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Ramos
2008-01-31, 04:57 AM
In the new Pit Fiend stats there is no spell resistance or immunities to speak of (just a lousy 15 fire and poison resistance). In addition, the Pit Fiend has lost all its ranged attacks in the forms of SLAs, including its mind-affecting immunity from unholy aura and its dispel magic.

Assuming that is a typical change in outsiders or, even worse, monsters in general, even if the casters are supposedly toned down they are going to rule the battlefield still:

A fighter has to contend with the fiend's 44 AC, considerably increased HP, double auras (which apply automatically to anyone getting close) and, unless the fighter can fly, with the fiend's fly speed or a range penalty if ranged weapons are used.

The wizard only has to blast away from a distance-without either spell resistance or immunities to block spells and no ranged attacks of its own, the Pit Fiend is (probably) toast.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-31, 05:12 AM
In the new Pit Fiend stats there is no spell resistance or immunities to speak of (just a lousy 15 fire and poison resistance). In addition, the Pit Fiend has lost all its ranged attacks in the forms of SLAs, including its mind-affecting immunity from unholy aura and its dispel magic.

Assuming that is a typical change in outsiders or, even worse, monsters in general, even if the casters are supposedly toned down they are going to rule the battlefield still:

A fighter has to contend with the fiend's 44 AC, considerably increased HP, double auras (which apply automatically to anyone getting close) and, unless the fighter can fly, with the fiend's fly speed or a range penalty if ranged weapons are used.

The wizard only has to blast away from a distance-without either spell resistance or immunities to block spells and no ranged attacks of its own, the Pit Fiend is (probably) toast.

This is fairly disingenuous.

-Given the lack of monster immunities, don't you suspect that effects that *require* such immunities won't be a part of the game?

-Won't an archer attack from a distance, too?

-Doesn't the pit fiend have a teleporting ability, plus minions it can direct, to deal with ranged attackers?

-Why do you say casters are (even "probably") going to rule the battlefield, when that depends completely on what they can do--and we have no idea of what they'll be able to do?

Ramos
2008-01-31, 05:17 AM
-Given the lack of monster immunities, don't you suspect that effects that *require* such immunities won't be a part of the game?

No, because we already know there are going to be charm effects in the game-the Pit Fiend has one. So, if charms are there, the lack of mind-affecting immunity is a HUGE minus.


-Won't an archer attack from a distance, too?
Yes, but the archer takes a penalty for range AND there are no longer full attacks in the game AND monster HP has increased AND weapon damage has decreased (just see the Pit Fiend meele attacks-pitiful compared with its auras and/or poison)


-Doesn't the pit fiend have a teleporting ability, plus minions it can direct, to deal with ranged attackers?
Teleporting is now limited to 10 squares-equal to its fly speed, I think. By the time it reaches the wizard, it'll take several rounds worth of spells.


-Why do you say casters are (even "probably") going to rule the battlefield, when that depends completely on what they can do--and we have no idea of what they'll be able to do?
Because Spell Resistance is missing and Armor Class is still there. Because most fighters are meele (the "defender" role as opposed to "striker" role). Because monsters can fly and the fighters still can't.

Unless casters are much weaker in their attacks than fighters-to just make up for not having to contend with spell resistance anymore-casters are still going to rule.

Caewil
2008-01-31, 05:26 AM
Maybe all spells will require saves. That would remove the need for SR.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-31, 05:28 AM
No, because we already know there are going to be charm effects in the game-the Pit Fiend has one. So, if charms are there, the lack of mind-affecting immunity is a HUGE minus.
There are Charm-typed effects, yes. They do not necessarily do the same thing Dominate Monster or Charm Monster did. For example, a power that locks the target in place for one round could be Charm typed... as could a power that puts it under your mental control forever with no defense offered. How important immunities are depends entirely on how strong the effects are. If Charm-typed powers are on par with damage-dealing powers overall-effectiveness-wise, I don't see the need for Charm immunity (just as there is no Weapon Immunity).


Yes, but the archer takes a penalty for range AND there are no longer full attacks in the game AND monster HP has increased AND weapon damage has decreased (just see the Pit Fiend meele attacks-pitiful compared with its auras and/or poison)
Damage has decreased overall. What makes you think that the wizard's per-encounter or at-will ranged power will do more damage than the archer's?
At the range an archer would take a penalty, the wizard may not be able to reach his enemy at all.


Teleporting is now limited to 10 squares-equal to its fly speed, I think. By the time it reaches the wizard, it'll take several rounds worth of spells.
That depends entirely on the range of the wizard's spells--let's not assume they've kept the ability to explode things from 1000 feet away. It also, as I said, has allies it can direct, and I believe it can move and still do things. "They have to reach me" is an advantage ranged characters will obviously have, likely compensated for with weaker defenses.


Because Spell Resistance is missing and Armor Class is still there. Because most fighters are meele (the "defender" role as opposed to "striker" role). Because monsters can fly and the fighters still can't.
At the level of that pit fiend, I fully expect fighters to be able to fly, whether via items or allies--or at least otherwise be able to deal with flying enemies.
Spell Resistance is missing. So what? The wizard is still going to be making attacks vs. a defense. He may be using Fortitude or Reflex or Will defense, but all of those were high for the Pit Fiend, too (and the Fighter is likely to have powers that attack Fortitude or Reflex instead of AC).


Unless casters are much weaker in their attacks than fighters-to just make up for not having to contend with spell resistance anymore-casters are still going to rule.
Instead of contending with Spell Resistance, casters will be contending with one of the four defenses, just like everyone else. Where's the problem?

You're approaching this with a very 3.5 viewpoint. I think given the sweeping changes they're making, we're going to have to discard a whole lot of the basic assumptions we use.

Serrae
2008-01-31, 06:36 AM
Shall we look at some well known mage spells from 3E and see how they would work against this monster:

Fireball: allows a reflex save at the moment, so presumably will have to roll to hit its reflex defence, this is your best bet being only 38, of course the pit fiend does actually have some fire resistance, so thats moot, but lightning bolt should be effective for the same reason.

Dominate monster: a charm effect, assuming it acts similarly you would need to hit its will defence of 40, and even then every round it would have a 60% chance of shaking it off thanks to its +2 to saves.

Melfs acid arrow: a ranged touch attack at the moment, but as I can't see any touch AC listed then we can only assume that this works on AC, or possably reflex, if it works on AC then it has to hit on the same as melee classes anyway, followed by the pit feind having a 60% chance of shaking off the effect.

Disintergrate: guessing from current rules this would be an attack against the fortitude defence, which is practically the same as its AC anyway.

Now what we don't know is are any of the above spells still going to be in the new edition, and if they are will they be 1/day 1/encounter or at will? We simple don't know. Secondly we're talking about a creature who mostly seems to be minion focused, which means your not just having to blast at him, but the (up to) 8 other creatures scuttering around, which the pit fiend can also teleport around, I can just imagine how much a wizard will *love* being surrounded by 2 devils in melee range, I can't see that being very helpfull for the sake of casting.

And as for Fighters not being able to reach it, well they quite possable could have magic items that will help them move faster/fly, although they did mention they were toning down the magic items, but I could equally imagine a wizards/cleric spell being used to give a movement enhancing effect to thier melee friends, and if nothing else theres 2-8 other things for them to kill even if they can't reach the pit fiend easily.

And as for the having multiple rounds of spells before it reaches you, well that all depends on 1) if spells still have that kind of range, 2) if spells don't suffer range penalties (we simple don't know, they might) and 3) if your Dm is kind enough to have the pit fiend come after you on a long, open featureless plain where you can allways see and hit it, rather than say, leaping out from behind a ruined building.

Starsinger
2008-01-31, 06:44 AM
And as for the having multiple rounds of spells before it reaches you, well that all depends on 1) if spells still have that kind of range, 2) if spells don't suffer range penalties (we simple don't know, they might) and 3) if your Dm is kind enough to have the pit fiend come after you on a long, open featureless plain where you can allways see and hit it, rather than say, leaping out from behind a ruined building.

Or teleporting from inside the building even.

illathid
2008-01-31, 07:56 AM
I believe that every direct attack (whether it is a spell, a sword, or what have you) will require you to target a defense.

So the mage has to beat the Pit Fiend's Will defense if he wants his charm to work, or it's reflex to have his Fireball work.

That way casters and non-casters will be easier to balance as they'll all have the same attack bonus progression.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-31, 07:59 AM
Given that spell resistance has essentially the same purpose as saving throws do, it would not surprise me if they had folded the two together in 4E.

Rutee
2008-01-31, 08:04 AM
I'm.. not sure if it'll be easier to 'balance' based on everyone now attacking a defense. Strictly speaking, while it unifies the system a lot (And this is good), it doesn't actually balance anything on its own. But you might be right, it might make it easier to look at things and decide whether it's about even for everyone. Maybe.

illathid
2008-01-31, 08:50 AM
I'm.. not sure if it'll be easier to 'balance' based on everyone now attacking a defense. Strictly speaking, while it unifies the system a lot (And this is good), it doesn't actually balance anything on its own. But you might be right, it might make it easier to look at things and decide whether it's about even for everyone. Maybe.

Ok, I agree that this alone won't immediately balance the system, but I think it will help (especially when combined with the unified progression for the defenses). I'm mean, compare it to 3e where spellcasters can not only kill things better than non-casters, they have an easier time doing it too (largely by targeting weak saves, and using no-save/no-SR spells).

You are right about it not balancing everything by itself. In 4e, spells could still be ridiculously overpowered if they hit, but at least with this the imbalance between casters and non-casters has been reduced by one order of magnitude.

Orak
2008-01-31, 10:36 AM
Armor class and saves have been reworked to be function on the same basic principle.

The Pit Fiends AC of 44. This would mean that if a fighter has a total of +28 to hit he has to roll a 16 or higher to hit the pit fiend.

The Pit Fiend has a will save of 40. This will mean that a caster with a +25 to magical attack will need a 15 to hit the pit fiend.

I am sure there will be a whole host of modifiers for attacking with spells. Magical rods that increase your spell attack power, situational modifers, feats, etc. But AC and saves are going to work basically the same. They always did before, just that the roll was in the hands of the defender, and now it is with the attacker just like AC. Streamlines the whole melee/spellcasting thing.

So in the end I would have to say that yes, the Pit Fiend is going to be a tougher opponent in combat because its AC is higher than its saves. Since they seem to be working to make everything streamlined, I would assume that casters and melee would have approximately the same physical/magical attack bonuses (comparing stiker to blaster).

AKA_Bait
2008-01-31, 10:50 AM
Maybe all spells will require saves. That would remove the need for SR.

I'm not sure it would. SR provided a second level of potential bad dice rolling for any spell that already had a save, like Dominate Monster.


There are Charm-typed effects, yes. They do not necessarily do the same thing Dominate Monster or Charm Monster did.

True. We really won't know about those type of spells until 4e comes out and we can get a look at the wizards abilities.


Instead of contending with Spell Resistance, casters will be contending with one of the four defenses, just like everyone else. Where's the problem?

There is no inherent problem. The trick will be keeping everything balanced against eachother. Why a Pit Fiend would be harder to hit with a sword than effect with a Charm spell eludes me though.



That way casters and non-casters will be easier to balance as they'll all have the same attack bonus progression.

And with luck the various creature defenses will be balanced reasonably and in ways that make sense. I'm hopeful but not optimistic.



So in the end I would have to say that yes, the Pit Fiend is going to be a tougher opponent in combat because its AC is higher than its saves. Since they seem to be working to make everything streamlined, I would assume that casters and melee would have approximately the same physical/magical attack bonuses (comparing stiker to blaster).

It seems to me that it's going to be a very different opponent than it had been. I don't think we can speak to tougher until we see it, and the classes, in action.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-31, 11:06 AM
There is no inherent problem. The trick will be keeping everything balanced against eachother. Why a Pit Fiend would be harder to hit with a sword than effect with a Charm spell eludes me though.


Because Charm spell doesn't kill, swords can.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-31, 11:10 AM
Because Charm spell doesn't kill, swords can.

Yes, it's not a save or die, it's a save or lose. Just as bad in terms of finishing off an encounter.

However, my point there was really more of a fluff to mechanics one. I'd expect a lord of devils to be even harder to bend to your will than hit with a stick, just because of the kind of creature but then, that's just my picture of them.

Theli
2008-01-31, 11:14 AM
Additionally, charm spells may not be the "lose" that they used to be.

There are many unknowns.


However, my point there was really more of a fluff to mechanics one. I'd expect a lord of devils to be even harder to bend to your will than hit with a stick, just because of the kind of creature but then, that's just my picture of them.

That is perhaps what the Saves +2 is for. (Supposedly get a chance to break effects with a base d20 roll every round... 11-20 means breaking the effect. That save bonus may mean that the fiend breaks the effect on a 9-20. Meaning it's difficult to keep it under control. (And a coupdegrace may not be possible with a limited charm effect.) But who knows...)

AKA_Bait
2008-01-31, 11:43 AM
That is perhaps what the Saves +2 is for. (Supposedly get a chance to break effects with a base d20 roll every round... 11-20 means breaking the effect. That save bonus may mean that the fiend breaks the effect on a 9-20. Meaning it's difficult to keep it under control. (And a coupdegrace may not be possible with a limited charm effect.) But who knows...)

Could be, which would be better. But yeah, we are really just speculating at this point.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-31, 11:45 AM
if the spells are like the force powers of SW Saga, then the wizard will need to roll a caster check of some sort against the save or damage threshold? of the monster...they will either pass or fail with whatever effects. WIzards will be able to pump out damage, but it might not be as powerful as one might believe...useful...but not uber. Supposidly things have been balanced well.

horseboy
2008-01-31, 12:07 PM
This thread reminds me of that scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f27SorMvn5U) from The Boondocks.

Artanis
2008-01-31, 12:49 PM
One thing I haven't seen anybody mention (though admittedly I may have just missed it): this is only one monster. Even if casters really do have an advantage over melee characters when fighting the Pit Fiend, there may be just as many monsters where a caster is going to get bent over while Thog the Axe Dude goes to town with near-impunity.

Yakk
2008-01-31, 01:20 PM
It is an elite -- it counts as two monsters.

But remember, there are no save or lose spells. If you turn someone to stone, it takes multiple rounds, during which they can shake it off.

If you charm someone, I'm guessing that it will look something like:
Round 1: They cannot attack you.
Round 2: They take a -4 penalty to attacking your allies.
Round 3: They cannot attack your allies.
Round 4: They defend you against people who attack you, at -4 penalty.
Round 5: They defend you against people who attack you.
Round 6: They defend you and your allies,

but maybe less nuanced. Each round the creature has a chance to shake it off (this creature has a 60% chance each round), which moves the charm track back 2 steps. If you or any ally attack the creature, it gets a bonus to it's chance to shake it off, and it becomes "1 step less charmed" even if it fails the save.

Now casting charm and letting it develop fully is no longer a free "I win". And using it on an elite or solo monster (with their high chance to shake it off) is not that effective, because of their high chance to shake off effects.

Counterspin
2008-01-31, 02:20 PM
So you've decided what the class balance is in 4e, without having read the PHB. Seriously? Laughable.

Person_Man
2008-01-31, 02:26 PM
I think that some people might have a fundamental misunderstanding about how classes are going to work in 4th ed.

First, forget everything you know about 3.5 core classes.

Second, pick up a copy of Star Wars Saga Edition, and the Tome of Battle. WotC has openly said that these books are the basis for 4th ed and class balance.

Every single class has a suite of various once per round, once per encounter, and once per day abilities that it can choose from. Abilities have a wide variety of different uses: melee attacks, ranged attacks, movement, healing, buffs, etc. No class has a monopoly on any type of ability, though certain classes are better at it then others. For example, every class can heal hit points and improve its condition track in some manner, but Leader classes (Cleric and Warlord) are better at it. Each class has a power source - Martial, Arcane, Divine, and eventually Psionic, Incarnum, etc. This power source probably won't effect how abilities work. They're just fluff. Martial abilities will be raised up to Tome of Battle level, and all Vancian casting is gone, replaced by magical Warlock/Tome of Magic/Use the Force like abilities.

Furthermore, almost every single offensive ability requires an attack roll, skill check, or ability check. This includes area of effect attacks, battlefield control spells, etc. This roll is almost always opposed by one of four Defense values: AC, Fort, Will, or Reflex. If you roll high enough and hit, you hit. If you roll low and they miss, you miss. There are few or no spells or abilities that automatically take effect, like Power Word or Solid Fog. And there are no "Save or Die" (or suck so bad you might as well be dead) spells or abilities.

So there's is no Touch AC, Flat Footed AC, SR, Antimagic Field, etc. And there's really no need for it. Everything is incorporated into the four streamlined Defenses. And since virtually every class has ranged offensive abilities, having an ability like Fly is really just a mobility advantage that allows you or a monster to ignore terrain, not something that makes you untouchable.

Indon
2008-01-31, 02:53 PM
Or, in other words, the mechanics can't favor casters, because they're just about identical for everyone.

Tengu
2008-01-31, 03:05 PM
And not that 3.5 mechanics aren't favoring casters already... any change short of giving every caster a Pun-Pun-like power by default that they introduce in the fourth edition will be a step towards balance.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-31, 03:28 PM
don't worry...someone will effectively 'break' the system within a wek of it being published and there will be threads on how overpowered combo 'x' is...

Tengu
2008-01-31, 03:35 PM
Seeing as that's probably the first edition of DND where they give more thought to actual balance... I wish I'd find what you said hard to believe, but it will probably turn out to be true anyway.

Rutee
2008-01-31, 03:37 PM
Seeing as that's probably the first edition of DND where they give more thought to actual balance... I wish I'd find what you said hard to believe, but it will probably turn out to be true anyway.


At least it'll be the first edition where it wasn't a Caster, hopefully :smallbiggrin: