Dethroning the IoM: 40K vs. the Zentraedi

[Swordguy]

Two colossal, galaxy-spanning empires go to war. I believe this to be the pentultimate matchup between stupidly large forces that depend on massive numbers of grunts and colossal WarShips. Both sides as their overall objective have the annihilation of their OPFOR. However, it's a take and hold scenario...so things that wipe out worlds wholesale are of the table.

To be clear, this refers to the combined forces of the Robotech Masters at the height of their power, including the entire Zentraedi force and Bioroid armies, before the Protoculture Wars with the Invid. As such, the information depicted in the Robotech animated series about how badly the Zent forces are depleted (at the time, they'd been fighting a near-million-year long war) is out of the picture.

Reference material allowed, in order of precedence (Robotech):
-Robotech Animated Series, including the Southern Cross series, but not the third and final animated chapter to the Robotech saga.
-Robotech RPG, except where it directly contradicts onscreen evidence.
-Robotech novels covering before and up to the end of the 2nd Robotech War, except where it directly contradicts onscreen or RPG evidence.
-Online resources that do not contradict the previous items.

Reference Material allowed, in order of precedence (40K):
-Black Library Novel line
-Game reference materials (including pure fluff books)
-White Dwarf issues
-Online resources that do not contradict the previous items.

Conditions:
-Neither side may use planet-killers or equivalent level technologies.
-No special characters (so no "Emperor wakes up and ZOMGWTFPWNs everything ever created!")
-Neither side is considered to have to worry about interference from regular opponents. Therefore, the IoM doesn't have to worry about the Orks and Nids overrunning everyone, and the Zentraedi don't have to deal with the Invid.
-The Minmei Attack is explicitly off the table. It's A) a hackneyed plot device, B) the genengineered Zentraedi resistance to such was considerably stronger thousands of years before the events of the Robotech Saga, and C) it's completely out of character for the IoM to attempt such an action.
-Both Galaxies are considered to be an equivalent size, with identical resources, etc. As it happens, both forces are able to pull approximately 60% of their respective galaxy's resources.
-Both sides have their elite forces available. Grey Knights and Ultramarines (etc) for the IoM, and Queadluun-Rau's and Red Bioroids (no Invid Hunters!) for the Zents.


Information on the Zent war machine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zentradi
Zentraedi WarShips (http://www.kent.net/robotech/ships/index.shtml)
Zentraedi Mecha (http://www.kent.net/robotech/mecha/index.shtml)



The Zentraedi are one of those great villains of all time, the ultimate antagonist. They are a race of 40 foot giants, consumed with conquest and violence. Merciless warriors, they are relentless in combat and would rather die than acknowledge defeat. We can hate them because they are cold, cruel, and ruthless instruments of destruction....For they are victims of yet another race's mad design; artificially created, cloned, grown and indoctrinated into a short, bleak life of constant war and death.

The Zentraedi's strategy and tactics are simple and effective; overpower the enemy by sheer weight of numbers and raw explosive power. Too simple, you think? Perhaps, but this basic line of practice, supported by the high-tech weapons of Robotechnology and, quite literally, trillions of troops and war machines provided by the Robotech Masters, has proven to be successful, winning tactic for the Zentraedi. Of course, the cost in lives and equipment is often great, but it is a cost the Robotech Masters, at least until recently, could afford. Remember, all the Zentraedi are warriors, specifically created, genetically designed and totally indoctrinated for war. They neither give nor ask for mercy. They fight and keep fighting until the battle is won or they are slain. They do so without remorse, nor hesitation, for one expects to die in combat, that is their life.

The Zentraedi are destroyers. They attack with devastating speed, skill and power. The older, more cunning Zentraedi have learned to use their enemy's own compassion and fears against them, by playing up to such weakness and then crushing them when they've let down their guard. The ferocity and lack of gentle emotions in these giant warriors is intentionally instilled by their creators, the Robotech Masters.

To be fair, I don't actually think the Zents can pull it off. However, I think they come a lot closer than any rational *glares at Exalted* challenger thus far.

[Thangorodrim]

In a galactic scale conflict, who has the bigger and better starfleet more or less decides it, not so much ground combat, particularly in a War of annihilation scenario. Ultimate high ground and all that.

I seem to recall millions of ships and moon sized motherships for the Zentraedi ?

No idea on their firepower, but the links indicate max velocities of 0.16 OOM, which does put them below the max velocity of Imperial warvessels, so I suppose we can derive some info from that if it comes to it.

With equal industrial muscle, thats pretty much what it comes down to since even a planet crawling with ground troops is fodder to a starship.

[Swordguy]

Remember, if you wipe everything off the surface of a planet, you can't use it. It's take and hold - which means you can't go around wiping out entire planetary populations or every enemy on the planet. You've gotta get boots on the ground (regardless of how big those boots are) and get the enemy off yourself.

Even when Horus bombarded, virus-bombed, and then torched the entire surface of Istvaan III, there were survivors. (source: Galaxy in Flames, Black Library)

[Rutee]

To be fair, I don't actually think the Zents can pull it off. However, I think they come a lot closer than any rational *glares at Exalted* challenger thus far.

Now now, Realistic is not Rational. I don't know why people glare daggers at it just because one guy can easily down a red shirt army :smallbiggrin:

I dunno though. If I'm reading this right, IG retain their numbers advantage, right? 'cause, I don't think they can really do much to the Zentraedi if they're stuck with normal numbers.

And if I recall from the Robotech novels, the Zentraedi Fleet + the splinter force sent to capture the SDF-1 are about 6,200,000, right? Was that battleships, or total population numbers? I distinctly remember it saying "Fleet of 6 Million" though, so that's probably not the infantry count, even if one Infantry = 1 Mecha.

Oh, final note, several to beat the IoM have been found. I get the intent, but I'm not sure "Dethroning" is still necessary.

[Swordguy]

Oh, final note, several to beat the IoM have been found. I get the intent, but I'm not sure "Dethroning" is still necessary.

Meh, I don't pay all that much attention to the Vs. threads - I'm only posting this one because the Battletech one reminded me of Macross. If others besides Exalted have beaten the IoM without godlike beings or other cheese, I haven't noticed. Qs or similar entities just take the fun out of the discussion, and they're really just the plot team's deus ex machina-in-waiting.

There were two (technically three) Zentraedi Fleets sent after Earth. Breetai's Fleet of about 400k ships, Khyron's Fleet that reinforced Breetai (about 150k-ish), and Dolza's Grand Fleet that came to say "the heck with it" and wipe out everybody involved in the whole sorry mess - there were explicitly 4.8 million ships in the Grand Fleet.

Side note: this is what they could spare from fighting a life-or-death war with the Invid. It stands to reason, then, that it's not the greater part of their numbers.

So, no. The IG numbers advantage may not come into play here - you're talking at least 2 thousand of Zentraedi per ship (Robotech RPG and observed ship size in the cartoon), and about 5.5 million ships at a minimum, that that Masters could afford to lose because they weren't fighting Invid. Plus all the Zents that actually were fighting Invid. Plus the Robotech Masters Bioroid army itself.

As for Exalted - it's the whole "Perfect whatever" stuff that gets me annoyed. Oh look! I can walk through a star without even getting warm! I get it - you're basically playing demi-gods. I don't care. It annoys me, and I consider it to be poor game design for the PC to have the capability to say to the GM: "No. I don't care what you do - I can stop it."

[Rutee]

Meh, I don't pay all that much attention to the Vs. threads - I'm only posting this one because the Battletech one reminded me of Macross. If others besides Exalted have beaten the IoM without godlike beings or other cheese, I haven't noticed. Qs or similar entities just take the fun out of the discussion, and they're really just the plot team's deus ex machina-in-waiting.
Well it's not like the WH folks don't bring out THEIR godlikes in every thread until recently. It's rather irksome to constantly hear "Chaos explodes all their heads because they're unprotected Psykkers."


There were two (technically three) Zentraedi Fleets sent after Earth. Breetai's Fleet of about 400k ships, Khyron's Fleet that reinforced Breetai (about 150k-ish), and Dolza's Grand Fleet that came to say "the heck with it" and wipe out everybody involved in the whole sorry mess - there were explicitly 4.8 million ships in the Grand Fleet.
...I'm confused. Why were there so many references to Dolza's Six Million then? Or is that just me getting old?


Side note: this is what they could spare from fighting a life-or-death war with the Invid. It stands to reason, then, that it's not the greater part of their numbers.

So, no. The IG numbers advantage may not come into play here - you're talking at least 2 thousand of Zentraedi per ship (Robotech RPG and observed ship size in the cartoon), and about 5.5 million ships at a minimum, that that Masters could afford to lose because they weren't fighting Invid. Plus all the Zents that actually were fighting Invid. Plus the Robotech Masters Bioroid army itself.
Hm.. they've got about as much of the galaxy, no? Is there any reason to think that the Zentraedi would have significantly fewer numbers, or significantly higher ones? Do the Robotech Masters terraform planets? I imagine they'd have had to, if we're to see roughly equivalent population density (on a cosmic scale) on both sides. Larger people means they require more energy (I.E. food), which means you can't sustain as many people on one planet as you could if they were all Micronians, using the same techniques.

Now, as to the Bioroid army, why should the Zentraedi get that? Seriously, refresh my memory, it's clearly not that great here; It's Zentraedi vs., no?


As for Exalted - it's the whole "Perfect whatever" stuff that gets me annoyed. Oh look! I can walk through a star without even getting warm! I get it - you're basically playing demi-gods. I don't care. It annoys me, and I consider it to be poor game design for the PC to have the capability to say to the GM: "No. I don't care what you do - I can stop it."
That's an odd complaint; You don't think that causes GMs to start thinking outside the box, and to have combat defused in other directions? That tends to be the direction I've observed. And it wasn't touched on there, but there are tactical or story reasons to be incapable of using a Perfect (Compassion Flaw: Only when people you love are present. Temperance Flaw: Absolutely no movement, though you retain Dodge. Valor: You charge the biggest, baddest thing present. Conviction can't be spammed, IIRC.). And when Abyssals or antagonistic Solars come into play, it's not like the GM doesn't have equally perfect beings at hand. I don't think one can honestly say the introduction of Perfection as a mechanic is a bad idea. I promise you, it /works/. I can definitely see it being something one doesn't like, but it'd be difficult to say it's a bad mechanic.

I dunno, I suppose offhand, the system can't really work well with gamists. There's only so far you can break it. I dunno, maybe I'm assuming too much maturity on the part of the 'average' players (And when I say it, I usually include the GM; GMs are players too.) It would probably not work quite so well without people who in fact do flaunt their godlike power at every turn. Well, that's a bit of a given, since the setting punishes you for that.

[Swordguy]

Really, really sleepy. Short answers, then off to bed.



...I'm confused. Why were there so many references to Dolza's Six Million then? Or is that just me getting old?


It's a disconnect between books, comic books, and the show. I've seen a figure around 4.8 mill stated more often in more places, so I tend to go with that. The show stopped counting after 4 million, but the ships entering Earth's orbit stopped very quickly after that, so there didn't seem to be time for another 2 million ships to jump in. IIRC, there may have been additional vessels (totaling 6 million along with Dolza's main force) that DIDN'T jump to Earth with Dolza for the attack. That explains things neatly.



Now, as to the Bioroid army, why should the Zentraedi get that? Seriously, refresh my memory, it's clearly not that great here; It's Zentraedi vs., no?


They're all part of the same army. It's like the US Army SOGCOM. Even though they're specifically held completely separate from the regular Army, with different standards and rules, they're part of the US military employed by the same people. In this case, both the Bioroids and Zents are tools of the Robotech Masters. Same Army, different department.




I dunno, I suppose offhand, the system can't really work well with gamists. There's only so far you can break it. I dunno, maybe I'm assuming too much maturity on the part of the 'average' players (And when I say it, I usually include the GM; GMs are players too.) It would probably not work quite so well without people who in fact do flaunt their godlike power at every turn. Well, that's a bit of a given, since the setting punishes you for that.

Would love to talk about what I dislike in Exalted in another thread. Not this one.

K. Sleep now.

[Rutee]

It's a disconnect between books, comic books, and the show. I've seen a figure around 4.8 mill stated more often in more places, so I tend to go with that. The show stopped counting after 4 million, but the ships entering Earth's orbit stopped very quickly after that, so there didn't seem to be time for another 2 million ships to jump in. IIRC, there may have been additional vessels (totaling 6 million along with Dolza's main force) that DIDN'T jump to Earth with Dolza for the attack. That explains things neatly.
Sensical.




They're all part of the same army. It's like the US Army SOGCOM. Even though they're specifically held completely separate from the regular Army, with different standards and rules, they're part of the US military employed by the same people. In this case, both the Bioroids and Zents are tools of the Robotech Masters. Same Army, different department.
Nnn... I'm really loath to allow this for some reason. Were they under the command of the Zentraedi, or did they take their orders from the Robot Masters only?

I'm aware your tired, but just to reiterate: Population of the Zentraedi vs. IG conscripts needs to be accounted for. A small note to those not in the know; To our knowledge, EVERY Zentraedi is a military member. Not nominally, currently serving. Mostly fighting, but I suppose someone's gotta cook and such.



Would love to talk about what I dislike in Exalted in another thread. Not this one.
Is PM better?

[Closet_Skeleton]

How is a group of aliens with a battlefleet and faster than light travel that got defeated by a earth when it only had a single battleship and a pop concert supposed to defeat earth when it's the head of a giant empire that rules a galaxy?

[Rutee]

How is a group of aliens with a battlefleet and faster than light travel that got defeated by a earth when it only had a single battleship and a pop concert supposed to defeat earth when it's the head of a giant empire that rules a galaxy?

Earth had two Wave Motion Guns; One at Alaska, one on the SDF. That's what did the bulk of the killin' at the final battle for earth. And given that something like 80% of our industrial capacity was destroyed in that war, forcing the Earth to rely on the SDF-1 and Robotechnology, I'm not sure you can call that anything but a pyhrric victory. To my knowledge, the IoM doesn't have Wave Motion Guns.

Further, that was evidently nothing but a small fraction of the total Zentraedi forces.

[Hunter Noventa]

How is a group of aliens with a battlefleet and faster than light travel that got defeated by a earth when it only had a single battleship and a pop concert supposed to defeat earth when it's the head of a giant empire that rules a galaxy?

Also, the Zentraedi had been ordered to capture the batleship more or less intact. Given the fact that they slagged most of the Earth at the final battle, if that wasn't the case they would have easily destroyed the SDF-1 outright.

[sikyon]

Why the heck is Black Novel line taking precedence over game books? Novels of any sort are based on game book fluff anyways and game book fluff tends to be more consistent.

[Thangorodrim]

Why the heck is Black Novel line taking precedence over game books? Novels of any sort are based on game book fluff anyways and game book fluff tends to be more consistent.


Game book background changes with every edition!

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well it's not like the WH folks don't bring out THEIR godlikes in every thread until recently. It's rather irksome to constantly hear "Chaos explodes all their heads because they're unprotected Psykkers."

In my defense I've only ever trotted out the walking deus-ex-machina of WH 40k when the other side has. :smalltongue: Can't say the same thing for anybody else though.



Yeah...don't know much else though so I'm gonna stay out of this one. Though the penalties and such for 'abandoning the army' policies for both sides seem remarkably familiar...

[sikyon]

Game book background changes with every edition!

And new novels are based on new game books.

Your point being....

[Thangorodrim]

And new novels are based on new game books.

Your point being....

What ?

Novels aren't based specifically on any new army books normally, and its telling that when something does have a specific source, i.e. DoW books, the Dark Heresy tie-in, they don't read like someone played a game of Dark Heresy before they wrote it.

My point would be that claiming the army books etc are more consistent is dubious.



Remember, if you wipe everything off the surface of a planet, you can't use it. It's take and hold - which means you can't go around wiping out entire planetary populations or every enemy on the planet. You've gotta get boots on the ground (regardless of how big those boots are) and get the enemy off yourself.

Certainly, but planets are robust, and if you've got vast armies to deal with, and vast armies equal vast targets, then only a fool wouldn't lob a few multi-megaton rounds into the game.

Certainly it seems to be the Imperiums MO for orbital support in really large scale battles,i.e. Maccrage or Terra, both which refer to "megaton" yield weaponry being deployed.

Hit the enemy from orbit, reduce them to holding fortified positions or scattered remnants, dispatch appropriate forces to (siege regiments or whatever) to polish everything off and move on.

Of course, first you have to take on the enemy fleet, and I have no information on their firepower, but they would appear to generally outnumber Imperial committments in space thus far.

Of course, this is with thousands of wars going on, hostile races everywhere etc. A united Imperium without external threats would be proportionally more capable I would imagine.

[Poison_Fish]

Is PM better?

I'd actually like to hear about this as well. I'm of course assuming you've read into the game before making a claim of poor game design though. (I will give to white wolf for having very poor editing, and some bad mechanics).

Also, come on 40K people, stop being bitter about the Exalted thing. You can't have the spotlight everyday.

But in terms of this thread, I do see it as a much more fair battle. I also think the IoM is a lot more prepared for a war then earth was in robotech. The problem I see though is the IoM is quite spread out as it is. However, assuming non-interference and a bit of luck from the warp, I think the IoM has got it.

Of course, my question, who strikes first. In most cases that I'm running through my head, it's the Zentraedi. But so as long as they don't start off anywhere to vital, and with the core of the IoM being hard to reach, the IoM should have enough time to gather it's power.

[Rutee]

A note, after checking Wikipedia, can we assume the number of Zentraedi in Macross is roughly equivalent to the number that's in Robotech, given that they're the same thing, +2 other series and some edits? If so, that'd list Dolza's fleet as less then 1% of the available forces. I don't genuinely think WH40k can actually win, tbh. With their insanely slow deployment speeds and what I imagine is faster 'breeding' times for the Zentraedi (Or can the Robot Masters not reinforce them with clones? That'd alter the playing field pretty vastly). If the numbers aren't vastly in favor of the IG, that'd tell me the Zentraedi have it; You'd be hard pressed to convince me that IG troopers are worth anything near as much as one Zentraedi.

...Oh, another question, Swordguy. Are we to assume the Robot Masters have the SDF-1? Not that the Zentraedi could use it either way, I'm only asking to check on fuel supplies.

[Hunter Noventa]

...Oh, another question, Swordguy. Are we to assume the Robot Masters have the SDF-1? Not that the Zentraedi could use it either way, I'm only asking to check on fuel supplies.

He did mention that they were at the height of their power, so I'd say it's safe to assume they have the protoculture factory on their side.

It'd be nice if we could compare the crunch of the two games..if only Palladium had gotten the rights to make a 40k book. Of course, by the crunch of the robotech book, the reflex cannon on the SDF-1 doesn't even have a damage number, it just destroys everything. I'm not sure how it's main weapon compares tot hose found on the Zentraedi ships, but judging by their reaction when it's used upon them they are a little outmatched by it.

[Swordguy]

He did mention that they were at the height of their power, so I'd say it's safe to assume they have the protoculture factory on their side.

It'd be nice if we could compare the crunch of the two games..if only Palladium had gotten the rights to make a 40k book. Of course, by the crunch of the robotech book, the reflex cannon on the SDF-1 doesn't even have a damage number, it just destroys everything. I'm not sure how it's main weapon compares tot hose found on the Zentraedi ships, but judging by their reaction when it's used upon them they are a little outmatched by it.

Nope. The Palladium RPG book and the animators notes state that the vast majority of the Zent fleet has a similar gun. It's what they used to bombard Earth. Against a planet, remember, the gun doesn't destroy everything, it just leaves a mile-wide crater.

And the Masters have the protoculture factory for sure. I'm not sure about the SDF-1...I'm trying to figure out if it counts as a special character.

[Rutee]

Nope. The Palladium RPG book and the animators notes state that the vast majority of the Zent fleet has a similar gun. It's what they used to bombard Earth. Against a planet, remember, the gun doesn't destroy everything, it just leaves a mile-wide crater.

And the Masters have the protoculture factory for sure. I'm not sure about the SDF-1...I'm trying to figure out if it counts as a special character.

I'm not trying to get the SDF-1 into the war itself. I'm merely confirming that they have the Matrix, and thus, can't be 'starved out' by running out of fuel.

[Hunter Noventa]

Nope. The Palladium RPG book and the animators notes state that the vast majority of the Zent fleet has a similar gun. It's what they used to bombard Earth. Against a planet, remember, the gun doesn't destroy everything, it just leaves a mile-wide crater.

All right, I'm just remembering the scene from the show where Exedore goes on the diplomatic mission and goes on about 'destruction waves' and the like. Probably a case of bad dialogue and translation. And of course the main guns don't bore hols through planets, just other ships for the most part.

And SDF-1 would likely be a very average ship when manned by Zentraedi, in fact I'd say it's more of a science vessel than a warship, compared to the rest of the fleet. It just happens to have the protoculture matrix on board.

[Eita]

The IoM has what appears to be Wave-Motion Guns when they're used against the surface of a planet.

They're called Lances and they have destroyed mountains in a single shot.

[Rutee]

The IoM has what appears to be Wave-Motion Guns when they're used against the surface of a planet.

They're called Lances and they have destroyed mountains in a single shot.

What happens when they're fired on fleets? You can't really call yourself a true wave motion gun if you don't cut a vast swath of death across the engagement.

[Hunter Noventa]

What happens when they're fired on fleets? You can't really call yourself a true wave motion gun if you don't cut a vast swath of death across the engagement.

The Imperium's Lances are the most powerful direct fire weapons they have I think. The only thigns capable of causing more damage are specialized torpedoes and the innaccurate but deadly nova cannon. I'd say the lance is on par with the heavy laser armament of most Zentraedi ships.

In mechanics terms, a Lance has a 50% chance of inflicting one 'hit' on a ship. In this case the average cruiser has 8 hits, whilst an escort ship has 1.

So no, not a Wave Motion Gun. The only Wave motion Guns in 40k fleet wise are pretty much unavailable to the Imperium, being that one is the Armageddon Gun on the destoryed Planet Killer, and the other is an Awakened Blackstone Fortress, of which none remain if I recall.

[Swordguy]

The Imperium's Lances are the most powerful direct fire weapons they have I think. The only thigns capable of causing more damage are specialized torpedoes and the innaccurate but deadly nova cannon. I'd say the lance is on par with the heavy laser armament of most Zentraedi ships.

In mechanics terms, a Lance has a 50% chance of inflicting one 'hit' on a ship. In this case the average cruiser has 8 hits, whilst an escort ship has 1.


You could make the argument that the fact only 1 hit is dealt is due to superior protective technologies on the part of the IoM. The way to discover that is to compare the effects of both weapons against a "control" target, like an Earth-density planet. If they have similar effects against the control, but wipe out a ship in one universe in 1 hit and take 8+ hits to kill a ship in another universe, then the difference must be in the damage capacity of the ships.

[Rutee]

Interesting. So the output on a Lance battery would be roughly equivalent to Robotech's WMGs, but they don't affect as much of the engagement field?

Another question: Do we have a fluff example of what happens when Lance Batteries strike IoM naval ships? And how common are Lance Batteries? 'cause the space fight just got lots more interesting.

Further, what's IoM Point Defense like? Do their navies carry fighters?

[tyckspoon]

Interesting. So the output on a Lance battery would be roughly equivalent to Robotech's WMGs, but they don't affect as much of the engagement field?

That sounds roughly fair. I feel that simply saying '50% chance to score a hit' undervalues the lances- what they're actually doing is ignoring armor, and 50%/rolling 4+ just happens to be the best chance just about *everything* has to get a damaging hit in Battlefleet Gothic. Normal guns and torpedos also have to roll against the target's armor value, which can require sixes against the most heavily armored quadrants of the ship. Lance batteries are mounted on most ships of Cruiser class or larger, typically on the prow. There are some escort-size ships that use them too, but those can't be assumed as escorts are typically only equipped with one weapon type (out of gun battery/lance/torpedo bays) and it hasn't been specified which ship patterns are involved.



Further, what's IoM Point Defense like? Do their navies carry fighters?

About the best I can say on point defense is that it's there. Battlefleet Gothic does not bother to draw differences between types of weapons used for point defense, so I don't know if the defense turrets are primarily energy or physical munitions if that should happen to make any difference. I don't think they'd be able to bring down the typical Macross Missile Massacre, but I'm also not sure if the missiles involved in said Bullet Hell attack have enough power to do significant damage to an Imperium ship.

Carriers exist and carry both fighters and anti-ship bombers. These are fairly hefty craft in their own right, the scale of 40k being what it is.

[Swordguy]

Interesting. So the output on a Lance battery would be roughly equivalent to Robotech's WMGs, but they don't affect as much of the engagement field?

Another question: Do we have a fluff example of what happens when Lance Batteries strike IoM naval ships? And how common are Lance Batteries? 'cause the space fight just got lots more interesting.

Further, what's IoM Point Defense like? Do their navies carry fighters?

Imperial ships tend to carry either 0, 4 (some cruisers), or 6 (battleships) lances. I think a Retribution Battleship carries 9.

However, IoM lances can miss. I've yet to see or hear about the WMG from Robotech missing its target in any official material. Ever. WMG beams in Robotech hit an area about a mile in circumfrence. Lances seem to fire smaller beams, since a Firestorm Lance Frigate is 3km long, a half-kilometer wide and mounts 3 forward-firing lances. Whatever is in the path of a WMG dies, as long as it's starship scale. Lances clearly don't do that, but, again, it may be due to IoM protective technologies.

IoM has point defense - I'd say it's about equivalent in volume and power to Robotech-level stuff. It's not very detailed in the fluff. Their navies absolutely carry fighter craft. And bombers. Zentraedi carry fighters as well, as well as heavy missile-armed battlepods that fulfill the bomber role, as well as incredibly maneuverable Queadluun-Rau Battle Armor (which can, at a speed of 900+kph, make a 100+ degree turn with zero intertial effects).

[Penguinizer]

As a note, IoM do have something like wave-motion guns. They have 2(?) working (if I remember correctly) blackstone fortresses. Each housing 4 warp-cannons. Which happen to create a rip in space, releasing energy from the immaterium. I'd say they also possess more smaller weaponry.

Although I may be mistaken with the fact that the things may be in the possession of chaos.

[Swordguy]

As a note, IoM do have something like wave-motion guns. They have 2(?) working (if I remember correctly) blackstone fortresses. Each housing 4 warp-cannons. Which happen to create a rip in space, releasing energy from the immaterium. I'd say they also possess more smaller weaponry.

Although I may be mistaken with the fact that the things may be in the possession of chaos.

No, the IoM has nominal possession of two. And they are impressively badass. However, they're immobile, so they can only influence events in two star systems, neither of which is all that critical (a la Terra, Ultramar, Cadia, etc)

[Zenos]

Well, I don't know if it's a wave motion gun, but have anybody considered the Nova Cannon mounted on some imperial vessels?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Larger people means they require more energy (I.E. food), which means you can't sustain as many people on one planet as you could if they were all Micronians, using the same techniques.
It is mentioned somewhere in the novels, I believe, that many Zentraedi tools and food items are made at micronian size then increased in size the same way Zentraedi once were. Metal is a limited resource, protoculture is not.


IIRC, there may have been additional vessels (totaling 6 million along with Dolza's main force) that DIDN'T jump to Earth with Dolza for the attack. That explains things neatly.
A lot of Dolza's fleet didn't jump with him. It was Dolza's ship and its contents, and a few of his close admirals and their sub-sections of his fleet. Dolza's ship just happened to have a ridiculous number of ships inside it.


Certainly, but planets are robust, and if you've got vast armies to deal with, and vast armies equal vast targets, then only a fool wouldn't lob a few multi-megaton rounds into the game.
This is true. It should also be noted the Zentraedi can live on planets that are basically burnt out husks of smoky days. They've been doing it for a very, very long time against the Invid.


Hit the enemy from orbit, reduce them to holding fortified positions or scattered remnants, dispatch appropriate forces to (siege regiments or whatever) to polish everything off and move on.
Zentraedi don't die like other things do. They're every bit as genetically made for war as Ultramarines, but they're 40 feet tall and funny colours, just to make them freakier lookin'.


Of course, first you have to take on the enemy fleet, and I have no information on their firepower, but they would appear to generally outnumber Imperial committments in space thus far.
Their average craft length is something along the lines of one mile long, with main guns and a large number of defense batteries and a very powerful main gun. Additionally, they have a massive number of small, extremely mobile fighters in the form of battlepods, which can function in space and on the ground, as well as inside ships. Finally, Zentraedi warships are often described as somewhat organic in appearance, and seemingly in practice, where they use their nigh-inexhaustible protoculture furnaces to heal themselves in the course of a battle. If you want to defeat a Zentraedi warship, chances are you're going to have to one-shot the thing or focus a ton of force on it. Which is why WMGS that can one-shot wide swaths of enemy ships are the weapon of the day.


However, IoM lances can miss. I've yet to see or hear about the WMG from Robotech missing its target in any official material. Ever. WMG beams in Robotech hit an area about a mile in circumfrence.
Which is also why they destroy ships so damned well.


Lances seem to fire smaller beams, since a Firestorm Lance Frigate is 3km long, a half-kilometer wide and mounts 3 forward-firing lances. Whatever is in the path of a WMG dies, as long as it's starship scale. Lances clearly don't do that, but, again, it may be due to IoM protective technologies.
I think it's more due to the size of the beam. They break through the armour at a certain, probably large, point. WMGs are wider around than most ships, this means the hole in the ship they make is the ship. This is because the Zentraedi ships have a chance of liming away with that hole and waiting for it to patch up.

[QUOTE=Swordguy;3876350IoM has point defense - I'd say it's about equivalent in volume and power to Robotech-level stuff. It's not very detailed in the fluff. Their navies absolutely carry fighter craft. And bombers. Zentraedi carry fighters as well, as well as heavy missile-armed battlepods that fulfill the bomber role, as well as incredibly maneuverable Queadluun-Rau Battle Armor (which can, at a speed of 900+kph, make a 100+ degree turn with zero intertial effects).[/QUOTE]
I don't know too much about 40K fluff, but skill of pilots should probably come into play. The Zentraedi are pretty damn good at what they do.

Also, I'd like to bring up that the Imperium is fighting a battle against the Nids for not too long, and thinsgs don't look good, from what I understand. The Zentraedi faught for much longer against the Invid, who are like the Nids with normal 40K tech. And with the protoculture matrix, they still would've had a fighting chance.

[Rutee]

Actually, Robotech WMGs are significantly wider then one mile. Remember, these are effective weapons /in space/. Sci Fi Writers have no Sense of Scale, after all.

Moving on...


About the best I can say on point defense is that it's there. Battlefleet Gothic does not bother to draw differences between types of weapons used for point defense, so I don't know if the defense turrets are primarily energy or physical munitions if that should happen to make any difference. I don't think they'd be able to bring down the typical Macross Missile Massacre, but I'm also not sure if the missiles involved in said Bullet Hell attack have enough power to do significant damage to an Imperium ship.
If I'm not mistaken, the Missiles had enough power to puncture the armor of their own ships (At least, I assume that the missiles used by Earth and the Zentraedi are roughly equivalent). Even if they can't inflict more then superficial damage in theory, they should be capable of disabling the various guns on an IoM ship.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Missile Massacres were used for just that, and primarily tactical purposes. They don't do much damage in robotech, either. You just use a lot of them. Some get through, hitting valuable targets. Also, they distract defensive batteries from shooting at you as they attempt to shoot at the missiles, and such.

[Thangorodrim]

Nope. The Palladium RPG book and the animators notes state that the vast majority of the Zent fleet has a similar gun. It's what they used to bombard Earth. Against a planet, remember, the gun doesn't destroy everything, it just leaves a mile-wide crater.

I don't know which gun this is refering to, but you'd need about 8 megatons for a mile wide crater if you were just setting off a nuke. (obviously I've no idea what the hell the gun is, how long it takes to do this damage, what an impact even looks like ?)

Any info on what the gun shot at, maybe a picture/rough estimate of the depth of the crater, and an idea of how long it took to blast said crater ?

Similarly for most of the Zent stuff, its not actually impossible to get rough OOM for weaponry, particularly if we have mass numbers, dimensions and stuff like that for the targets.

Rough google research shows there are about half a dozen different versions of the setting as well, just to make stuff really simple.


Another question: Do we have a fluff example of what happens when Lance Batteries strike IoM naval ships? And how common are Lance Batteries? 'cause the space fight just got lots more interesting.

Lance batteries aren't really Wave-motion guns from what I've seen, they are highly focussed, concentrating firepower on smaller areas. WM guns would appear to engulf ships with cross sections of hundreds of meters even at close ranges.

Imperial and "chaos" design Lance batteries are typically a sort of hybrid laser/particle beam weapon, "concentrated solar flares" intended to deal with the stupidly thick armour you can find on 40k vessels.

Cruiser and B-ship weight Lances have been described as cutting escorts (<3km) in half, stuff like that. They fire in sustained volleys mostly, but there are some versions that are pulsed. 20 seconds or "seconds" basically.

The firepower numbers in BFG don't really correlate to the number of actual guns on most models, and you can get turrets that appear to be of similar magnitude to a single turret in a broadside of 4, which have a power of 3. (obviously power generation is an issue).

As High c-fractional or C speed weapons, they are extremely accurate.


Further, what's IoM Point Defense like? Do their navies carry fighters?

Imperial vessels point defence ranges from multi-megaton nukes, vast guns firing shrapnel shells which produce mono-molecular slivers to laser clusters.

"final" point defense is described as a "gridwork" of weaponry, classed as heavy for ground troops studding the hull, i.e. lasers, autocannons, flechette launchers, plasma guns etc.

The Imperiums fleets include carrier vessels at every level of operations, from 1km and less, to 8km. I can only speculate on the hardly touched open rare ships that we occasionally see or read mentions of, some pretty stupendous in size. from 20km+ to 100s.

Thinking about carriers reminds me of the Fortress Worlds in the Sabbat cluster, similar to the blackstone Fortresses, these are co-opted alien facilities taken over by the Imperium.

One example from the Sabbat worlds rulebook possessed a "planet killer" grade superheavy gun that could shoot things on the other side of the system, miles thick armour, and could launch 75000 fighter/bombers.

Space fighters range from adapted atmospheric fighters, to stuff hundreds of tons in mass, with batteries of lasers, huge titan killer plasma guns etc. Bombers are typically bigger,and Torpedo bombers do what it says on the tin.



Well, I don't know if it's a wave motion gun, but have anybody considered the Nova Cannon mounted on some imperial vessels?

Nova cannon obviously have a slightly different mechanic, I think combined with large axially mounted lance batteries and torpedos they are a suitable analogue.

Refire rates range from 5-30 minutes, the variables being how advanced the ship is, how well trained the crew are etc. Nova cannons fire 50m diameter shells at a high percentage of lightspeed, and its warhead is the equal of a "dozen plasma bombs" and affects an area the size of a "small moon".


It is mentioned somewhere in the novels, I believe, that many Zentraedi tools and food items are made at micronian size then increased in size the same way Zentraedi once were. Metal is a limited resource, protoculture is not.


Presumably some sort of energy-mass conversion technobabble provides the extra mass ?


This is true. It should also be noted the Zentraedi can live on planets that are basically burnt out husks of smoky days. They've been doing it for a very, very long time against the Invid.

Both sides should have the technology to live on and fight on scorched off planets given their technology level. Thats why I think orbital bombardment should be the order of the day.

An easier method might be a genetically targeted plague, if the Imperium wants to claim worlds.


Zentraedi don't die like other things do. They're every bit as genetically made for war as Ultramarines, but they're 40 feet tall and funny colours, just to make them freakier lookin'.

If it bleeds ?


Their average craft length is something along the lines of one mile long, with main guns and a large number of defense batteries and a very powerful main gun

This is basically the same size or slightly longer than an Imperial Cobra class destroyer, which is the smallest line warship in the current game setting. They do use smaller vessels, corvettes, gunships etc which are FTL capable, but they are basically too small to make a difference.

Cobras usually have laser batteries, the previously mentioned point defences, and have the usual Imperial shields and heavy armour proportional to their size.

They can also carry torpedos.


Finally, Zentraedi warships are often described as somewhat organic in appearance, and seemingly in practice,

Are they actually organic, or is it advanced tech ?


Which is also why they destroy ships so damned well.

To be honest, having a huge area of effect is actually a trade off, pumping that much power through a smaller area reduces your affected target area, but ramps up watts/m2.

In space, with a truly stupendous amount of, well, space, to cover its not so hot.


Also, I'd like to bring up that the Imperium is fighting a battle against the Nids for not too long, and thinsgs don't look good, from what I understand. The Zentraedi faught for much longer against the Invid, who are like the Nids with normal 40K tech. And with the protoculture matrix, they still would've had a fighting chance.

How do the Invid compare to Nids as far as numbers go ?


Even if they can't inflict more then superficial damage in theory, they should be capable of disabling the various guns on an IoM ship.

Basic "missile launchers" are part of the wide range of weaponry considered "weapons batteries" by the Imperium/BFG ruleset, they are interdicted by shields normally.

The Imperium uses much large ordnance in the form of "torpedoes" . One anti-shipping torp is described as 200ft long with a plasma warhead. They are typically heavily armoured and penetrate Imperial shields due to a combination of lower absolute velocity, and/or penetration aids allowing them to pass through Void shields.

They combine initial penetration charges with a "kicker" charge that fires the main warhead deep into an enemy target.

They've also been know to use cluster munitions to saturate point defences, one such type of Torpedo is described containing high megaton warheads adding up to roughly 600+ gigatons.

This ,in a rudimentary fashion can be used to estimate the firepower of similar sized anti-shipping torps.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Any info on what the gun shot at, maybe a picture/rough estimate of the depth of the crater, and an idea of how long it took to blast said crater ?
It's hard to tell what one ship could do since they used a lot of them in a very Shock and Awe sort of overkill. Back during the invid War, flagships that kept firing for a while could destroy planets by just shooting until the crater went down to the core. Presumably, the ships fired just long enough to eliminate most or all life in the their section of the world.


Rough google research shows there are about half a dozen different versions of the setting as well, just to make stuff really simple.
The only confusion with this should be between which Anime to pick, between the OVA things and the series. I believe we're going by the series, since Love, Do You Remember? and such things were largely Author Tracts.


The Imperiums fleets include carrier vessels at every level of operations, from 1km and less, to 8km. I can only speculate on the hardly touched open rare ships that we occasionally see or read mentions of, some pretty stupendous in size. from 20km+ to 100s.
Zentraedi have a few flagships, apparently, around a 1,000 miles in size. This is after they were depleted from the Invid War. Depending on which sources and estimates you take, there could be as many as one hundred by the After-the-Fall time when the Robotech series occurs; more flagships are mentioned, so we know this isn't the only one, and this is 1% or so of the Zentraedi force by many estimates. If the rest of the force is proportional, the Zentraedi in sucktown have a hundred. I don't think that's the case. I think it's more like four or five.


One example from the Sabbat worlds rulebook possessed a "planet killer" grade superheavy gun that could shoot things on the other side of the system, miles thick armour, and could launch 75000 fighter/bombers.
You have a Zentraedi flagship. Only those can spacefold, effectively jumping from any point in the universe to any other.


Presumably some sort of energy-mass conversion technobabble provides the extra mass ?
Yeah, no, not really. "It's Protoculture," pretty much explains it. I mean, that could be why it works, if you'd like to think of it that way, but there really isn't a canon explanation.


Both sides should have the technology to live on and fight on scorched off planets given their technology level. Thats why I think orbital bombardment should be the order of the day.
I meant, like, irradiated, actively poisonous worlds, although I would guess the Imperium could do something about that, too.


An easier method might be a genetically targeted plague, if the Imperium wants to claim worlds.
The Zentraedi are cloned. They could "evolve" around it long before it got enough of them to matter, probably.


If it bleeds ?
Oh, they can die, they just don't do it as easy as other things. Dolza or Breetai lives unprotected in the vaccuum of space for a pretty long time and isn't even really all that strained when he comes in. I'd imagine Ultramarines and the like can do that, as well.


This is basically the same size or slightly longer than an Imperial Cobra class destroyer, which is the smallest line warship in the current game setting. They do use smaller vessels, corvettes, gunships etc which are FTL capable, but they are basically too small to make a difference.
Is a Cobra FTL capable? I couldn't tell from this.


Are they actually organic, or is it advanced tech ?
The ships, themselves, aren't organic. Protoculture, however, is evidently a semi-living force that repairs the ships on its own. The vast amount of protoculture they use is also why the ships seem to "breathe."


To be honest, having a huge area of effect is actually a trade off, pumping that much power through a smaller area reduces your affected target area, but ramps up watts/m2.
Yes, well, they have quite enough power within their wide area without narrowing. Running out of energy really is not a problem.


In space, with a truly stupendous amount of, well, space, to cover its not so hot.
Well, no, but compared to the size of a ship, if it hits, the ship probably won't survive the blast.


How do the Invid compare to Nids as far as numbers go ?
I really have no idea. They're pretty damn numerous, from what I remember, after the Zentraedi have been fighting them for a very long time, by the time humans get involved. I doubt they're quite as numerous, just from what I've heard about the Nids, but they'd probably outnumber IoM or the Zentraedi. I never paid as much attention to the Invid cycles, so someone else can probably fill in here more than me.

Also, some mention of deployment speed was made, I believe. How slow are the IoM, really?

[Eita]

The IoM deals with irradiated and actively poisonous worlds. Mars, Armageddon, and pretty much every single Forge World. Space Marines can survive in the vacuum as long as they want. They just need to enter a self-induced coma. The Cobra is FTL capable.

Can we get an image of what the surface of the planet looked like before and after the WMG hit?

Were it not for the chocking bureaucracy of the Administratum, the IoM would actually move fairly quickly. Just look at the Space Marines.

[Rutee]

Were it not for the choking bureaucracy of the Administratum, the IoM would actually move fairly quickly. Just look at the Space Marines.

And yet, they must deal with that Bureacracy. I honestly have to wonder how a Space Marine fares against a Zentraedi in a Battlepod.. 'cause if they were evenly matched...

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Dolza survives and is active in space. He doesn't go comatose at all, he holds on to a moving starship and crawls along it before breaking in through a window designed to withstand starship combat.

With the beaurocracy, how long would it take a sizable fleet to get to a planet? Because as it stands, the Zentraedi can move their whole fleet effectively at once. 60% of the Zentraedi fleet versus a few percent of the IoM fleet over and over would be a pretty one-sided war.

[Rutee]

With the beaurocracy, how long would it take a sizable fleet to get to a planet? Because as it stands, the Zentraedi can move their whole fleet effectively at once. 60% of the Zentraedi fleet versus a few percent of the IoM fleet over and over would be a pretty one-sided war.

From what I understand, assuming no warp vagaries that cause fleets to respond to distress signals years after they're heard anyway, it can take a really long time to organize responses.

[Eita]

Most of the time they follow the plot, getting there in the nick of time. Other times they get their so late that the world has already been reduced to ashes. Sometimes they get their before the enemy even decides to go after the world. The Administratum is usually the reason for #2. That, or the Warp. For most important worlds, the response is lightning fast as they know that if that world falls they're in trouble.

Picture the Vogons, except with an express lane for really important stuff.

[LBO]

No, the IoM has nominal possession of two. And they are impressively badass. However, they're immobile, so they can only influence events in two star systems, neither of which is all that critical (a la Terra, Ultramar, Cadia, etc)
Don't know where you got that from, but post-Gothic War the Imperium has no Blackstone Fortresses ("Talismans of Vaul"). Before the Gothic War, there were six in the Gothic sector. At the end of the Gothic War, four self-destructed and Abaddon escaped into the warp with the other two, one of which may have since been destroyed by the Necrons in the Eye of Terror campaign. The Imperium has lots of similarly amazing space hardware like Ramillies star forts and the like.


Is a Cobra FTL capable? I couldn't tell from this.
Yes, but it's Imperial FTL, which means the journey might take minutes, might take centuries, might result in the entire crew going insane/being eaten by daemons, might result in them ending up in the wrong part of the galaxy completely. This applies to everything the Imperium has with a warp engine, which is just about all their ships (relatively small, non-FTL warships are called "attack craft" or "ordnance", are carried aboard other vessels and work like carrier-borne aircraft.)


Also, some mention of deployment speed was made, I believe. How slow are the IoM, really?
Depends on the priority, and the "vagaries of the Warp" (as mentioned above). If it's a letter to the Administratum asking what plough you should use for the summer, it will probably take two thousand years (though the answer will be meticulously researched, accurate and delivered to your descendants). If it's a request for troop mobilisation. If it's a crusade, or the defence of an entire sector or similar, then the warmaster or lord commander or whatever orders it done on pain of death, and it gets done, especially if they call in a favour with the Inquisition or something.

The Marines, because they're mostly self-sufficient (and, basically, do whatever the hell they like), are often faster reacting but less dependable, whereas if you order the Guard or the Navy to do something, they'll do it but it might take forever (because repairing and recrewing something the size of an Imperial cruiser, even working a thousand servitors to death in the process, can take years). Problem with a gothic-SF navy is, it's cool as all hell but it takes a while to get moving.

[Eita]

Good thing is is that there's a ton of cruisers.

[Rutee]

Yeah, but there's a bootload of Zentraedi too, is the thing. And their strategic mobility is apparently faster, on average, as well as safer.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

If the Zentraedi are into something enough to send 60% of their forces to it, they're not going to screw around. They will probably spacefold in all 60%, essentially at once or less than hours apart, and take out a planet. Then fold somewhere else , not necessarily the closest planet, because they can do what the hell they want, and why do the obvious, stupid thing so the Imperium can prepare. If the Imperium takes as long as it seems like, the Zentraedi would just nickle-and-dime them to death by vastly outnumbering one section of their force at a time and being gone by the time the Imperium responded. A full-scale, "fair" fight seems like it'd be damn close, but the deployment limitations of the Imperium might cripple them.

[Thangorodrim]

It's hard to tell what one ship could do since t
hey used a lot of them in a very Shock and Awe sort of overkill. Back during the invid War, flagships that kept firing for a while could destroy planets by just shooting until the crater went down to the core. Presumably, the ships fired just long enough to eliminate most or all life in the their section of the world.

Destroy would be a subjective term, since unless you blast most of the matter away from a planet, vapourise it/whatever the planet will still remain.

Duration is really key here, since you can work out how much energy it might take to blast through to an earth type planets core, but you'd have to know the duration of the attack.

As it stands someone has posted an example that equates one of these main guns impacts with multi-megaton explosions.

Its actually less powerful than an Ordinatus Gehenna (superheavy ground unit)


The only confusion with this should be between which Anime to pick, between the OVA things and the series. I believe we're going by the series, since Love, Do You Remember? and such things were largely Author Tracts.

So this is the Robotech series we are talking about ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech


Zentraedi have a few flagships, apparently, around a 1,000 miles in size.

Only one or two FTL ships of that size are ever really explicitly described for the Imperium, they do tend to have battle-stations and defensive networks around valuable worlds, including at least one Ring (i.e. space station that encircles the planet) at Hydra Cortadus.


You have a Zentraedi flagship. Only those can spacefold, effectively jumping from any point in the universe to any other.

Universe, or galaxy ? Whats the actual range of Zentraedi FTL, duration etc.


Yeah, no, not really. "It's Protoculture," pretty much explains it. I mean, that could be why it works, if you'd like to think of it that way, but there really isn't a canon explanation.

Well, there would have to be significant extra mass added in somehow.


I meant, like, irradiated, actively poisonous worlds, although I would guess the Imperium could do something about that, too.

well, they can build sub-crustal cities and facilities, as well as stuff at the bottom of oceans of acid, and any number of deathworlds. One planet, Krieg was actually hit by several days of self inflicted nuclear bombardment and is still occupied and used as a source of highly effective troops in vast quantities compared to some other planets.

Irradiated, actively poisonous worlds are often created by the Imperium as a byproduct of their industrial activities.


The Zentraedi are cloned. They could "evolve" around it long before it got enough of them to matter, probably.

I'm not sure what you mean, simply being cloned doesn't let you evolve around anything, the wikipedia page also makes reference to the Zent not actually understanding their tech in a fashion akin to the Posleen of John ringo's aldenataverse, stuff works, but don't expect anyone to actually alter it.

(this is similar to the tech situation in the Imperium, except for the existence of the Ad-mech)


The Imperium also uses short lived omnophagic biological weaponry which kills every living thing on a planet and the payload also generates various compounds that mean even sealed armour systems can be compromised.


Oh, they can die, they just don't do it as easy as other things. Dolza or Breetai lives unprotected in the vaccuum of space for a pretty long time and isn't even really all that strained when he comes in. I'd imagine Ultramarines and the like can do that, as well.

*shrug* On the scale of things, its not really important, surviving a space walk suggests oxygen reservoirs/recycling/whatever, possibly some way of covering exposed mucous membranes and a resistence to extremes of temperature. Ultimately they still die when shot with Robotech guns, which are certainly not proportionally more powerful than 40k firepower.


Is a Cobra FTL capable? I couldn't tell from this.

Yes, although there is a cobra gunship which isn't.

Imperial worlds also tend to have non-FTL defensive vessels.


The ships, themselves, aren't organic. Protoculture, however, is evidently a semi-living force that repairs the ships on its own. The vast amount of protoculture they use is also why the ships seem to "breathe."

any images/quantification of it ? (i.e some examples of regen etc)


Yes, well, they have quite enough power within their wide area without narrowing. Running out of energy really is not a problem.


Against other Robotech universe stuff yeah, but I don't think thats going to be the case against Imperial vessels judging by the firepower examples for Zent vessels.


Well, no, but compared to the size of a ship, if it hits, the ship probably won't survive the blast.

Indeed, but when you are targetting something which has a small cross-section, particularly a larger prow cross-section relative to most of its length, its not going to be as effective.


Also, some mention of deployment speed was made, I believe. How slow are the IoM, really?

Imperial deployment works on a sliding scale, as they are currently engaged with thousands and thousands of fronts against basically everyone else. Minor raids, pirates etc are basically ignored and dealt with by local forces, unless they have pacts/agreements with semi-independant organisations within the Imperium like the astartes, Inquisition, Ad-mech etc.

It basically boils down to common sense, a hugetastic invasion by millions of ships gets emergency responses, smaller invasions get local forces.

With a single enemy and a single major vector of attack (towards the other guys) its a completely different situation.

One map described a range of 6 months to 40 years to cross the galaxies longest axis. Imperial warp travel is affected by the disruption of warpspace by the Four Powers, without them interfering its going to be an order of magnitude more effective and safe.

There is also for both sides the fun of exploring an entirely new galaxy.

As far Protoculture goes, the Robotech masters are apparently running out of the stuff ?

I'm inclined to consider the Zent naval forces as qualitively inferior to Imperial space assets, 4 million ships firing on one planet for X amount of time appear to kill 75% of the human race, sustained bombardments from hundreds of Imperial vessels rips vast continent sized chunks from the Planet Caliban, cracks the crust of various planets, Earth itself suffered planetary bombardment in support of the Traitor offensive to such an extent that its tectonic plates cracked and ruptured.

A hundred Nova cannon rounds is considered sufficient to reduce the planet of St Josmanes hope to a roiled ball of magma, possibly breaking it up temporarily. (in the end they overload some power generation systems instead, as they can't break the blockade in sufficient force) Orbital support for ground troops ranges from slightly more powerful than superheavy ground units "ortillery" to megatons of explosive death.

The Imperium can also "cheat", instead of doing something like that through main force, they can launch various types of cyclonic torpedo, matter energy conversion warheads which can be designed for various levels of destruction.

[Swordguy]

I'm inclined to consider the Zent naval forces as qualitively inferior to Imperial space assets, 4 million ships firing on one planet for X amount of time appear to kill 75% of the human race,

4 million ships minus several hundred thousand killed when Earth's Grand Cannon fired first. The remaining Zent ships fired one shot each, simultaneously. 95% of the Earth's population died. The ones who didn't were in remote areas of extremely low population (like small villages in the Yukon or similar).

The facts you posted are wrong, sir.

[Thangorodrim]

4 million ships minus several hundred thousand killed when Earth's Grand Cannon fired first. The remaining Zent ships fired one shot each, simultaneously. 95% of the Earth's population died. The ones who didn't were in remote areas of extremely low population (like small villages in the Yukon or similar).

The facts you posted are wrong, sir.

Indeed, I actually skim read the first article that came up from googling "rain of death" http://www.karridian.net/robotech_sc_history.html

Which referred to 75% of the surface being "wiped out" whatever thats supposed to mean, and 90% of the population dead.
http://www.karridian.net/robotech_mc_world.html

I don't know how well sourced that piccy is, but its interesting that the Zent weaponry seems to have irradiated stuff, they are slower than light ray beams of doom.

The Rain of Death doesn't appear to be "scour all trace of human existence off the planet" various images indicate more stereotypical "post apocalypse" style ruined wasteland level. Pretty nasty, but it doesn't really translate to vast firepower when you've got 4 million vessels doing it, even in a single volley.

[Alex Knight]

http://www.robotechreferenceguide.com/

That's a good reference site for Zentradi and Robotech Master/Tirolian forces.

The WMG used by the Zentradi is the equivalent of a 12 megaton fusion explosion, with a rate of fire measured in minutes.

[Thangorodrim]

http://www.robotechreferenceguide.com/

That's a good reference site for Zentradi and Robotech Master/Tirolian forces.

The WMG used by the Zentradi is the equivalent of a 12 megaton fusion explosion, with a rate of fire measured in minutes.


Lots and lots of good stuff in there, just the sort of information I was looking for.

Again, I'm not sure of the providence of most of the information, but I'm interested to see that the reflex cannon is roughly in line with what I suggested and their numbers have been derived from analysis of the source material.

Just for reference, I calced a a Nova cannon round, the equivalent weapon for a reflex cannon suggested earlier, to have approximately 200 teratons of kinetic energy.

Looks like you could probably draw a straight line through a Zent formation from the tips of each so equipped IoM vessel and consider them out of action.

[LBO]

Lots and lots of good stuff in there, just the sort of information I was looking for.

Again, I'm not sure of the providence of most of the information, but I'm interested to see that the reflex cannon is roughly in line with what I suggested and their numbers have been derived from analysis of the source material.

Just for reference, I calced a a Nova cannon round, the equivalent weapon for a reflex cannon suggested earlier, to have approximately 200 teratons of kinetic energy.

Looks like you could probably draw a straight line through a Zent formation from the tips of each so equipped IoM vessel and consider them out of action.
And that's before the Nova cannon shell detonates. Based on the sizes of BFG terrain in the manual, the blast radius is bigger than a planet.