What to do with Turning?

[McMindflayer]

I'm about to run a game in which my players will face a multitude of undead, but Turn undead seems to me to be a bit powerful in such a case. Sure it's good for a cleric when you run into a few times, but when all your enemies are various undead or maybe a cleric or two, it becomes a rather powerful tool.

Should I just leave it, Or should I replace it? Maybe make it weaker. Make the opponents stronger? I would like any opinions or ideas please.

[tyckspoon]

What level are they at? There's a point where Turn Undead basically stops working against equal or near-equal CR undead; you're lucky if your turn check is enough to actually score a turn, and you won't be destroying anything unless you're focused on it (Turn-improving items, Sun domain/some other way to get a Greater Turning.) If the party and the undead they're fighting are high enough level, Turn Undead won't do much of anything. If they're both low level, it has reasonable chances of working.. and I would leave it alone. It's not a guaranteed effect and it won't completely eliminate the undead unless the cleric rolls very well or is a Turn-based build (in which case you should leave it alone because clerics focused on optimizing turning undead don't usually get all that many chances to shine)

If you have a higher level party working through swarms of low level undead.. well, that's what Turn Undead is *meant* for. It's just about the one situation in the game where it's almost always a better option than casting a spell or just putting your mace through the skull of the skeleton instead. And it's still a limited uses/day resource. If you really are throwing enough undead at the party for multitudes to be accurate, they'll run out of Turns quick enough.

..so I guess my advice is to leave Turn Undead alone. It's a chance for an often ineffectual and underused feature to be the star, let it happen. And if you want a particular batch of undead to be tougher, you can have those clerics (I'm assuming they channel negative, since they're hanging around with undead) bolster them.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

do note that prepared bad guys can counter those little goodie two shows...undead created or inside a desecrated area or unhallow are stronger and more resisant to turning...also, an evil cleric can bolster undead and make them very hard to turn.

Unhallow lasts for a nice long time...desecrate, not as long...but a resetting trap, or a permanancy (if not 'normally' listed, one can be houseruled to work if you are the dm). Also note that the really strong version of desecrate cuts off any god of good alignment (or is it different god) if the dieties rank is less than the one who sanctioned the desecration.

This means...if they worship a lesser or intermediate god, and the evil guy worships a greater god...the good clerics loose all benefits of their god when they enter the area of desecration...very nice.

[Talic]

Also, undead created under the Libris Mortis Feat chain can be rather resistant. One feat off the Corpsecrafter tree gives your created undead +4 Turn Resistance. Another feat gives your undead +4 turn resistance as long as they're near you. Yet another is able to be taken by undead for a +4 Turn resistance. If you have a Vampire (human) caster that creates undead, his nearby skeletons can turn as 9HD critters, his zombies can turn as 10HD, and, if he's level 7, he can turn as a 15HD (19HD if he was created by a corpsecrafter). This makes most clerics hard pressed to use turning for anything other than DMM, as it should be. :smallamused:

[The_Snark]

There's a variant on turning somewhere that makes turning attempts deal positive energy damage, making it more reliable and easier to handle than the standard. It's easier for the DM to handle, since they no longer have a choice between making the cleric's ability useless or letting the cleric end most encounters.

Essentially, using a turn attempt deals 1d6 positive energy damage per cleric level to all undead in the area, with a Will save DC for half. Rebuking heals undead instead. Neither affects living creatures.

More details are in Complete Divine.

[leperkhaun]

AS someone else stated there is a varient where the cleric does positive energy damage instead of turning.

however im also of the mind that you should allow your player to have turning. Its one of the advantages of bieng a cleric and at higher levels it doesnt work very well (monsters with much more HD than 1/level, turn resistance...etc).

I might say no Disciple of the Sun feat (i think thats the one, lets you spend an addition turn attempt to destroy undead you normally would just turn).

If someone is playing something like a rogue, id give them some warning because they wont like messing with undead.

[Miles Invictus]

Turning is fine, even in an especially undead-heavy campaign. If you're using high level undead, turning is less likely to work. If you're using hordes of low level undead, he'll either burn through all of his turn attempts in a few battles, or carefully save a few for emergencies. In either case, he'll kick ass in a few encounters and have to fight normally through the rest.

I like the positive energy variant that Snark referenced; it's great because it simplifies the rules and removes the "all-or-nothing" aspect.

[Panda-s1]

Wow, I know people complain a lot about turning, but this is the first time I've seen someone complain about it being useful. Now I'm not that experienced, but like everyone says it becomes less effective at higher levels, and honestly I think you should just let turning finally have its moment in the sun.

[Leon]

Make sure you keep a tight reign over the usage of Nightsticks

[Zincorium]

If I'm DM I generally just take it away and give clerics another 2 skill points per level. I've never had anyone mind that.

[feefait]

My issue with turning has always been the math and complications for little return. What we do is the cleric makes his roll, d20, plus level + cha + feats, etc. That result is now a will save for all undead in the area. If they roll a 1 and are less HD then the cleric they are destoyed. IN our games 20's and 1's are huge though, you may want to avoid this. I just hate bogging down a combat with the charts and comparing hd and all that with the way the current system works.

[Crimson Avenger]

Why is there so much math? It's the same modifier every time. It's not tlike your cleric level or your CHA modifier change from one turn to the next in a single combat. These are all things that can be figured out before butt's every hit the table at a session. Same goes for attack and damage bonuses.

Someone enlighten me as to why there are gamers who have to crunch the numbers on their attack rolls for every single attack. Hold it. Tangental.

i don't see the problem with turning, too powerful or too weak. We have a Radiant Servant in our 10th level party. He's got something like 18 turn attemps per day. He uses divine feats to burn through his turn attempts. He's happy, it doesn't slow down play, so we're happy. It's an attack roll, their hit dice are the AC equivelent, and he rolls for damage. Simple.

[Yakk]

How about turn undead as lethal/non lethal damage?

A given undead can only be turned once per cleric per encounter.

Save CR: 10+Cleric Level/2+Cha Bonus, Will based

On success, the damage is non-lethal.
On failure, the damage is lethal, and undead cannot approach within 5' of the cleric.

Damage:
1d8 per cleric level, applied the closest (cha bonus) undead.

If there is overflow, it applies to other undead further out. A given undead cannot be hit twice.

Non-lethal damage on undead: If the lethal+non-lethal damage exceeds the creature's HP, the creature flees (ie, is turned).

Undead heal their charisma stat in non-lethal damage per minute.

...

How is that? Turn undead becomes a pretty decent AOE damage ability, but is not ungodly.

[feefait]

[QUOTE=Crimson Avenger;3868260]Why is there so much math? It's the same modifier every time. It's not tlike your cleric level or your CHA modifier change from one turn to the next in a single combat. These are all things that can be figured out before butt's every hit the table at a session. Same goes for attack and damage bonuses.

Someone enlighten me as to why there are gamers who have to crunch the numbers on their attack rolls for every single attack. Hold it. Tangental.

It just never seems to go as well as I think it should, or would like it to. I mean figuring out maximum HD turned and all that... blah we simplified it. Maybe too much, but it works and our clerics are happy.

I agree completely with the attack rolls. Played once with a half orc barbarian with a double bladed axe... even at 10th level he was still adding his modifiers each turn and it took 5 minutes every time he would roll the dice. WRITE THEM DOWN! lol

[Telonius]

To be fair, it's not always the individual modifiers that do in melee combat. If the cleric's just cast bless and the bard is singing and you're flanking, then somebody casts enlarge person on you, then Haste, but then you get hit with a dispel ... well, that's a lot of modifiers to keep track of.

The problem with Turn Undead is that it requires two rolls, and the first roll needs to be checked against a table every time. I have yet to find any DM that knows the table offhand. Yes, the DM should have that table bookmarked and ready if he's going to throw any undead at the party. But the fact that there is a table, and the fact that the damage counts as hit dice turned, isn't much like the other standard D&D mechanics. That makes it hard to remember. It's always an exercise of, "Now how does this work again?" every time it comes up.

[BlackandGold]

Turn Undead is that it requires two rolls, and the first roll needs to be checked against a table every time. I have yet to find any DM that knows the table offhand.
I have a little corner on my character sheet, where I've copied the appropiate section down. So now it's look there for modifier, roll, look again for affected maximum HD, ask the DM if it is working, look there for the modifier for turning damage, roll, tell the DM aaaand finished. Because I normally do Rolls for Hit and Damage at the same Time, I do this also here and the whole Episode doesn't take more time then a normal attack.