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Tokiko Mima
2008-01-31, 02:56 PM
Just a quick rules question, because it can't be this simple:

Scenario: A defending character is using a reach weapon of some kind (longspear, ranseur, spiked chain, etc) and has the 'Evasive Reflexes' Feat. They are being charged and their attacking opponent has to enter, then leave their threatened area. This triggers an Attack of Opportunity for the defending character.

Evasive Reflexes allows the defender to take a 5 foot step instead of an Attack of Opportunity. The defending character take this step to move away and perpendicular to the attacking character, and out of range of their melee attack.

Conclusion: Unless the defender is up against a wall and cannot move out of the way, they cannot be successfully charged.

So my question is: Does this work,or is there an AoO rule I missed? It seems like an awfully easy way to beat a lot of uber-charger builds. Granted, it would just mean that Charger builds would just need to use reach weapons as well, but I see an awful large amount of them with two-handed sword specific feats.

Person_Man
2008-01-31, 03:17 PM
Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon means that you can sometimes avoid a Charge. You generally also have to take Hold the Line to step all the way out of the enemy's reach though.

You should also mix in Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit, so that you can step away after an enemy attacks, thus thwarting most full attack actions.

It's a potent combo. But consider that you're giving up several attacks, and that many enemies have more then 5 ft of reach, and that many enemies don't rely on melee attacks, or can avoid provoking AoO via a variety of means.

sonofzeal
2008-01-31, 03:17 PM
Potential problem - most of the time when you're being charged, a 5-foot-step won't take you out of the path of the charge. I would rule that unless you can step into a square they can't reach (unlikely if they're charging straight for you), they still get their attack off.

Now, a Meteor Hammer and Combat Reflexes might work for that. Or any old reach weapon with "Stand Still". Or take the "Martial Study" feat and pick "Counter Charge". Or ready "Dimension Door". Or ready a lance and DARE them to charge you.

You're not really short on options here.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-31, 03:42 PM
Potential problem - most of the time when you're being charged, a 5-foot-step won't take you out of the path of the charge. I would rule that unless you can step into a square they can't reach (unlikely if they're charging straight for you), they still get their attack off.

Well, there's always 3 squares directly behind the defender (relative to the attacker) that are beyond the normal 5 foot melee range. A person declaring a charge has to pick an endpoint, and can't follow you until you stop moving. Unless those are somehow occupied or blocked, taking a 5 foot step out of melee range shouldn't be that hard? :smallconfused:

Burley
2008-01-31, 04:15 PM
Or, for an easier way to stop a charge: Take improved trip and any reach weapon that gives a bonus to trip. (I, personally, would not use a spiked-chain, since it's over-used IMHO, and I just think the funky hooked spear looks, or the scythe, looks cooler.
Anyways, let them charge at you, with their -2 AC, you attack with your bonuses to trip and Viola, you got an angry fella flat on his prone face. If nothing else...Great for a laugh.
You use two feats to get Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and maybe a third to get the weapon you wanna use, if you picked one you aren't proficient with. Get an attack and avoid the charge.

Edit: The spear I'm thinking of is the Guisarme. And, you get a +4 to your strength to trip them. (Keep in mind that tripping is a opposed STR check, and the Charger gets a bonus on the attack roll, not necessarily to strength, unless they're bullrushing.)

Yakk
2008-01-31, 05:02 PM
Reading the SRD, I don't see anything that prevents a charger from moving further in response to your move. So long as he moves to the closest location to where he started from, and there is a clear line from starting location to ending location, the charge works.

See:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge

In effect, you move out of the way, but your opponent can "swerve" to keep the charge working.

Theli
2008-01-31, 05:12 PM
A charge must be done in a straight line...

So sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.

Frosty
2008-01-31, 05:13 PM
Or, if the attacker has Fleet of Foot, he can even turn up to 90 degrees during the charge anyways.

Roderick_BR
2008-01-31, 05:13 PM
It's a cool trick, but Stand Still may be a better feat against chargers. Combine it with Evasive Reflexes and a reach weapon, and you can keep most enemies away from you. Or use Defensive Throw with Hold the Line to start a trip lock.

The_Snark
2008-01-31, 05:17 PM
You don't have a charge endpoint that's set in stone, no. If you're moving normally and something happens (readied action, attack of opportunity), you could change what you were going to do after the interrupting event. The same goes for charging, except that you're not allowed to change direction. You could run an extra 5 feet in the same direction, though, assuming you weren't charging from maximum range already.

There's nothing forcing you to stick to that exact same spot.

Person_Man
2008-01-31, 05:44 PM
Reading the SRD, I don't see anything that prevents a charger from moving further in response to your move. So long as he moves to the closest location to where he started from, and there is a clear line from starting location to ending location, the charge works.

See:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge

In effect, you move out of the way, but your opponent can "swerve" to keep the charge working.

A charge must be done in a strait line. If you have Evasive Reflexes + Hold the Line + a reach weapon, you can take two 5 ft steps to the right or left in reaction to your enemy passing through your threatened squares. There's nothing in the rules that allows him to change the trajectory of his initial charge movement. You cannot turn during a charge. So unless your enemy has more then 10 feet of reach, or he's a Drunken Master or has a similar ability, the charge fails.

I'd also note that just being able to Fly or create difficult terrain also automatically stops most charge attacks, and there are about a million ways to do so.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-31, 05:51 PM
Agreed, but I was thinking this was such a such a cheap and easy Feat to use, and the charger really doesn't have a chance to hit you as long as you have more reach than he does. Unlike a trip attempt, or waiting for an attack that might hurt you, it pretty much automatically takes you out of danger.

The Feat text even suggests that the 5 foot step is instead of taking an Attack of Opportunity, meaning it can be used a limitless number of times since it doesn't count as an AoO. That is, whenever the attacker tries to close the gap to attack range, the defender gets to 5' step away (as long as they aren't tricked into boxing themselves in, of course!)

What I think is the point here is that this Feat and a longspear might be all a low level sorcerer/warlock/beguiler needs to keep any one or two melee warriors (without polearms or reach weapons) at bay. It's pretty easy for a non-warrior to qualify for this, after all. The only prerequisite is Dexterity 13!

Lochar
2008-01-31, 05:54 PM
Yes, but since you're using in place of an AoO, you only get 1 AoO unless you have Combat Reflexes.

Theli
2008-01-31, 06:00 PM
You can't get multiple attacks of opportunity for the same action. In this case, even if you could move multiple times, the charge would not provoke more than once.

As to the "instead of" catch, that's a...unique...method of interpreting the text, but one can't imagine that that would be anything close to the intent of the feat.

UglyPanda
2008-01-31, 06:03 PM
What about karmic strike or robilar's gambit? Wouldn't that make it hard for the enemy to get a full attack on you?

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-31, 06:09 PM
You aren't using it in the place of an AoO, you're using it instead of taking an AoO. Here's the feat text and a link to WotC's listing:


Evasive Reflexes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060706a)

When an opponent gives you an opening in combat, you know exactly what to do: slip away.

Prerequisite: Dex 13

Benefit: When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead immediately take a 5-foot step.

Special: Evasive Reflexes can be used in place of Combat Reflexes to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. You can take both this feat and Combat Reflexes.

And before someone points it out, this is a little like this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), except you only need one Feat and simple weapon proficiency.

The_Snark
2008-01-31, 06:12 PM
Agreed, but I was thinking this was such a such a cheap and easy Feat to use, and the charger really doesn't have a chance to hit you as long as you have more reach than he does. Unlike a trip attempt, or waiting for an attack that might hurt you, it pretty much automatically takes you out of danger.

The Feat text even suggests that the 5 foot step is instead of taking an Attack of Opportunity, meaning it can be used a limitless number of times since it doesn't count as an AoO. That is, whenever the attacker tries to close the gap to attack range, the defender gets to 5' step away (as long as they aren't tricked into boxing themselves in, of course!)

What I think is the point here is that this Feat and a longspear might be all a low level sorcerer/warlock/beguiler needs to keep any one or two melee warriors (without polearms or reach weapons) at bay. It's pretty easy for a non-warrior to qualify for this, after all. The only prerequisite is Dexterity 13!

Except that they only provoke an attack the first time they move out of one of your threatened squares, and then for the rest of the round they can move through them with impunity.


Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesnít count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Person Man's Combat Reflexes/Hold the Line/Evasive Reflexes stratagem will work against anything without reach, but at that point you've invested three feats. Being immune to non-reach charges is only a decent benefit for that investment, especially since you could be making 2 attacks of opportunity against them instead.


What about karmic strike or robilar's gambit? Wouldn't that make it hard for the enemy to get a full attack on you?

Yep. But keep in mind that if they have reach, they may be able to keep attacking you anyway, and that they can take a 5-ft step too.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-31, 06:15 PM
What about karmic strike or robilar's gambit? Wouldn't that make it hard for the enemy to get a full attack on you?

They would indeed, but Evasive Reflexes used this way might prevent you from even being close enough to be attacked at all. Everytime the attacker tries to get close he provokes an AoO, and the defender moves 5 feet away.

Theli
2008-01-31, 06:15 PM
When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead immediately take a 5-foot step.

"Instead" here seems to obviously work on the default assumption of "making an attack of opportunity". Basically, instead of making the attack, you take a 5-foot step.

Incidentally, one can read this in a manner where since it references "5-foot step" specifically, you can't make an additional 5-foot step if you've already made one that round.

But hey, if you want to nitpick your way to exploiting something beyond its likely RAI applications, who am I to stop you? (Damn, there's really a lot of this going around on this forum lately...)

The_Snark
2008-01-31, 06:16 PM
They would indeed, but Evasive Reflexes used this way might prevent you from even being close enough to be attacked at all. Everytime the attacker tries to get close he provokes an AoO, and the defender moves 5 feet away.

They only provoke the first time they leave your threatened square. From then on, they don't provoke anything, whether or not you took the AoO.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-31, 06:23 PM
Except that they only provoke an attack the first time they move out of one of your threatened squares, and then for the rest of the round they can move through them with impunity.

Ah! I did not know that. So once I take an AoO from a foe for moving out of their threatened area, I can move in and out at will? that's good to know... my last DM hit me with three AoO's trying to swim away from a huge shark, and I assumed that you got AoO's as long as you remain moving out of the threatened area. But I can see what you mean here:


Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesnít count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Glyphic
2008-01-31, 06:47 PM
"Instead" here seems to obviously work on the default assumption of "making an attack of opportunity". Basically, instead of making the attack, you take a 5-foot step.

Incidentally, one can read this in a manner where since it references "5-foot step" specifically, you can't make an additional 5-foot step if you've already made one that round.

But hey, if you want to nitpick your way to exploiting something beyond its likely RAI applications, who am I to stop you? (Damn, there's really a lot of this going around on this forum lately...)

My friend and I were trying to combine this feat with the good old commoner rail gun. Commoners line up from here to waterdeep, and start making unarmed attacks against you. Within 6 seconds, you're there! (and the commoners still have a actions left to pass things back and fourth!)

Worira
2008-01-31, 06:49 PM
Granted, it would just mean that Charger builds would just need to use reach weapons as well, but I see an awful large amount of them with two-handed sword specific feats.


I really can't think of any two-handed sword specific feats uberchargers would want. Also, why not just take Stand Still?

Talic
2008-02-01, 01:43 AM
Reading the SRD, I don't see anything that prevents a charger from moving further in response to your move. So long as he moves to the closest location to where he started from, and there is a clear line from starting location to ending location, the charge works.

See:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge

In effect, you move out of the way, but your opponent can "swerve" to keep the charge working.

Simple. Guy charges dead on to you top center square, straight from north to south. When he Provokes, by moving from 10 feet to 5, you step back and to the left. when he provokes again, by moving from 10 feet to 5, you step to any of the squares on the left.

Voila, you've used 2 AOO's, which means you need Combat Reflexes, but the attacker can no longer move in a straight line. Since he has already declared a charge (a special attack action), he cannot then go back to another attack type.

There is no angle and direction that you can be charged from that won't get you out of the charge with one to two five foot steps.

EDIT: Many builds use two handed weapon feats, but most reach weapons are also two handed.

deadseashoals
2008-02-01, 04:56 AM
Simple. Guy charges dead on to you top center square, straight from north to south. When he Provokes, by moving from 10 feet to 5, you step back and to the left. when he provokes again, by moving from 10 feet to 5, you step to any of the squares on the left.

Voila, you've used 2 AOO's, which means you need Combat Reflexes, but the attacker can no longer move in a straight line. Since he has already declared a charge (a special attack action), he cannot then go back to another attack type.

There is no angle and direction that you can be charged from that won't get you out of the charge with one to two five foot steps.

EDIT: Many builds use two handed weapon feats, but most reach weapons are also two handed.

They would only provoke once, which is why this won't work a lot of the time.

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-14, 08:03 PM
ok lets try a new perspective

it's clear that you cant make more than one aoo per provoking action, in this case a charge. but, and just hear me out on this, it does not say anything about multiple provocations per actions, it only says you cant make aoo's for each provocation.

now, since Evasive Reflexes allows you to move instead of making an aoo, then, theoretically you can use Evasive Reflexes multiple times, as long as you have combat reflexes too, but can only make one actual aoo. Theoretically.

of course either way you look at it, it's cheese, munchkining and maybe even powergaming which is kinda lame. thats right, a kobold says powergaming and munchkining are lame. no pun-pun here. I play kobolds to handicap myself... and for the pure comedy gold, of course.

Thrawn183
2008-02-14, 08:38 PM
Here's a thought: You have a reach weapon and hold the line (medium size not large). Your opponent has a reach weapon and is medium sized. When he provokes for enterring a square you threaten while charging, step 5 feet forward, he shouldn't be able to hit you anymore (at least not with the weapon that he's probably best with). Whatcha think?

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-14, 09:00 PM
Here's a thought: You have a reach weapon and hold the line (medium size not large). Your opponent has a reach weapon and is medium sized. When he provokes for enterring a square you threaten while charging, step 5 feet forward, he shouldn't be able to hit you anymore (at least not with the weapon that he's probably best with). Whatcha think?

I bow before your mighty wisdom... Bravo indeed!

deadseashoals
2008-02-14, 09:15 PM
ok lets try a new perspective

it's clear that you cant make more than one aoo per provoking action, in this case a charge. but, and just hear me out on this, it does not say anything about multiple provocations per actions, it only says you cant make aoo's for each provocation.

now, since Evasive Reflexes allows you to move instead of making an aoo, then, theoretically you can use Evasive Reflexes multiple times, as long as you have combat reflexes too, but can only make one actual aoo. Theoretically.

of course either way you look at it, it's cheese, munchkining and maybe even powergaming which is kinda lame. thats right, a kobold says powergaming and munchkining are lame. no pun-pun here. I play kobolds to handicap myself... and for the pure comedy gold, of course.

What? Clearly not, you only provoke once when moving.


Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesnít count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Miles Invictus
2008-02-14, 09:27 PM
Exactly. It doesn't matter whether you take the attack of opportunity or the five-foot step; either way, your opponent is done provoking.

The_Snark
2008-02-14, 09:38 PM
Here's a thought: You have a reach weapon and hold the line (medium size not large). Your opponent has a reach weapon and is medium sized. When he provokes for enterring a square you threaten while charging, step 5 feet forward, he shouldn't be able to hit you anymore (at least not with the weapon that he's probably best with). Whatcha think?

... hmmm, I think that one works. It does have two drawbacks, though-

1. Only works for enemies wielding reach weapons, and...

2. The next such enemy your DM throws at you will probably use a spiked chain.

Draz74
2008-02-14, 09:39 PM
Here's a thought: You have a reach weapon and hold the line (medium size not large). Your opponent has a reach weapon and is medium sized. When he provokes for enterring a square you threaten while charging, step 5 feet forward, he shouldn't be able to hit you anymore (at least not with the weapon that he's probably best with). Whatcha think?

Works, unless he has a feat that lets him use a reach weapon up close (the most common being, "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)").

Of course, some reach fighters have a pretty good backup weapon, even if they don't use a spiked chain. (Like magic armor spikes.)

Leewei
2008-02-14, 09:59 PM
This feat could also conceivably allow you extra movement whenever an ally moves through your threatened area. After all, you could AoO them -- you just don't because you're not Belkar.

Person_Man
2008-02-15, 10:56 AM
Person Man's Combat Reflexes/Hold the Line/Evasive Reflexes stratagem will work against anything without reach, but at that point you've invested three feats. Being immune to non-reach charges is only a decent benefit for that investment, especially since you could be making 2 attacks of opportunity against them instead.

Precisely. You're making a pretty big trade for a modest benefit. Useful, but nothing phenomenal or game breaking. If anything, I would give it to a low hit point caster who generally stays away from the front line. The combo isn't that useful to a Meat Shield, but it could really save the life of a Wizard.


Yep. But keep in mind that if they have reach, they may be able to keep attacking you anyway, and that they can take a 5-ft step too.

True. But plenty of monsters have more then 2 attacks. Basically, Evasive Reflexes + Karmic Strike and/or Rob's Gambit just prevents you from being utterly pummeled.

Also, if you're a Knight or Crusader you might want Thicket of Blades + Evasive Reflexes + Hold the Line + Rob's Gambit + reach weapon. If your main goal is just to tie up and annoy enemies until the casters have a chance to blow them up, this would be a good method.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-16, 07:40 PM
Ok, so now, what we need is a bunch of Commoners attempting to punch you bare-handed, and each time they do, you move 5 feet forwards, where the next one has a readied action to do the same. They keep doing this until you run out of AoOs(1+Dexterity Mod if you have Combat Reflexes). Assuming you have 20 Dexterity(not unreasonable at level 20), that's 30 feet of movement per 6 seconds. Doesn't sound too impressive, except that this is in addition to your regular Run/Charge movement for those 6 seconds.:smallbiggrin: