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Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 01:48 PM
I recently produced a warforged monk. The -2 to wisdom kinda hurt, but I bought a perapait of wisdom to make up for it. Anyway, the real issues come along later. I was looking through the sheet, and realized I kept my composite plating. Now, I still have another feat to spend, so it wouldn't be that much of a problem to take Unarmored Body, but I realized it's never really mentioned. This prompted an exhaustive search. Basically, the plating functions exactly like armor, occupies space like armor, and doesn't stack with other effects that add an Armor Bonus to AC. However, if it was armor, wouldn't they just say it was armor that you couldn't take off? It also has no armor penalty, another fishy bit. Then, later in the section on warforged in Races of Eberron, it says monk is a good class for warforged, because monks do not normally wear armor, so the Armor bonus is a great advantage. It also says you could enhance this bonus with Ironwood, Adamantine, and Mithral Body, and they only mention the armor check penalty as a downside. Also, Purity and Diamond Body are redundant on a warforged character. Do I just waste those levels, or are there substitution levels I don't know of?

So, opinions on the subject? Options for monks that would be nice for me to have?

Theli
2008-01-31, 02:05 PM
Yes, warforged monks are nice because they get a +2 bonus to AC without losing their monk abilities.

Races of Eberron is incorrect, however, in that other armor types for the warforged generally DO count as armor and would interfere.

And remember...the warforged's body can be enhanted just as much as any armor. This leaves open the bracer slot as you won't have to pick up bracers of armor.

Theli
2008-01-31, 02:09 PM
Ah you asked for other options...

Well, you can get the battlefist, which is enhancable. (Though the extent to which it can enhanced, and whether or not it affects strikes made by limbs other than the one with the attachment, is completely up to your DM.)

And the improved natural attack feat can be used to further improve your unarmed strikes.

Yes, those class features are generally wasted. Though one COULD imagine a poison which is created that specifically targets warforged. For this horribly unlikely scenario, it may be useful. :p

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 03:58 PM
I decided to pass on the AC bonus, instead taking the invulnerable enhancement. (+3 cost, DR 5/magic). I already own battlefists (Which I pictured as a pair), and gave them a shocking enhancement, so now I'm laying down 2d6+1d6E each hit. Then, I have Fiery Fists from PHBII, which lets me spend a stunning fist use for +1d6 fire damage for one turn at a time. So, 2d6+1d6E+1d6F 7/day.

Improved natural attack would probably affect my slam attack, rather than my unarmed strike. And stacking with my battlefists, I don't even know how that would work.

I still have 3k, and can't own an item worth more than 1k, after the prior costs. Suggestions?

Telonius
2008-01-31, 04:12 PM
Gray bag of tricks! :smallbiggrin:

Tanglefoot bags, alchemist's fire/spark/frost, Acid. Rope, universal solvent, crowbar, maybe a MW tool to help you repair yourself.

Theli
2008-01-31, 04:18 PM
Improved Natural Attack can be chosen specifically for an unarmed strike. That you have actual natural attacks is irrelevant.

As to stacking, the feat says that it increases the damage die size one level. As does the battlefist. (I've only seen it referred to in the singular.) I believe both are unnamed bonuses and therefore should stack, rather than overlap. But your DM may feel differently.

To get the invulnerability enhancement you'll need at least a +1 bonus... You can't gain special abilities, such as invulnerability, without it being at least +1.

CthulhuM
2008-01-31, 04:32 PM
You might want to consider taking some of the warforged feats that give you additional natural attacks. I know there's one that gives a bite attack, and another that gives an additional slam. As long as you're going to be full attacking whenever possible anyway, you might as well make your full attacks as nasty as you can.

Also, a +3 enhancement that gives you DR 5/magic really isn't that great (even if you could actually afford it). Most enemies beyond level 6 or 7 will be wielding magic weapons, and many monsters will have natural attacks that count as magical (or just deal so much damage on each hit that DR 5 doesn't do much against them).

Theli
2008-01-31, 04:40 PM
It's debatable whether or not you can use slams along with manufactured weapons during a full attack progression.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 04:43 PM
Improved Natural Attack can be chosen specifically for an unarmed strike. That you have actual natural attacks is irrelevant.

As to stacking, the feat says that it increases the damage die size one level. As does the battlefist. (I've only seen it referred to in the singular.) I believe both are unnamed bonuses and therefore should stack, rather than overlap. But your DM may feel differently.

To get the invulnerability enhancement you'll need at least a +1 bonus... You can't gain special abilities, such as invulnerability, without it being at least +1.
Battlefist doesn't increase die size, it increases effective monk size. So would my 2d6 become 2d8? What happens when I advance to 2d8, just go to 2d10? That's not even a registered monk damage size.

Wouldn't the inherent light fortification count for the +1?

Mavian
2008-01-31, 04:49 PM
Superior Unarmed Strike, and Improved Natural Attack are always good for monks.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 04:51 PM
You might want to consider taking some of the warforged feats that give you additional natural attacks. I know there's one that gives a bite attack, and another that gives an additional slam. As long as you're going to be full attacking whenever possible anyway, you might as well make your full attacks as nasty as you can.

Also, a +3 enhancement that gives you DR 5/magic really isn't that great (even if you could actually afford it). Most enemies beyond level 6 or 7 will be wielding magic weapons, and many monsters will have natural attacks that count as magical (or just deal so much damage on each hit that DR 5 doesn't do much against them).

Bite might be worth it. Another 1d6,and it's peircing, and the more damage types you can do, the better. Besides, that has to have a bonus on intimidate checks. Would you say no to a big robot with a maw full of glittering fangs?

Ah, well. I suppose +3 to AC is nothing to sneeze at.

Theli
2008-01-31, 04:54 PM
No, light fortification is a separate unique ability of the warforged. It isn't even a magical enhancement.

Ok, so not only are they separate, but they affect different parts of the unarmed strike.

The improved natural attack feat lists what the final damage dice will be. 2d6 would become 3d6. If you advance to 2d8, it will become 3d8.

Mavian
2008-01-31, 04:54 PM
Don't suppose you could show us what you've already got? Makes it easier to see what could fit in.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 05:02 PM
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/view.php?id=65220

There's the sheet, see what does and doesn't work.

Theli
2008-01-31, 05:10 PM
You're missing the non-variable damage bonus for your battletfist damage. It should be +2 total. (Since the battlefist has a +1 enhancement...)

That's about all I can spot atm.

Sornas
2008-01-31, 05:12 PM
Wouldn't the inherent light fortification count for the +1?

As far as I know, nope. Usually you need something to be a "+1 X" before you can put any enchantments on it, regardless of things that may be given from other sources.

That being said, it's not an uncommon houserule to ignore that bit.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 05:16 PM
You're missing the non-variable damage bonus for your battletfist damage. It should be +2 total. (Since the battlefist has a +1 enhancement...)

That's about all I can spot atm.

So, wait, is it +3 counting strength, or +2? +1 str, +1 enhancement, so does the shocking add another 1?

Theli
2008-01-31, 05:17 PM
No, sorry, just the +2. I didn't see any non-variable bonuses listed, so I stated just the final total.

Theli
2008-01-31, 05:21 PM
Also...the MISC bonuses are kinda odd... Monks unarmored bonus should only account for +4. But +7 is listed. Where's the extra +3 coming from?

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 05:27 PM
+3 dex, +3 wis, +1 bonus... Crap, I counted dex twice.

Theli
2008-01-31, 05:35 PM
Btw, looks like you had improved initiative at one point, but replaced it. Yet you still kept the +4 to initiative.

kemmotar
2008-01-31, 05:38 PM
well one thing i did do with my monk was take a 2 level dip in swordsage to get my wisx2 to my AC...the monk's AC bonus is untyped and the swordsages is either untyped or something misceleneous anyway...my DM allowed and it seems okay...

Also, i'd second superior unarmed strike and impr natural attack...also you can get the size progression of damage die in the arms and equipment die...that said itemwise you can get a chronocharm of the horizon walker if you often have to run away quickly or catch someone running away.

What it does is you take a swift action to move up to your speed and then act normally...with the monk's superior speed it's not something to ignore...it's from the MIC btw and 1/day

also feat wise, if you like charging get leap attack and mantis leap, 3x to strength on a jumping charge...

Also maybe an item that increases your size, enlarge person? giant size?well whatever you can get with creation guidelines...

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 05:48 PM
What is Superior Unarmed strike, and where can I find it?

Also, I don't have to book for swordsage, and have never heard of any of those feats/items.

Theli
2008-01-31, 05:53 PM
I believe it can be found in the Tome of Battle (as well as elsewhere) and it gives you the unarmed strike damage of a monk 9 levels higher.

Now since monk damage stops increasing at 20th level, it will have limited uses if you don't intend to multiclass/prc to something that doesn't continue to increase it at some point. (Although it's still useful if you don't intend to reach high levels with the character.)

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 06:09 PM
I believe it can be found in the Tome of Battle (as well as elsewhere) and it gives you the unarmed strike damage of a monk 9 levels higher.

Now since monk damage stops increasing at 20th level, it will have limited uses if you don't intend to multiclass/prc to something that doesn't continue to increase it at some point. (Although it's still useful if you don't intend to reach high levels with the character.)

After that the numbers would be just plain silly. 4d6+2+1d6E+1d6F=avg 20, +whatever other enhancements I add later.

MightyIgoo
2008-01-31, 06:17 PM
I believe each battlefist has to be bought separately, unfortunately. I agree with the +2 natural armor not interfering, but take any more than that and it blocks the monk's abilities.

Warforged monks are great! I had a warforged monk named "Hit" with two battlefists, with flame decals, no less, which were enchanted to burst into flame with a magic word (not sure if this was a DM special rule). Looked like a 6.5 foot robot with giant tattooed Popeye arms. Keeping an artificer NPC with a bottle of air safely in a bag of holding on his back kept him healthy and raring to go! Also, grapple-codpiece, but we won't go there....

What I really wanted to do with him is home-brew up a "robot punch", where his forearm would literally fire off and hit enemies at a distance, a la Mazinger Z.

As a side note, couldn't you paint your warforged character any which way you pleased? We need some enterprising gnomes to start up a custom paint shop for warforged!

Theli
2008-01-31, 06:18 PM
After the use of 2 feats, a magic item, and a special race selection...

There are other methods of exploitation which are far more efficient.

Theli
2008-01-31, 06:39 PM
I had a warforged monk named "Hit" with two battlefists, with flame decals, no less, which were enchanted to burst into flame with a magic word (not sure if this was a DM special rule).

It's actually a houserule to NOT require a command word to activate those elemental enhancements. For example, the flaming property specifies:

Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire.

And the rules for command activated items are:

Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

This is even restated under the rules for Magic Weapons:

Activation

Usually a character benefits from a magic weapon in the same way a character benefits from a mundane weapon—by attacking with it. If a weapon has a special ability that the user needs to activate then the user usually needs to utter a command word (a standard action).

As you can see, activation requires a standard action. So that's probably why so many people houserule it away. :p

D Knight
2008-01-31, 08:30 PM
ok frist off this grabed me and has been very instering. But i have one quick question and my sound like a noob but what is battlefist and where is it. also i think i am going to make a SS/monk warforged just to have some fun with me group.

Theli
2008-01-31, 08:48 PM
The battlefist is from the Eberron Campaign Setting, where warforged were introduced.

It's essentially just a +1 weapon that attaches to the warforged's hand (attaching and deattaching is a standard action that doesn't provoke). The enhancement bonus applies to both the warforged's unarmed strike and slam attacks. (There are no unenhanced battlefists, but they can be further enhanced.) The battlefist also increases those attacks damage die size.

I believe the cost is something like 2100gp, but I'm not sure. AFB currently.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 09:34 PM
The battlefist is from the Eberron Campaign Setting, where warforged were introduced.

It's essentially just a +1 weapon that attaches to the warforged's hand (attaching and deattaching is a standard action that doesn't provoke). The enhancement bonus applies to both the warforged's unarmed strike and slam attacks. (There are no unenhanced battlefists, but they can be further enhanced.) The battlefist also increases those attacks damage die size.

I believe the cost is something like 2100gp, but I'm not sure. AFB currently.

2700. And it moves slam damage to 1d8, and makes monk's unarmed strike move up by one size category.

Cuddly
2008-01-31, 10:37 PM
Would it be possible for you to play a monk that doesn't have any (or at least few) levels in monk? Because Warforged Juggernaught is an amazing prestige class.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-31, 11:04 PM
Would it be possible for you to play a monk that doesn't have any (or at least few) levels in monk? Because Warforged Juggernaught is an amazing prestige class.

Yes, it's amazing, but we have no healer and nothing even vaguely resembling an artificer. Sorry, but it's no good for this one.Besides, it needs adamantine body. If I ever make a fighter, I'll consider it.

leperkhaun
2008-02-01, 01:14 AM
I decided to pass on the AC bonus, instead taking the invulnerable enhancement. (+3 cost, DR 5/magic). I already own battlefists (Which I pictured as a pair), and gave them a shocking enhancement, so now I'm laying down 2d6+1d6E each hit. Then, I have Fiery Fists from PHBII, which lets me spend a stunning fist use for +1d6 fire damage for one turn at a time. So, 2d6+1d6E+1d6F 7/day.

Improved natural attack would probably affect my slam attack, rather than my unarmed strike. And stacking with my battlefists, I don't even know how that would work.

I still have 3k, and can't own an item worth more than 1k, after the prior costs. Suggestions?

id pass on the invulnerable enchantment and take the straight AC or another enchantment. Really quick things are going to be passing that like its not even there.

Talic
2008-02-01, 01:22 AM
It's actually a houserule to NOT require a command word to activate those elemental enhancements. For example, the flaming property specifies:


And the rules for command activated items are:


This is even restated under the rules for Magic Weapons:


As you can see, activation requires a standard action. So that's probably why so many people houserule it away. :p

I don't houserule that. It doesn't have a listed duration, so it's "until you turn it off". To create the same effect of a no command word sword, just leave it on. This also allows you to turn it OFF (for example, against a creature benefited by fire).

Theli
2008-02-01, 01:36 AM
I don't houserule that. It doesn't have a listed duration, so it's "until you turn it off". To create the same effect of a no command word sword, just leave it on. This also allows you to turn it OFF (for example, against a creature benefited by fire).

True enough, but it ignores any consequences of sheathing the weapon.


Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire.

Since it doesn't say that it does damage to anything but what you hit, people like to play as if it didn't matter if it was constantly on.

I gotta question if that was really the intention behind the design. (I mean, why bother with standard action command activation if it doesn't matter if its on all the time? They could just as easily have made it a free action, since it is just a command word after all.)

So I strongly suspect that the intentions of these rules aren't reflected well by the specific mechanics presented. However, yes, I simply can't prove that its the case that keeping the weapon on all the time amounts to a general inconvenience. (Now if you purposely had your weapon in hand while activated near 100% of the time...well I can't really say anything about that. Except maybe that you're a mad, paranoid, anti-social fool that cares nothing for stealth. :p But hey, that's just how some people like to play I guess...)

Still, it just doesn't sit right with me. So my own personal, probably not demanded by RAW, interpretation is that if you tried to sheath the elemental weapon without deactivating it, it would either harm its sheath, if it has one, or risk harming items you may pass by or bump into.