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JMobius
2008-02-01, 01:15 AM
I enjoy the Revised system. The bulk of my gametime as a player has been through it, and I am currently in the middle of GMing a long campaign in the system. While I'm not exactly a big SW fan, I find the ruleset considerably more appealing to my sensibilities than D&D.

One of my players recently bought the Saga edition book. I've been hesitant to pick it up, as from my admittedly rather vague knowledge of the changes, the new system sounded rather unappealing. As I talked with him about the system, though, it sounds like it might not actually be as bad as I thought.

I'm curious about the opinions of people who have experience with both systems. How have you felt about the transition? Do you prefer Saga edition to its predecessor?

Cheers.

Jack Zander
2008-02-01, 01:21 AM
I haven't played the two, only SWSE but from what I understand the skills are handled much much better and the concept of the Jedi is vastly improved as well (there is only one Jedi Class and it isn't overpowered at all).

Neek
2008-02-01, 01:29 AM
One of Star Wars d20 Revised's problem was that the Jedi classes, their existence alone, would imbalance a party. It took a good GM to balance the encounters so that the Jedi wouldn't take the spotlight each time. For the less capable GMs, it was better playing all Jedi or no Jedi.

I would really like to know how Saga fixed this.

Jack Zander
2008-02-01, 01:37 AM
Saga fixed it in two ways. The first was to give all characters force potential. In order to cast Force powers, you need two feats. Jedi get the first feat for free at 1st level. The second was to make the other classes actually useful. Soldiers can be better tanks and damage dealers than a combat focused Jedi can be. Jedi get the least number of trained skills so you still need a noble, scoundrel, or scout to hack into computers or the like. The best thing Jedi have going for them is all their defensive options.

Although, force powers at levels 1-5 are horribly overpowered (provided you take Skill Focus: Use the Force) and melee combat is overpowered at levels 16-20. Ranged combat is always good though.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-01, 01:50 AM
Yeah, the balance is that jedi are not unique in having force powers...anyone can pick up the force sensitive feat and have access to several low level powers and then get force training and have a slew of reusable abilities. Jedi have lots of options, but generally they are melee focused or focused on diplomacy or their force powers...great on not being hit and capable of staying alive with certian talents despite heavy opposition. But th eother classes have their uses too.

Skills can only be trained if they are part of your class skil list...so, if the skill isn't on the jedi list, they need other classes to have those skills available to the party. also...each different class has many useful abilities that are unique to that class that really make them shine in some way. Nobles can become some insane leaders granting all in their line of sight crazy bonuses, grant people extra actions, basically be a bard on crack...even heal people slightly in combat. Scouts are skill monkeys and have some interesting abilities...evasion is a key one. As is the tech specialist talent tree (or is that scoundral)...Scoundral is awesome with all the options. Sneak attacks, bonus condition damage, luck and other bonuses...a soldier...well...a soldier just kicks ass...that is what they do. They have skills that allow them to 'crit' more easily and to just hammer people.

The system also encourages you to dip into other classes more...it is actually quite beneficial to do so most of the time (pick up a starting feat, different class bonuses to defense, a starting feat, and a talent)

A.Sondergaard
2008-02-01, 03:09 AM
Having played SAGA since about a week or two after its release, I can say a few things.

First, the talents from the base classes pretty much suffer from the same issues the fighter has in 3/3.5. After about five to seven levels of a particular class, you've probably got what could be considered the peak ability for a given build, unless you PrC out.

Second, the lack of iterative attacks makes attacking more than once with the same weapon a long term goal, and makes a really narrowly defined build. There are two feats that let you make a second and third attack, but each adds a cumulative -5 penalty to all attacks you make in the round, including AoO. So...to make three attacks with a lightsaber, you take -10 on all attacks in the round. Bummer. The way around this, is that for almost every category of weapons, except for simple and advanced melee, there's a prestige class that has a talent that'll lesson the multiattack penalty by 2 for each time you take it. That, and you can't use a swift action in any round you make more than one attack, because you'd have to use a full round action to do it. Making multiple attacks isn't so much of an option, it's a life choice; you have to waste several talents to do it without penalty, and in gaining those talents, the PrC you get them from robs you of up to four feats by that time, since PrCs in SAGA never grant bonus feats. It's almost certainly easier to build a character that makes single strong attacks than one that makes efficient use of Double/Triple Attack.

There are other minor things, too. You can take AoO with pistonls, grappling works even worse than it does in D&D, if you can believe that, characters focused using the Force are still pretty much better than non-Force using builds, droids are slightly less viable as PCs than they were in RCR, given the lack of a CON score. By RAW, I'm not entirely certain they can even use Second Wind. The book never says that they can't, per se, but it does say under "Repair" that, and I quote...
PG. 188, Core Rulebook
Droids can regain lost hit points only through the use of the Mechanics skill.It'd be simple enough to say that they can use Second Wind, and just to say they recalibrate certain systems, or activate ventilation systems to prevent overheating.

The one big improvement in SAGA is ease of play. Book-keeping is kept to a minimum, leveling up is a snap, and in general, unless you really try at it, there's not really any sort of underpowered build, so to speak.
...and melee combat is overpowered at levels 16-20.I'm not certain how you came to this conclusion. Could you explain a little?


PS-Sneak Attack is totally not worth it in this game, not for +1d6 per talent spent it isn't. You can't even gain the bonus damage when flanking.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-01, 07:17 AM
.
There are other minor things, too. You can take AoO with pistonls, grappling works even worse than it does in D&D, if you can believe that, characters focused using the Force are still pretty much better than non-Force using builds, droids are slightly less viable as PCs than they were in RCR, given the lack of a CON score. By RAW, I'm not entirely certain they can even use Second Wind. The book never says that they can't, per se, but it does say under "Repair" that, and I quote...It'd be simple enough to say that they can use Second Wind, and just to say they recalibrate certain systems, or activate ventilation systems to prevent overheating.


Driods do get Str to Threshold (or Fort). That helps.
Second wind doesn't really recover hps, more like gives them back. And you can never get full health using second wind.

Droids without heroic levels can't use second wind.

Also, buy your Droid shields and it will be like having more hps. Any PC Droid casn get shields (as PCs need to be small or meduim usually).
Even SR 5 is pretty nice.

JMobius
2008-02-01, 10:22 AM
I find it odd that there are a lot of complaints about force abilities being overpowered in the revised system? Its certainly nowhere near the scale of brokenness that magic in D&D suffers from. If anything is overpowered, it's lightsabers, but the jedi counciling errata provides plenty of variant rules to fix that.

Jack Zander
2008-02-01, 11:11 AM
I'm not certain how you came to this conclusion. Could you explain a little?

Sure. At high levels Force powers will hardly ever work well given that skills increase 1/2 per level while defenses increase 1 per level (then factor in ways to avoid them such as other force powers, etc.). A melee focused build will surely have one or two powerful attacks each round (augmented with Force Powers probably) to deal way over the DT of average characters. They will likely also take a character down 2-3 times the condition track rather than just once. This leaves characters being taken out in 2-3 rounds reguardless of how much HP they have, and while they are being hit, they suffer massive penalties to everything.

I dunno, maybe my group hasn't found out how to make good melee defense builds yet.


If anything is overpowered, it's lightsabers.

How are lightsabers themselves overpowered? A melee-focused Jedi can make a lightsaber a dangerous weapon, but the weapon itself is rather sub-par when compared to most other weapons. An ancient weapon is no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

Mando Knight
2008-02-01, 11:47 AM
At high levels Force powers will hardly ever work well given that skills increase 1/2 per level while defenses increase 1 per level (then factor in ways to avoid them such as other force powers, etc.).

Well, if you take Skill Focus: Use the Force, even at high levels your UTF modifier will be higher than your BAB, and will be so until you hit level 20, assuming the ability modifiers are the same...

Also, Force Lightning can move the target -1 step on the condition track, plus its 8d6 damage... Force Grip can cause 6d6 damage and limits the target's movements (and doesn't require checks against a Defense to activate the damage...), and Force Stun can effectively immobilize an opponent since it causes the opponent to fall a step down the condition track equal to 1 + the excess UTF result divided by 5...

For viable melee defenses without going Jedi, take Dodge, Improved Defenses, and Martial Arts. In total, that will give you an effective Reflex defense 5 levels higher than normal. Also, if you take the Improved Armored Defense talent, you can add 1/2 of your armor bonus to your level for your Reflex Defense, giving you a possible +3 bonus (stormtrooper armor is actually pretty good...)

Also, the Ace Pilot PrC has the advantage of a +4 to Reflex Defense at the 1st level, and Elite Trooper has DR equal to 1/2 of his Elite Trooper level. Yes, you'll lose your fancy bonus feats, but I think that the higher defenses, Force points, HPs (maybe, E. Trooper gets d12 hit dice, but Ace Pilot only has d8s... however, there are no d6 hit dice PrCs here...), and better talents make up for it. PrCs also allow you to ease up on the Attack Bonus penalties for using multiple attacks--if you're a Jedi, Sith, Elite Trooper, or Gunslinger, that is...

Attilargh
2008-02-01, 11:47 AM
How are lightsabers themselves overpowered? A melee-focused Jedi can make a lightsaber a dangerous weapon, but the weapon itself is rather sub-par when compared to most other weapons.
In Revised the damage scaled with the Jedi's class level, all the way up to 6d8 for a 20th level Jedi Guardian and probably even higher with thew right PrCs.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-01, 11:54 AM
Well, if you take Skill Focus: Use the Force, even at high levels your UTF modifier will be higher than your BAB, and will be so until you hit level 20, assuming the ability modifiers are the same...

Also, Force Lightning can move the target -1 step on the condition track, plus its 8d6 damage...

Darkside points are kinda limiting the use of that.

Jerthanis
2008-02-01, 12:28 PM
I've picked this book up recently with plans of running a Star Wars game in the near future and I've got some questions/complaints that I'd like settled, and hopefully, it will help the OP decide whether the system is what he wants.

First of all, did they intend the game to be pretty much as melee focused as it is? Sure, the blasters deal a bit more base damage, but Two Handed melee weapons have Power Attack, and double strength to damage. Considering Iterative attacks are difficult to acquire, and not entirely worth it even when you do, it seems like the point of combat in this system is to get one very strong attack in per round, and this seems to favor melee. Not to mention, there aren't a lot of talent trees to make blasters deal significantly more damage, but there IS the Soldier Melee Smash tree. If there were more options for upgrading blaster damage than melee in terms of feats, I'd say they were balanced, but every option for blasters has an analogue for melee. It seems like the only way to make blasters more appealing than Vibroaxes and Force Pikes is to make combats take place over huge stretches of difficult terrain, with blaster-wielding mooks shooting at the party from 250 feet away (Oh, excuse me, 50 squares). What if I'm running players through, say, cooridoors in a Star Destroyer, or down dank hallways in a ruined base, where people are going to be less than 6 squares away from anyone else at all times? How are blasters good then? A Wookie soldier with a 20 strength and a Force Pike will be doing WAY more damage than a comparable Soldier with a 20 dexterity and a heavy blaster pistol.

Also: Why don't Jedi have the option to select Force Training as a bonus feat? They can take Skill Focus: Use the Force, but not Force Training? Is there a reason the game seems to want Jedi to only ever use more utilitarian force powers once per encounter?

My last question for now is this: Could they have possibly been more confusing with their descriptions of what determines whether you have cover or not if they tried? I'm reasonably familiar with cover rules in D&D, but Star Wars still confused me. It seems like there's no way for you to have cover against another without them also having cover against you... but the example seems to contradict this.

Hmm... that's all I can think of for now.

Attilargh
2008-02-01, 01:16 PM
Why would anyone go into a cramped corridor with a raging wookiee bodybuilder with a force pike? Seriously?

Beleriphon
2008-02-01, 01:19 PM
Also: Why don't Jedi have the option to select Force Training as a bonus feat? They can take Skill Focus: Use the Force, but not Force Training? Is there a reason the game seems to want Jedi to only ever use more utilitarian force powers once per encounter?

So they aren't hideously broken, and any character can take Force Training as long as they have Force Sensitive. If you give Jedi the Force Training feat as a bonus feat they can take that every other level, when the idea was to make any character a capable Force user, or even let a Jedi character not have levels in that class.

A.Sondergaard
2008-02-01, 01:52 PM
I dunno, maybe my group hasn't found out how to make good melee defense builds yet.Ah...must be a difference in groups, then. Ours had our frontliners running around with like 27 reflex by level 7. Throw on an Improved Damage Threshold or two, and you're good to go. But yeah, I could see how it would be different if your group were less focused on defense.

Person_Man
2008-02-01, 03:17 PM
I've only played Saga, and I've only played it a couple of times. So I'm not really an expert on the subject. But I really enjoyed the game, and think that the base mechanics are quite good.

The only big problems I saw:

1) Certain special attacks (Grapple, Disarm, certain Force abilities) are either cumbersome, annoying, or very unlikely to work - so players and DMs avoid them, even though they would otherwise be clever/fun/interesting tactics.

2) There is no penalty for multi-classing. In fact, its highly rewarded. Each class and PrC basically has 1-4 powerful Talents, with the remaining Talents being Skill focused (which is only useful if you want your character to excel at a particular Skill) or weak (usually providing a +1 or +2 bonus to something). So there's very little reason to go Anything 20, or even Class 10/Prestige Class 10. This can lead to very disjointed fluff, especially if everyone in the party multi-classes.

3) A lucky and/or optimized Jedi with Block and Deflect talents can get really out of hand sometimes. I found it difficult to balance combat against a mixed non-Jedi/Jedi group, though it was still a lot less difficult then trying to balance combat against a group with a Monk and a Wizard using Greater Invisibility and Polymorph.

4) Many of the pictures are repeated multiple times in the same book, which is unforgiveable. If you have space and budget for art, at least go to the trouble of making each picture unique and interesting. Worse yet, most of the droids, vehicles, and equipment have no art whatsoever, and short descriptions.

Attilargh
2008-02-01, 03:47 PM
This can lead to very disjointed fluff, especially if everyone in the party multi-classes.
The class names are not to be taken literally. The Jedi class is named such only because "possibly lightsaber-swinging Force-User who exhibits many of the traits associated with the Jedi order" is a bit long. Similarly, Noble is much less cumbersome to use than "person who happens to be filthy rich, well connected, just really inspirational or some or all of the above". I don't think it's really all that hard to rationalize class-hopping.

Divine Storm
2008-02-01, 04:48 PM
Having played both revised and saga I have to say that I'm loving saga. Of course a lot of that could be due to the fact that I have a MUCH better group of players for my saga game than I ever did for a revised game... and that saga got my lady into PnP... and that I'm a huge fan of most things new.

But all those biases aside.... Saga does a lot of things really well, as previous people have mentioned the classes are quite a bit better balanced than they were before, although it could seem that way since it's new enough that my players haven't figured out how to break it yet... I like the talent system as well, makes every level feel like it's signifigant in some way, no 5th level fighter type thing for sure.

My biggest complaint is the lack of provided opponents to put your players up against out of the source book. While they have the basic creatures and adversarys it's sort of a pain having to upscale everything once your players hit certain levels.

Jack Zander
2008-02-01, 05:11 PM
My biggest complaint is the lack of provided opponents to put your players up against out of the source book. While they have the basic creatures and adversarys it's sort of a pain having to upscale everything once your players hit certain levels.

Agreed, they definitely need to come out with a villain supplement. I mean, they mention the Yuuzhan Vong and give you their stats, but they expect you to create the NPCs yourself. Lolwut? I adlib too much to prepare encounters (my chaotic players have taught me this habit (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/darthsanddroids/episodes/0041.html)).

Jerthanis
2008-02-01, 06:07 PM
Why would anyone go into a cramped corridor with a raging wookiee bodybuilder with a force pike? Seriously?

The question actually is, if you can assume there will be times where battles break out at 40 feet or less (or even up to 70 feet on a charge), why would you play a Human with a Blaster Rifle as a Soldier if you could be a raging Wookiee bodybuilder with a force pike? Seriously? I mean, other than the fact that gargling all over the table all night would be a pain...


So they aren't hideously broken, and any character can take Force Training as long as they have Force Sensitive. If you give Jedi the Force Training feat as a bonus feat they can take that every other level, when the idea was to make any character a capable Force user, or even let a Jedi character not have levels in that class.

Okay, fair enough... but I find such a setup is a little prohibitive for low level nonhuman jedi, and I'm sure there's some better way to limit the number of times a person can take Force Training other than just having it take up feats.

EDIT: I seem to be coming down against Saga edition, but I really don't dislike it. I think it's really a rather good system, and is clear to me it's the best on the market right now... I just would've done more to encourage a more ranged oriented game, and the more I think about it, Jedi not getting Force Training makes more and more sense. The system feels balanced, streamlined, but still robust. From my brief perusal of Revised, I wasn't nearly as impressed, though I never saw those rules in action.

A.Sondergaard
2008-02-01, 07:06 PM
4) Many of the pictures are repeated multiple times in the same book, which is unforgiveable.This needed to be said if you're really into whether or not a product is aesthetically pleasing. I probably would've had a much bigger issue with the reprinted art, if I didn't like D. Alexander Gregory so much.