The Monk and 26 attacks per round

[Baron Malkar]

In order to stem the tide of unmerciful comments about the most merciful class I will now tell you all the secret to a combat oriented monk.

The secret is Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, and Greater Multiattack.

Still not getting it? Its very simple really, a monk can use unarmed strike with any portion of his body and every portion so used is "treated as a natural and manufactured weapon for all purposes" including for the above feats.

So assuming your monk only uses his hands, elbows, feet, and knees getting 3 attacks with each that is 8 weapons times 3 attacks per round equals 24 attacks then add a little flurry in there to get 26.

And if you need any more attacks in the 6 second pieriod of time you need only get creative with more unarmed strikes such as head, chest, Gludius Maximus, pelvis, etc.

Lets see a fighter do that!:smallamused:

[Voyager_I]

Lets see a fighter do that!:smallamused:

Don't say that, someone will.

[F.L.]

Even assuming you can do this, there are several problems.

26 attacks means nothing if you can only hit on 20s.
26 attacks means nothing if you lose all subsequent attacks when you roll a 1.
You still need to do a full attack to get all these attacks. This is difficult. If you cannot full attack, which is often, you get 1 attack.
And you're looking to beat the fighter in effectiveness?

[Arbitrarity]

Um. Multiattack doesn't do that. In fact, there is no such thing as improved, or greater, multiattack. Secondly, the only feat that does do that is Draconomicon's Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. Which are dragon and aberration (and a few others? None of them humanoid) only. Also, is a feat an effect?

Oh, and if you think "Elan Monk", rapidstrike requires pairs of natural weapons, which your fists do not qualify for, as they are treated as "a natural weapon". Let me introduce you to the King (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=227556).

I bet ninjas.

Also, I can get that many with a "fighter". Thri-Kreen warblade with Girallon Arms (Not having MoI, I don't know how to get these) potion of Girallon's Blessing, Greater multiweapon fighting, gets 25 attacks per round. Use Time Stands still for 50, and throw in Raging Mongoose for 54. Alternatively, use Girallon Windmill for 20d6 to anyone you hit with 8 attacks.

[Crimson Avenger]

That's got to be the most lenient DM ever!

[playswithfire]

Um. Multiattack doesn't do that. In fact, there is no such thing as improved, or greater, multiattack.

Also, I can get that many with a "fighter". Thri-Kreen warblade with Girallon Arms (Not having MoI, I don't know how to get these) potion of Girallon's Blessing, Greater multiweapon fighting, gets 25 attacks per round. Use Time Stands still for 50, and throw in Raging Mongoose for 54. Alternatively, use Girallon Windmill for 20d6 to anyone you hit with 8 attacks.

There is actually improved multiattack, but all it does is reduce the penalty on secondary natural attacks from 2 to 0.

Don't forget to have that Thri-Kreen weilding Aptitude kukris while in the blood in the water stance and pick up Lightning maces. Gain an extra attack whenever you threaten a critical and get stacking +1s to attack and damage each time you crit as long as you do so at least once every 10 rounds. Might also want to dip into blood claw master for Superior Multiweapon Fighting and full strength to offhand damage rolls.

[Tokiko Mima]

Umm.. but Unarmed Strike is not a natural attack? They're actually pretty different, even though you can qualify for feats or use spells/effects as though they were the same.

For one thing, an Unarmed Strike is an iterative attack style, like most melee weapons. If you have a BAB over +5, you get another unarmed attack at BAB -5 bonus. That doesn't apply to natural attacks, like claws, which only get one attack no matter how high your BAB is. I think you're combining iterative and natural attack styles together.

Secondly, I dunno you you realistically plan to attack simultaneously with both hands, both elbows, both knees, and both feet at once. The physics on that is a little crazy, unless your body is made of rubber or something.

Thirdly, I don't mean to be a rules lawyer on this but if monks could have 8 attacks at level 3 and 24 at level 15, how would any other PC class compete? It gets into the realm of "the Monk can't possibly miss an attack" which is fun for the monk, but not for the party.

[Sir Giacomo]

As Arbitrarity has shown, it is not possible. Likely this is just another one of the monk mock threads.

The monk is the record holder of most non-morphed attacks/round in core, but not this way.:smallsmile: (I guess it is with 11 shuriken/round by level 16 in a build with greater flurry, divine power, haste, the twf tree, rapid shot).

- Giacomo

[Arbitrarity]

True. I meant in the fashion he described. Well, my warblade isn't really a fighter. But, if we do the same thing, and remove the Time Stands still, we get...

(Non psionic) Thri-kreen Fighter 15/Totemist 2

Totemist gets the Girallon arms, get a potion, so 8 arms. Greater Multiweapon fighting wih the aforementioned technique, for 25 attacks. Add haste, for 26. Toss in a wig, and some Dragon Magazine 120 Braid Blades, for a few more attacks. Any ways to get more arms? Polymorph, prehaps.

[playswithfire]

(Non psionic) Thri-kreen Fighter 15/Totemist 2


If I may suggest, you might want to drop 5 levels of Fighter for 5 levels of War Mind. Lose two bonus feats but gain sweeping strikes, so every attack you make, you can also make against an enemy adjacent to the one you just attacked. I think you also gain just enough psychic warrior powers to use psionic lion's charge.

Though obviously, nothing stops the monk from taking this dip as well and he'll have the wisdom synergy for the psionic powers. And, in theory, he can use Tashalatora(War Mind).
A kalashtar Monk 6/War Mind 5 with Monastic Training and Tashalatora has BAB 9, greater flurry and sweeping strikes.

It's fun to think about getting lots of attacks.

[Crimson Avenger]

True. I meant in the fashion he described. Well, my warblade isn't really a fighter. But, if we do the same thing, and remove the Time Stands still, we get...

(Non psionic) Thri-kreen Fighter 15/Totemist 2

Totemist gets the Girallon arms, get a potion, so 8 arms. Greater Multiweapon fighting wih the aforementioned technique, for 25 attacks. Add haste, for 26. Toss in a wig, and some Dragon Magazine 120 Braid Blades, for a few more attacks. Any ways to get more arms? Polymorph, prehaps.

You're gonna hafta explain the math on that one.

[Burley]

Okay, here's my two copper, and I hope nobody gets offended:
While the math, physics, and (apparently) rule usage is incorrect, the OP had the idea to do something without creating some freak of freakin' nature. Of course something with a-million-and-four arms is gonna get more attacks! But, that doesn't mean it's a good thing. What's the point of having all those arms and attacks when half the people on your plane are gonna kill you, thinking that you're a monster? Sure you're a Gorillinsect thingy...but NPCs can be adventuring parties, too. (And, as a DM, I would either NEVER-EVER allow that much complication into a single PC, or I would allow it and inform the player they would have drastic consequinces.)
But, a monk? A monk who's entire fighting style is using their body in ways that other classes couldn't? That makes perfect sense. Flurry of Blows, in and of itself, is all about making lightning quick attacks, while sacrificing accuracy/power. If somebody is gonna say that making a couple dozen swings by flailing your body around for six seconds is physically impossible, and then talk about growing extra arms and using magic weapons and growing a tail to swing a spiked chain and use their belly button to activate wands of Time Stop... Whatever, man. That's between you and your logic.

If you don't think a well-trained monk could make that many attacks in six seconds, look at a 6 year old throwing a temper tantrum. They'll swing a good three limbs ever half second (36 attacks in a full round action), and, while only one or two will actually hit you, they can do it without falling down, or becoming a Awakened Fiendish Octopus with the Girrallon template and Shadow tendrils.

I think we should be applauding the OP for his idea, and help him find ways to make it work, instead of saying that you can't ever do it without deforming yourself.

And, finally: A Fighter/Totemist is not a fighter. It is a fighter/totemist. Making a Monk/Totemist would give more attacks that the fighter would get. But, Malkar made a full Monk, so, you should try to counter him with a full fighter, if you're gonna counter at all.

*Finally takes a breath*

Sorry...:smalleek:

[Fax Celestis]

True. I meant in the fashion he described. Well, my warblade isn't really a fighter. But, if we do the same thing, and remove the Time Stands still, we get...

(Non psionic) Thri-kreen Fighter 15/Totemist 2

Totemist gets the Girallon arms, get a potion, so 8 arms. Greater Multiweapon fighting wih the aforementioned technique, for 25 attacks. Add haste, for 26. Toss in a wig, and some Dragon Magazine 120 Braid Blades, for a few more attacks. Any ways to get more arms? Polymorph, prehaps.

Insectoid Multiheaded Multilimbed Non-Psionic Thri-Kreen Totemist with potions of girallon's blessing (or a continuous item of the same): I have three heads with bite attacks, ten arms with claw attacks, and can full-attack with them at the end of a charge due to Sphinx Claws' quasi-Pounce ability. Oh, and Rend.

[Crimson Avenger]

But isn't this a case of "The rules don't specifically say you can't, so you must be able to....." Except that in this case the rules DO specifically say you can't do that.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.



Monks are like everyone else, they can only make one attack until the BAB if +6, unless they TWF or Flurry of Blows. Just because you can use your knee instead of you fist doesn't mean that you can use them simultaneously. It is a marvelous idea, but that's where it ends.

[Crimson Avenger]

Insectoid Multiheaded Multilimbed Non-Psionic Thri-Kreen Totemist with potions of girallon's blessing (or a continuous item of the same): I have three heads with bite attacks, ten arms with claw attacks, and can full-attack with them at the end of a charge due to Sphinx Claws' quasi-Pounce ability. Oh, and Rend.

Now...see...that's just wrong.

[Irreverent Fool]

Rant

I agree with everything you just said, especially the topic of getting that many attacks in the span of a 6-second round. 6 seconds is a very long time, and for a trained martial artist, I don't doubt that you could be hit 26 times in that span. That's only... what, 4 or so attacks per second?

There's no need for the monk to be hitting you with all of his limbs at once. He can use a specialized attack routine and say, elbow you and punch you with the same arm while kicking and kneeing you with his opposite leg.

Anyhow, OP... if you're serious about this, post a more detailed build including sources. Please?

[Theli]

Actually, you can use two weapon fighting to make an additional attack using nothing but unarmed strikes.

There are two separate reasons why multiattack breaks down:

A) The unarmed strike only counts as a single natural weapon. It does not count as multiple ones, even for a monk. So the base monk can't fulfill the multiattack prerequisite of 3 natural attacks.

B) The only thing multiattack actually does is reduce the penalty of your secondary natural weapons. (Improved multiattack drops this down to zero.) The unarmed strike is NOT a secondary natural weapon.

There is no such thing as greater multiattack apparantly.

Either the OP got multiattack confused with multiweapon and interpreted that...very oddly. Or, s/he was making a trolling attempt with all the strife regarding Monks lately.

[Tyrael]

Pelvis natural attack. I would so pay to see that.

"GROIN THRUST!"

or, even better:

"Falcon THRUST!"

which you then have to finish with "showmeyamoves!"

[AKA_Bait]

Isn't multiattack a monster only feat?

[Theli]

There is apparently no such thing as a "monster only" feat.

Even the official FAQ has clarified that a feat available only in the monster manual (Improved Natural Attack) is applicable to non-monster races and characters. (In this case, a monk of any race.)

There is not a single hint of game mechanics that would restrict feats to only monsters as long as the player character can fulfill it's prerequisites.

[Thinker]

Isn't multiattack a monster only feat?

There are no "monster only" feats. It has prerequisites that anyone can fulfill.

[daggaz]

But
Monks are like everyone else, they can only make one attack until the BAB if +6, unless they TWF or Flurry of Blows. Just because you can use your knee instead of you fist doesn't mean that you can use them simultaneously. It is a marvelous idea, but that's where it ends.

Well, at least somebody said this. Im surprised I had to read thru 20 some posts about rediculous multiarmed builds with feindish insect templates etc and out of hte way side arguments about why Y and Z would not work before somebody actually stated the obvious.

Way to go, Crimson Avenger. You win a cookie. Too bad basic understanding of RAW now rewards a cookie tho..

[Fax Celestis]

Well, at least somebody said this. Im surprised I had to read thru 20 some posts about rediculous multiarmed builds with feindish insect templates etc and out of hte way side arguments about why Y and Z would not work before somebody actually stated the obvious.

Way to go, Crimson Avenger. You win a cookie. Too bad basic understanding of RAW now rewards a cookie tho..

There are those of us who wait for others to state the obvious and merely state what is interesting and relevant.

[Indon]

I think we should be applauding the OP for his idea, and help him find ways to make it work, instead of saying that you can't ever do it without deforming yourself.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree.

Based off of the feats required for Girallion's Blessing bound by a non-incarnum class, it would seem that an extra off-hand attack is worth roughly one feat (there are probably other feats with better rates, but I'm going approximate here).

Thus, it wouldn't be too out-of-keeping to houserule on the spot that for a feat, a Monk can gain an additional effective off-hand attack with their unarmed strike. Maybe cap the number of times the feat can be taken to Monk Level /4 or something, to limit monk dipping followed by massive limb-oriented exploitation.

[Tokiko Mima]

Yeah, can't a Monk take TWF and make two unarmed attacks at a -2/-2 penalty already? Then they could Flurry for three attacks at a -4/-4/-4 penalty right at level one! :smallsmile:

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, can't a Monk take TWF and make two unarmed attacks at a -2/-2 penalty already? Then they could Flurry for three attacks at a -4/-4/-4 penalty right at level one! :smallsmile:

Oh, hooray. -4/-4/-4 is such an attractive attack pattern. You're right, though, that it works: it's just kinda a crappy option.

[AKA_Bait]

There is apparently no such thing as a "monster only" feat.

Even the official FAQ has clarified that a feat available only in the monster manual (Improved Natural Attack) is applicable to non-monster races and characters. (In this case, a monk of any race.)

There is not a single hint of game mechanics that would restrict feats to only monsters as long as the player character can fulfill it's prerequisites.

So, then I could make a Warlock and take Quicken Spell Like Ability after level 10? Interesting...

[Crimson Avenger]

So, then I could make a Warlock and take Quicken Spell Like Ability after level 10? Interesting...

Yes, yes you can. Just don't forget that unlike all other SLA, the eldritch blast has a Somatic component.

I don't know if I want a cookie for understanding that itterative attacks and multiple natural attacks don't stack together.....but I'll take every cookie I can get.

[AKA_Bait]

Yes, yes you can. Just don't forget that unlike all other SLA, the eldritch blast has a Somatic component.


I was actually thinking about using it on invocations since those are SLA's too.

[Woot Spitum]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Snap Kick feat. I see that mentioned on a lot of builds as a way to get a little extra damage.

[Signmaker]

To those that agree with the OP's concept:

Yes, you can flail all you like for 6 seconds.

However.

Beating an opponent's AC does not mean you 'hit' them. It means that you hit them in a way to do damage. Yes, a toddler with a temper tantrum can wail and flair, but getting hit four or five times by said toddler does not kill you, nor does it render you unconscious.

The rules do not support the tactic described, nor does logic do so. Granted, RAW is often cited to throw logic out the window, but limb-flailing rarely does significant damage. Go watch a middle school fight for proof.

[Tokiko Mima]

Oh, hooray. -4/-4/-4 is such an attractive attack pattern. You're right, though, that it works: it's just kinda a crappy option.

:smallfrown: It's not my fault TWF and Flurry of Blows are lame abilities. They do get you extra attacks....

Personally, I think a less lame way is via the Snap Kick Feat from ToB. You still get the -2 penalty, but you get the extra attack on a standard action attacks as well as a full attacks. They should make Flurry of Blows like that as well! :smallsmile:


I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Snap Kick feat. I see that mentioned on a lot of builds as a way to get a little extra damage.

I was ninja-ed! :smallwink:

[Roderick_BR]

You are aware that the monk's unarmed strike means that he can punch OR kick OR headbutt, etc, with any 1 of his normal attacks, right? You don't start with 5 natural attacks at 1st level.

[Chronos]

Real-life martial artists can indeed get ridiculous numbers of attacks per second, faster even than the 26 per 6 seconds discussed here. One method is what's called a pivoting elbow: You jab the guy in the gut with your elbow, then swing your fist down into his groin, then bounce back up and hit him in the chest with your fist, and keep bouncing your fist between his groin and chest while your elbow stays in the same place.

I will not comment on how effective this is, compared to other attack routines, but it is at least possible.

[its_all_ogre]

and its gluteus maximus..........

[Woot Spitum]

Real-life martial artists can indeed get ridiculous numbers of attacks per second, faster even than the 26 per 6 seconds discussed here. One method is what's called a pivoting elbow: You jab the guy in the gut with your elbow, then swing your fist down into his groin, then bounce back up and hit him in the chest with your fist, and keep bouncing your fist between his groin and chest while your elbow stays in the same place.

I will not comment on how effective this is, compared to other attack routines, but it is at least possible.Sadly, the D&D monk is more focused on mystic ki crap than on actual martial arts. If they had all sorts of unique abilities involving throws, holds, combinations, and fighting styles instead of random junk like timeless body, monks might actually be effective. This is why I don't like monks, not so much because of what they are, but for how much better and more interesting they could have been.

Why wizards thought monk flavor would be better as spouters of fortune cookie wisdom that doesn't entirely fit the setting as opposed to more universal butt-kicking, name-taking martial artists is beyond me.:smallmad:

[Baron Malkar]

Darn...

I seem to have gotten multi attack and mulit weapon fighting mixed up. I think it may be because I origionaly bult it as a human with a Spare Hand (printed in Monte Cook Presents The Years Best D20) located on his back and had multi weapon fighting instead of multi attack.

My intention was to show that any class can be tricked out to the broken state so that people would stop harrasing my favorite class. But I failed.:smallfrown:

[Theli]

Why wizards thought monk flavor would be better as spouters of fortune cookie wisdom that doesn't entirely fit the setting as opposed to more universal butt-kicking, name-taking martial artists is beyond me.:smallmad:

Here's a hint:

Much of the capabilities of the current monk were present in earlier versions of DnD. (Tongue of sun and moon? Earlier DnD monk had the capability to speak with animals as if a druid of a certain level. Other abilities have a similar history.)

Yep, that's right. It's nothing but a play on nostalgia.

[Woot Spitum]

Here's a hint:

Much of the capabilities of the current monk were present in earlier versions of DnD. (Tongue of sun and moon? Earlier DnD monk had the capability to speak with animals as if a druid of a certain level. Other abilities have a similar history.)

Yep, that's right. It's nothing but a play on nostalgia.So what I should have said was:

Why wizards TSR thought monk flavor would be better as spouters of fortune cookie wisdom that doesn't entirely fit the setting as opposed to more universal butt-kicking, name-taking martial artists is beyond me.:smallmad:

[Fax Celestis]

Darn...

I seem to have gotten multi attack and mulit weapon fighting mixed up. I think it may be because I origionaly bult it as a human with a Spare Hand (printed in Monte Cook Presents The Years Best D20) located on his back and had multi weapon fighting instead of multi attack.

My intention was to show that any class can be tricked out to the broken state so that people would stop harrasing my favorite class. But I failed.:smallfrown:

It may well be your favorite class, but it's widely considered to be one of the weakest base classes out there. It's abilities do not synergize very well with itself (eg: Flurry requiring a full attack, bonuses to speed and mobility), which is it's largest fundamental problem.

[Theli]

So what I should have said was:

Why wizards TSR thought monk flavor would be better as spouters of fortune cookie wisdom that doesn't entirely fit the setting as opposed to more universal butt-kicking, name-taking martial artists is beyond me.:smallmad:

Because it was the 70s/80s? (*shrugs* I don't know when monks were introduced.)

They saw those old badly dubbed martial arts films about shaolin monks and the like and wanted to mimic that with a DnD class I guess.

[Thinker]

Darn...

I seem to have gotten multi attack and mulit weapon fighting mixed up. I think it may be because I origionaly bult it as a human with a Spare Hand (printed in Monte Cook Presents The Years Best D20) located on his back and had multi weapon fighting instead of multi attack.

My intention was to show that any class can be tricked out to the broken state so that people would stop harrasing my favorite class. But I failed.:smallfrown:

No one argues that classes can be optimized to become good, but many classes are easier to optimize and are better than a similarly optimized monk.

[Roderick_BR]

Darn...

I seem to have gotten multi attack and mulit weapon fighting mixed up. I think it may be because I origionaly bult it as a human with a Spare Hand (printed in Monte Cook Presents The Years Best D20) located on his back and had multi weapon fighting instead of multi attack.

My intention was to show that any class can be tricked out to the broken state so that people would stop harrasing my favorite class. But I failed.:smallfrown:
Hold a monk weapon in each hand, tie kamas on each feat, and tie one on your head. That could work :smallbiggrin:

[Sornas]

I was actually thinking about using it on invocations since those are SLA's too.

3 cheers for quickened Flee the Scene! ^^

And Baron, the monk is one of the weakest classes, yes. But that doesn't stop you from playing them or enjoying them. The fact that the monk is a weak class isn't something that should stop you from playing the game the way you like.

Who cares if it is weak? Who cares if someone can make one that does 72973 attacks per round at 23432d42 per round? The fact is, you enjoy the class, and you shouldn't feel like you have anything to prove to anyone for it.

And to be honest, in the long run, unless you are in a very crunch heavy game, it probably won't make a big difference, especially with a good DM, since everyone at the table is there to have fun. (I know I'm bordering Oberoni Fallacy territory here, but my point stands)

[Woot Spitum]

Because it was the 70s/80s? (*shrugs* I don't know when monks were introduced.)

They saw those old badly dubbed martial arts films about shaolin monks and the like and wanted to mimic that with a DnD class I guess.Yep. But they still could have chosen to make monks like Bruce Lee as opposed to say, David Carradine.

[Solo]

3 cheers for quickened Flee the Scene! ^^

And Baron, the monk is one of the weakest classes, yes. But that doesn't stop you from playing them or enjoying them. The fact that the monk is a weak class isn't something that should stop you from playing the game the way you like.

Who cares if it is weak? Who cares if someone can make one that does 72973 attacks per round at 23432d42 per round? The fact is, you enjoy the class, and you shouldn't feel like you have anything to prove to anyone for it.

And to be honest, in the long run, unless you are in a very crunch heavy game, it probably won't make a big difference, especially with a good DM, since everyone at the table is there to have fun. (I know I'm bordering Oberoni Fallacy territory here, but my point stands)

Of course, what a lot of people dislike is when people do not admit it's weak rather than pretend it's balanced.

[Theli]

Yep. But they still could have chosen to make monks like Bruce Lee as opposed to say, David Carradine.

Again, "old badly dubbed movies". I think they sourced from films produced before both Kato and Kwai Chang Kaine. :p

That said, I believe monks were significantly better off in earlier editions than they are now. So I guess you really do need to blame Wizards for any faults you find in the class, nostalgia or no.

[Baron Malkar]

And Baron, the monk is one of the weakest classes, yes. But that doesn't stop you from playing them or enjoying them. The fact that the monk is a weak class isn't something that should stop you from playing the game the way you like.

Who cares if it is weak? Who cares if someone can make one that does 72973 attacks per round at 23432d42 per round? The fact is, you enjoy the class, and you shouldn't feel like you have anything to prove to anyone for it.

And to be honest, in the long run, unless you are in a very crunch heavy game, it probably won't make a big difference, especially with a good DM, since everyone at the table is there to have fun. (I know I'm bordering Oberoni Fallacy territory here, but my point stands)

Thanks for the encouragement but I dont think that it is ever the class that is weak. I enjoy playing the monk because he is so dificult to put cheese on that is why I just bult the monk of many attacks.

Thri kreen2\barbarian 2\monk 15

Feats in order of getting them: Deflect arrows, multiweapon fighting, power attack, improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, cleave, combat reflexes, improved multiweapon fighting, improved trip, great cleave, Improved critical (unarmed strike), snatch arrows

hp:18D8+2D12+20*con. Mod.

speed:90ft

swapped out barbarians fast movement for pounce (complete champion)

attack bounuses without ability mod.: +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3

with each hit doing 2D8+str.

and there is a host of other abilitys from thoseclass levels.:smalltongue:

Edit: I just noticed that it has gone to 39 attacks per round.

[Arbitrarity]

One second... You have an extra hit die, umm... 11 arms?

You have 4 arms, with Greater Multiweapon Fighting (which you don't qualify for, as it requires 15 BAB. You don't have that at CL 18). Which would be 12 attacks total. Really, since you can't have Greater multiweapon fighting, you have 9 attacks, another two from flurry.

That's...

+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3

If you use the Girallon's Arms soulmeld (not sure how you qualify, as I don't have MOI) and a potion of Girallon's Blessing, you get an extra 8 attacks, for 13/13/13/13/13/13/13/13/13/13/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/3

You, however, seem to have 11 arms, which makes no sense. Where did you get those from?

[Baron Malkar]

Im still using unarmed strikes for elbows, feet, knees, and bite and my BAB would be exactly +15 due to racial hit dice.

edit: just redid everything and you were right about the BAB thing.

[Arbitrarity]

Untrue. At level 18, when you get your last feat, you have BAB of 2 from RHD, 2 from Barbarian, and 10 from 14 levels of monk, for a total of 14. Therefore, you cannot qualify at level 18, which is your last feat pre-epic.

Also, the ludicrously lenient definitions remind me of a warforged with far too many weapon modifications.

[tyckspoon]

Im still using unarmed strikes for elbows, feet, knees, and bite and my BAB would be exactly +15 due to racial hit dice.

Yeah, that.. umm.. doesn't work. As has been pointed out, elbows/feet/knees don't actually count as extra arms to provide more strikes. A bite is a distinct natural weapon in its own right; you get one attack with it, and neither multiweapon fighting nor the Monk's unarmed strike damage apply to it. And your BAB only reaches +15 at level 19 (ECL 20)... which isn't a multiple of 3, so you don't get a feat at that level to actually take Greater Multiweapon Fighting with.

[Baron Malkar]

Ill concede that the bite might not work but the elbows, knees, and feet were specificly mentioned as also bieng unarmed strikesand nowhere does anything say that all attacks involving multiweapon fighting must be with hands.

[Theli]

And this, boys and girls, is why trying to push a horribly loose interpretation of RAW in order to exploit something is a BAD idea.

The inevitable result is something like this, which can in no possible way be the designer's intent.

Watch, listen, and learn. And be nice to your DMs, ya hear?

[Arbitrarity]

Oh, also: 400 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=940422), 1496 (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp%3Furl%3Dhttp://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D6648140%26origin%3D)

I don't think you have 500 seperate body parts that can be used to attack in a thematically reasonable fashion. Also, if you did, that TO boards hasn't done this might indicate something.

Ooops! I forgot Chuck (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=852524). 245,147,570 attacks. :smallbiggrin:

[horseboy]

You can't combine flurry of blows with natural attacks. It either flurries or it takes it's thri keen attacks you can not combine them.

[Baron Malkar]

O.K. i've been beaten by referencing other ways of getting way more attacks in a full attack action but next time there is a wisard VS. monk remember that the wizard dosent have that many hit points and low ac.

[Theli]

You can't combine flurry of blows with natural attacks. It either flurries or it takes it's thri keen attacks you can not combine them.

Well...you can actually. As long as the monster stat block has a full attack progression that includes both a manufactured weapon progression and natural weapons.

It's one of those iffy things that the official FAQ allows.

[Sornas]

O.K. i've been beaten by referencing other ways of getting way more attacks in a full attack action but next time there is a wisard VS. monk remember that the wizard dosent have that many hit points and low ac.

Trust me, that is a whole 'nother can that you don't want opened right now. ^^;

[mostlyharmful]

You can't combine flurry of blows with natural attacks. It either flurries or it takes it's thri keen attacks you can not combine them.

which is why Poly isn't any more hidiously broken for monks than it is for anyone else, otherwise you turn into a Hydra that uses all four legs, it's tail and any damn thing else to roll a bajillion dice until their targets just give up and go home. Just how many attacks can it be sane to allow a PC to have in one round, RAW or not. If a round lasts sic seconds and your PC attacks 478 times just how fast are the various parts of your anatomy moving?:smallconfused: I'm all for using as much RAW as you can but when you start sonic boomig with your elbow you've passed the line as far as Im concerned.

[Voyager_I]

O.K. i've been beaten by referencing other ways of getting way more attacks in a full attack action but next time there is a wisard VS. monk remember that the wizard dosent have that many hit points and low ac.

1. Even if you weren't violating the rules like it's big, beefy cell-mate named "Bubba", no DM in the history of ever is going to let you get an arbitrary number of natural attacks just by listing body parts. It just doesn't work that way, and nobody would let you do it.

2. Wizards generally have good Con, Dex, and defensive spells. You're also assuming the Monk will ever get to see the Wizard, much less reach them, much less full attack them.

[Arbitrarity]

245 million attacks for the win. :smallbiggrin: Actually, it gets higher if you use nightsticks, IIRC.


Hm. That build has the issue of using a custom item. It can be fixed with many belts of battle, but that limits it due to cost. Ah well :smallsigh:

[mostlyharmful]

O.K. i've been beaten by referencing other ways of getting way more attacks in a full attack action but next time there is a wisard VS. monk remember that the wizard dosent have that many hit points and low ac.

Overland Flight, Invis/GreaterInvis, Mirror image, Contingency, Teleport, Mage armour, Greater Resistance, Clone, Genesis, Celerity, Shapechange/PAO/Poly/Alterself, Rope Trick/MordsMagMansion, Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Mount, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Wind Wall, Astal Projection, Resilient Sphere, Telekinetic Sphere, Magic Jar, Repulsion...... Bring it

[horseboy]

Well...you can actually. As long as the monster stat block has a full attack progression that includes both a manufactured weapon progression and natural weapons.

It's one of those iffy things that the official FAQ allows.
No, you can not use any natural weapon (like vampire slams, claws or bites) and the only manufactured weapons allowed are monk weapons.

[Fax Celestis]

No, you can not use any natural weapon (like vampire slams, claws or bites) and the only manufactured weapons allowed are monk weapons.

You cannot use natural weapons in the flurry. But, like any full-attack action, your natural attacks can be tagged onto the end as additional attacks at a -5 penalty (unless you have Multiattack, in which case it's -2).

[Theli]

No, you can not use any natural weapon (like vampire slams, claws or bites) and the only manufactured weapons allowed are monk weapons.

I'm fully aware of the ruling that natural weapons don't count as monk weapons and aren't allowed to be part of the flurry of blows attack.

However, there is an exception made for certain monsters that allows them to make natural attacks *in addition to* attacking with manufactured weapons. And it is this loophole that allows those monsters to use natural weapons at the some time as flurry of blows.

From the official 3.5 FAQ:

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can
he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed
(plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof
attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).

...and...


If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as the
standard two claws and a bite array) takes levels of monk,
how do flurry of blows and its natural attack progression
interact?
You can’t use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as
part of a flurry of blows—only unarmed strikes and special
monk weapons may be used in a flurry of blows.
If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a
secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapon
attacks, it may do the same with that natural weapon in
conjunction with a flurry of blows. Any penalty assessed on
attacks by the flurry of blows would also apply to the natural
weapon attack.
For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and
its bite as part of a full attack. Normally, a creature would take
a –5 penalty on an attack roll made with a secondary weapon,
but since the lizardfolk has Multiattack, the penalty on the
attack roll is reduced to –2 and adds only half the lizardfolk’s
Strength bonus on the damage roll.
If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows
(using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack
as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a –2
penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a
–4 penalty (–2 from flurry of blows and –2 from being a
secondary weapon, reduced from –5 by Multiattack).

It's on the WotC's site. Download it and see for yourself.

[horseboy]

:smallconfused: And you guys call Rolemaster complicated.

[tyckspoon]

245 million attacks for the win. :smallbiggrin: Actually, it gets higher if you use nightsticks, IIRC.


Hm. That build has the issue of using a custom item. It can be fixed with many belts of battle, but that limits it due to cost. Ah well :smallsigh:

It doesn't, actually- the custom item merely increases the damage and number attacks by another.. doubling, I think? There are two or three iterations of the build that use only printed items in the thread as well, and those are already hitting trillions of damage.

[Stycotl]

hey, if anything else, this post might just serve to inspire someone to make a better monk, or a monk prc.

i can imagine a feat that gives you a secondary (natural) attack as kind of a signature move or something. monk flurries with hands, feet, and fists, and then finishes his foe off with a brutal headbutt, or a leaping knee to the face or something.

[Fax Celestis]

:smallconfused: And you guys call Rolemaster complicated.

It's part of the way natural attacks work. Unfortunately, the relevant text seems to have been omitted from the SRD.

[Irreverent Fool]

I would prefer increasing chance to hit and damage per hit to reflect multiple attacks rather than actually increasing attacks like this. There's nothing quite like having 4 people wait on you while you roll a long and ineffectual series of misses.

[Theli]

It's part of the way natural attacks work. Unfortunately, the relevant text seems to have been omitted from the SRD.

Is there a place that says explicitly that you can add all natural attacks to manufactured weapon progressions elsewhere, no matter the form of the creature (assuming it can use manufactured weapons at all)?

I'd be really interested in finding out where that's said...

[Fax Celestis]

Is there a place that says explicitly that you can add all natural attacks to manufactured weapon progressions elsewhere, no matter the form of the creature (assuming it can use manufactured weapons at all)?

I'd be really interested in finding out where that's said...

I believe it's in the MM.

[Sir Giacomo]

which is why Poly isn't any more hidiously broken for monks than it is for anyone else, ....

Nope, as Theli has illustrated with the FAQ quote above.

A class whose entire combat style is devoted to unarmed, unarmoured fighting with a lot of defensive abilities (SR, move enhance, immunities, saves) that are not lost in morph OF COURSE is the class that makes most use of morph spells. At 20th level, a monk can even access permanently all the outsider shapes up to 15 HD by getting a cheap npc POA casting (or buff from fellow caster pc).

Polymorph may be broken in core (as I now learned also official WoTC opinion courtesy sstupitallkid :smallsmile: ). But for a monk, it goes beyond even that.

- Giacomo

[Kurald Galain]

A class whose entire combat style is devoted to unarmed, unarmoured fighting with a lot of defensive abilities (SR, move enhance, immunities, saves) that are not lost in morph OF COURSE is the class that makes most use of morph spells.

Nope. Any class with full BAB is by definition going to be more effective.

You don't need move enhancers to be effective polymorphed, because polymorph gives you all the move enhancers you'll ever need. Et cetera.

[Sir Giacomo]

Nope. Any class with full BAB is by definition going to be more effective.

By what definition? "BAB is the one and only yardstick of fighting power".? Besides, you can get buffs to get full BAB. The full BAB classes meanwhile lose their weaponry and armour in any non-medium, non-humanoid form.


You don't need move enhancers to be effective polymorphed, because polymorph gives you all the move enhancers you'll ever need. Et cetera.

Yes, all have great move with polymorph. But being faster by up to +60ft in ALL speeds (including burrowing) is even better.

- Giacomo

[Zincorium]

By what definition? "BAB is the one and only yardstick of fighting power".? Besides, you can get buffs to get full BAB. The full BAB classes meanwhile lose their weaponry and armour in any non-medium, non-humanoid form.

Buffs the monk can't get without special, GM approved, magic items. Clerics have that particular scam locked down.


Honestly, the whole 'polymorphing monk' thing has been done to death. I, and anyone I've talked to about it, has never seen a party devote any particular spells to the monk over and above what the group as a whole gets. So there's haste, bless, bard song, etc.

Not polymorph.

Until I see a wizard who agrees to continually polymorph the monk, or a DM who'll allow a multiple use polymorph magic item, I'm just gonna consider it pure wishful thinking.

Oh, and BAB? Hitting things, power attack limits, grappling, disarming, sundering.

And it would be stupid for a fighter to not turn into something that can use weapons and armor, because by the text of the spell he keeps it all as long as the new form can use it.

[Kurald Galain]

By what definition?
By the definition that every full-BAB class ever written is more effective than the monk by a long shot, a fact that is well known to WOTC, as well as to pretty much everyone on these forums except for you.



Yes, all have great move with polymorph. But being faster by up to +60ft in ALL speeds (including burrowing) is even better.
Nonsense. Above a certain threshold (which is easily met by most classes), extra speed becomes completely irrelevant.

[Indon]

By the definition that every full-BAB class ever written is more effective than the monk by a long shot, a fact that is well known to WOTC, as well as to pretty much everyone on these forums except for you.

I think you're being overly dramatic in your crusade to ensure everyone agrees with you that the monk is the Worst Class Ever.

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, I think monk can plausibly defeat a warrior. But otherwise, meh.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I think you're being overly dramatic in your crusade to ensure everyone agrees with you that the monk is the Worst Class Ever.

I think it is the constant denial of the truth that pushes him to that, also I'm not sure if the monk is inferior to every full BaB class ever printed, maybe we should have a battle between the CW samurai and the monk to find out.

[Indon]

I think it is the constant denial of the truth that pushes him to that,

I think it's because next to nobody actually plays like this forum would expect them to that most people have that sort of conception when first entering the world of Optimized D&D.

[Kurald Galain]

I think you're being overly dramatic in your crusade to ensure everyone agrees with you that the monk is the Worst Class Ever.

Please leave your personal attacks at the door, thank you.

[Indon]

Please leave your personal attacks at the door, thank you.

Then please support your claim that


By the definition that every full-BAB class ever written is more effective than the monk by a long shot, a fact that is well known to WOTC,

(Emphasis added)

If it's not just rhetoric whose only purpose seems to be to eradicate the fun people who come to this forum obviously have by playing monks.

[Fawsto]

Now I am sure that the smell I felt was nothing more than pure cheese.

[Sir Giacomo]

By the definition that every full-BAB class ever written is more effective than the monk by a long shot, a fact that is well known to WOTC, as well as to pretty much everyone on these forums except for you.

Pls link the WoTC official view on this. It would really surprise me since, in most recent FAQ and RAW/rules compendium updates (courtesy Lord_Silvanos for pointing these out to me), the monk class was actually made weaker by
- flurry no longer being allowed anymore with a gauntlet
- damage reduction/magic being ruled supernatural and thus not up in an AMF used by a monk of 20th level (with non-supernatural perfect self ability)
- AMF now being ruled to no longer block line of effect

These are not the actions of game designers believing the monk class to be seriously underpowered nor casters overpowered, for that matter.


Nonsense. Above a certain threshold (which is easily met by most classes), extra speed becomes completely irrelevant.

Extra speed never becomes completely irrelevant, since the faster creature of the encounter determines when/if it will take place, abstracting from ranged effects. Many ranged effects, though, are stopped by end of line of sight/effect, something increasingly likely with higher levels.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Buffs the monk can't get without special, GM approved, magic items. Clerics have that particular scam locked down.

Wand of Divine Power. DM approval needed, yes, but that is also true for a sword+1. (a wand is not a custom item or special in any way).


Honestly, the whole 'polymorphing monk' thing has been done to death. I, and anyone I've talked to about it, has never seen a party devote any particular spells to the monk over and above what the group as a whole gets. So there's haste, bless, bard song, etc.

Not polymorph.

But polymorph can be cast on others, so why stop there? Apart from its widely assumed brokenness, of course.


Until I see a wizard who agrees to continually polymorph the monk, or a DM who'll allow a multiple use polymorph magic item, I'm just gonna consider it pure wishful thinking.

If it's allowed in the game there is no reason to assume a spell that can be cast on others will not be cast on others.


Oh, and BAB? Hitting things, power attack limits, grappling, disarming, sundering.

But the stuff you named (power attack, grapple, disarm, sunder) already illustrates that there is more to combat than BAB.


And it would be stupid for a fighter to not turn into something that can use weapons and armor, because by the text of the spell he keeps it all as long as the new form can use it.

Oh, he can still use the weapons, but if he is large-sized or larger, he gets a penalty to use them (the stuff does not grow with him as in enlarge person, for instance). If he is no longer humanoid in form, he can no longer use the missile weapons and most weapons, neither. So no more TH-power attack.
I did not say that the fighter cannot be polymorphed into something useful AND still be able to use his weapons and armour. Only that the monk can be turned into ANYTHING and he still can use all of his combat abilities. Which looks like a definite advantage to me.

- Giacomo

[Theli]

These are not the actions of game designers believing the monk class to be seriously underpowered nor casters overpowered, for that matter.

It's a strange assumption...to believe that WotC designers intend to improve balance by making FAQ clarifications.

I don't think balance has anything to do with the FAQ.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I think it's because next to nobody actually plays like this forum would expect them to that most people have that sort of conception when first entering the world of Optimized D&D.

I'm not sure if my interpretation of your post is correct, remember: inter-punctuation is your friend.

So very little people play fully optimised characters, some by choice others out by lack of skill/knowledge and still others because they're forced too(:smallwink: ).

I agree with this, although I'm not sure if "this forum expects them to play that way".

So when these people who do not optimise enter the world of optimised D&D they want to force their believes that the monk is a poor class on to other people and exaggerate it's weakness? This is were I stop seeing what your trying to say.

[Theli]

I believe it's in the MM.

Can't find anything in there that explicitly states this... It's always a case of "Some creatures can"...

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: While you are free to disagree with others' opinions, please do not attack others personally. Thank you.

[Voyager_I]

But the stuff you named (power attack, grapple, disarm, sunder) already illustrates that there is more to combat than BAB.
- Giacomo

Yes, and all of them rely on your BAB.

[dyslexicfaser]

Yes, and all of them rely on your BAB.
Generally, yes.

There are ways to get around that, however.

[Voyager_I]

Generally, yes.

There are ways to get around that, however.

Full BAB + Enhancements > 3/4 BAB + Enhancements

Even if you somehow finagled a Full BAB spell into that somehow, that's still another buff that could have been cast on the Full BAB character (or a spell slot saved, at the least).

[dyslexicfaser]

Full BAB + Enhancements > 3/4 BAB + Enhancements

Even if you somehow finagled a Full BAB spell into that somehow, that's still another buff that could have been cast on the Full BAB character (or a spell slot saved, at the least).

I'm not sure if it's applicable to the discussion (since it's, you know, a wizard and not a monk), but take FrankTrollman's wizard grappler (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651): a poor BAB wizard who can out-grapple a dire-bear or giant octopus by level 4.

As I said: there are options.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not sure if it's applicable to the discussion (since it's, you know, a wizard and not a monk), but take FrankTrollman's wizard grappler (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651): a poor BAB wizard who can out-grapple a dire-bear or giant octopus by level 4.

As I said: there are options.

Well, no, it's not applicable, since as you said it's a Wizard. And it shouldn't surprise anybody besides maybe Giacomo that a Wizard can become supremely good at any one area he wants to focus in.

[dyslexicfaser]

I was just trying to point out that BAB isn't necessarily everything.

[Voyager_I]

Yes, but that build is nothing but spells that the Monk won't have access to and feats that any Full BAB class will.

[AtomicKitKat]

-4 to AB at level 1 is irrelevant, since about half the time, you might not even hit unless you roll a 20 anyway.:smalltongue:

Weapons which grant bonus attacks:

Eagle's Claw from Sandstorm, coupled with Eagle's Fury Feat
Slashing Flurry from PHB 2(Requires far too many Feats to acquire)
Braid Blade(Dragon magazine) Just says it adds yet another attack, with no mentioned limit.
Boot Blade(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting). Basically lets you stab opponents with a kick. Not so useful if you need to move.

Ideally, you start with an Asherati(race from Sandstorm with familiarity with Eagle's Claw weapons), pick up the TWF tree, Eagle's Fury, Snap Kick, Greater Flurry(11 levels in Monk just to get 2 attacks :smallfrown: ), and you get something like this:

Asherati Monk 11/Full BAB class 9
BAB: 8(Monk)+9(other)=17
Attacks:
Eagle's Claw 11/6/1/-4
Eagle's Claw 11/6/1
Eagle's Fury: Eagle's Claw 11
Unarmed Flurry: 11/11
Snap Kick: 11

This grants you a total of 11 attacks(at about half the AB of a full BAB class). This is before Strength modifiers. Unless you're going Ranger, that puts you even further behind(15 Dex for TWF/Fury, 17 for ITWF, 19 for GTWF) in point buy(yet another reason I prefer rolling). I'm sure there's some other stuff that I posted before that makes this better, but that's the gist of it. Haste will bump you up to 12, and if your Full BAB class is the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, you get another for 13(at yet another -2 to hit).