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Voyager_I
2008-02-01, 04:34 AM
The Practical Monk’s Manuscript

Out of all classes Core and beyond, the sage Monk is perhaps the most derided. “They can’t hit anything” cry some. “They don’t do any damage when they do” insist others. “All their Class Features suck!” is echoed by many voices. Listen to them not. Like all simpletons, they hate that which is beyond their comprehension. Having seen through the misunderstandings to the true power of the Monk class, and with the help of this text, you can show them the error of their thoughts and guide them along the path to enlightenment.


Ability Scores:
Monks are often criticized for being reliant on too many ability scores. In truth, this proves no fault in the Monk, but simply the backwardness of their detractor’s thinking. This “Multiple Ability Dependency” makes the Monk class especially friendly to new players. Every ability score is somehow critical to your success as a Monk, which means that there are no wrong decisions! No matter which abilities you favor, you can be sure that it will benefit you down the road. Strength increases your ability to carry equipment, Constitution makes you more durable, Dexterity makes it harder for things to hit you, Intelligence lets you maximize your many class skills, Wisdom fuels many of your class features, and Charisma makes you look better in those skimpy Monk outfits. Have you ever seen an ugly Kung-Fu chick? That’s right, and it’s because nothing makes a woman more beautiful than getting kicked in the face as a career. There’s no real priority to any of these stats, so feel free to spend your points wherever you want. However, to truly capture the cinematic feel of a Monk, it’s probably best to spread them around until you have at least a 16 in everything before raising one ability any higher.

Roleplaying:
Being Lawful, Monks lend a critical aspect of stability to an otherwise chaotic adventuring party. After all, there is nothing players like more than being constantly reminded by the Monk that their behavior is dishonorable. You should speak up loudly and insistently whenever your character would object to the situation, which includes unnecessary violence, disrespectful behavior such as looting the dead, and receiving payment for heroic deeds that really should have been done for the sake of honor and good faith. Most adventurers’ mothers can’t accompany them into the wilderness, so you should feel honor-bound to take on their duties. Just remember that your fellow Adventurers are grown-ups, so you should be nagging them to do their own laundry. Be firm about not washing their clothes more than once a month, no matter how badly the Barbarian starts to smell.

Combat:
Monks don’t really have a role in combat. If the designer gods had intended you to fight, they would have given you full BAB like every other martial class in the game. Your excellent saves, Improved Evasion, Wisdom bonus to AC, and eventual DR (because nothing can penetrate DR/Magic!), Poison Resistance, and Spell Resistance will make you a difficult target, even though you only have a d8 hit die. Combine these defenses with your pathetic damage output, and your opponents will realize that they have better things to do than waste spells and attacks on you. Sometimes foes don’t figure this out immediately, and your unique Flurry of Blows routine will serve to identify yourself to these confused enemies. Your enhanced movement speed will further help to keep you from danger.

You might be tempted by some of your abilities, such as Stunning Fist. However, against opponents with low enough saves to be affected by you, you’re probably better off using your stunning figure instead. Also, cleavage targets Will saves, which tend to be much lower.

All that being said, there are rare occasions where you will be called upon to enter the fray alongside your companions. Sometimes the Rogue will be desperately in need of a flanking partner, but the Cleric, the Warblade, and the Barbarian will all be busy doing something important. Since nothing you’re doing in the fight really matters, the duty will fall to you to stand on the other side of the monster from the Rogue so he can Sneak Attack it, safe in the knowledge that no monster will waste an action to attack you while any of your comrades are alive. Don’t let that +2 to hit fool you, though; your job is to help the Rogue do damage, not deal any yourself. Still, feel free to let off a few flurries to remind the enemy how useless you are.

Monks have a few other combat related abilities that deserve a passing reference; you are proficient in a small number of esoteric weapons which serve no purpose, and you have the Quivering Palm attack, which is really a moral dilemma in the form of a Catch-22. Since it’s only available once per week, you obviously have to save it for the really big monsters. However, anything worth using it on will pass the Fort save by default? The best choice is probably just to forget you have Quivering Palm to begin with.

As a final reminder, remember that disturbing the dead is extremely dishonorable! Your companions tend to forget this a lot, but the Fighter will be very grateful when you remind him while he’s attempting to shamefully loot the enchanted sword that almost took off his head. The same applies to taking someone’s private possessions, even if they are recently deceased.

Skills:
As a Monk, you have access to a wide variety of useful skills to take advantage of your broad scores. Since your Intelligence should be as high as everything else, you should have plenty of options. Many, like Tumble pertain to movement and evasion in some way, which will help keep you out of danger. In addition, a sufficiently stealthy Monk can accompany the Rogue on covert missions as a Flaking Buddy. This opens up a whole new level of gameplay, because there are no other means by which a hidden Rogue could get Sneak Attacks. Knowledge (Arcana) is very useful, as it is the only way for you to have any relation the field of magic, and Diplomacy will help you convince others of their misdeeds. Honestly though, like Ability Scores, you should have so many skill points that you can afford to spend them however you please and still be good at everything.

The True Purpose of the Monk:
So far, the longest tract of this text has been outlining what you can’t do, fight. Don’t take this as a concession of weakness, though; combat is only a small part of the larger game, and you won’t be missing out on much. You have a role that goes beyond providing an incessant moral compass for your allies, even when they forget to ask (which could be done by any Paladin). With rigid honor, loyalty, tenacity, and freedom from burgeoning equipment, a Monk makes the ultimate Porter. Your eat much less than a mule and can accompany your party through most any environment, meaning no matter where they may go, the Wizard will never have to carry his own Spellbook. You can’t wear armor and shouldn’t wield weapons, so with your strength as high as all your other attributes, you should have plenty of carrying space on you. In this light, many of your other abilities, which might seem random and incoherent at first glance, come into context.

As already mentioned, you are utterly without peer when it comes to avoiding and resisting things. After all, your entire purpose is defeated if the party has to carry you around. This means that, in the event your party is wiped out, you are practically guaranteed to be the last one standing. However, the true sting of death comes not from the loss of life, but from the loss of equipment. The problem is solved by you; you should be carrying most of the equipment to begin with, and you should have been stuffing your allies’ bodies into your Bags of Holding as they fell. Your defenses will keep you safe long enough to collect your last friend, and then the true power of the Monk comes into play: Your phenomenal movement speed will easily allow you to outpace your opponents, and every extra 10’ puts more distance between yourself and your enemies, and brings your party that much closer to resurrection. Empty Body, Abundant Step, and Slow Fall, which many detractors claim to be nonsensical, fit perfectly into this role by allowing you take shortcuts which cannot be followed. After all, very few enemies can fly, become incorporeal, or have access to 1st level arcane spells. Tongue of the Sun and Moon suffers much of the same criticism, but it provides unparalleled utility. No matter where your misadventures take place, you will be able to ask for directions to a healer and negotiate the resurrection of your party members. Don’t be afraid to use your stunning figure for a circumstance bonus to the Diplomacy check.

With their bodies and their possessions intact, your party will be right back on its feet! Well doe, Monk, well done. Now, remind them all that they have a lot of blood to wash out of their clothes, and it’s going to stain if they don’t take care of it right away.

Equipment:
As a Monk, you don’t really have any need for equipment. Anything you carry will simply reduce your ability to carry other things, and your ability scores are all so high already that you shouldn’t need to enhance any one over the rest. However, items that help you in your role as a Porter are absolutely essential. Purchase a Handy Haversack and as many Bags of Holding as you can carry. If the group has benevolently given you a big enough share that you have any money left after this, be gracious and give it back to them. After all, they could put it to better use and did most of the work to earn it.

Feats:
The Run feat is absolutely critical to the Monk’s strategy of escaping from a lost battle. Beyond that, the sky’s the limit. You don’t get many feats, so pick ones that suit your favorite skills, such as Stealthy, Negotiator, or Agile. Avoid combat-related feats, as you won’t be able to put them to good use.

Races:
The most important things to keep in mind with choosing a race are speed and carrying capacity. Small races lose both of these, so don’t play them unless you’re willing to settle for a slightly unoptimized build. Large races tend to draw attention, so avoid those as well. Medium races are therefore your best bet, and since you’re so good at everything, they’re all viable choices. The only exception is Dwarves, since they move slowly and any loss of speed is absolutely unacceptable. Beyond that, there’s no preference but your heart’s fancy.


This concludes our guide, disciple. Keep the tenets close to your heart, and you shall bring much honor to your name, temple, and oft maligned class. Your party may be reluctant to accept you, but after their first few attempts to kill you or run away fail, they should come to view you as inescapable. When you finally have a chance to shine after everyone else is dead, they will realize the true path that you follow, and regret that they could not share in your moment of glory.

Good saves to you all. Amen.

Zincorium
2008-02-01, 04:35 AM
I am forced to assume satire.

Swordguy
2008-02-01, 04:41 AM
I am forced to assume satire.

The best satire is when you can't tell.

I am, by the way, laughing out loud.

EDIT: And indeed, have Lol'd loud enough to wake up my wife. Congrats, OP. I owe this night on the couch to you.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-01, 04:58 AM
That actually sounds like a good idea. I've only just started playing D&D, and I may take a Monk if my Cleric and Beguiller characters don't work out (I've already got an LA 0 Gnoll Shapeshifter Druid as a reserve character, though).

Voyager_I
2008-02-01, 05:00 AM
Never in my life did I dream of having the honor [male chicken]blocking a complete stranger over the internet. Many thanks, kind sir.

Also, obvious props to Kurald Galain for the inspiration :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-01, 05:06 AM
Who was the "Never in my life did I dream of having the honor [male chicken]blocking a complete stranger over the internet. Many thanks, kind sir." line aimed at? (I did realise that it's a spoof, but I just felt like making an ironic comment).

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-01, 05:10 AM
Well, fairly mediocre satire imo. Kurald Galain's samurai is much better, I daresay.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3660260&postcount=1

Lesson to be learned: it is apparently much easier to max the monk than making fun of it!:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Chronicled
2008-02-01, 05:16 AM
Well, fairly mediocre satire imo. Kurald Galain's samurai is much better, I daresay.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3660260&postcount=1

Lesson to be learned: it is apparently much easier to max the monk than making fun of it!:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

While Kurald's samurai satire was exceedingly well done, by no means is Voyager's piece merely mediocre.

And it is much easier to mock the monk than make it useful in ways other than those which Voyager has detailed.

Voyager_I
2008-02-01, 05:45 AM
Who was the "Never in my life did I dream of having the honor [male chicken]blocking a complete stranger over the internet. Many thanks, kind sir." line aimed at? (I did realise that it's a spoof, but I just felt like making an ironic comment).

That was directed at Swordguy, who is hopefully comfortable on his couch right now. One has to wonder how he had time to tell he was getting the boot, though?

Adumbration
2008-02-01, 05:51 AM
Every party should have an NPC monk like that. Seriously, you would never have to worry about a TPK again.


:smalltongue:

AslanCross
2008-02-01, 07:01 AM
Thank you. I now have a reason to introduce a Monk NPC to my party. I'm sure the group will appreciate how the Monk is useful and yet does not step on anybody's toes.

KIDS
2008-02-01, 08:28 AM
On a honest note, it's not really as funny as Kurald Galain's Samurai - but it has plenty of humor and bright spots. Congratulations and thanks :)

13_CBS
2008-02-01, 08:33 AM
Really? I thought this satire was superior to Kurald's (not that Kurald's was bad by any means).

its_all_ogre
2008-02-01, 09:37 AM
you are however incorrect on one point.
goblins are small yet have a speed of 30 and so are kobolds.
goblins make good fleeing monks therefore and have +4 hide and move silently. you should also allow this monk porter to buy a ring of invisibility!:smallbiggrin:

PirateMonk
2008-02-01, 10:45 AM
Nice post, but I'm shocked that you failed to mention the many exciting job opportunities for monks in the field of explosives delivery.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-01, 10:52 AM
Hey, I'm famous :smallredface:

The funnest part about my samurai thread was the people who took it seriously and wrote a point-for-point rebuttal... :smallbiggrin:

Snadgeros
2008-02-01, 11:02 AM
WOO! MONK DEFENSE FORCE IS GO! Sir Giacomo, Form up on me!

Alright, let's clarify this a bit. I do not believe the monk is a balanced class when compared to casters, but then again, no class is. What I do believe is that although the monk lacks the BAB and damage output of other melee classes, his survivability balances this. Let's address it one point at a time though.

Abilities:
The monk has MAD, yes, but it's certainly not crippling. With a single feat, weapon finesse, the monk has eliminated his need for STR as a high stat and now only needs decent scores in DEX, WIS, and CON, no different than a wizard's need for DEX, INT, and CON. Sure, he won't be putting out as much damage, but that's not his job, that's the raging power attacking barbarian's.

Roleplaying:
The monk has one, and only one, roleplaying restriction: lawfulness. Interpret this how you want. You see it as always being honorable, I see it as believing in social heirarchies. Really, it's very vague and very flexible, no more restrictive than a bard's chaotic alignment.

Combat:
Here is where the monk gets ragged on. He fails to fit in any of the 4 party roles of tanker, flanker, blaster, or healer. His attacks are sub-par, but his defense is impenetrable. With high movement speed, ranks in tumble, and good saves across the board, he's an expert at moving around the battlefield. This opens up a lot of "Plan B" options for the monk. When the party is going into combat, give the monk a couple of healing potions to deliver when necessary. Did the party fighter just get surrounded by enemies? Monk can get over there and flank with him within the next turn. With his mobility, he won't have any trouble reaching them. His combat role isn't damage-dealing or taking blows, although he CAN do that to an extent. It's his job to do whatever's necessary as quickly as possible, while providing support for the melee classes. Really, the only thing that's too underpowered to use effectively is the flurry of blows, but that's "Plan C."

Skills:
Like most classes, most of these are superfluous. Unless you're going for diplo-cheese, just stick all those points into jump and tumble for maximum mobility on the battlefield.

True Purpose:
Like I said, Plan B healer/flanker and support for the melee classes.

Equipment:
A monk doesn't need much, and unless you're going past 12th level or so, he's a fantastic (albeit somewhat broken) candidate for Vow of Poverty. Seriously, he's untouchable with that. Otherwise, a cloak of resistance and some bracers of armor will help you stay alive, along with perhaps an amulet of mighty fists to increase damage.

Feats:
Like I said, weapon finesse and possibly VoP. After that, stuff like improved grapple could make you a decent caster-killer, provided your DM isn't throwing Batman wizards at you. (Don't call this a straw-DM theory. What kind of sadistic DM does stuff like that, unless he's trying to put munchkins in their place?)

Races:
Small races are viable, although unoptimal. The movement speed penalty hurts, but the AC and BAB bonuses are nice. I wouldn't do it though, just because of the unarmed damage reduction. Large races are just not worth it in general, although being polymorphed into one can be quite effective.

So, all in all, the monk is a viable class and can contribute well to the party if played correctly. Depending on the DM, ki strike can also be invaluable for bypassing DR, and will still be useful even after the party gets magical weapons. So yes, while certain features are underpowered, (flurry of blows and quivering palm) I feel that the monk is overall balanced with the rest of the non-caster classes.

NOTE: I said NON-CASTER classes. Please don't turn this into a monks vs. wizards thread!

Voyager_I
2008-02-01, 11:05 AM
The funnest part about my samurai thread was the people who took it seriously and wrote a point-for-point rebuttal... :smallbiggrin:

Does that count as irony?

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-01, 11:09 AM
WOO! MONK DEFENSE FORCE IS GO! Sir Giacomo, Form up on me!


Alas, in this ironic thread I would prefer not to join in your noble quest, o Snadgeros...but rest assured that any such thread yould be easily done on any class regardless of their alleged power(s). For instance, the druid...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Emperor Demonking
2008-02-01, 11:13 AM
This was funny, the other one was better though. The stunning figure jokes weren't very good as they had no basis in seriousness.

Chronicled
2008-02-01, 11:14 AM
Does that count as irony?
It counts as hilarity.


Alas, in this ironic thread I would prefer not to join in your noble quest, o Snadgeros...but rest assured that any such thread yould be easily done on any class regardless of their alleged power(s). For instance, the druid...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

In the case of the monk, it's funny because it's true!

Not so much in the case of the druid.

Voyager_I
2008-02-01, 11:21 AM
Yeah, this thread is most definitely not intended to spiral into another Monk debate, and I intentionally avoided the whole UMD Gonk issue in its entirety to avoid that (and also because Kurald Galain already parodied those arguments in his most esteemed Samurai thread). Especially given that, aside from the obviously satirical aspects, we're mostly saying the same things.

As for the "Any Class" idea, look up the little rant on Wizard brokenness on the Wizards forums. It's hilarious, and it still doesn't even cover half the ridiculous stuff that full casters can do. Imagine one of these threads, except talking about how comically overpowered a class is, and every word of it is true.

...especially when those words include (roughly) "and if you somehow manage to kill me after all that, you were actually fighting my Astral Projection, and none of those scrolls were really used. Now the real me teleports in."


[Edit]

The stunning figure jokes weren't very good as they had no basis in seriousness.

The basis would be that Stunning Fist will rarely actually work.

Dr Bwaa
2008-02-01, 11:25 AM
Well done; I enjoyed it.

Incidentally, for a truly unkillable Monk, take him to level 20, give him the feats The Mountain Does Not Move and The Mountain Does Not Fall (UF I think) to let him take temporary wisdom damage to negate real damage and status effects, and then give him 5 levels in Legend (Ultimate PrC's vo. 1) to give him that unkillable bit where even past -10 HP he can make fort saves to stay alive-- nonmagical immortality! Hooray!

Or, to enhance "combat" ability (that is to say "skill checks while you happen to be near combat"), Student of the Dragon offers the ability to jump around corners and gives an inherent +20 bonus to jump checks!

PirateMonk
2008-02-01, 11:36 AM
As for the "Any Class" idea, look up the little rant on Wizard brokenness on the Wizards forums. It's hilarious, and it still doesn't even cover half the ridiculous stuff that full casters can do. Imagine one of these threads, except talking about how comically overpowered a class is, and every word of it is true.

Would anyone happen to have a link on them?

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-01, 11:59 AM
... Imagine one of these threads, except talking about how comically overpowered a class is, and every word of it is true.

...especially when those words include (roughly) "and if you somehow manage to kill me after all that, you were actually fighting my Astral Projection, and none of those scrolls were really used. Now the real me teleports in."


Sounds great. And from that little bit it already illustrates that every word of it is NOT true. Unless said duel took place on a different plane, because you can only astrally project yourself away from the prime material plane where your body remains, helpless.

But please, post the link and I'll gladly give it a rules reality check.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

BRC
2008-02-01, 12:08 PM
you sir win an internets

warmachine
2008-02-01, 12:31 PM
Detecting high levels of sarcasm and vitriol.

Pity as it'd nice to have build techniques to bring a Monk up to par.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 12:32 PM
Voyager, you had me fooled until I started reading the roleplaying text. The ability scores text is an argument that someone can actually make and argue for, so I thought it was going to be a real monk guide. Hell, I thought it was going to be a witty and real guide to Monks :smallsmile: But hey, at least it was witty. One out of two isn't bad.

Voyager_I
2008-02-01, 05:03 PM
Link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10768110#post10768110) for Giacomo. I think there might be a rules goof in there (he Dimension Doors into the ground while Incorporeal), but beyond that it's all valid...and they'd already discussed Shrink Item. Remember, Astral Projection merely starts you somewhere else. Scrolls of Plane Shift and Greater Teleport can get you wherever you're going in a hurry, should be trivial by 17th level, and won't actually get expended because they're just projected copies.

As for the rest of you, this is only partially satire. At high levels, life gets cheaper, and equipment gets much more expensive. Haveing a handy dandy Kung-fu porter around to stuff your loot-laden corpses into a portable hole and get out of dodge would be save tone of grief, even if his only role in combat was being a potion-boy (but shouldn't they have their own already?) and letting the Rogue sneak attack. It's definitely preferable to, say, a mule, which will just get eaten when you all die. I think Monks usually smell a little better, too.

Solo
2008-02-01, 05:09 PM
Voyager, as much as I respect your attempt at humor, Sir Giacomo does it better with his monk guide.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-01, 05:20 PM
Voyager, as much as I respect your attempt at humor, Sir Giacomo does it better with his monk guide.Link plz? filler

Solo
2008-02-01, 05:34 PM
It's not so much a concrete list as it is a philosophy.

Indon
2008-02-01, 05:41 PM
You forgot the Dash feat, which increases base speed by 5.

Alternately, the Incarnum version (I remember the names of no Incarnum versions of feats), which increases base speed by 5 per essentia invested. If you took Incarnum Dodge, Incarnum Toughness, and Incarnum Dash, you could have three points of essentia to move between AC, HP, and speed.

Rutee
2008-02-01, 05:55 PM
It's not so much a concrete list as it is a philosophy.

Specifically, the same philosophy that works for the ultra-rich in the real world; Throw money at the problem until it goes away.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-01, 06:12 PM
Specifically, the same philosophy that works for the ultra-rich in the real world; Throw money at the problem until it goes away.

Without the Ultrarich get out clause of endless wealth. Everyone around you gets the same amount of cash and unless they start lighting cuban cigars by setting fire to their diamond encrusted yachts the godawful Gonk (so beautifully Onomatapic) will fall futher and further into the big gaping hole in its wallet.

PirateMonk
2008-02-01, 06:15 PM
How would a commoner that got a million gp a year from his rich wizard uncle do as a PC compared to other classes with normal WBL?

mostlyharmful
2008-02-01, 06:36 PM
How would a commoner that got a million gp a year from his rich wizard uncle do as a PC compared to other classes with normal WBL?

So long as cheese was allowed they'd kick ass. seriously. Expendable resources can cover for a lackluster class abilities list in the short term and a million a year is FREAKIN HUUUUUGE. If the Commoner gets hold of a reliably large UMD roll they're good. If they get hold of Polymorph they're golden at much lower level, see earlier threads involving Giacomo :smallamused: Plus, a million a year at level 20 is still vaguely sane, broken but within the same hemisphere as a reasonable PC, at earlier levels it's more than a bit loopy-cheese huge

SurlySeraph
2008-02-01, 06:59 PM
:smallsigh:

Monks aren't useless. Single-class monks are pretty much useless, yes, but there's a lot you can do about that.

Specifically, Monk 11/ Rogue 9.

You can combine Flurry of Blows with the Two-Weapon Fighting tree. Since you are not an idiot, you are using light weapons. That gives you 8 attacks per round, at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 (main hand) and +13/+10/+5 (off hand). A fighter has half that many attacks. Yes, the fighter's attacks are more accurate, but with that many attacks some of them are going to hit. Since you are not an idiot, you took the Ascetic Rogue feat, so each of your attacks does 2d10 damage.

But that's just the monk part. The rogue part is the entire reason why you got yourself so damn many attacks: Sneak Attack. If you get a flank set up, you have 8 attacks, each of which does 2d10+5d6 damage.

Now you need some magic items to cheese this out a bit more. The SRD describes gauntlets thusly: "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." This is my interpretation: if a strike with a gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack, it does damage equal to your unarmed strike damage. So 2d10. If you do accept it, however, you get two +1 Speed Gauntlets, and add the Deadly Precision weapon enhancement from Complete Adventurer. Now you have 10 attacks per round, each of which does 2d10+7d6 damage. You can add flaming or shocking and suchlike for extra d6s, though the cost isn't really worth it after that. Still, 10 attacks at 2d10+7d6 each is an average of 35 damage per attack, 350 average damage if all of your attacks hit.

"But," I can hear you protest, "there's no way all his attacks will hit!" Well, gee, the monk has the same BAB as the Cleric and the Rogue, and I don't hear anyone knocking CoDzilla (even without Divine Might) or Rogue sneak attack builds. But even so, there's something you can do about the accuracy. Get an item of Wraithstrike, the second level spell that lets you make all of your attacks in a round as touch attacks. Yes, doing this is cheese, but it's no cheesier than Leap Attack/ Shock Trooper builds. Oh, and speaking of Power Attack-based cheese: a level 20 fighter with 18 strength who power attacks for 14 with a greatsword will do an average of 35 damage per attack. But he gets 4 attacks, and they're only at +10/+5/+0/-5. Granted, I'm not accounting for magic weapons, the pwntastic effects of charging, etc. But even taking those into account, and remembering that the monk in this example needs someone to flank for him, the fighter is still behind.

But that's a highly specific build I created to prove a point (even though monks absolutely must have bonus damage on their attacks to be viable). Well, there's more that the monk can do. He's get tons of MAD? Start by taking Weapon Finesse so he doesn't need strength. If you want to use skills, take Carmendine Monk to use intelligence for everything that you used to use wisdom for. Unless you're making a Diplomancer or UMD monk - and both of those are so cheesy by default that you should skip on them - you don't need charisma. So that's down to Dexterity, Intelligence, and Constitution - quite reasonable.

Monks don't suck unless you let them suck. Just as there is no defendable reason to play a pureclass fighter past level 4, there is no defendable reason to play a pureclass monk past level 11. That's what multiclassing is for.

tyckspoon
2008-02-01, 07:04 PM
But that's just the monk part. The rogue part is the entire reason why you got yourself so damn many attacks: Sneak Attack. If you get a flank set up, you have 8 attacks, each of which does 2d10+5d6 damage.

Now you need some magic items to cheese this out a bit more. The SRD describes gauntlets thusly: "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." This is my interpretation: if a strike with a gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack, it does damage equal to your unarmed strike damage. So 2d10. If you do accept it, however, you get two +1 Speed Gauntlets, and add the Deadly Precision weapon enhancement from Complete Adventurer. Now you have 10 attacks per round, each of which does 2d10+7d6 damage. You can add flaming or shocking and suchlike for extra d6s, though the cost isn't really worth it after that. Still, 10 attacks at 2d10+7d6 each is an average of 35 damage per attack, 350 average damage if all of your attacks hit.

"But," I can hear you protest, "there's no way all his attacks will hit!"


Actually, we protest that Speed doesn't do that. It doesn't stack with haste or other similar effects, which includes itself.. although that only really knocks one attack off the routine and frees up +3 enhancements worth of cash to spend on other stuff.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 07:12 PM
A charger can do hundreds of damage easily. Most cheese that rogues can do, Power-attackers can do to. Wraith-striked Pounce-charge with shock-trooper and Leap attack = 4 attacks at 60 extra damage each...WITHOUT taking into account magic enhancements. Get the Valorous enchantment and your damage doubles.

Aerogoat
2008-02-01, 07:13 PM
Is it wrong if I'm suddenly, very seriously, considering playing some sort of specialist porter in my next game?


But even then, Factotum seems like a better option...

PirateMonk
2008-02-01, 07:15 PM
Where, exactly, are you finding a level 20 fighter with 18 Str? :smallconfused:

Voyager_I
2008-02-01, 07:19 PM
Admirable build :smallamused: It does what the Monk was really meant to do; skip the incoherent array of weird Asian-esque abilities and just focus on beating things up, with a little stealth thrown in. It certainly seems much more Kung-Fu than the ability to go Ethereal...with your mind.

I find comparing a highly specific and optimized build to a generic Fighter (which is also a weak class when unoptimized) who apparently has no strength enhancements at Level 20 a bit objectionable, though.

SurlySeraph
2008-02-01, 07:49 PM
Thanks for catching me on the Speed weapons. 9 attacks, then.

Yes, a 20th-level fighter is very unlikely to have only 18 strength. 24 or 25 is more likely, plus a belt or gauntlets to bring it up 28 or 30. But do keep in mind that I wasn't factoring strength or dexterity into the monk's attacks, either. I realize that there are many fighter builds that could charge and easily reduce this monk to red mist. But my point is that the monk is not pathetic if you put even a little bit of effort into optimizing it.

@V:
:smallfurious:
Damn, something else I missed!
Okay, use Scorpion Kamas (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070223a) instead of gauntlets. They're stupidly expensive, but they'll work.

horseboy
2008-02-01, 08:00 PM
Yeah, Monk and rogue work well together. Oh, but you can't flurry with a gauntlet according to the FAQ.

TomTheRat
2008-02-01, 11:00 PM
I'm really starting to think that we, as a community, need to band together and just stop talking about monks. I pretty much only lurk here, but over the last 6 months we don't go a week without another post from someone trying to reedeem the class.

I mean no disrespect to Voyager_I's brilliant post, I'm just hoping that the right people are here, listening, and that we can all just ignore people who post serious attempts to argue for the worthfulness of monks (with the exception of flavor).

Kurald Galain
2008-02-02, 03:25 AM
:smallsigh:

Monks aren't useless. Single-class monks are pretty much useless, yes, but there's a lot you can do about that.

Specifically, Monk 11/ Rogue 9.

You know what the easiest way is to improve that build?

Replace those monk levels by rogue levels. Or, for that matter, barbarian, or warlock.

Hardly surprising, as that holds true for the majority of the so-called good monk builds posted on this forum. As usual, the best "monk build" is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk.

Frosty
2008-02-02, 03:36 AM
You know what the easiest way is to improve that build?

Replace Monk levels with Unarmed Swordsage levels?

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-02, 04:58 AM
Specifically, the same philosophy that works for the ultra-rich in the real world; Throw money at the problem until it goes away.

It is hard to accept the wbl as balancing factor, I know. Maybe because it shows how easy it is to get powerful magic for the non-casting classes.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-02, 08:57 AM
Link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10768110#post10768110) for Giacomo. I think there might be a rules goof in there (he Dimension Doors into the ground while Incorporeal), but beyond that it's all valid...and they'd already discussed Shrink Item. Remember, Astral Projection merely starts you somewhere else. Scrolls of Plane Shift and Greater Teleport can get you wherever you're going in a hurry, should be trivial by 17th level, and won't actually get expended because they're just projected copies.


"..there might be a rules goof in there" is one of the best understatements that I have read so far on the boards.

Follow the link guys, and you'll see another example why there are so many wrong notions of caster (in particular wizard) uberness. Stuff not being backed up by the rules explains a lot. (btw Lycanthromancer once used that tactical setup also on WoTC boards to duel vs a level 20 fighter to show how great wizards are, making many of the same rules mistakes and also going vs a fighter who charged him with a dagger - likely he was made fun of but never realised it, which actually was quite funny).

For the record
- no, it is not possible to use astral projection from a different plane than the material plane. The spell mentions only the material plane. So no casting from a bag of holding, at that. It may be that the spell should be adjusted for outsiders using it from their plane, but I would never as a DM allow a houserule to where one player is constantly out of danger while adventuring.
- no, you cannot gate in anything (a calling effect) while in time stop (you cannot affect anyone but yourself - and your familiar. So even summoning SPELLS (not the "summoning allies" option suggested in the time stop spell description, simply the spells) are even highly doubtful)
- no, you cannot limited wish in retrospect for a contingency dimension door when it suits you. Nor can you limited wish for two spells at once. The caster can contingency a dimension door, but that will not go off in an area he previously has made "safe" with dimensional locks. What the limited wish does, though, is cost you X.P.
- no, you will not be safe behind a wall of stone from all the effects that the poster listed, since a simple blink effect cicumvents it (and there are tons of other methods to circumvent the barriers, too). If the wall of stone is meant to be a barrier to AMF, the opponent simply blinks through the wall (with a ring of blinking, say, that is already active, after having ducked underneath the prismatic sphere) and then activates the AMF (the wizard would then need tumble to get out, but he can't since there is a wall of stone). If you want to go nuts, at those levels get a special purpose intelligent item that will do the dimdooring for you while you do your attack/whatever. Ah, and btw, you'll need a stone floor for a wall of stone to work at all, so it is highly situation-specific.*
- no, similarly the prismatic sphere will not help. Apart from dimdooring/etherally moving beneath the sphere, the poster himself mentions the rod of cancellation (a bargain for a lvl 20 character at only 11,000 gold AND IT WILL NOT BE USELESS AFTER DRAINING SPELLS). Ah, and btw the caster using said sphere shuts down himself because his/her spells will no longer go through from the inside. Casting also dimensional lock helps, but shuts down the caster escape as well - he'll no longer be able to escape, due to...
- ...no incorporality due to no shapechange, since that is widely recognised as broken/banned by WoTC:smallbiggrin: . Or everyone gets it, so no safe escape route (the opponents will simply use the same to get at the caster incorporally from below).
- no, a familiar sent out with an AMF on it to impair an enemy caster of level 20 will not survive for long, and certainly not against a non-caster
- no, the 20th level opponent will not stand idly by and have to do saves vs targeted or rayed attacks like Disjunctions, irresistible dances etc. A simple concealment spell or effect will shut that down completely (apart from the big question how the caster will attack with those targeted spells from within his prismatic spheres and walls since he has neither line of sight, nor line of effect. The ring gates trick is nice, but since he cannot gate in or summon creatures outside to do his stuff in time stop, he can likewise not fix items onto them - which would btw count as influencing them, anyhow. And since the critters at best with a benevolent DM are there from monster summoning IX, they will hardly last long enough in combat for the ring gates to matter vs concealed enemies)
- no, simulacrums will not help. First of all, it starts to add up in terms of X.P. (in particular when the caster spams -non-RAW-gates and limited wishes). So the caster is likely already no longer lvl 20, but 19.
Then, the simulacrums are easily seen through (and at their puny 10th levels will not contribute anything to a fight of such proportions)
- no, likewise the clone will not help, at least not in this case. Since it is put into a bag of holding for storage, it gets extremely dangerous for said caster: if he is slain, he awakes in the bag and thus is completely at the mercy of whoever finds the bag and notices someone is inside (and can only hope he gets out within 10 minutes or he suffocates). Even if he could escape with some spell able to escape an extradimensional space (a teleport is not enough), he would have lost his equipment that he wore on his original body, making somehow a "I come back with a vengeance" quite unlikely, even with another time stop, because retrieving all your items from your dead body No.1 can take some time. A sharp object piercing it from the outside will mean all contents are lost, original body and clone(s). There are many ways to keep a clone safe, but putting it into a bag of holding is not one of them. (remember, uncorporaility is out, and the only way to keep it from sharp objects is by being etheral BEFORE casting the dimensional locks- but even then a blinking character can sunder the bag). And to add insult to injury, a clone can be made for all characters, even the non-casting ones, with a simple 15th+ level npc casting.

Added to all of the rules misperceptions of the poster he sidesteps the big question how he would manage to safely get first in the initiative vs a level 20opponent to even get up his time stop combos. Moment of prescience does not add its bonus to initiative rolls, and foresight only prevents you from being surprised (given that a wizard has neither spot nor listen as class skill, this is a vital spell indeed - but even a wizard with a greater metamagic extend rod will use most of his 9th level spells to keep them up all day).

That's about it.

- Giacomo

*EDIT: just noticed that IF the dimensional lock is up, you cannot blink inside. However, likewise, the caster cannot escape from within his stone prison. If he was etheral before, he could get out from the floor, but so could an enemy with blink active before combat or before the locks were up.
Tearing down the walls takes up two rounds (1st: cancelling the sphere; 2nd: tearing down the stone wall with xy effect). That could even done by a time stop effect cast in turn by the opponent.

Indon
2008-02-02, 09:43 AM
Actually, we protest that Speed doesn't do that. It doesn't stack with haste or other similar effects, which includes itself.. although that only really knocks one attack off the routine and frees up +3 enhancements worth of cash to spend on other stuff.

I wonder if perhaps Flaming/Shock/Frost wouldn't be better than Speed on both weapons.


You know what the easiest way is to improve that build?

Play a Wizard instead, and reflavor appropriately. That way, you don't get your party killed for playing an inferior class, right?

PirateMonk
2008-02-02, 10:47 AM
the rod of cancellation (a bargain for a lvl 20 character at only 11,000 gold AND IT WILL NOT BE USELESS AFTER DRAINING SPELLS)

Actually, there's nothing in the SRD description of the Rod of Cancellation that suggests it can be used against spells at all. Unless you count the component spell, but by that logic you could wish for anything using a Tome/Manual.


You know what the easiest way is to improve that build?

Replace those monk levels by rogue levels. Or, for that matter, barbarian, or warlock.

Hardly surprising, as that holds true for the majority of the so-called good monk builds posted on this forum. As usual, the best "monk build" is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk.


The way to optimize a build of almost any class is to take as few levels in that class as possible. But yes, at least optimized wizards are actually being wizards.

Emperor Demonking
2008-02-02, 11:04 AM
But what is being a wizard?

PirateMonk
2008-02-02, 11:21 AM
Preparing and casting spells from the wizard spell list in preference to doing most other things.

Greenfaun
2008-02-02, 11:29 AM
First, to the OP: awesome. I lol'ed.


I'm really starting to think that we, as a community, need to band together and just stop talking about monks.

It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the SAME conversation every time. But it is. So yeah, I vote "Quit it!" too.

On the bright side, it should only be a year or a bit more until we have the 4e monk to kick around. :)

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-02, 11:32 AM
Actually, there's nothing in the SRD description of the Rod of Cancellation that suggests it can be used against spells at all. Unless you count the component spell, but by that logic you could wish for anything using a Tome/Manual.


Read the respective spell descriptions (e.g. wall of force, prismatic wall).

- Giacomo

PirateMonk
2008-02-02, 11:34 AM
Okay, thanks.

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-02, 11:36 AM
I'm really starting to think that we, as a community, need to band together and just stop talking about monks. I pretty much only lurk here, but over the last 6 months we don't go a week without another post from someone trying to reedeem the class.


That's actually easily fixed. The funny thing is that monk is not even my favourite class to play. But when wrong stuff gets posted over and over again, and is only an expression of an even wider misperception of the core rules (read: alleged caster supremacy supported by the attempts to ridicule the monk class which is full of anti-caster stuff), it needs correcting.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-02-02, 12:16 PM
I'm really starting to think that we, as a community, need to band together and just stop talking about monks. I pretty much only lurk here, but over the last 6 months we don't go a week without another post from someone trying to reedeem the class.

I mean no disrespect to Voyager_I's brilliant post, I'm just hoping that the right people are here, listening, and that we can all just ignore people who post serious attempts to argue for the worthfulness of monks (with the exception of flavor).

That's actually easily fixed. The funny thing is that the wizard is not even my favorite class to play. But when wrong stuff gets posted over and over again, and is only an expression of an even wider misconception of the core rules (read: alleged class balance supported by the attempts to prove that melee classes can compete with casters), it needs correcting.

- Solo

bosssmiley
2008-02-02, 12:28 PM
Monks don't suck unless you let them suck. Just as there is no defendable reason to play a pureclass fighter past level 4, there is no defendable reason to play a pureclass monk past level 11. That's what multiclassing is for.

So, let's just look at that again a second: you're saying the way to make monk characters not suck mechanically is to multiclass out of monk? OK... :smallconfused:

@OP: Nice one. The scales have fallen from mine eyes and I see the true purpose of monks in D&D now: couriers. :smallbiggrin:

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-02, 12:45 PM
@OP: Nice one. The scales have fallen from mine eyes and I see the true purpose of monks in D&D now: couriers. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, not a bad idea...they would make great couriers! Not even stopped by dead magic areas....:smallbiggrin:
And thanks to diplomacy, they could even make great courtiers...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

@Solo: well written! A worthy adversary in the eternal caster/non-caster balance debate...

Voyager_I
2008-02-02, 09:14 PM
I think you're misunderstanding the Astral Projection trick. You cast it from the Material Plane, projecting yourself to the Astral Plane. From there, you are free to go wherever you want, including back to the Material Plane. Your equipment is duplicated, so any consumables you use will still be in you Handy Haversack when the spell ends. This includes the scroll of Plane Shift you scribed specifically for this, since being a Wizard makes you much too cool to walk anywhere. Six seconds after your arrival on the Astral Plane, you and all your companions shift back to the Material Plane, probably a few hundred miles off target. Because of the aforementioned "Too Cool to Walk" clause, you then pull out your scroll of Greater Teleport to get yourself wherever you're going. Assuming you fight something big there (probably a full caster) and it kills you all, you're wondrously transferred back to your bodies, unharmed and with both scrolls ready for next time. Your party will love you for this trick, because they all get to benefit from it. The SRD doesn't address what happens if you decide to sell your projected gear instead, but that's obviously much too cheesy to even bear discussing.

But wait, I can hear you asking "Voyager, how does your Porter-Monk fit into this? If they don't really die, doesn't he become useless?" Nonsense, good playgrounders. You see, the original bodies are left behind in suspended animation, totally helpless against the least of opponents. The Monk wouldn't really have anything to do if he came along with the projected crew, since there aren't any corpses to tend after. Instead, you leave him behind with the bodies, so he can keep an eye on them and get in some good meditation. He can even keep them in his Bag of Holding, since they don't need to breathe. If any villainous Kobolds come along, the Monk dutifully runs to safety, thereby saving the party without so much as disturbing them from the Epic Battle they're no doubt in the middle of. Well done once again, Disciple.


Also, Giacomo, that tract comes from a Wizards v Psionics debate, with the Psionicist touting a combo that was born on the Plane of Provolone. Hence, all cheese was in. You also have no right to call "cheese", since you were touting Polymorph until you were told you couldn't, and continue to advocate Leadership and Diplomacy in (almost) the worst ways. I understand that you view everything as balanced, and therefore consider these tactics to be completely reasonable, but just understand that (almost) nobody else will take these claims seriously.

I'm not going to get into a point-by-point debate over the legality of a cross-post in this thread, both because this isn't the place for it and it was already done in the several pages of the original thread following it.

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-03, 03:57 AM
I think you're misunderstanding the Astral Projection trick. You cast it from the Material Plane, projecting yourself to the Astral Plane. From there, you are free to go wherever you want, including back to the Material Plane.

The misunderstanding seems to be on your side, Vijaa One (startrekspeak, couldn't resist :smallwink: )

Here's the spell description, fresh from the SRD, bold emphasis mine, the two key words are underlined:

Astral Projection
Necromancy
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Travel 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 30 minutes
Range: Touch
Targets: You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.
You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
Material Component: A jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp, plus a silver bar worth 5 gp for each person to be affected.

So, once again: no casting from bag of holding, or handy haversacks, or non-dimensional/extra-dimensional spaces. And no casting from prime material plane, returning in astral form.


But wait, I can hear you asking "Voyager, how does your Porter-Monk fit into this? If they don't really die, doesn't he become useless?" ...

This issue was never raised by me. I only commented on your "caster uber" post, as you well know.


Also, Giacomo, that tract comes from a Wizards v Psionics debate, with the Psionicist touting a combo that was born on the Plane of Provolone. Hence, all cheese was in. You also have no right to call "cheese", since you were touting Polymorph until you were told you couldn't, and continue to advocate Leadership and Diplomacy in (almost) the worst ways. I understand that you view everything as balanced, and therefore consider these tactics to be completely reasonable, but just understand that (almost) nobody else will take these claims seriously.

Now that is extremely bad style for discussion. You mix completely different subjects and try to even convey the impression as if I supported a psionics class cheese. I do not even know the psionic rules at all, so how could I comment on those? Abd the stuff that the wizard supporter used was not cheese (excepting possibly shapechange, but as soon as it's available for all, the cheese ends), it was illegal.
The only thing that happened was that you, in this thread, to prove (which is impossible btw, but you tried anyhow) that your mock monk attempt was justified, you gave the link to show how wizard casters are uber. This I completely disproved.

Similarly, I have not "been told" I could no longer use polymorph as a balancing factor. The only thing that happened was that Sstupitallkid pointed out to me (at long last) an official WoTC site recommending to ban it in official WoTC campaigns. Which I now take into account when advocating builds and discussing on these boards (and believe me, there are many posters here still completely happy with using polymorph in their campaigns).
Leadership and diplomacy I still strongly advocate as possibilities in any character build, simply because I feel that those saying they are full of cheese are completely misunderstanding how these abilities/game effects work. This is similar to the polymorph rules, which likewise are completely overinterpreted in their impact in the high fantasy campaigns full of magic assumed by the core rules. In fact, my view remains that removing polymorph from the game creates imbalances elsewhere which you have to address.


I'm not going to get into a point-by-point debate over the legality of a cross-post in this thread, both because this isn't the place for it and it was already done in the several pages of the original thread following it.

Ah, I see. You managed to bring up only one objection to my disproving of your strange link (which got again shot down now), and now you back out. Which would be fine by me- but it would have been great, if you admitted: "hey, the monk may suck in my view, but I have been wrong on this wizard uberness thing."
But it will be obvious to board viewers, nonetheless.

- Giacomo

Talic
2008-02-03, 04:57 AM
In Ultimate prestige classes, there's a ranger PrC called a "Vigilant" (originally in Scarred Lands, Relics & Rituals), that can eventually run forever without tiring. Pick a race that needs no sleep, and bam, the monk was just outdone as a courier.

Though he still has the save your bacon function. Other classes find it hard to keep up with that movement.

If I might suggest, for the monk, Wild Talent, and Speed of Thought, as two feats?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-03, 10:26 AM
Here's the spell description, fresh from the SRD, bold emphasis mine, the key words are underlined:

Astral Projection
Necromancy
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Travel 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 30 minutes
Range: Touch
Targets: You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.
You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
Material Component: A jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp, plus a silver bar worth 5 gp for each person to be affected.

You can go to any plane the astral plane touches, that includes the material plane. Isn't core fun?

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-03, 10:32 AM
Here's the spell description, fresh from the SRD, bold emphasis mine, the key words are underlined:
(...)
You can go to any plane the astral plane touches, that includes the material plane. Isn't core fun?

Hmmm- from that sentence you highlighted alone, it may be difficult to tell what is meant by "any other plane" (and not "any plane" that you took as essence of what is written). But the first sentence of the spell description strongly points to the direction that you leave the material plane with you astral body, and there is only mention of your physical body left behind on the material plane.

Since going to lengths to interpret it otherwise implies that the spell gets broken quickly, why then go to such lengths at all?

- Giacomo

Worira
2008-02-03, 11:13 AM
Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will.

Other clearly refers to any plane other than the Astral Plane. There is no reason whatever to assume this doesn't include the Prime Material.

Theli
2008-02-03, 11:21 AM
Oh, poor poor SG. That's how wizards WORK. You look at their spells, then find the power inherent in them that the designers likely never even considered or intended. You then abuse the hell out of it.

That's not to say that people who do this are WRONG. The spells are either just badly worded or worded in a such a way that you really can't interpret their use any differently. So it really does take a careful, restrictive, AND houserule making DM to properly rein in much of the power.

However, most questions of balance don't assume this. And it often isn't fair to make that objection. (See fallacy, 'Oberoni'.)

For example, in the case of astral projection...NO WAY would I personally allow its use to reach back onto the material plane. There's just no way that was the intention behind the spell.

However, you just can't argue that such a thing is banned based on the wording...

Raider
2008-02-03, 11:28 AM
That was an extremely satisfying lol

Solo
2008-02-03, 11:40 AM
@Solo: well written! A worthy adversary in the eternal caster/non-caster balance debate...

You know, this reminds me of a point I wanted to bring up before the previous thread got locked.

Caster without items > noncaster without items due to their spells, correct?

According to you, Caster = noncaster with items, correct?

Consider: If the noncaster gets enough of a power boost to become balanced with the caster through use of magic items (well, as you say) what happens to a caster when you give him magic items?

Voyager_I
2008-02-03, 12:50 PM
If we have to go through another "Everyone vs Giacomo" row, can we really please not do it here? If this thread ever does get locked, I'd at least like it to be for something worthwhile.

Solo
2008-02-03, 12:57 PM
Well, since you said the magic word, I'll avoid the subject.

Sir Giacomo
2008-02-03, 01:00 PM
You know, this reminds me of a point I wanted to bring up before the previous thread got locked.

Caster without items > noncaster without items due to their spells, correct?

According to you, Caster = noncaster with items, correct?

Consider: If the noncaster gets enough of a power boost to become balanced with the caster through use of magic items (well, as you say) what happens to a caster when you give him magic items?

Hmm. Interesting point. Enough to derail this thread. Care to start a new one on this?

But maybe a short answer suffices.
With no magic items:
Caster > non-caster. Reason: at high levels there are some magical attacks and protections which only can get countered by magic (for instance, creatures with DR 10/magic). In fact, some magic assumes the other side also uses magic to some extent (e.g. DC and saving throws).
With magic items (intended as a balancing factor, as per DMG):
Caster = non-caster. Reason: the non-caster gains disproportionately by having access to magic, while a caster merely gets more of the same (the marginal utility for getting magic items is lower for casters than for non-casters).
Example: entire schools/attacks of magic are often negated by a single spell, which is available to all via magic items (necromancy? Death ward. Divination/enchantment? Mind blank. Evocation attacks/most other attacks? Wall of Force. All magic attacks/defenses? Antimagic field).

- Giacomo

PS: @Theli - you do not need to pity me :smallsmile: You may assume that this is how wizards (or rather, some wizard players?) work. I have nothing against great spell combos and unusual, innovative uses of the spell. But for that, the side of the wizard trying to bend the rules to his favour has to do the 100% RAW proving part, not me (or any DM). And in the astral projection example, the wording is quite clear to me: you leave behind the body on the material plane and then go to another.

Theli
2008-02-03, 01:06 PM
"But for that, the side of the wizard trying to bend the rules to his favour has to do the 100% RAW proving part, not me (or any DM)."

It's true that most people around here don't understand the concept of "if the spell doesn't explicitly mention something in its spell description, then it probably doesn't do it." However, some spells are just so horribly presented that you sometimes can't reasonably restrict them through that guideline alone. Strict and restrictive use of RAW just isn't enough.


As to the OP's objections...you mean this thread's purpose ISN'T about trying to poke fun at SG and other forum members who argue for the monk? Could've fooled me.

Voyager_I
2008-02-03, 01:24 PM
As to the OP's objections...you mean this thread's purpose ISN'T about trying to poke fun at SG and other forum members who argue for the monk? Could've fooled me.

I'd like to see a straight Monk build that stands to help the party as much as this one...

...also, I very, very carefully avoided directing this at any one person or their arguments, because doing that would make me a bad little boy, and bad little boys don't get to play in the playground.

Solo
2008-02-03, 01:26 PM
So what the heck am I doing here?

Kurald Galain
2008-02-03, 03:07 PM
What this forum needs is a separate board for monk-related threads.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-03, 04:25 PM
It's true that most people around here don't understand the concept of "if the spell doesn't explicitly mention something in its spell description, then it probably doesn't do it." However, some spells are just so horribly presented that you sometimes can't reasonably restrict them through that guideline alone. Strict and restrictive use of RAW just isn't enough.

The spell existed in 2nd edition also. Back then you were not allowed to project yourself back to the prime (instead you could travel anywhere on the Prime).
That restriction was removed when the spell was introduced to 3E.

The presentation is not lacking at all, the spell is just stupidly broken.

Tola
2008-02-04, 02:18 AM
Threads like this seriously depress me. Horribly. Despite the 'funny' tone.

A person likes to play a monk or fighter-type character, wants advice here or elsewhere....and they will be laughed at, insulted, and basically told 'You suck' in as many words if not many many more.

Bleh. It just makes me want to SCREAM and reach through the screen and choke the people who say such things.

What about people who LIKE such characters?

Voyager_I
2008-02-04, 02:32 AM
Not at all. As far as I'm aware, everyone here would happily help someone who had their heart set on playing a Monk of Fighter (the latter especially has a lot of room to grow). However, part of helping them is making sure they're aware of the suboptimal choice they're making, so they can make an informed decision. Most people aren't concerned with "Ultimate Power", but almost everybody wants to be able to contribute to some extent. It's only polite to let them know that they could reach that base level of competence much more easily by taking a different class. That doesn't mean they're going to be cajoled into taking Warblade instead of Fighter; if they've decided that, for whatever reason, Fighter and only Fighter is the class for them, we'll respect that and help them to the best of our abilities.

However, when people start to come out and deny the very existence of class imbalance, that's when these things happen. This thread isn't about ridiculing people who choose flavor over power, and is mostly just some lighthearted fun. However, the fact remains that the classes aren't balanced, and Monks came out pretty close to the bottom of the heap. That doesn't mean you shouldn't play one, but it is a fact that deserves to be acknowledged. Most importantly, this thread is nothing to get testy about.

Zincorium
2008-02-04, 02:35 AM
Threads like this seriously depress me. Horribly. Despite the 'funny' tone.

A person likes to play a monk or fighter-type character, wants advice here or elsewhere....and they will be laughed at, insulted, and basically told 'You suck' in as many words if not many many more.

Bleh. It just makes me want to SCREAM and reach through the screen and choke the people who say such things.

What about people who LIKE such characters?

Assuming that since a certain character choice is regarded as weak by some people that those same people also dislike people who play those characters is not only extremely fuzzy logic, it's false. I personally play all sorts of characters, including monks and fighters.

However, the fact that I like them does not make them mechanically any better, any more than having a fondness for VW bugs makes them faster than a Ferrari.

Also, here's the rub: Do you like playing the type of characters that usually are represented by fighters and rogues? If so, warblades or swordsages are a desirable upgrade. Trust me, they're more fun.

If you're choosing them because you think they have powerful class features, there are good arguments that they don't, and maybe YOU need to listen to them and have an open mind rather than just flying off the handle at a perceived slight to your person.

Talic
2008-02-04, 03:31 AM
Other clearly refers to any plane other than the Astral Plane. There is no reason whatever to assume this doesn't include the Prime Material.

Wrong, slightly.

"Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will."

The word "other planes" is used twice here, both referencing the same thing.

The second use of "other planes" should, by rules of english, be interpreted as, "any plane that the astral plane touches upon."

Note that it does not say that the astral plane connects to ALL other planes.

EXAMPLE:
"Since I've travelled to other cities, I can tell you about dining options in any of these other cities."

Now this certainly doesn't mean that I've visited every city, or that I can tell you about dining options in a city I've not been to.

Theli
2008-02-04, 09:58 AM
That's true enough from a grammatical point of view. However, there is no indication given that the astral plane does not touch the material plane. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any reason to think that this isn't the case. (Although, yes, I cannot find any explicit declaration that it does.)

mostlyharmful
2008-02-04, 02:08 PM
That's true enough from a grammatical point of view. However, there is no indication given that the astral plane does not touch the material plane. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any reason to think that this isn't the case. (Although, yes, I cannot find any explicit declaration that it does.)

The astral is a transitory plane, all teleport effects go through it. It touches on every plane to some degree. The first sentence on the plane in the DMG is that it's the space between planes. Ok that isn't an exact specification that the astral touches all planes but you'd need a heck of a work around to justify that although you can teleport and DD on the material it doesn't touch the plane such effects are stated to pass through.

Frosty
2008-02-04, 02:38 PM
Common sense says that DMs will rule you can't project yourself back to the Material Plane. Otherwise rocks fall on your body and you die.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-04, 02:45 PM
Common sense says that DMs will rule you can't project yourself back to the Material Plane. Otherwise rocks fall on your body and you die.

Yes. Enormously yes, but just add that as a houserule line to the spell. Incidently this one's still broken even if you can't use it to go to the material plane and you can't use the "infinate scrolls" trick, there's loads of challenges available on all the other planes that can be taken on pretty much completely safely. Do that for a few days, level up to epic and then go kick the crap out of any sanely built BBEG is a sure fire way to a sucky campaign. I'd rank this spell up there with shapechange and Gate for banning.

Frosty
2008-02-04, 03:04 PM
Just make it so you gain exp at a snail's pace while Astral-projecting, unless you have a artifact of uber-rareness, which only one deity can grant, known as the Great Dee Emm.

horseboy
2008-02-04, 03:05 PM
Common sense says that DMs will rule you can't project yourself back to the Material Plane. Otherwise rocks fall on your body and you die.
1) Common sense is the least common of all senses.
2) While that may or may not be RAI, which is debatable given the mentioned changes to the spell from prior editions, that's still a house ruling.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-04, 03:12 PM
Just make it so you gain exp at a snail's pace while Astral-projecting, unless you have a artifact of uber-rareness, which only one deity can grant, known as the Great Dee Emm.

that's good but it doesn't help the big hole it rips through any plot not on the material or adress the huge piles of swag they'll accumulate pretty fast.:smallfrown: This i think is a case of the simplist solution being the best one.

Theli
2008-02-04, 03:58 PM
Actually, I think the simplest solution might be to just let them face the very real possibility of a player wipe.

No, don't just keep killing the astral projected selfs. After a few excursions where they're constantly bugging the real higher ups, those weakly godlike creatures just might want to put a proper smackdown on them. They're going to want to follow them BACK.


Come on, they're accessing other planes of reality in order to find challenges and ignore those waiting back home? This is where you show them that maybe, just maybe, they're a little out of their league right now and shouldn't go playing planar tourist before they're really ready.

horseboy
2008-02-04, 07:45 PM
Actually, I think the simplest solution might be to just let them face the very real possibility of a player wipe.

No, don't just keep killing the astral projected selfs. After a few excursions where they're constantly bugging the real higher ups, those weakly godlike creatures just might want to put a proper smackdown on them. They're going to want to follow them BACK.


Come on, they're accessing other planes of reality in order to find challenges and ignore those waiting back home? This is where you show them that maybe, just maybe, they're a little out of their league right now and shouldn't go playing planar tourist before they're really ready.
Problem is time is relative to the observer. You can spend a year on certain plains and a day passes in the prime material. It's not that uncommon a theme in modern story telling. (Though it usually involves two screw ups with a time booth that go forward in time, train, then come back to when they left and "rock out" at a concert.)

Worira
2008-02-04, 07:49 PM
Githyanki.

Theli
2008-02-04, 07:51 PM
Problem is time is relative to the observer. You can spend a year on certain plains and a day passes in the prime material. It's not that uncommon a theme in modern story telling. (Though it usually involves two screw ups with a time booth that go forward in time, train, then come back to when they left and "rock out" at a concert.)

Don't see how that's a problem... It's the creatures from the other planes doing the beatdown after all. Time shouldn't be an issue with them.

Voyager_I
2008-02-04, 08:01 PM
The Porter Monk solves both those problems (to a degree), since he can take the bodies away from angry bad guys, and he can get them resurrected if the Githyanki have their way.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-04, 08:04 PM
What this forum needs is a separate board for monk-related threads.

I agree. JUNK

dyslexicfaser
2008-02-04, 09:35 PM
This post has inspired me to create a Porter Monk!

The ultimate gentleman's butler. Give him a low-level aristocrat (via Leadership) who people assume is your actual character: a pampered noble who rides around on a white stallion with a filigreed rapier, but is rubbish in a fight and is mostly there to annoy your party members ("Ugh, do you know what goblin blood does to crushed velvet? Fighter, please go deal with them.") and get them into trouble, giving your monk a chance to shine!

What do you guys think? Would a monk/ninja be too horrifically sub-optimal (more so than either of these sub-optimal classes on their own)? The idea of the monja (see what I did there? Monk/ninja = Monja. Yes, genius, I know) appearing from the shadows to give his aristocrat a glass of juice, and then vanishing again tickles my funny bone.

horseboy
2008-02-04, 10:09 PM
What do you guys think? Would a monk/ninja be too horrifically sub-optimal (more so than either of these sub-optimal classes on their own)? The idea of the monja (see what I did there? Monk/ninja = Monja. Yes, genius, I know) appearing from the shadows to give his aristocrat a glass of juice, and then vanishing again tickles my funny bone.
*Flashes of Kato*
Who'd have thought it a good idea that Burt Ward beat Bruce Lee.

Inhuman Bot
2008-02-09, 08:44 PM
The Practical Monk’s Manuscript

Out of all classes Core and beyond, the sage Monk is perhaps the most derided. “They can’t hit anything” cry some. “They don’t do any damage when they do” insist others. “All their Class Features suck!” is echoed by many voices. Listen to them not. Like all simpletons, they hate that which is beyond their comprehension. Having seen through the misunderstandings to the true power of the Monk class, and with the help of this text, you can show them the error of their thoughts and guide them along the path to enlightenment.


Ability Scores:
Monks are often criticized for being reliant on too many ability scores. In truth, this proves no fault in the Monk, but simply the backwardness of their detractor’s thinking. This “Multiple Ability Dependency” makes the Monk class especially friendly to new players. Every ability score is somehow critical to your success as a Monk, which means that there are no wrong decisions! No matter which abilities you favor, you can be sure that it will benefit you down the road. Strength increases your ability to carry equipment, Constitution makes you more durable, Dexterity makes it harder for things to hit you, Intelligence lets you maximize your many class skills, Wisdom fuels many of your class features, and Charisma makes you look better in those skimpy Monk outfits. Have you ever seen an ugly Kung-Fu chick? That’s right, and it’s because nothing makes a woman more beautiful than getting kicked in the face as a career. There’s no real priority to any of these stats, so feel free to spend your points wherever you want. However, to truly capture the cinematic feel of a Monk, it’s probably best to spread them around until you have at least a 16 in everything before raising one ability any higher.

Roleplaying:
Being Lawful, Monks lend a critical aspect of stability to an otherwise chaotic adventuring party. After all, there is nothing players like more than being constantly reminded by the Monk that their behavior is dishonorable. You should speak up loudly and insistently whenever your character would object to the situation, which includes unnecessary violence, disrespectful behavior such as looting the dead, and receiving payment for heroic deeds that really should have been done for the sake of honor and good faith. Most adventurers’ mothers can’t accompany them into the wilderness, so you should feel honor-bound to take on their duties. Just remember that your fellow Adventurers are grown-ups, so you should be nagging them to do their own laundry. Be firm about not washing their clothes more than once a month, no matter how badly the Barbarian starts to smell.

Combat:
Monks don’t really have a role in combat. If the designer gods had intended you to fight, they would have given you full BAB like every other martial class in the game. Your excellent saves, Improved Evasion, Wisdom bonus to AC, and eventual DR (because nothing can penetrate DR/Magic!), Poison Resistance, and Spell Resistance will make you a difficult target, even though you only have a d8 hit die. Combine these defenses with your pathetic damage output, and your opponents will realize that they have better things to do than waste spells and attacks on you. Sometimes foes don’t figure this out immediately, and your unique Flurry of Blows routine will serve to identify yourself to these confused enemies. Your enhanced movement speed will further help to keep you from danger.

You might be tempted by some of your abilities, such as Stunning Fist. However, against opponents with low enough saves to be affected by you, you’re probably better off using your stunning figure instead. Also, cleavage targets Will saves, which tend to be much lower.

All that being said, there are rare occasions where you will be called upon to enter the fray alongside your companions. Sometimes the Rogue will be desperately in need of a flanking partner, but the Cleric, the Warblade, and the Barbarian will all be busy doing something important. Since nothing you’re doing in the fight really matters, the duty will fall to you to stand on the other side of the monster from the Rogue so he can Sneak Attack it, safe in the knowledge that no monster will waste an action to attack you while any of your comrades are alive. Don’t let that +2 to hit fool you, though; your job is to help the Rogue do damage, not deal any yourself. Still, feel free to let off a few flurries to remind the enemy how useless you are.

Monks have a few other combat related abilities that deserve a passing reference; you are proficient in a small number of esoteric weapons which serve no purpose, and you have the Quivering Palm attack, which is really a moral dilemma in the form of a Catch-22. Since it’s only available once per week, you obviously have to save it for the really big monsters. However, anything worth using it on will pass the Fort save by default? The best choice is probably just to forget you have Quivering Palm to begin with.

As a final reminder, remember that disturbing the dead is extremely dishonorable! Your companions tend to forget this a lot, but the Fighter will be very grateful when you remind him while he’s attempting to shamefully loot the enchanted sword that almost took off his head. The same applies to taking someone’s private possessions, even if they are recently deceased.

Skills:
As a Monk, you have access to a wide variety of useful skills to take advantage of your broad scores. Since your Intelligence should be as high as everything else, you should have plenty of options. Many, like Tumble pertain to movement and evasion in some way, which will help keep you out of danger. In addition, a sufficiently stealthy Monk can accompany the Rogue on covert missions as a Flaking Buddy. This opens up a whole new level of gameplay, because there are no other means by which a hidden Rogue could get Sneak Attacks. Knowledge (Arcana) is very useful, as it is the only way for you to have any relation the field of magic, and Diplomacy will help you convince others of their misdeeds. Honestly though, like Ability Scores, you should have so many skill points that you can afford to spend them however you please and still be good at everything.

The True Purpose of the Monk:
So far, the longest tract of this text has been outlining what you can’t do, fight. Don’t take this as a concession of weakness, though; combat is only a small part of the larger game, and you won’t be missing out on much. You have a role that goes beyond providing an incessant moral compass for your allies, even when they forget to ask (which could be done by any Paladin). With rigid honor, loyalty, tenacity, and freedom from burgeoning equipment, a Monk makes the ultimate Porter. Your eat much less than a mule and can accompany your party through most any environment, meaning no matter where they may go, the Wizard will never have to carry his own Spellbook. You can’t wear armor and shouldn’t wield weapons, so with your strength as high as all your other attributes, you should have plenty of carrying space on you. In this light, many of your other abilities, which might seem random and incoherent at first glance, come into context.

As already mentioned, you are utterly without peer when it comes to avoiding and resisting things. After all, your entire purpose is defeated if the party has to carry you around. This means that, in the event your party is wiped out, you are practically guaranteed to be the last one standing. However, the true sting of death comes not from the loss of life, but from the loss of equipment. The problem is solved by you; you should be carrying most of the equipment to begin with, and you should have been stuffing your allies’ bodies into your Bags of Holding as they fell. Your defenses will keep you safe long enough to collect your last friend, and then the true power of the Monk comes into play: Your phenomenal movement speed will easily allow you to outpace your opponents, and every extra 10’ puts more distance between yourself and your enemies, and brings your party that much closer to resurrection. Empty Body, Abundant Step, and Slow Fall, which many detractors claim to be nonsensical, fit perfectly into this role by allowing you take shortcuts which cannot be followed. After all, very few enemies can fly, become incorporeal, or have access to 1st level arcane spells. Tongue of the Sun and Moon suffers much of the same criticism, but it provides unparalleled utility. No matter where your misadventures take place, you will be able to ask for directions to a healer and negotiate the resurrection of your party members. Don’t be afraid to use your stunning figure for a circumstance bonus to the Diplomacy check.

With their bodies and their possessions intact, your party will be right back on its feet! Well doe, Monk, well done. Now, remind them all that they have a lot of blood to wash out of their clothes, and it’s going to stain if they don’t take care of it right away.

Equipment:
As a Monk, you don’t really have any need for equipment. Anything you carry will simply reduce your ability to carry other things, and your ability scores are all so high already that you shouldn’t need to enhance any one over the rest. However, items that help you in your role as a Porter are absolutely essential. Purchase a Handy Haversack and as many Bags of Holding as you can carry. If the group has benevolently given you a big enough share that you have any money left after this, be gracious and give it back to them. After all, they could put it to better use and did most of the work to earn it.

Feats:
The Run feat is absolutely critical to the Monk’s strategy of escaping from a lost battle. Beyond that, the sky’s the limit. You don’t get many feats, so pick ones that suit your favorite skills, such as Stealthy, Negotiator, or Agile. Avoid combat-related feats, as you won’t be able to put them to good use.

Races:
The most important things to keep in mind with choosing a race are speed and carrying capacity. Small races lose both of these, so don’t play them unless you’re willing to settle for a slightly unoptimized build. Large races tend to draw attention, so avoid those as well. Medium races are therefore your best bet, and since you’re so good at everything, they’re all viable choices. The only exception is Dwarves, since they move slowly and any loss of speed is absolutely unacceptable. Beyond that, there’s no preference but your heart’s fancy.


This concludes our guide, disciple. Keep the tenets close to your heart, and you shall bring much honor to your name, temple, and oft maligned class. Your party may be reluctant to accept you, but after their first few attempts to kill you or run away fail, they should come to view you as inescapable. When you finally have a chance to shine after everyone else is dead, they will realize the true path that you follow, and regret that they could not share in your moment of glory.

Good saves to you all. Amen.

very good, very good.

Zolem
2008-11-21, 07:30 PM
Reading your guide, I have to lol. After all, my freind always plays a monk. He is the primary damage dealer, dealing about 30 some damage an attack at level 5.

monty
2008-11-21, 07:39 PM
Holy necromancy, Batman!

Starbuck_II
2008-11-21, 08:12 PM
Holy necromancy, Batman!

That isn't necromancy: This is necromancy:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=923660

The girl wants the guy to marry her. And he won't unless she can fill her cargo with corpses.

Definately, necromancy awaits.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-21, 08:42 PM
Reading your guide, I have to lol. After all, my freind always plays a monk. He is the primary damage dealer, dealing about 30 some damage an attack at level 5.

How, may I ask?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-21, 08:48 PM
The best Monk damage I can get at level 5:Large Monk(1 LA), Superior Unarmed Strike, INA=3d8=13. Add in 22 Str for +6 and you have 19. Spend 3 feats(flaws maybe) to get dex to damage as well, assuming a 16 and you have him with 22 damage, varying between 12 and 33. Not even near "around 30". It's borderline impossible to make a Barb that deals that using WBL and not wrecking your AB(Shock Trooper hits at 6th).

Thurbane
2008-11-21, 09:01 PM
What, no-one's posted the moderately unfunny thread necromancy image yet?

OK, instead, here's a picture of a delicious burger:

http://blog.peoplenewspapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/pork-burger-su-637691-l.jpg

monty
2008-11-21, 09:03 PM
That isn't necromancy: This is necromancy:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=923660

The girl wants the guy to marry her. And he won't unless she can fill her cargo with corpses.

Definately, necromancy awaits.

That's moderately creepy. At least he's not asking for real corpses, though...

Inyssius Tor
2008-11-21, 09:13 PM
That isn't necromancy: This is necromancy:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=923660

The girl wants the guy to marry her. And he won't unless she can fill her cargo with corpses.

Definately, necromancy awaits.

That is so awesome. D'jou see the picture (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/rlowens/2008.11.21.05.46.51.jpg) on the second-to-last page?

(I would marry someone if they presented me with a Charon full of corpses!

...and I actually knew them beforehand...)