Which Oots character is most optimized for playing? [Archive]

RMS Oceanic

2008-01-31, 06:31 AM

Well, let's look at the problems each character has, in order of unoptimized in my opinion:

Belkar: Two-Weapon Fighting Ranger, with a Negative Wisdom, and no ranks in survival. TWF, sadly, is inherantly inferior to other combat styles without reliable extra damage. He can't cast spells, is a terrible tracker and isn't really aware of many of his class features.

Haley: All her feats are about archery combat, which doesn't suit the rogue since you can only sneak attack within 30ft of the target. Ironically, she'd be better off as a TWF-er and flanking targets with Roy. Her and Belkar should swap combat styles.

Vaarsuivus: A blaster mage isn't inherantly weak, but barring conjuration has denied hir some useful spells, both in and out of combat.

Roy: Straight laced fighter. Again, not inherantly weak, but the usefulness of the class diminishes at higher levels. Needs to pick up some feats from PHBII.

Elan: Actually well built, with what seems to be a decent selection of ability scores, feats and skills. Main problem is not knowing how to use his spells properly without somebody telling him.

Durkon: A Cleric with high Wisdom is pretty much automatically optimized. This is another example of the optimized character not being used to his full potential. He usually relegates himself to healbot/backup fighter, where he has the potential to be CoDZilla.

warmachine

2008-01-31, 07:58 AM

It is difficult to judge the capabilities of the characters as many abilities could be hidden but not used. For example, D&D rules don't allow Elan to only know a few spells but such others aren't seen.

Each character has flaws:-

Roy - no devices, besides his armour, sword and bag, such as flying boots or cold iron sword, but appears to be deadly in melee. As the job of a fighter is to get in the way of monsters and hit them, he appears well built to do that. Good.

Elan - good charisma, good diplomacy, good stealth and tumbling, effective songs and illusions but few devices and poor range of spells. No Cure or Glitterdust spells or wands? Mechanically, played badly and seems to win through creating a good story but this is not a build attribute. Fair.

Haley - good stealth, escape artist and other thievery skills, effective ranged shots but lacks a melee weapon for sneak attack. Huh? Daggers and rapiers are dirt cheap, so she has no excuse. Also, needs some magical devices besides obscure alchemical metal arrows. Good.

Vaarsuvius - good range of spells with some combat-stopping evocation spells. Must have some good metamagic feats. Umm... a blaster without backup wands? Oops! Good.

Durkon - good in melee, Thor's Lightning is well good and Thor's Might kicks multiple backsides. Just what you need when the fight is going badly. Nice but get some scrolls and Cure wands. Good.

Belkar - good stealth but a ranger who can't track? Lacks the Wisdom to cast spells? Deals damage at a fantastic rate with small size daggers? What is this, a STR 30, WIS 10 halfing ranger? No way. Cheating.

Kurald Galain

2008-01-31, 08:04 AM

Aside from the issue of which class is strongest (in which case the full casters would win by default), we can check how well the characters are optimized within their class. So, from best to worst, imho,

:roy: Effective combination of feats, high strength and con, decent armor and strong magical weapon. Well done.

:vaarsuvius: Very effective in most situations, but little or no evidence of e.g. metamagic feats, and invocation is subpar but V also uses other things. Decent but not great.

:haley: Standard class skills, no evidence of stellar feats, but focus on archery is subpar. Neutral.

:durkon: No evidence whatsoever, other than having picked an effective deity. Neutral.

:elan: Ignorance of spells and class features, mostly-inneffective spells on his list, lack of effective weapons until recently. Not so good.

:belkar: Lack of wis to cast spells, lack of knowledge of rules, lack of animal companion and tracking - he's almost the reverse of optimized.

Trazoi

2008-01-31, 08:17 AM

I'm not really that great at the Third Edition rules; I've only really experienced them in video games like Neverwinter Nights which I'm sure isn't nearly as nuanced as the real game. And even then I tend to play as halfling paladins (because I find them both sweet and highly amusing). Nevertheless, I'm happy to give my opinion on the OotS characters.

Roy: Fighters can be taken in a number of different ways depending on which character stats you want to emphasis, but they're usually either strength, dexterity or constitution focused. Roy's main problem is that the strip has hinted he's got decent scores in intelligence, wisdom and charisma, meaning he doesn't have much more to go around.

Haley: For an archer rogue she seems pretty well suited; good dexterity, intelligence and fair charisma. I usually prefer rogues as dual wielders too, but she's a solid character.

Durkon: Pretty good for a cleric; high wisdom, probably low agility but wears armour to compensate. Main weakness would be low charisma; I like clerics to be reasonable in charisma for both turning and to act as the glue to hold the part together. Otherwise very good.

Elan: Not bad really for a bard (can't comment on the Dashing Swordsman; don't fully understand how that works). High charisma and agility, low intelligence and wisdom seems to be based purely on genre savvyness. He's pretty good for what he's meant to be doing, if his songs didn't annoy Roy so much.

V: She's not too bad for a damage dealing mage, although I'd usually pick a sorcerer for that role. He's got high intelligence which is pretty much what you need. I'm honestly not sure what her other stats are, but he seems to be fairly well suited to her role. Having to pick a school to bar is tricky as they all seem pretty useful (probably much more so in the pen and paper version).

Belkar: I'm not really sure why he picked ranger as his class, as he isn't any good at anything ranger specific. He's got good dexterity and constitution it seems, and probably fair strength and intelligence, but that's about it. He'd be far better as a pure barbarian.

Thog: Perfectly suited to the role of barbarian; he's massively strong and seems to have awesome constitution as well. Great at both carving things into little bits and acting as a meat shield.

Nale: A fighter/rogue/sorcerer? :smallconfused:

I'm not that sure what Sabine is. Probably a rogue, but I don't know how outsiders work with stats, so I'll leave her alone.

Xykon: I'm not sure which stats matter most to a lich, but he does seem to have enough charisma to pull off being a decent sorcerer. I'm not too sure about his choice of spells, but it's hard to tell exactly what they are due to the rules of the comic (he'll have whatever he needs for the situation). Okay.

Redcloak: Seems pretty darn good for a cleric. Must have a high enough wisdom to be good enough to defeat another high priest at cleric combat. Good enough charisma to lead a goblin army. Doesn't seem to wear that much armour, so I'm assuming his dexterity is fairly good too. I'd probably think he's better cleric than Durkon from that, although I'm not sure about that.

In order, I'd say: Thog, Redcloak, Durkon, Haley, Elan, V, Roy, Belkar, Nale. I'm leaving Xykon out because I'm not sure where I'd put him, being a lich that's a lot more powerful than most of them.

factotum

2008-01-31, 08:31 AM

Belkar: I'm not really sure why he picked ranger as his class, as he isn't any good at anything ranger specific.
.
.
.
Xykon: I'm not sure which stats matter most to a lich, but he does seem to have enough charisma to pull off being a decent sorcerer.

Belkar apparently picked Ranger purely for the free two-weapon-fighting feat they can get...as observed above, he's abysmally optimised for his class and race selection, even less so now he's got a level in Barbarian because neither Barbarian nor Ranger are halfling favoured classes, so he gets an XP penalty!

A lich does not need any particular stats--all abilities granted specifically by them being a lich are not stat dependent, so as long as he's got good stats for a Sorcerer, he's fine.

Aside: there seems to be significant disagreement over how well optimised Elan is! In my own mind he's pretty well optimised for his class; sure, he took Int as his dump stat, but that's not a terrible thing to do for a class that really has no use for it anyway. As for his spell selection, he seems to specialise in illusions, which again is not a terrible thing for a bard to be doing, especially when there's a wizard and a cleric already in the party! If Elan has a problem it's that he roleplays his low Int far too well... :smallwink:

The Extinguisher

2008-01-31, 08:51 AM

"I'll take None of Them for a thousand Alex."

Ceaon

2008-01-31, 09:18 AM

:durkon:
1. Durkon
A cleric with a high wisdom. Seems quite a good build. Can heal, destroy things and has picked a deity who is helpful. Probably the only member who can support himself and also support others. Party misses him instantly if he's gone.

:elan:
2. Elan
For a bard, the only thing not good about him is his lack of healing, but since Durkon's playing healbot most of the time, this isn't as bad as it could be. Now that he's a Dashing Swordsman, his build is actually quite munchkinny.

:haley:
3. Haley
A rogue who depends on sneak attack fighting with a bow. Apart from that, she has her stats in the good places and seems to be filling the role of rogue perfectly with hide, move silently and trap localization and disarming. Since you CAN sneak attack with a bow, she deserves to be higher than Roy.

:roy:
4. Roy
Seems reasonably strong for a fighter, using a twohanded weapon gives him good damage potential, although he also has high Int, Wis and Cha scores, which doesn't seem very minmaxy of him. He also lacks good magic items which can make a fighter less subpar.

:vaarsuvius:
5. Vaarsuvius
A wizard who focuses on blasting, barring conjuration and necromancy, two good schools. Good choice of class, good stat distribution, bad spell selection.

:belkar:
6. Belkar
A small fighter facing multiclass experience penalties, using two daggers instead of shortswords, not using most of his class abilities and with crappy skill selection. Belkar only works because the comic requires him to be a badass, not because his build makes him so.

This is all IMHO, of course.

Tempest Fennac

2008-01-31, 09:49 AM

I'd say that Durkon is the most optimised for reasons which have already been stated. Roy's only problem seems to be a lack of any sort of back-up weapon(s). (We haven't seen his club since he got his sword repaired). Haley has the same problem, but her focus on arcery feats means she isn't getting other abilites which could be useful (eg: we've never seen her use UMD, even though she's had 2 chances to pick up a special ability which would allow her to take 10 on all UMD checks along with 2 other skills). V is a blaster without Conjuration, so s/he really isn't optimised (admittedly, they have been useful on occasions where straight blasting is a good idea).
Belkar wouldn't be that bad if he'd have taken the Magicless Ranger variant while just putting 5 or 6 ranks into Survival by level 10 (he could have done with picking more powerful weapons, though). I'd say Elan is the worst due to his poor Int (considering how Bards are supposed to be skill monkeys, he would have probably been better off as a Sorcerer). His lack of Str was an issue until he got a level of Dashing Swordsman, so he would have been better off being an archer due to his Dex stat appearing to be good. The lack of Int also hinders his Badic Lore checks, and his spell selevtion is presumably poor due to how we hardly see him use spells, which suggests he doesn't have many useful ones.

1. Durkon (a back-up weapon would be useful, though).
2. Roy (back-up weapon needed).
3. Haley (UMD, a back-up weapon and better feat selections needed).
4. Vaarseuveus (specialisation was a poor choice).
5. Belkar (better as Magicless Ranger).

Bayar

2008-01-31, 10:33 AM

Just like to contribute to this thread, by giving the Dashing Swordsman homebrew details:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29882&highlight=order+freak

and another one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1914366&postcount=994

Ok, now for my opinions:
Roy: Good as a hacker and a meat shield, but lacks a range attack.
Haley: Good range, lacks a melee weapon.
Durkon: Cleric...that is always good. Hiding is his weakness
Belkar: Halfling ranger...TWF, low WIS...his char sheet was written blindfolded...
Elan: Good for a bard. But not all consider a bard useful...
V: The party bazooka...conjuration would have been a bonus...

Quorothorn

2008-01-31, 12:56 PM

One thing I find interesting is that Belkar is unoptimized, and yet he's a wrecking machine. Belkar, I might point out, had Miko beat. Remember what he did to Trigak? Or the hydra? His STR must be unreal for a halfling, and his INT clearly is at least solid (look again at his fight with Miko); same goes for his DEX.

Leaving aside that odd little situation (and the fact that I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about w/D&D nuts 'n bolts)...

Roy is not an "ideal" Fighter in the sense that he did not specialize solely in physical stats: notably, however, that makes him overall more effective as something beyond a class-race-alignment combo. He is, remember, a leader, not just a meat shield.

Haley not carrying some kind of side-arm is pretty strange, but beyond that she is probably the most effective at what her class is "supposed" to be, with the rival within the Order being Durkon, who can heal, blast (to a limited degree: V's the real blaster in the party) and fight.

EloquentRune

2008-01-31, 01:05 PM

for this one I would have to say V is the most optimized

V is strait forward and a great evocation caster.

Morty

2008-01-31, 01:57 PM

Superglucose

2008-01-31, 02:02 PM

The clerics are the most optimized. It is... difficult to fail building a cleric. Just give 'em full plate and prepare some spells you can't cast spontaneously, and... well... have fun!

I had a newbie who'd never played D&D or anything remotely similar before play a cleric, and literally when she asked, "What's good?" I replied, "Whatever's on the list." She prepared things she wanted her cleric to do (heals, summoning) and the character turned out good. Iono if she got lucky, but I've always meant to go back and play a cleric.

Rollin

2008-01-31, 02:17 PM

:durkon:
1. Durkon
A cleric with a high wisdom. Seems quite a good build. Can heal, destroy things and has picked a deity who is helpful. Probably the only member who can support himself and also support others. Party misses him instantly if he's gone.

If only (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html) that were the case.

Tengu

2008-01-31, 03:23 PM

RMS Oceanic hit the spot with OotS members for me, so I'll talk a bit about other characters.

Redcloak might have a decent build, but he's badly played - he's a cleric who doesn't wear armor and casts offensive spells instead of buffing himself CoDzilla style. And it seems most clerics in OotSverse play that way. I think the sole reasons he's so good is because he is very high level, and a cunning tactician.

Miko is a MAD monster - she either has improbably high stats or is rather weak. Paladins aren't very good in core, especially if you strip away their casting abilities (have you ever seen her cast anything? She probably lacks the wisdom for that) and if you give several levels in monk, the worst core class. Her strength comes either from huge stats or plot.

Nale is too multi-classed to be effective mechanically. and that has been shown many times - he had trouble beating pre-dashing swordsman Elan.

RebelRogue

2008-01-31, 03:23 PM

eg: we've never seen her use UMD, even though she's had 2 chances to pick up a special ability which would allow her to take 10 on all UMD checks along with 2 other skills
Since UMD states you may never take 10 in it, Skill Mastery will not allow you to do so! Although there's prestige classes out there that specifically allow you to ignore this rule, Skill Mastery is not one of them (if not, every damn rogue would pick it at level 10!)

Chronos

2008-01-31, 04:02 PM

On the other hand, Skill Mastery is a godsend for several other skills (several of which Haley does use). But she's apparently blown all of her rogue special abilities on feats to further improve her archery.

As for Belkar, the only unoptimized move he's made has been to multiclass in a way that gives him an XP penalty. The reason people think he's unoptimized is because they're thinking that a ranger is supposed to be a guy who's savvy about the wilderness, and befriends the animals, and all that. Yes, Belkar fails miserably at that, but that's because that's not what he was trying to do. What Belkar wants is to be able to sneak around unnoticed, strike deciseively from ambush, and then go back into hiding (like what he did versus Miko), and for that goal, he's made about the best choices available. His ranger abilities don't just give him two-weapon fighting: They also give him Hide and Move Silently as class skills, lots of skill points, full BAB, and Favored Enemy.

Ceaon

2008-01-31, 04:10 PM

If only (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html) that were the case.

Okay, maybe not instantly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html)... But that's done for comedic purposes.

factotum

2008-01-31, 04:47 PM

What Belkar wants is to be able to sneak around unnoticed, strike deciseively from ambush, and then go back into hiding (like what he did versus Miko), and for that goal, he's made about the best choices available. His ranger abilities don't just give him two-weapon fighting: They also give him Hide and Move Silently as class skills, lots of skill points, full BAB, and Favored Enemy.

If you want to create a sneaky "attack from ambush" character, surely a Rogue is a far better choice than a Ranger. Yes, you're a bit short on BAB, but if you actually land a hit your Sneak Attack makes it considerably more decisive than any hit a two-weapon Ranger could land.

SPoD

2008-01-31, 07:07 PM

All bolding added by me:

Roy - no devices, besides his armour, sword and bag, such as flying boots or cold iron sword, but appears to be deadly in melee. As the job of a fighter is to get in the way of monsters and hit them, he appears well built to do that. Good.

Elan - good charisma, good diplomacy, good stealth and tumbling, effective songs and illusions but few devices and poor range of spells. No Cure or Glitterdust spells or wands? Mechanically, played badly and seems to win through creating a good story but this is not a build attribute. Fair.

Haley - good stealth, escape artist and other thievery skills, effective ranged shots but lacks a melee weapon for sneak attack. Huh? Daggers and rapiers are dirt cheap, so she has no excuse. Also, needs some magical devices besides obscure alchemical metal arrows. Good.

Vaarsuvius - good range of spells with some combat-stopping evocation spells. Must have some good metamagic feats. Umm... a blaster without backup wands? Oops! Good.

Durkon - good in melee, Thor's Lightning is well good and Thor's Might kicks multiple backsides. Just what you need when the fight is going badly. Nice but get some scrolls and Cure wands. Good.

Belkar - good stealth but a ranger who can't track? Lacks the Wisdom to cast spells? Deals damage at a fantastic rate with small size daggers? What is this, a STR 30, WIS 10 halfing ranger? No way. Cheating.

The fact that you noticed this for five out of six characters (and would have mentioned it for the sixth if you weren't saying he was completely nonsensical) says to me that there is simply a disconnect between the world of OOTS and how you have traditionally played D&D. It seems that magic items are uncommon and not easily obtained; the OOTSers have gotten almost no magic items from their travels. Thus, I don't think we can really say this is a feature of them being unoptimized so much as it is a feature of their campaign setting/DM.

mockingbyrd7

2008-01-31, 09:24 PM

What is this, a STR 30, WIS 10 halfing ranger? No way. Cheating.

What? That high?? Belkar does NOT have ten wisdom. :smalltongue:

My opinions:

Haley: Great dex, intelligent, knows where to put her skill points and her arrows. She isn't at all unoptimized.

V: V's biggest fault is barring Conjuration. Making things explode, although it's a lot of fun, is sadly not optimal for DnD. (But if it's fun, who cares?)

Roy: High strength and con, optimized very well considering his class.

Belkar: No wisdom, no tracking, no animal companion (maybe Mr. Scruffy?), if so unoptimal animal companion, doesn't make use of his other skills, halfling with daggers. The epitome of unoptimized.

Elan: Surprisingly well optimized, with a high charisma and dexterity and probably good strength. (Spell usage has nothing to do with optimization.)

Durkon: High wisdom, good strength and constitution, so he's auto-mized.

PirateMonk

2008-01-31, 10:34 PM

Probably Leeky, as he seems to have picked up Everything You Need To Know To Play A Druid EffectivelyTM, expect possibly summoning. All the other divine casters are solid, but not really optimized.

Xykon transcends the need for optimization by being stupidly epic.

good_lookin_gus

2008-01-31, 10:46 PM

I know that you can argue the fluffy investments of Craft: Disturbing Image and Profession: Gourmet Chef; but overall Belkar strikes me as a munchkin. He is naturally unoptimized because he has no interest in anything outside of combat(save for sneaking up on unwary victims and away from the hands of justice). Extra attacks just mean more natural 20s. It's also within reason for Belkar to "forget" that your offhand attacks only get half your str bonus or that he's actually rolling d3s, not d6s. Beyond that Belkar doesn't assign himself XP. If The Great Un-Named DM in the Sky(or whatever) happens to have a brainfart regarding his multiclassing penalty, well...

Iranon

2008-01-31, 11:32 PM

If Miko had the stats to pull it off effectively, she was very well optimised for solo missions. High damage potential to end battles quickly, mobility and saving throws out of this world... while her build might not be optimal for toe-to-toe hacking matches, it's good in terms of survivability.

hajo

2008-01-31, 11:36 PM

It seems that magic items are uncommon and not easily obtained; the OOTSers have gotten almost no magic items from their travels.
They got a few (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) magic items.
Not enough to outfit them as superheros :smallsmile:

Worira

2008-01-31, 11:39 PM

For people saying Roy's unoptimized since he has high mental stats, keep in mind that he probably rolled them.

the_tick_rules

2008-02-01, 12:05 AM

durkon is probably most optimized.

Voyager

2008-02-01, 01:24 AM

Well, my only DnD experience came from NWN as well, but, there at least, a +5 Magic Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) was not an item to be sniffed at.

Orzel

2008-02-01, 02:10 AM

Belkar is fairly optimized. Ranger is the only core base class with decent skills and Full BAB. He's optimized for killing NPCs and sneaking away when their friends come. He did that the best during the siege. Vs an army of lvl 1 warriors, 6 1d3+ str attacks is nice. He would have out killed Roy if he were alive.

He also has the best Fort and Reflex saves being a ranger, barbarian, and halfling.

He's the most optimized for combat, he just stinks at everything else except stealth.

Decoy Lockbox

2008-02-01, 03:21 AM

First I'll rate them by class/build choice. I'll use the standard American letter grading system of A, B, C, D, F

Roy: pure fighter. D
V: wizard. A
Elan: Bard. C
Haley: Rogue. B
Durkon: Cleric. A
Belkar: Ranger. D

Next I'll rate them by the way each character utilizes their class features and character options.

Roy actually does a great job capitalizing on the few things a fighter can do somewhat well. Full plate and a two handed weapon with power attack is a fairly tried and true method, and he uses it well. I'll give him an A in this category.

V made a really really bad choice. First, he/she chose to specialize, which I think is usually a bad call. Then, he picked evocation and barred conjuration. I'll give him a D/C for this -- evokers are usually not good in late game D&D, but in the OOTS universe, this doesn't seem to be the case.

Elan -- I've seen some really good bard builds in my time playing 3.5 D&D. Elan's is not one of them. I'll give him a D for not being very helpful to his party (which is a bard's main role).

Haley is a mixed bag. She clearly puts high ranks into the vital skills of hide, move silently, disable device, search, etc. But she doesn't appear to have any ranks in use magic device. She also uses a bow instead of dual wielding melee weapons, which is reducing the damage she could deal by a tremendous amount. I'll give her a C, since not all rogues are meant to be both skill monkeys AND damage machines.

Durkon is a cleric with a good wisdom score and above average physical stats. Thats all you need. I've seen clerics with all 13's for ability scores open up cans of whoopass on opponents and still heal up the party afterwards. His only failing is in using a one handed weapon instead of a two hander. This is because the extra strength granted by cleric self buffs does even more damage when used with a two hander (not to mention power attack). But he seems to use divine power (thor's power) infrequently, so this is more of a small concern. I'll give him a B.

Belkar....as many have noted, he has one of the worst builds ever. Ranger is a pretty subpar class is my book (and 3.0 ranger was even worse), and he has chosen to play a bad version of an already bad class. He has multiclassed into barbarian (a fairly good class), but he will receive an xp penalty due to the difference in levels. He can't use any of the ranger spells (and there are some nice ones) due to his low Wis, which also will impair his spot and listen checks, something rangers normally excel at. Rangers don't normally do very good damage, and in Belkar's case this is made even worse by his size and his utterly bizarre decision to use daggers as his melee weapon instead of shortswords or the long/short sword combo. Just for the people in this thread who don't play D&D, a small dagger deals 1 to 3 damage, whereas a small longsword deals 1 to 6. They do different damage types, but strike at identical speeds, since D&D no longer uses different weapon speeds. So Belkar has chosen to halve his weapon damage for no gain. As many have noted, the only reason Belkar does as well in combat as he does is for plot reasons. There is nothing, and I repeat NOTHING about his character which would cause him to perform at any kind of decent level in or out of combat. In a real game, his character would have been laughed out of the party or killed by enemy monsters in the first encounter of the game. I give him a grade of F--

Tempest Fennac

2008-02-01, 03:58 AM

I'm sorry about getting confused rearding Skill Mastery (I assumed it was the only way that non-Warlocks could take 10 on UMD checks). In regards to Miko, Rich mentioned her using CLW after the 2nd Order battle, which suggests that her Wis was at least 11. Also, her use of Stunning Fist means she may only have 2 levels on Monk with the rest being Paladin. there is a possibility that she didn't store anymore Cure spells on that particular day, and she didn't need to use any of the spells she had stored (admittedly, the fact that she never used any spells during the first battle, in spite of the fact that buffing herself would have helped due to her not knowing exactly how strong the Order is) suggests that she doesn't have a very good Wis.

Orzel

2008-02-01, 07:03 AM

...

I agree with most of your stuff except for a few things

Rangers are typically said to be as good a rogue if played decently due to good combat skill, skill, and scroll and wand use. Fighters warrant an f if you aren't a powergame the feat or PRC out of it.

Roy took some crappy feats even for a fighter W. Spec and W. Focus stink past level 5.

Durkon uses the cleric like the designers want you too and that way isn't very efficient.

Tempest Fennac

2008-02-01, 07:10 AM

How is Durkon not being used efficiently? Considering Cleric'c class features I thought he was being used well. I forgot to say this about Red Cloak's armour, but does anyone else think he may be a Cloistered Cleric? It would explain why he only seems to use light armour without any sort of melee weapon while coming across as having a lot of Knowledge ranks.

brilliantlight

2008-02-01, 08:13 AM

#Raptor

2008-02-01, 09:47 AM

I nominate :thog:.

1) Knows how to min-max. ":nale: Intelligence was his dump stat."
2) Has a intelligent approach to multiclassing. ":thog: Fighter level 3 is dumb level. Thog not take."

The result? ":thog: Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage!!!"

Kurald Galain

2008-02-01, 09:52 AM

Roy: pure fighter. D
V: wizard. A
Elan: Bard. C
Haley: Rogue. B
Durkon: Cleric. A
Belkar: Ranger. D
Why on earth do you rate the skillmonkey-and-above-average spellcasting bard below the skillmonkey rogue? And since when are rangers on the same level as fighters?

First, he/she chose to specialize, which I think is usually a bad call.
It's usually a good call. It gives you all sorts of extra options, increases your spells-per-day by a large amount at low level, and still significant at higher levels (+1 6th level spell per day is nothing to sneeze at) and the only drawback is dropping one or two schools that you can cherrypick. The logic ninja concurs. Also, your statement "evokers are usually not good in late game D&D" runs directly counter to overall consensus on D&D casting, which is that blasters are always not good, even at early levels.

Haley is a mixed bag. But she doesn't appear to have any ranks in use magic device.
And you're basing that on what, exactly? How many magic devices has Haley seen in the comic so far that she has been unable to use?

Ranger is a pretty subpar class is my book (and 3.0 ranger was even worse)
It's better than fighter, though, and only slightly below barbarian (which is a third-tier class, out of four). Also, Belkar doesn't halve his weapon damage, because 1d3 and 1d6 is only 1.5 points of difference per hit, and the majority of weapon damage comes from bonuses like strength, power attack, favored enemy, and so forth. Also, Belkar is clearly more effective than Elan, by a long shot.

Tempest Fennac

2008-02-01, 09:53 AM

That is a good point regarding Thog (the problem is that his useless at anything other then killing things, which isn't ideal when his not with someone like Nale or Elan). Also, has Haley ever made any UMD checks in the main strip?

Decoy Lockbox

2008-02-01, 03:45 PM

Why on earth do you rate the skillmonkey-and-above-average spellcasting bard below the skillmonkey rogue? And since when are rangers on the same level as fighters?

It's usually a good call. It gives you all sorts of extra options, increases your spells-per-day by a large amount at low level, and still significant at higher levels (+1 6th level spell per day is nothing to sneeze at) and the only drawback is dropping one or two schools that you can cherrypick. The logic ninja concurs. Also, your statement "evokers are usually not good in late game D&D" runs directly counter to overall consensus on D&D casting, which is that blasters are always not good, even at early levels.

And you're basing that on what, exactly? How many magic devices has Haley seen in the comic so far that she has been unable to use?

It's better than fighter, though, and only slightly below barbarian (which is a third-tier class, out of four). Also, Belkar doesn't halve his weapon damage, because 1d3 and 1d6 is only 1.5 points of difference per hit, and the majority of weapon damage comes from bonuses like strength, power attack, favored enemy, and so forth. Also, Belkar is clearly more effective than Elan, by a long shot.

In my experience with core D&D, rogue is a better class than Bard.

Other than the extra spell per day, what extra "options" does a specialist get?

I'll admit that ranger is a lot more versatile than fighter, which I suppose makes it better. But If I had to have one or the other in my party, I would choose a fighter over a ranger. Actually, scratch that, I would choose a fighter4/ranger1/X guy over either of them.

I am aware that Belkar was not technically halving his entire damage, just reducing the weapon part of it. But honestly, how strong can a halfling be? Apparently he is crazily strong to be able to fight as well as he does. But I think its just for plot purposes. And what is his favored enemy anyhow?

osyluth

2008-02-01, 03:47 PM

Leeky Windstaff.
"I am a druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!"

Morty

2008-02-01, 04:04 PM

Other than the extra spell per day, what extra "options" does a specialist get?

What else do you need? Extra spell slot on every spell level is already good enough to swallow smaller choice of spells. You wouldn't be able to use all spells on the list anyway.
Also, I wouldn't be so sure about OoTS not having magical toys items. There are several mentions of them, so I guess they're there, and we just don't see them. After all, magic weapons don't have look any special in OOTS, so maybe other items aren't very characteristic either.

#Raptor

2008-02-01, 04:26 PM

Leeky Windstaff.
"I am a druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!"
Wait, I thought Leeky didn't even have the Natural Spell feat?

I believe its about who is "most optimized", not "the strongest".
(I.e. a fully-optimized monk would be more optimized than a poorly build cleric/druid/wizard even if the later might still be stronger.)

@Tempest Fennac: True, but thats exactly what a barbarian is supposed to be good at. Let Elan/Nale handle the other stuff, they're the skillmonkeys, not thog.
I'd also like to note that Thog appears to be quite adept at breaking out of jail (3 breakouts so far) and being a footstool.

Chronos

2008-02-01, 05:01 PM

And what is his favored enemy anyhow?There's some debate about this, but my guess is Humanoid (reptilian) +4, Giant +4, Humanoid (goblinoid) +2. Which covers most of the things we've seen him fighting, and accounts for how effective he is.

Wait, I thought Leeky didn't even have the Natural Spell feat?No evidence. Durkon thought he might not have, but Julia was confused by the very notion.

brilliantlight

2008-02-01, 08:58 PM

Why on earth do you rate the skillmonkey-and-above-average spellcasting bard below the skillmonkey rogue? And since when are rangers on the same level as fighters?

It's usually a good call. It gives you all sorts of extra options, increases your spells-per-day by a large amount at low level, and still significant at higher levels (+1 6th level spell per day is nothing to sneeze at) and the only drawback is dropping one or two schools that you can cherrypick. The logic ninja concurs. Also, your statement "evokers are usually not good in late game D&D" runs directly counter to overall consensus on D&D casting, which is that blasters are always not good, even at early levels.

And you're basing that on what, exactly? How many magic devices has Haley seen in the comic so far that she has been unable to use?

It's better than fighter, though, and only slightly below barbarian (which is a third-tier class, out of four). Also, Belkar doesn't halve his weapon damage, because 1d3 and 1d6 is only 1.5 points of difference per hit, and the majority of weapon damage comes from bonuses like strength, power attack, favored enemy, and so forth. Also, Belkar is clearly more effective than Elan, by a long shot.

I prefer fighters to barbarians as they have better AC and more feats. I usually play mages and hiding behind someone in full plate and tower shield seems safer then some guy in leather. Barbarians only rage a few times a day and unless they are raging they can't really compete with a fighter when fighting toe to toe.

AlisdairM

2008-02-01, 09:23 PM

Why is everyone down on Belkar for choosing ambi-daggers? It does not appear to have been his original choice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html).

brilliantlight

2008-02-01, 10:29 PM

Why is everyone down on Belkar for choosing ambi-daggers? It does not appear to have been his original choice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html).

Actually it was but 3.0 made his daggers tiny as he is a small character.

factotum

2008-02-02, 03:18 AM

No evidence. Durkon thought he might not have, but Julia was confused by the very notion.

But Durkon managed to defeat Leeky in his bear form, which is something he obviously thought he wouldn't be able to do if Leeky could heal himself as a bear ("he cannae heal 'imself while he's in the shape o' tha dire bear"). Also, we have no evidence of Leeky casting a spell while shapeshifted, so it seems more likely that he DIDN'T take the Natural Spell feat.

Tempest Fennac

2008-02-02, 03:51 AM

There is a chance that he didn't use any spells due to not feeling a need to while he was in Dire Bear form (He may not have prepared any splees which would have been useful at that point: all we know about his spell selection on that day is that he had at least 1 Stoneskin, at least 1 tree animating spell, Heal and Firestorm, and the last 2 weren't really needed during his fight with Durkon).

Kurald Galain

2008-02-02, 05:15 AM

I prefer fighters to barbarians as they have better AC and more feats. I usually play mages and hiding behind someone in full plate and tower shield seems safer then some guy in leather. Barbarians only rage a few times a day and unless they are raging they can't really compete with a fighter when fighting toe to toe.

Actually, what you're saying about barbs and fighters is WOTC's design intent for 3.0, where they actually assumed Weapon Focus was a good feat, and that fighters were the best melee class. They have LONG since shown to be completely wrong on both accounts. Also, barbarians can effectively rage once in every encounter that matters, and shields and especially tower shields are a lot less effective than a big two-handed weapon.

"Hiding behind" somebody doesn't work in D&D except if you're in a 5-foot corridor, since the opponents can simply walk around your big hulking fighter. Well, unless he's an ubertripper of some sort. The way to defend yourself as a mage is (1) protective spells, like flight or invis, (2) wall-type spells, which, unlike most fighter, actually stop people, and (3) killing the enemy before he kills you.

factotum

2008-02-02, 06:52 AM

There is a chance that he didn't use any spells due to not feeling a need to while he was in Dire Bear form

But Durkon defeated him. Surely Leeky might have considered using a spell to prevent his butt getting whupped? And it beggars belief that he wouldn't have prepared any healing spells...

Morty

2008-02-02, 07:00 AM

Humanoid (goblinoid) +2

What makes you say that? Belkar isn't bent on killing goblinoids more than other adventurers or Azure City defenders. We haven't seen any evidence he's particulary good at killing them, either.

Tempest Fennac

2008-02-02, 07:57 AM

We can't be certain about how much damage Drukon was doing to Leeky during the fight, so he may not have needed to heal himself until after he had been knocked out of Wildshape. Also, did Durkon really defeat Leeky on his own? I think it's assumed that Leeky is at level 14 from his use of 2 level 7 spells, so he could have easily used Wildshape again. On the other hand, Durkon's only ever used Thor's Might once/day. Looking at the rules for Wildshape, the fact that he didn't take a standard action to change back in spite of the slight healing effect and the fact that he would have probably bosted his AC and melee combat abilities suggests that he didn't have Natural Spell for some reason due to how he just went straignt ahead with casting spells after Durkon cancelled Wildshape.

brilliantlight

2008-02-02, 10:44 AM

Actually, what you're saying about barbs and fighters is WOTC's design intent for 3.0, where they actually assumed Weapon Focus was a good feat, and that fighters were the best melee class. They have LONG since shown to be completely wrong on both accounts. Also, barbarians can effectively rage once in every encounter that matters, and shields and especially tower shields are a lot less effective than a big two-handed weapon.

"Hiding behind" somebody doesn't work in D&D except if you're in a 5-foot corridor, since the opponents can simply walk around your big hulking fighter. Well, unless he's an ubertripper of some sort. The way to defend yourself as a mage is (1) protective spells, like flight or invis, (2) wall-type spells, which, unlike most fighter, actually stop people, and (3) killing the enemy before he kills you.

It takes 4 lvls for a barbarian to rage a whopping 2 times a day and two feats.Let's say it is power attack and cleave. By which time a fighter has
5 feats power attack, cleave, great cleave,weapon focus and weapon specialization.

How small is your party? With 6 people your front line should be at least 15' wide. More if you have animal companions or summoned creatures. This is not counting any possible attacks of oppertunity you may may give by going around them. True, this applies mainly to corridors and small rooms but they are not rare.

Kurald Galain

2008-02-02, 11:35 AM

It takes 4 lvls for a barbarian to rage a whopping 2 times a day and two feats.Let's say it is power attack and cleave. By which time a fighter has
5 feats power attack, cleave, great cleave,weapon focus and weapon specialization.
However, great cleave, weapon focus, and weapon spec are all poor feats. Raging twice a day is hardly ineffective, as characters are "supposed" to have four encounters per day, and not all of those are going to be as strong. This means in practice that, when the barb needs to rage, he can. And if it bothers him, there's the Extra Rage feat.

A big problem with the core fighter is that there are very few worthwhile feats in core. That is why many people consider the fighter class only useful for a two- or four-level dip.

How small is your party? With 6 people your front line should be at least 15' wide.
According to WOTC, most parties are four or five people, so I'd say having a caster plus a six-man front line is relatively rare.

At any rate, the overall inability for tanks in D&D to block enemies from hitting their more vulnerable friends is a known problem in 3rd edition, and WOTC has suggested numerous fixes for this (e.g. knight's challenge, or 4E's binding smite).

Kurald Galain

2008-02-02, 11:37 AM

What makes you say that? Belkar isn't bent on killing goblinoids more than other adventurers or Azure City defenders. We haven't seen any evidence he's particulary good at killing them, either.

Although it's hardly full evidence, this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html) seems to indicate Belkar hates goblinoids.

Chronos

2008-02-02, 01:22 PM

As does this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html). With as paranoid as Belkar is about that Mark of Justice, it's pretty significant when he says that he doesn't even care about it.

We haven't seen any evidence he's particulary good at killing them, either.Are we reading the same comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

Morty

2008-02-02, 02:08 PM

Although it's hardly full evidence, this comic seems to indicate Belkar hates goblinoids.

Not more so than your typical adventurer, I'd say. It's not a matter of hate, going into dungeons and killing and looting goblins is standard adventuring activity.

As does this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html). With as paranoid as Belkar is about that Mark of Justice, it's pretty significant when he says that he doesn't even care about it.

I think it's got more to do with him being tired of MoJ and his constant hatred for everything and everyone.

Are we reading the same comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

Those are 1 HD hobgoblin mooks and Belkar has always been doing more damage than he should.

dbat19

2008-02-02, 08:04 PM

the most optimized build in Oots is the half-ogre with spike chain!

Even with the LA for being large and need 5 feat, that build is definitely the best melee build so far in the story, 2d6 damage, 2 free trip attack/disarm everyround your enemy close in, 15 feet reach, it's the best build against humanoid.

another build that i want to mention is my favorite character Hinjo, in core book, paladin is no where near uber, also there isn't any nice prestige class in core, so staying pure is a good choice, however, why katana!? it's not like paladin have that much feat for you to spend on a crappy +1 damage improve, and y not go the route of spirited charge?

Even with this, i still bet good dog Argent can beat Belkar...... as Hinjo is 10+level, Argent stat would be like 10d8+30(75hp) with a full attack 15/10 (1d8+11) and with dire wolf's trip ability and size modifier, Belkar just can't get up drom the floor:smallbiggrin:

osyluth

2008-02-03, 12:32 AM

:mitd: is probably pretty optimized, what with the whole 'stamping the ground and creating chasms' thing.

Chronos

2008-02-03, 02:54 PM

Those are 1 HD hobgoblin mooks and Belkar has always been doing more damage than he should.Circular argument, there... If Belkar has mostly been seen fighting his favored enemies, then his damage output makes sense.

ShinyRocks

2008-02-04, 09:58 AM

A couple of thoughts:

It was mentioned in another thread that Haley wasted a feat by learning how to use longbows, given that the extra range would nullify her sneak attacks. That right there is a lack of optimisation, I think.

I haven't played D&D for a LONG time, so maybe the class is dead, but it seems that Belkar would be a lot better suited to being a stalker than a pure ranger. A melee-focused ranger with sneak attack would be ideal for Belkar, if he's so concerned about the two-weapon fighting. Which he is.

Tempest Fennac

2008-02-04, 10:16 AM

There doesn't seem to be a class called "Stalker" on Crystal Keep's PrC list, but I'll try and find out if anyone knows about it.

ShinyRocks

2008-02-04, 10:23 AM

There doesn't seem to be a class called "Stalker" on Crystal Keep's PrC list, but I'll try and find out if anyone knows about it.

It's not even a prestige class - it was the class I played as in Baldur's Gate II. Which is why I think it's probably dead, because that's a really old version of the rules. I can't remember all the details, but you got sneak attack at a slower progression than a rogue and, maybe, sacrificed the animal companion. I'll check my BGII manual later.

EDIT: Ah, here we go. It's an AD&D class, so almost certainly redundant, but it's a ranger kit that can backstab and use a few mage spells, but can't wear higher than studded leather. Seems better for Belkar to me. Still not optimised, but more so than he is as a ranger/barbarian.