoenix Wright x Edgeworth. Or Spock x Kirk.

snape x dumbledore x ginny x a horse.... HA!

[Illiterate Scribe]

It seems I must be rather dyslexic since I see "On Vs. WH40K threads"
as the title when it clearly must be something more like "Everyone flames Thangorodrim whilst he smugly thwarts the puny attempts to deflate his colossal ego via snarky replies and feigned ignorance of reality and meaning"

it concerns me that i could have missed so many letters...

Why don't you join our discussion of plot vs. cool vs. slashfics, instead?

It's vaguely related, at a couple of levels of distraction distant.

[Rutee]

Why don't you join our discussion of plot vs. cool vs. slashfics, instead?

It's vaguely related, at a couple of levels of distraction distant.

Oh, I'm sorry. There's no room for discussion; It's purely preference, and I'm not in the mood to enjoy myself with it the 'argument' properly :P


snape x dumbledore x ginny x a horse.... HA!
The difference being that I named the canon relationships. :smallbiggrin:

[Poison_Fish]

If you must kill me, I demand that you first ponder the ramifications of Phoenix Wright x Edgeworth. Or Spock x Kirk.

Ah, but Rutee, those are far to typical. If we are going to end up sacrificing you for crimes against humanity, it should be something far more horrifying.

[Thangorodrim]

It seems I must be rather dyslexic since I see "On Vs. WH40K threads"
as the title when it clearly must be something more like "Everyone flames Thangorodrim whilst he smugly thwarts the puny attempts to deflate his colossal ego via snarky replies and feigned ignorance of reality and meaning"

You great wuss.

As far as I can tell, your contribution consists of dancing in to make a silly comment, then getting all snarky about it.

I actually seriously addressed the point of the debate, which appears to be "our bums are hurted....stop the pain ".

But nooo, I'm an evil 40ker! Bring the mild heating of your flames!

[Illiterate Scribe]

Oh, I'm sorry. There's no room for discussion; It's purely preference, and I'm not in the mood to enjoy myself with it the 'argument' properly :P

I can eradicate every last piece of sanity you possess by deploying Tara Gillespie's My Immortal. If by argument, you mean 'total, unrestricted warfare', then it's no great leap away from the current situation.


The difference being that I named the canon relationships. :smallbiggrin:

Rowling's announcing that relationship in a conference soon.

Also, back to the topic, has anyone ever suspected the real reason why Ghazghkull and Yarrick keep leaving each other alive? There's more to it than you think ... :smalltongue: :smallamused:

[Rutee]

Ah, but Rutee, those are far to typical. If we are going to end up sacrificing you for crimes against humanity, it should be something far more horrifying.

You've got a point, but I'm afraid I'm not usually in it for the horror factor, but the interest one.

Perhaps... Mario x Luigi x Bowser?

[Illiterate Scribe]

You've got a point, but I'm afraid I'm not usually in it for the horror factor, but the interest one.

Perhaps... Mario x Luigi x Bowser?

Exists. 34'd in ages past.

[Rutee]

Exists. 34'd in ages past.

That's the whole point of Rule no. 34; It covers everything. Now if you REALLY want me to come up with some sort of horrific rule no. 35, well.. I'll give it a shot, but it'd take time :smallbiggrin:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Good sir! I do not intend to troll, you merely stated you wished to debate with opinions based upon facts. And facts I gave you. Is that not to your liking?

Perhaps you would like a debate with opinions to be based upon the decidedly non-factual and, indeed, often self-contradictory source materials, and merely made a rather severe typo to call such things facts? I assume you did not postulate that the arguments you based in works of speculative, to use the term loosely, fiction were actually based in fact? Or, shall we assume, based upon your statement concerning suspension of disbelief, we are to act as though both universes are real, and exist, simply elsewhere. We may go down this route, though it is hardly even tangentally related to "facts."

If that is the case, let us consider the nature of facts, or, rather, knowledge, as presented in much of Epistemology. In Plato's Allegory of the Cave, for instance, the basic human's "knowledge" is merely the shadows of objects carried in front of a flame, behind humanity, which their shackled bodies cannot turn to see. Because they see no real world, only the shadows on the cave wall, and cannot turn to even recognize that these are shadows in a flame, they "know" the shadows they see are the real world, and the totality of the real world. Those who see the outside world are often blinded by its brightness, and are distrusted upon re-entry into the cave. Within 40K, this may be used as a very valid reason to doubt most of the lore. Most of those cited know only the information they are given, the shadows on the wall of the cave.

Additionally, those authors describing it in their Warhammer novels describe the world of normal men, not of Philosopher Kings, who have returned to the cave with true sight, though the darkness is now foreign and strange to them. Indeed, the entire descriptions of the novel, in first person or otherwise, may be said to be the altered perception of reality of those who only see the shadows on the cave wall. When reality is shown to them, they believe, instead, the wall of the cave they have come to know as reality. Thus, their entirely reality is shaped by this view, and the events described in the novels are not, in fact, reality, in the 40K universe, but the shadows of reality seen by all parties involved. The only figures who could rightly be seen as Philosopher Kings are the Emperor of Man and perhaps the Chaos Gods, neither of whom, unlike the idyllic king of Plato's imagining, are trustworthy. They do not seek to spread, necessarily, the truths of the real world, but are rather fiercely dedicated to their own ends.

Another look at the "facts" of the 40K universe, even when suspension of disbelief brings it to the level of reality of our own universe, is the idea of skepticism. Even a minour form of skepticism, such as that expressed by Bertrand Russel or John Locke, Can anything be certain, and is anything truly objective? Orks are green, correct? Well, no. Orks are a collection of colourless molecules assembled in such a way that in certain light, to certain people, they will appear green. Similarly, armour has no doubt been mentioned as sturdy, and solid. Neither is really true. The armour is hollow, with most of it being comprised of empty space. Only electro-magnetic repulsion keeps it from collapsing in upon itself.

Furthermore, let us consider Descartes' view of reality, and that nothing which can be disconnected is real. Thus, the physical body does not truly exist; it may be rent apart without destroying the mind, or soul. The soul, and the only true reality, is the idyllic, inseperable form that somewhere, in heaven, to religious viewing, exists. In such a view, there are no facts in the 40K universe, at least none relevant. Even Psykkers deal with something which may be destroyed, while the pure mind Descartes speaks of cannot be. The brain and the psyche are not, thus, the mind.

Consider further the immense power of the Chaos Gods, with the Evil Demon Descartes describes as a question of reality. through his great power and machinations, what if a demon is shaping reality in such a way that we view it simply as reality. That demon is making you believe you are now reading this message, though, in fact, there is no message. The Chaos Gods are almost perfect for this role, fooling the whole of the 40K universe into believing that it is fighting a grand, titanic battle on a universal scale, when really the entirety of its existance amounts to two young men, sitting in a basement, discussing whose ridiculous aliens would beat up whose ridiculous aliens in that battle of titanic, universal importance.

[Rutee]

Veisu has won the thread, IMO.

[Tengu]

But right now it's like winning a war over country with 75% of its area covered in bomb shells, ruins, trenches and, for some reason, kids playing Tag while wearing those spiky WW1 German helmets.

But yes, he still wins.

[Eita]

Good sir! I do not intend to troll, you merely stated you wished to debate with opinions based upon facts. And facts I gave you. Is that not to your liking?

Perhaps you would like a debate with opinions to be based upon the decidedly non-factual and, indeed, often self-contradictory source materials, and merely made a rather severe typo to call such things facts? I assume you did not postulate that the arguments you based in works of speculative, to use the term loosely, fiction were actually based in fact? Or, shall we assume, based upon your statement concerning suspension of disbelief, we are to act as though both universes are real, and exist, simply elsewhere. We may go down this route, though it is hardly even tangentally related to "facts."

If that is the case, let us consider the nature of facts, or, rather, knowledge, as presented in much of Epistemology. In Plato's Allegory of the Cave, for instance, the basic human's "knowledge" is merely the shadows of objects carried in front of a flame, behind humanity, which their shackled bodies cannot turn to see. Because they see no real world, only the shadows on the cave wall, and cannot turn to even recognize that these are shadows in a flame, they "know" the shadows they see are the real world, and the totality of the real world. Those who see the outside world are often blinded by its brightness, and are distrusted upon re-entry into the cave. Within 40K, this may be used as a very valid reason to doubt most of the lore. Most of those cited know only the information they are given, the shadows on the wall of the cave.

Additionally, those authors describing it in their Warhammer novels describe the world of normal men, not of Philosopher Kings, who have returned to the cave with true sight, though the darkness is now foreign and strange to them. Indeed, the entire descriptions of the novel, in first person or otherwise, may be said to be the altered perception of reality of those who only see the shadows on the cave wall. When reality is shown to them, they believe, instead, the wall of the cave they have come to know as reality. Thus, their entirely reality is shaped by this view, and the events described in the novels are not, in fact, reality, in the 40K universe, but the shadows of reality seen by all parties involved. The only figures who could rightly be seen as Philosopher Kings are the Emperor of Man and perhaps the Chaos Gods, neither of whom, unlike the idyllic king of Plato's imagining, are trustworthy. They do not seek to spread, necessarily, the truths of the real world, but are rather fiercely dedicated to their own ends.

Another look at the "facts" of the 40K universe, even when suspension of disbelief brings it to the level of reality of our own universe, is the idea of skepticism. Even a minour form of skepticism, such as that expressed by Bertrand Russel or John Locke, Can anything be certain, and is anything truly objective? Orks are green, correct? Well, no. Orks are a collection of colourless molecules assembled in such a way that in certain light, to certain people, they will appear green. Similarly, armour has no doubt been mentioned as sturdy, and solid. Neither is really true. The armour is hollow, with most of it being comprised of empty space. Only electro-magnetic repulsion keeps it from collapsing in upon itself.

Furthermore, let us consider Descartes' view of reality, and that nothing which can be disconnected is real. Thus, the physical body does not truly exist; it may be rent apart without destroying the mind, or soul. The soul, and the only true reality, is the idyllic, inseperable form that somewhere, in heaven, to religious viewing, exists. In such a view, there are no facts in the 40K universe, at least none relevant. Even Psykkers deal with something which may be destroyed, while the pure mind Descartes speaks of cannot be. The brain and the psyche are not, thus, the mind.

Consider further the immense power of the Chaos Gods, with the Evil Demon Descartes describes as a question of reality. through his great power and machinations, what if a demon is shaping reality in such a way that we view it simply as reality. That demon is making you believe you are now reading this message, though, in fact, there is no message. The Chaos Gods are almost perfect for this role, fooling the whole of the 40K universe into believing that it is fighting a grand, titanic battle on a universal scale, when really the entirety of its existance amounts to two young men, sitting in a basement, discussing whose ridiculous aliens would beat up whose ridiculous aliens in that battle of titanic, universal importance.

tl;dr (Curse you Giant for your 10 character minimum).

[Verruckt]

Good sir! I do not intend to troll, you merely stated you wished to debate with opinions based upon facts. And facts I gave you. Is that not to your liking?

Perhaps you would like a debate with opinions to be based upon the decidedly non-factual and, indeed, often self-contradictory source materials, and merely made a rather severe typo to call such things facts? I assume you did not postulate that the arguments you based in works of speculative, to use the term loosely, fiction were actually based in fact? Or, shall we assume, based upon your statement concerning suspension of disbelief, we are to act as though both universes are real, and exist, simply elsewhere. We may go down this route, though it is hardly even tangentally related to "facts."

If that is the case, let us consider the nature of facts, or, rather, knowledge, as presented in much of Epistemology. In Plato's Allegory of the Cave, for instance, the basic human's "knowledge" is merely the shadows of objects carried in front of a flame, behind humanity, which their shackled bodies cannot turn to see. Because they see no real world, only the shadows on the cave wall, and cannot turn to even recognize that these are shadows in a flame, they "know" the shadows they see are the real world, and the totality of the real world. Those who see the outside world are often blinded by its brightness, and are distrusted upon re-entry into the cave. Within 40K, this may be used as a very valid reason to doubt most of the lore. Most of those cited know only the information they are given, the shadows on the wall of the cave.

Additionally, those authors describing it in their Warhammer novels describe the world of normal men, not of Philosopher Kings, who have returned to the cave with true sight, though the darkness is now foreign and strange to them. Indeed, the entire descriptions of the novel, in first person or otherwise, may be said to be the altered perception of reality of those who only see the shadows on the cave wall. When reality is shown to them, they believe, instead, the wall of the cave they have come to know as reality. Thus, their entirely reality is shaped by this view, and the events described in the novels are not, in fact, reality, in the 40K universe, but the shadows of reality seen by all parties involved. The only figures who could rightly be seen as Philosopher Kings are the Emperor of Man and perhaps the Chaos Gods, neither of whom, unlike the idyllic king of Plato's imagining, are trustworthy. They do not seek to spread, necessarily, the truths of the real world, but are rather fiercely dedicated to their own ends.

Another look at the "facts" of the 40K universe, even when suspension of disbelief brings it to the level of reality of our own universe, is the idea of skepticism. Even a minour form of skepticism, such as that expressed by Bertrand Russel or John Locke, Can anything be certain, and is anything truly objective? Orks are green, correct? Well, no. Orks are a collection of colourless molecules assembled in such a way that in certain light, to certain people, they will appear green. Similarly, armour has no doubt been mentioned as sturdy, and solid. Neither is really true. The armour is hollow, with most of it being comprised of empty space. Only electro-magnetic repulsion keeps it from collapsing in upon itself.

Furthermore, let us consider Descartes' view of reality, and that nothing which can be disconnected is real. Thus, the physical body does not truly exist; it may be rent apart without destroying the mind, or soul. The soul, and the only true reality, is the idyllic, inseperable form that somewhere, in heaven, to religious viewing, exists. In such a view, there are no facts in the 40K universe, at least none relevant. Even Psykkers deal with something which may be destroyed, while the pure mind Descartes speaks of cannot be. The brain and the psyche are not, thus, the mind.

Consider further the immense power of the Chaos Gods, with the Evil Demon Descartes describes as a question of reality. through his great power and machinations, what if a demon is shaping reality in such a way that we view it simply as reality. That demon is making you believe you are now reading this message, though, in fact, there is no message. The Chaos Gods are almost perfect for this role, fooling the whole of the 40K universe into believing that it is fighting a grand, titanic battle on a universal scale, when really the entirety of its existance amounts to two young men, sitting in a basement, discussing whose ridiculous aliens would beat up whose ridiculous aliens in that battle of titanic, universal importance.

What is your preferred form of worship, oh Lord of utter win? Truly the forces of small minded literalism have been smoten mightily in Your Name, which shall be remembered alongside Sebastian Thor and Marcharius, Malcador and Russ.

or put more succinctly, as Occam would doubtlessly prefer: Owned.

[Oslecamo]

That's more or less what I wanted to tell Thanghrudrim. Should have paid more atention on Philosophy classes.

It's not a matter if the fluff breacks the laws of reality.

It's a matter of ignoring all the fluff that doesn't suit your side of the argument, and if someone brings it up, dismiss it as completely fake, while magically the fluff you brought up is 100% correct for no other reason that you claim it is correct.

I'm anxiously waiting for Thangrodrium's resply to that beatifull post. If he doesn't reply that much the better.

[Thangorodrim]

Good sir! I do not intend to troll, you merely stated you wished to debate with opinions based upon facts. And facts I gave you. Is that not to your liking?

Didn't you read it ? Or is it SOP for you to just post random bull**** whenever someone doesn't chuckle along with you ?



Perhaps you would like a debate with opinions to be based upon the decidedly non-factual and, indeed, often self-contradictory source materials, and merely made a rather severe typo to call such things facts?

There would perhaps be some merit to this sophistry you are trying to pass off as reasoned analysis, if I didn't already acknowledge the limitations of the source material more or less every time it comes up.


assume you did not postulate that the arguments you based in works of speculative, to use the term loosely, fiction were actually based in fact?

Suspension of Disbelief basically dictates you assume that information presented in the various medias is fact to some degree or another. Taken in context with other evidence you can construct working models for physical interactions, with higher and lower limits, rule out or rationalise outliers, the latter of course being preferable.


Or, shall we assume, based upon your statement concerning suspension of disbelief, we are to act as though both universes are real, and exist, simply elsewhere. We may go down this route, though it is hardly even tangentally related to "facts."

If you utterly refuse to consider any universe in a versus debate as "real" for the purpose of extracting usable information, then you might as well start each post with the entirely appropriate " rocks fall, everyone dies" statement.

Except that since you can't agree or even apparently comprehend (assuming you aren't just being a prat and trying to talk me into submission) that you can derive any useful information for physical models in a fictional universe, then the next poster can argue that the rocks turn into soap bubbles and float away etc etc.

It doesn't matter that in some cases physics are different, unless something describes them different in totality, as opposed to the universe in question having a greater depth of knowledge available to the omnicient narrator and/or various interactions etc.




If that is the case, let us consider the nature of facts, or, rather, knowledge, as presented in much of Epistemology. In Plato's Allegory of the Cave, for instance, the basic human's "knowledge" is merely the shadows of objects carried in front of a flame, behind humanity, which their shackled bodies cannot turn to see

Nope, sorry, don't give a **** about this.


Because they see no real world, only the shadows on the cave wall, and cannot turn to even recognize that these are shadows in a flame, they "know" the shadows they see are the real world, and the totality of the real world. Those who see the outside world are often blinded by its brightness, and are distrusted upon re-entry into the cave.

Very pretty, if utterly pointless.


Within 40K, this may be used as a very valid reason to doubt most of the lore. Most of those cited know only the information they are given, the shadows on the wall of the cave.


Philosophical rambling have never been a valid reason to doubt the laws of physics. Force equals mass times acceleration, and we work with the information given.

Claiming higher knowledge of the "truth" is wonderful, but essentially worthless, since I'm perfectly aware of the truth in this case, that the settings are fictional, I simply choose to compare them based on the information given, since its usually a fairly interesting mental exercise. In other words, fun.



Additionally, those authors describing it in their Warhammer novels describe the world of normal men, not of Philosopher Kings, who have returned to the cave with true sight, though the darkness is now foreign and strange to them. Indeed, the entire descriptions of the novel, in first person or otherwise, may be said to be the altered perception of reality of those who only see the shadows on the cave wall. When reality is shown to them, they believe, instead, the wall of the cave they have come to know as reality. Thus, their entirely reality is shaped by this view, and the events described in the novels are not, in fact, reality, in the 40K universe, but the shadows of reality seen by all parties involved. The only figures who could rightly be seen as Philosopher Kings are the Emperor of Man and perhaps the Chaos Gods, neither of whom, unlike the idyllic king of Plato's imagining, are trustworthy. They do not seek to spread, necessarily, the truths of the real world, but are rather fiercely dedicated to their own ends.

Character perspective is considered, as an out of character/out of universe investigator I can rationalise differences and problems.

:smallsmile:


Can anything be certain, and is anything truly objective?

An ultimately worthless avenue of thought as far as what we do in a versus debate is concerned.

As a rough analogy, its like saying I can't measure my room accurately because I don't do it to the 312412342134 decimal place.

A measure in mil suffices, and I have no need to speculate on whether or not there are fantastically more precise measurements I can achieve. 2000mm is sufficient for my purposes, and I can get on with my task.

Or I could sit there trying to get ever more accurate measurements, you know, wasting my time, like you might, given your attitude.


Orks are green, correct? Well, no. Orks are a collection of colourless molecules assembled in such a way that in certain light, to certain people, they will appear green.

Since its stated that the human in 40k are supposed to be genetically related to us, its a confirmation that Orks are green from a human perspective, and a validation of using our modern appraisal of basic mechanics.

Since various other species consider them green as well, I'm sure you can see how things might work.


Similarly, armour has no doubt been mentioned as sturdy, and solid. Neither is really true. The armour is hollow, with most of it being comprised of empty space. Only electro-magnetic repulsion keeps it from collapsing in upon itself.

Idiot.

"Solid" is a state of matter, you either don't know the scientific terminology, or have deliberately mis-stated. It doesn't really matter. Its definition explicitly describes what a solid might consist of.

This is beginning to look like a cut and paste job from some philosophy site or something.



Furthermore, let us consider Descartes' view of reality, and that nothing which can be disconnected is real

Lets not, its kinda boring.


Thus, the physical body does not truly exist; it may be rent apart without destroying the mind, or soul. The soul, and the only true reality, is the idyllic, inseperable form that somewhere, in heaven, to religious viewing, exists.


*dribbles*

I'm sorry, anything of value to contribute ?


In such a view, there are no facts in the 40K universe, at least none relevant

In such a view, no facts are relevant. Thats why stuff like this has little to do with the advancement of technology, theres no real world basis to it. along with rest of the crap, it in itself is irrelevent to the world.

In other words, you can play with the words all you like, but the planet keeps on spinning.


what if a demon is shaping reality in such a way that we view it simply as reality

Don't care, doesn't matter, if we can't percieve anything different, then there is functionally no difference.

Ho Hum.


. The Chaos Gods are almost perfect for this role, fooling the whole of the 40K universe into believing that it is fighting a grand, titanic battle on a universal scale,

Technically the scale of 40k is deemed to be Galactic, although several intergalactic incursions are proposed. :smallwink:



when really the entirety of its existance amounts to two young men, sitting in a basement, discussing whose ridiculous aliens would beat up whose ridiculous aliens in that battle of titanic, universal importance.

Now who is exaggerating the relative importance of the issue ?

Silly bugger.


the forces of small minded literalism

The "forces of small minded literalism" win any debate on the merits of philosophy versus physics, especially on a web board that wouldn't exist if everyone had sat around on their arse just wondering whether or not they existed....or not, or apples and oranges.

Whats particularly ironic in this case is that Descartes and Plato would have probably recognised this, given their rather useful grasp of mathematics.

I can't decide whether or not you playing with Locke is as bad given the existence of theScientific method.


That's more or less what I wanted to tell Thanghrudrim. Should have paid more atention on Philosophy classes.


And you should have paid more attention in physics, then you might understand why I took the piss out of you for your relativity comments among other things.



It's not a matter if the fluff breacks the laws of reality.

What happened to "there is no background info ?"

Or did that turn into soap bubbles ?



It's a matter of ignoring all the fluff that doesn't suit your side of the argument, and if someone brings it up, dismiss it as completely fake, while magically the fluff you brought up is 100% correct for no other reason that you claim it is correct.

You never did bring anything up that contradicted anything I posted, although you did manage to contradict yourself once or twice.



I'm anxiously waiting for Thangrodrium's resply to that beatifull post. If he doesn't reply that much the better.

Then you've got more invested in this than I'd given you credit for.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Meh. Since I'm tired of Thangorodrim, might as well put things straight. We can't convince you and you can't convince us, pal, so, why do you keep arguin'? You might as well save your breath and do a plain old dignified exit.

Oh, and Veisuta, nice rethorics for saying "You use what's advantegeous for you as fact and to hell with the rest".

[Thangorodrim]

Meh. Since I'm tired of Thangorodrim, might as well put things straight. We can't convince you and you can't convince us, pal, so, why do you keep arguin'? You might as well save your breath and do a plain old dignified exit.

Why ?



Oh, and Veisuta, nice rethorics for saying "You use what's advantegeous for you as fact and to hell with the rest".

The answer to your question would be that I find it irritating when people accuse me of lying.

Dishonesty would appear to be the order of the day for some of you lads though.

[Raiser Blade]

The answer to your question would be that I find it irritating when people accuse me of lying.

Dishonesty would appear to be the order of the day for some of you lads though.

I like how you say you don't like it when people accuse you of lying and then you turn around and accuse them of lying.

Real classy.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Aarrgh, we've had everything we can to try and derail this flametrain, and return it to ... er, the station repair yard of constructive debate;

We've had Rule 34 (yes, Rutee, I know that it is possible for anything, but, as you say, it's the matter of being actualised from Rule 35 that matters), Orlando Bloom vs. Lego figures, exalted, and now even Plato's friggin' allegory of the cave (an allegory that I particularly dislike - as Enoch Root says in the Cryptonomicon, 'it's the Veg-o-matic of metaphors! It slices! It dices!'), and we're still angrily arguing?

What are we even discussing, anyway? The reliability of background material? I think that we've got, to be honest, to accept it in these discussions, if only with a pinch of salt, because otherwise we just come to a sort of pointless, mildly solipsistic, internet fight.

[Poison_Fish]

Aarrgh, we've had everything we can to try and derail this flametrain, and return it to ... er, the station repair yard of constructive debate;

We've had Rule 34 (yes, Rutee, I know that it is possible for anything, but, as you say, it's the matter of being actualised from Rule 35 that matters), Orlando Bloom vs. Lego figures, exalted, and now even Plato's friggin' allegory of the cave (an allegory that I particularly dislike - as Enoch Root says in the Cryptonomicon, 'it's the Veg-o-matic of metaphors! It slices! It dices!'), and we're still angrily arguing?

What are we even discussing, anyway? The reliability of background material? I think that we've got, to be honest, to accept it in these discussions, if only with a pinch of salt, because otherwise we just come to a sort of pointless, mildly solipsistic, internet fight.

But isn't that what this is about? I thought all internet fights were about "winning" and looking cool while cussing out your opponents!?! Have I been lied too!?

[Azerian Kelimon]

About the only thing we haven't discussed is if Van Halen is better than LEd Zeppelin or the other way around.


And the Mousetrap. One can NEVER discuss the mousetrap.

[Illiterate Scribe]

About the only thing we haven't discussed is if Van Halen is better than LEd Zeppelin or the other way around.


And the Mousetrap. One can NEVER discuss the mousetrap.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Mouse_Trap_Board_and_Boxjpg.jpg?


But isn't that what this is about? I thought all internet fights were about "winning" and looking cool while cussing out your opponents!?! Have I been lied too!?

Yes, but to truly win, and look cool, one must keep one's cool, all the while serving up piping hot lulz, cf. Solo.<obligatory Solo praise/>

But, no, forumites, I appeal to us all to find some baseline against which to measure things that isn't WH40K. Judge everything against Riki-oh, maybe, or groups of 300 Spartans.

[Arameus]

I've run into issues like this and I've learned simply to ignore threads in which cross-universe power imbalances will be too much of a problem.

I remember arguing for the Zerg versus the Flood, and eventually realized that as awesome as the Zerg are, the Flood would always win because they are, and are meant to be, stupidly powerful, totally undefeatable except by the almighty hand of Plot itself. Zerg and Flood were never meant to fight in the first place, so pitting them against one another is like watching a Saw movie: it's only interesting if you're a sick freak who enjoys dismemberment and torturing the defenseless.

Thankfully, the balance of versus threads are usually at least in the ballpark with one another; I haven't seen too many Goku versus *random videogame protagonist* threads or anything. But this problem is usually not really acknowledged when it does come into play, or perhaps just not realized by very many. I guess saying "My favored side is far too weak to realistically win" just isn't good politics in a versus discussion.

I've always just favored the Total Awesomeness scale instead. Even a relatively small power imbalance between sides can be insurmountable when you get right down to it, and such a case is pretty much unavoidable unless you're pitting characters or sides from the same universe that just never typically fought before, which I've seen very little of, regardless of how much sense it makes. Therefore, picking the side that is more Totally Awesome and backing it up is usually my recourse since choosing a logical victor would be pretty disingenuous in light of vast power incongruities that may or may not be present.

For instance, a side that scores a 9 on the scale of Total Awesomeness is certain to defeat a five, may or may not win against a 7, and will be hard-pressed to defeat an eight or ten, in which logical factors must by necessity come into play. This sounds pretty silly, but I'm pretty sure this is exactly how the plot of the Halo games was written: Master Chief is Totally Awesome. The innumerable alien hordes are less so. Master Chief wins. Simple as that.

In an actual versus-themed crossover by the two properties' respective creators, this is certainly what would happen anyway, unless they just ended in a draw like they always do to piss off appease both sides' fans.

[Poison_Fish]

Yes, but to truly win, and look cool, one must keep one's cool, all the while serving up piping hot lulz, cf. Solo.<obligatory Solo praise/>

So, we must all be internet tough guys, huh? *Sizes up the other tough guys* Yeah, that's right, beware my written fist. It can deliver a four thousand ton of description and humiliation in but one swing.

[Rutee]

So, we must all be internet tough guys, huh? *Sizes up the other tough guys* Yeah, that's right, beware my written fist. It can deliver a four thousand ton of description and humiliation in but one swing.

B- but there's no room for finesse there!

[Poison_Fish]

B- but there's no room for finesse there!

Sorry, I did a strength build. With custom internet 1e brawl charms. All encompassing Godwin Smash!

[Rutee]

Sorry, I did a strength build. With custom internet 1e brawl charms. All encompassing Godwin Smash!

I'd rather do Socialize and Dodge, I think. Especially the latter.. it seems crazy useful on these forums. Inauspicious Flame Conjuring Method is a crazy powerful Charm.

[Tengu]

Thangorodrim's last post reminds me of the last part of cross-examining almost every witness in Phoenix Wright, when they start to lose their nerves and spout out passive-aggressive lines (and, in some cases, froth at the mouth or get heart attacks). Which means I'm probably playing too much Phoenix Wright lately.

PS. Ah, you silly people with your silly second edition Exalted! I see no point in it.
But only because the only Exalted game I play is first edition.

[Poison_Fish]

Thangorodrim's last post reminds me of the last part of cross-examining almost every witness in Phoenix Wright, when they start to lose their nerves and spout out passive-aggressive lines (and, in some cases, froth at the mouth or get heart attacks). Which means I'm probably playing too much Phoenix Wright lately.

PS. Ah, you silly people with your silly second edition Exalted! I see no point in it.
But only because the only Exalted game I play is first edition.

Hey, I'm still a fan of 1E over 2E.

And does this make us the Jury?

[Rutee]

2e adds Social Combat. Case Closed for me, since it gives my favorite type something to do mechanically.

Also can I be the Judge?


Thangorodrim's last post reminds me of the last part of cross-examining almost every witness in Phoenix Wright, when they start to lose their nerves and spout out passive-aggressive lines (and, in some cases, froth at the mouth or get heart attacks). Which means I'm probably playing too much Phoenix Wright lately.

Wha?

[Tengu]

And does this make us the Jury?

Probably. I haven't played the third game when they actually come to exist. They're probably better than the judge though - he's a senile old man who gets easily confused by the simplest matters and who doesn't know what a digital camera is, in year 2016 AD. Guess that being the only judge for the whole LA (or Tokyo, depending on whether do we consider the translation or the original) does that to people.

EDIT: Amusing how on-topic is this post with Rutee's, despite being ninjaed.



Wha?

Because I attach to it everything I see.

*puts his hands on the table and points a finger with speed stripes in the background* And I have evidence to prove it!

[Rutee]

Because I attach to it everything I see.

*puts his hands on the table and points a finger with speed stripes in the background* And I have evidence to prove it!

OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2402095)

[Illiterate Scribe]

So, we must all be internet tough guys, huh? *Sizes up the other tough guys* Yeah, that's right, beware my written fist. It can deliver a four thousand ton of description and humiliation in but one swing.

Nah, that's the legion of martial arts trained, katana and saber-wielding blackbelts that apparently populates the forum. The skill lies in wit, preferably at no-one's or everyone's expense.

Rutee, Poisonfish - where've you been? Int- and finesse-builds were nerfed with IRC 2.0, and made near unplayable with the AIM expansion pack. Currently, you're probably best with the forum drama/internet hate machine feat chain.

[Rutee]

Rutee, Poisonfish - where've you been? Int- and finesse-builds were nerfed with IRC 2.0, and made near unplayable with the AIM expansion pack. Currently, you're probably best with the forum drama/internet hate machine feat chain.

Where have you been for the last 6 months? Have you not heard about the Internet 2.0? Invalidates all the old splatbooks :smallbiggrin:

[Azerian Kelimon]

You guys got it all wrong. With the advent of Upper Echelon forums, Finesse builds with tons of ettiquette and a good amount of skill in Counterposting is it. The other big alternative is Critical Post builds, but those are pretty unreliable and require regional feats.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Where have you been for the last 6 months? Have you not heard about the Internet 2.0? Invalidates all the old splatbooks :smallbiggrin:

Heh, user-generated content's not so much a game overhaul as one might think. It's had a good uptake rate, and the old guard like it, but a lot of people are unhappy with the new ROFLMAOZORZ-sided dice, and the lololololololol skill based system.

[Serenity]

Probably. I haven't played the third game when they actually come to exist. They're probably better than the judge though - he's a senile old man who gets easily confused by the simplest matters and who doesn't know what a digital camera is, in year 2016 AD. Guess that being the only judge for the whole LA (or Tokyo, depending on whether do we consider the translation or the original) does that to people.

It's the fourth game that introduces juries, actually, and not until the final case. Though, in the third, we find out there is at least one other Judge--the main judge's nearly identical younger brother, a Canadian who's almost as bad, but at least does question Franziska having a whip.

[Ominous]

Hey, I'm still a fan of 1E over 2E.

I'm thinking of grabbing Exalted and introducing it to my group. Why do you like the first edition over the second?

EDIT - My build is the internet equivalent of Pun-pun.

[Poison_Fish]

Fair enough, my old build doesn't quite work as well. But I spent the points to have lolcats as my familiar, so I can still function against the more popular builds. Also, I still have the ever so popular equipment with me: Kill it with Fire, Harpoons, Ion Cannon, and my personal favorite, Fist of an Angry God.

Off topic(more so then our other discussion here): It's just a preference thing. I've made a ton of stuff that functions in 1E that I've based my games on and 2E changes all sorts of things around, so I'm a bit hesitant to convert it over. I suppose in a few years I will. You can find a few of the things I made on the non-White Wolf exalted wiki under the same name. The rest I haven't bothered to upload mostly due to time constraints and the time it takes to convert all my stuff over to wiki format.

That and I'm not the biggest fan of social combat and the tick system. In general I am a fan of tick systems, we used one at the former awesome job I had, but Jade is OP there for Exalted. A like my action to be a little less fluid and my social interactions to be a little more RP rather then roleplay. But they are very slight differences IMO.

Further side note; what do you think the ramifications of Italian Soda's in the Dark and Grim, and Grim and Dark universe of 40K is? Do you think such sweet things would be allowed to be drunken in accordance of the emperor? Or is it too Grim and Dark to have anything be considered "sweet"?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Fair enough, my old build doesn't quite work as well. But I spent the points to have lolcats as my familiar, so I can still function against the more popular builds. Also, I still have the ever so popular equipment with me: Kill it with Fire, Harpoons, Ion Cannon, and my personal favorite, Fist of an Angry God.

Heh, I sunk everything in perfect NO U defence.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/IlliterateScribe_album/NO_U_cycle.png


Further side note; what do you think the ramifications of Italian Soda's in the Dark and Grim, and Grim and Dark universe of 40K is? Do you think such sweet things would be allowed to be drunken in accordance of the emperor? Or is it too Grim and Dark to have anything be considered "sweet"?

It probably is available, but it's used as a test to see if people will be tricked by the insidious, initially sweet, but soon bitter, lure of chaos. If they fall to it, or even if they don't, they are purged with fire.

[Rutee]

On the off-off-topic, and as a semi-srs question, how tall/heavy are Titans? I had the Gate of Magus open in another browser while searching for something else, and noticed that it lists mecha sizes, so I'm now a bit curious.

[Tengu]

OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2402095)

http://www.blakeneymanor.com/images/carryon/shock.jpg

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Didn't you read it ? Or is it SOP for you to just post random bull**** whenever someone doesn't chuckle along with you ?
I do not sop up anything, especially not random ****, of bulls or otherwise. You will find that a job for sponges.


There would perhaps be some merit to this sophistry you are trying to pass off as reasoned analysis, if I didn't already acknowledge the limitations of the source material more or less every time it comes up.
Reasoned? Damn, I meant it to be in rhyme. I always mix those two up.


Suspension of Disbelief basically dictates you assume that information presented in the various medias is fact to some degree or another.
I heard Disbelief got suspended for bringing a knife to school.


Taken in context with other evidence you can construct working models for physical interactions, with higher and lower limits, rule out or rationalise outliers, the latter of course being preferable.
I don't try and rationalize things, anymore. I just use a fancy little italic letter I to show they're irrational numbers.


If you utterly refuse to consider any universe in a versus debate as "real" for the purpose of extracting usable information, then you might as well start each post with the entirely appropriate " rocks fall, everyone dies" statement.
I would never argue such a thing. Nothing ever rocks, nor rolls/falls, and nothing is ever worth the cost.


Except that since you can't agree or even apparently comprehend (assuming you aren't just being a prat and trying to talk me into submission)
I did not attend Prat School of Design. I didn't even apply there, actually. I fail to see what my education has to do with this argument, anyhow.


that you can derive any useful information for physical models in a fictional universe, then the next poster can argue that the rocks turn into soap bubbles and float away etc etc.
A soap bubble, I could accept. A ruby, however, I could not, as one will never find a ruby in a mountain of rocks. Similarly, there is no Coup deVille hiding at the bottom of a crackerjack box.


It doesn't matter that in some cases physics are different, unless something describes them different in totality, as opposed to the universe in question having a greater depth of knowledge available to the omnicient narrator and/or various interactions etc.
Omnicient is some obscure french word for "always here", right? Omn, ici, and ent, the third-person plural stem? If you think your bizarre, foreign port-manatees can confuse me, you're sorely mistaken, chief.


Nope, sorry, don't give a **** about this.
I agree, while the Allegory of the Cave is a great work, I'd give it more like ***1/2 out of **** than the full four stars, as it does have some flaws; I thought the pacing lagged a little towards the end.


Very pretty, if utterly pointless.
I don't recall writing anything about my ex-wife. Oooh, Burn, amirite?


Philosophical rambling have never been a valid reason to doubt the laws of physics. Force equals mass times acceleration, and we work with the information given.
Laws of physics like the ones 40K doesn't break and explains with something about the Warp that basically amounts to silly metaphysics?


Claiming higher knowledge of the "truth" is wonderful, but essentially worthless, since I'm perfectly aware of the truth in this case, that the settings are fictional, I simply choose to compare them based on the information given, since its usually a fairly interesting mental exercise. In other words, fun.
My argument was about questioning the nature of reality, even if the worlds given are viewed to be just as real as ours, they're still v


Character perspective is considered, as an out of character/out of universe investigator I can rationalise differences and problems.
You live out of the universe? Dude, the commute in to the universe to work every morning must be awful. No wonder you're in such a bad mood.


An ultimately worthless avenue of thought as far as what we do in a versus debate is concerned.
A worthless avenue of thought seems perfectly befitting a versus debate.


As a rough analogy, its like saying I can't measure my room accurately because I don't do it to the 312412342134 decimal place.
I like my analogies like my men, Smooth and not involving decimal places.


Or I could sit there trying to get ever more accurate measurements, you know, wasting my time, like you might, given your attitude.
Don't knock it until you've tried it, man. I have a really tiny ruler I can send you. I usually use it to measure. . . other stuff. I don't like talking about this anymore.


Since its stated that the human in 40k are supposed to be genetically related to us, its a confirmation that Orks are green from a human perspective, and a validation of using our modern appraisal of basic mechanics.

Since various other species consider them green as well, I'm sure you can see how things might work.
If various other species jumped off a cliff, would you, Thangy? That's what I thought, now eat yer may-be-greens-depending-on-from-whose-perspective-they-are-viewed.


Idiot.
I know what I am, but what are you?


"Solid" is a state of matter, you either don't know the scientific terminology, or have deliberately mis-stated. It doesn't really matter. Its definition explicitly describes what a solid might consist of.
I was not aware words could have only a single meaning. What are those numbers in the dictionary for?


This is beginning to look like a cut and paste job from some philosophy site or something.
You're right. I had to spend hours searching for it, but I found a site dedicated to Warhammer 40K viewed through the lens of skepticism. As rule 34 dictates, it was also porn. Hobbes x Slannesh, mostly.


Lets not, its kinda boring.
Who does not let us, and why are you using such archaic grammar?


*dribbles*
They have a pill for that.


I'm sorry, anything of value to contribute ?
I got a lotta heart.


In such a view, no facts are relevant. Thats why stuff like this has little to do with the advancement of technology, theres no real world basis to it. along with rest of the crap, it in itself is irrelevent to the world.
Unlike arguing about Orks, which are firmly grounded in the real world, and whose MekBoyz are the future of technology.


In other words, you can play with the words all you like, but the planet keeps on spinning.
How can I dance if my world keeps turning?


Don't care, doesn't matter, if we can't percieve anything different, then there is functionally no difference.

Technically the scale of 40k is deemed to be Galactic, although several intergalactic incursions are proposed. :smallwink:
Keep Galactus to the Marvel threads, please. That's not what we're discussing, now.


Now who is exaggerating the relative importance of the issue ?
I'm gonna guess either "Your face," or "Your mom." I can't remember which one is proper to go for first.


Silly bugger.
You're defending the merits of guys who dress like this (http://www.wargaiming.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/EldarCodexCover.jpg) and dare call me silly?


The "forces of small minded literalism" win any debate on the merits of philosophy versus physics, especially on a web board that wouldn't exist if everyone had sat around on their arse just wondering whether or not they existed....or not, or apples and oranges.
Small mindedness did not invent the internet. That's Al Gore, who is open-minded. Except to manbearpigs.


Whats particularly ironic in this case is that Descartes and Plato would have probably recognised this, given their rather useful grasp of mathematics.
Nonsense. Philosophers drink tea, and tannic acid is known to deplete one's iron. They're not ferrous (the proper term is not "irony") at all, they're actually iron-deficient.


I can't decide whether or not you playing with Locke is as bad given the existence of theScientific method.
I don't care what my mother tells you, I will not fall out of the back seat if you let me play with the locks. That happened once.


And you should have paid more attention in physics, then you might understand why I took the piss out of you for your relativity comments among other things.
You should've paid more attention in biology, then you might question why you wanted his piss.


Dishonesty would appear to be the order of the day for some of you lads though.
If you don't like this thread, we could always go to Taco Bell. Maybe you're more of a Taco Bell kinda guy?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Okay. Veisuta has not only scored the Rhethoric post of the year, but also The Longest Non RP post of the year (Some might argue that the first one was also candidate for Post Of th Year, but I'm betting on Dervag, after seeing him score a Critical Post of x7 multiplier last year).

Now, let's forget T-Gorodrim and have him rot in obscurity.

[Rutee]

This is the best versus thread ever. It's abrasive obtuseness vs. Unflappable Literalness. Pity it comes at the expense of feeding the trolls, but that's what we call an acceptable cost.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not to mention we're having, what, 4 offtopic conversations and we've brought over 3 Pictures of AwesomeTM, and will probably create a meme before we're finished.

[Poison_Fish]

This is the best versus thread ever. It's abrasive obtuseness vs. Unflappable Literalness. Pity it comes at the expense of feeding the trolls, but that's what we call an acceptable cost.

Trolls need to eat food eventually. It is better to feed them in a specific area then to let them run wild snacking on our other, more refined threads of civilization.

I now declare this thread Gem. May it's sacrifice save us all.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Must...Resist...Gauntlet...phrase...losing...contr ol...


Troll Needs Food Badly!

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Okay. Veisuta has not only scored the Rhethoric post of the year, but also The Longest Non RP post of the year (Some might argue that the first one was also candidate for Post Of th Year, but I'm betting on Dervag, after seeing him score a Critical Post of x7 multiplier last year).

Now, let's forget T-Gorodrim and have him rot in obscurity.

I think I should get a few bonus points for my entire very long post being Groucho Marx puns, too. I spent a long time working on some way to on-purpose misunderstand virtually everything he said.

[Azerian Kelimon]

"Or this man is dead or my clock just stopped ticking".

For reminding me of that phrase, I concede a "Got a forumer so angry by purposefully misunderstanding him that Through The Fire And Flames becomes the obligatory theme song to read through his posts" Award.

[Rutee]

Gray Troll Needs Food Badly!

Fixed. Also, I concur with Veisu getting more points.

[Eita]

Veisu, this isn't /b/. Arguing the most irrelevant points and detracting from the argument at hand is actually bad in these parts.

Seriously, go back to 4Chan and fight Scientology. Here the internet is srs business.

Now then, you are seeming to forgot the art of Narrative, where it's the narrator giving the goddamn story instead of a person.

As such, everything from the first person view-point can be considered suspect, but things delivered by the author are considered factual. Otherwise, everything ever written is wrong.

Case desu closed desu.

[Rutee]

I'm pretty sure all Than does is argue the most irrelevant points. Basically, it adds humor as literalness and Obtuseness have it out.


As such, everything from the first person view-point can be considered suspect, but things delivered by the author are considered factual. Otherwise, everything ever written is wrong.

Aren't most WH40k novels written in First Person?

[Eita]

None that I've read. You never see the word "I" outside of quotations in Gaunt's Ghosts or The Horus Heresy.

Besides, the basic fluff is all in third-person.

[Swordguy]

As such, everything from the first person view-point can be considered suspect, but things delivered by the author are considered factual. Otherwise, everything ever written is wrong.


You've come so very, very close to the actual truth of Vs Threads, and the internet in general. Instead, try, "everything ever written is wrong...when it disagrees with what I have to say."

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Veisu, this isn't /b/. Arguing the most irrelevant points and detracting from the argument at hand is actually bad in these parts.
The argument about which fake universe could beat up which imaginary cosmology were an event that would more than strain the narrative credibility of both to somehow cause them to battle?
Sir, you give me too much credit. There is nothing I could do to detract from such an argument.


Now then, you are seeming to forgot the art of Narrative, where it's the narrator giving the goddamn story instead of a person.
Omniscient narrators are not really omniscient. Just because the narration is in third person does not make it unbiased. I don't read the 40K novelizaitons, so I don't really know how good they are, but if any of them are on par quality level with the glorified fanfiction they share a sub-genre with, you know just how badly biased a third-person narrator can be.


but things delivered by the author are considered factual. Otherwise, everything ever written is wrong.
Or, rather, everything ever written is true with regard to its internal consistancy and only becomes indefinite and suspect when it is forced to attempt to co-exist with an entirely different reality. If a fictional universe functions on Aristotle's version of physics, that may be true for that universe. However, if it is mashed up with one that does not, do objects fall because they want to, or because of the force of gravity? Do the fly in a line or in an arc?
Allow me to explain what happens: the situation is ridiculous. It should be treated as such.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Veisu, this isn't /b/. Arguing the most irrelevant points and detracting from the argument at hand is actually bad in these parts.

Seriously, go back to 4Chan and fight Scientology. Here the internet is srs business.

Now then, you are seeming to forgot the art of Narrative, where it's the narrator giving the goddamn story instead of a person.

As such, everything from the first person view-point can be considered suspect, but things delivered by the author are considered factual. Otherwise, everything ever written is wrong.

Case desu closed desu.

Seriously, Eita, if this was Ebaums, this thread would have been saged to death aeons ago.

[Ebaine Vulkarn]

Veisu, may I bask in the light of your glory, if only for a few minutes?

[Poison_Fish]

Veisu, may I bask in the light of your glory, if only for a few minutes?

Maaaybee want?

On a 40k note, I keep forgetting, how exactly do they feed those hive worlds? Or do they just don't feed them?

[Selrahc]

On a 40k note, I keep forgetting, how exactly do they feed those hive worlds? Or do they just don't feed them?

There are dedicated agri worlds feeding some of them. Others have internal food supplies of a large order, as well as getting supplies externally. Generally Imperial Planets have a large food reserve in case of emergency.

The food they eat generally isn't nice. Normally its all the same bland junk that can be mass grown quickly, with added nutritional supplements so people don't drop dead from malnutrition.

A hive world generally isn't covered in hives. Maybe two or three bigass hives, blighting the landscape for a very large area around them, but also leaving large areas of the planet available for farming.

[Poison_Fish]

I know they have the dedicated agi worlds, but not every hive world has got to have them.

I also know the merchant princes exist. But are they the bulk of supplies and traffic that moves through out the empire. It always struck me that they traded exotic goods, and that inter-trade is seemingly very rare in the IoM Beyond that of a singular solar system.

I guess the cost of moving bulks of food across the warp is just to risky.

[Thangorodrim]

I do not sop up anything, especially not random ****, of bulls or otherwise. You will find that a job for sponges.

Shovels would be more efficient.


Reasoned? Damn, I meant it to be in rhyme. I always mix those two up.

A pity.

I heard Disbelief got suspended for bringing a knife to school.

Irrelevant trolling


I don't try and rationalize things, anymore. I just use a fancy little italic letter I to show they're irrational numbers.

Irrelevant trolling.


I would never argue such a thing. Nothing ever rocks, nor rolls/falls, and nothing is ever worth the cost.

See above.


I did not attend Prat School of Design. I didn't even apply there, actually. I fail to see what my education has to do with this argument, anyhow.

Not particularly coherent trolling.


A soap bubble, I could accept. A ruby, however, I could not, as one will never find a ruby in a mountain of rocks. Similarly, there is no Coup deVille hiding at the bottom of a crackerjack box.

*yawn*


Omnicient is some obscure french word for "always here", right? Omn, ici, and ent, the third-person plural stem? If you think your bizarre, foreign port-manatees can confuse me, you're sorely mistaken, chief.

^


I agree, while the Allegory of the Cave is a great work, I'd give it more like ***1/2 out of **** than the full four stars, as it does have some flaws; I thought the pacing lagged a little towards the end.

See my first answer.


I don't recall writing anything about my ex-wife. Oooh, Burn, amirite?


Irrelevant trolling.


Laws of physics like the ones 40K doesn't break and explains with something about the Warp that basically amounts to silly metaphysics?

Why should the warp be considered to affect simple kinematics or phase changes etc with explicit mention ?

An example would be Venom jetbikes using teleportation to change direction rather than physically moving.


My argument was about questioning the nature of reality, even if the worlds given are viewed to be just as real as ours, they're still v


My argument was that you were talking irrelevant bollocks as far as the viability of a Vs goes, and have been pretty much from the start.



You live out of the universe? Dude, the commute in to the universe to work every morning must be awful. No wonder you're in such a bad mood

Having context problems again ?


A worthless avenue of thought seems perfectly befitting a versus debate.

Again, deliberate misinterpretation of context is your thing I take it ?


I like my analogies like my men, Smooth and not involving decimal places.

Irrelevant trolling.


Don't knock it until you've tried it, man. I have a really tiny ruler I can send you. I usually use it to measure. . . other stuff. I don't like talking about this anymore.

Irrelevant trolling.


If various other species jumped off a cliff, would you, Thangy? That's what I thought, now eat yer may-be-greens-depending-on-from-whose-perspective-they-are-viewed.

Irrelevant trolling.


I was not aware words could have only a single meaning. What are those numbers in the dictionary for?

The scientific definition of solid incorporates the meanings that someone describing armour as "solid" would imply.

Notably the concept that it is resistant to deformation from any specific force they can apply.

gibbering about how its "not really solid" because of the atomic level structure of matter is idiocy, because thats not what anybody would be thinking about by describing armour as solid.


You're right. I had to spend hours searching for it, but I found a site dedicated to Warhammer 40K viewed through the lens of skepticism. As rule 34 dictates, it was also porn. Hobbes x Slannesh, mostly.

irrelevant trolling.


Who does not let us, and why are you using such archaic grammar?

Who is stopping me ?


They have a pill for that.

Sorry, I fell asleep reading that ****.


I got a lotta heart.

I recall asking for a response that was of some value.


Unlike arguing about Orks, which are firmly grounded in the real world, and whose MekBoyz are the future of technology.

The specific functioning of the technology doesn't matter most of the time, what it achieves is the information we use.


How can I dance if my world keeps turning?

The spinning of the planet does not hinder dance Troll.


Keep Galactus to the Marvel threads, please. That's not what we're discussing, now.

pointless trolling


I'm gonna guess either "Your face," or "Your mom." I can't remember which one is proper to go for first.

Pointless trolling


You're defending the merits of guys who dress like this and dare call me silly?

I don't recall the aesthetics of Eldar wargear being a topic of discussion.


Small mindedness did not invent the internet. That's Al Gore, who is open-minded. Except to manbearpigs.

At this point I'm the more open minded it would seem, and the more imaginative, I can suspend my disbelief without having to whine about how everything isn't real.


Nonsense. Philosophers drink tea, and tannic acid is known to deplete one's iron. They're not ferrous (the proper term is not "irony") at all, they're actually iron-deficient.

trolling


I don't care what my mother tells you, I will not fall out of the back seat if you let me play with the locks. That happened once.


Trolling


You should've paid more attention in biology, then you might question why you wanted his piss.


trolling


If you don't like this thread, we could always go to Taco Bell. Maybe you're more of a Taco Bell kinda guy?

Simple observation and statement of fact does not entail emotional involvement.


I think I should get a few bonus points for my entire very long post being Groucho Marx puns, too. I spent a long time working on some way to on-purpose misunderstand virtually everything he said.

To contrast, it didn't take me that long at all to reply.


I'm pretty sure all Than does is argue the most irrelevant points. Basically, it adds humor as literalness and Obtuseness have it out.

Actually I try and parse out the deliberate trolling.


Aren't most WH40k novels written in First Person?

No, there aren't that many first person novels. About 10 come to mind.


It always struck me that they traded exotic goods, and that inter-trade is seemingly very rare in the IoM Beyond that of a singular solar system.

Actually the vast bulk of shipping in the Imperium is Merchantile. They have millions and millions of merchant vessels as well as gigantic bulk carriers.

Population is kept under control to some degree by Tithes, Hiveworlds pay their tithes in people and industrial products, and the Imperium also uses Hiveworlds as a source of populations for colony worlds.

I.e. they pick up millions and dump them on a planet with pre-fab structures and industry and leave them to it, or repopulate devastated planets.

[The_Snark]

Thangorodrim... I think that while you dissected Veisu's post, you missed something about it that was rather important. Namely that it was not meant to be taken seriously.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Go ahead and bask in my glory, but I'd stay away from bridges. I guess I will kill you if you try and cross them. Irrelevantly.

[Oslecamo]

VeisuItaTyhjyys, just to say that its people like you half the reason I write in forums. Your brilliant replies shall be an inspiration to me in my future discussions in life. Living and learning, living and learning.

[Ossian]

Go ahead and bask in my glory, but I'd stay away from bridges. I guess I will kill you if you try and cross them. Irrelevantly.

Oh sweet Heaven, this was awesome :cool: . I must say that I stumbled upon this thread almost casually, and then got sucked into it. I read it backwards (from page 5 to page 1) and it took me a while to find the casus belli, but it was worth every second of it. Truly this was the best English Language class I have taken in years. So, cheers to all the contributors (but I raise a bonus chalice to Veisu) for making me level up language wise! It reminded me of the glorious days of WartGoblin on the "Sauron Vs Voldemort" thread. Only, in that Vs thread Ditto was a lot more into fair play, and a worthy opponent like few others. :xykon:

Besides, around page 3 I have even learnt what a haddock looks like, you never know when such things will come handy (have you noticed how hard it is to learn the names of fish in other languages?).

Well, I guess I'll have to try and stay at least marginally IT. The blossoming of Vs WH40K threads only enticed me so much. making vastly different narrative universes collide can be fun, but here it is hardly ever done for the sake of fun itself.

I mean, I am not getting any hotter or richer by knowing how many megatons can be discharged by a WH40K nuke or whether a psiblade will be able to deflect a las-beam, though it's fun to invent scenarios and play the "what if?" game.

I might be misinterpreting the quotation, but one thing C.S. Lewis had Aslan say in "The Chronicles of Narnia" seems to be fitting IMO. It was something like "Things always work according to their nature". You can open a Vs thread, and you will have Vs posts, but if you open it with the simple intention of pitting your wet dream against "whatever there is next due to be pwnzed" and defend it with technobabble and self referential fiction all you get is a pat on the shoulder and a "good boy, yes, of course Horus pwnzs, now go to bed sweetheart...".

O.