Marneus Calgar vs Some Guys

[Piedmon_Sama]

Okay so, Marneus Augustus Calgar is the current Chaptermaster of the Ultramarines in WH40k, bearer of the Gauntlets of Ultramar, general hard bastard. His arms, legs and one eye are all enhanced cybernetic replacements. He's centuries-old and fought in thousands of campaigns across the galaxy, even by Space Marine standards this is one hard bastard. Go read his Wikipedia bio, it's silly.

-Wears Terminator Armor. Although this makes him slow on the march, it allows him to teleport once before needing a long while to recharge. Obviously the Terminator Armor is so rediculously hard that it's virtually immune to even bolter fire, which are basically .75 mm rounds. To say nothing of PUNY LAZERZ.

-Carries an Iron Halo. Not sure if it's legal in gameplay to use Terminator Armor/Halo together, but the Iron Halo is this little metal spiky wheel thing that sticks out the top of Calgar's armor like a weather vane. It generates a forcefield against ranged attacks but doesn't help with melee.

-Bears the Gauntlets of Ultramar. These 10,000 year old sacred relics give him obscene strength---bodily, he will rip apart things like a Carnifex (which is basically a living tank) and reduce most man-sized things to a red smear. The gauntlets are innummerably-blessed and holy weapons, but probably not in the way that effects anything.

-As a Space Marine, Calgar was already huger than any human (he's about nine feet tall, ten in armor), superstrong, with reflexes beyond any trained acrobat's, endurance beyond the greatest runner's, and incredibly heightened senses. Now, of course, his bionic limbs make him even stronger than that and his bionic eye improves his eyesight even more.

Against

Because Marneus, as head of the most popular and fan-loved army in WH40k, is no doubt the most popular character of them all (koff), I thought I'd do something we used to do at other boards (where forums were specifically given over to 'versus threads' and we had to get creative to keep it interesting). Basically, Marneus will run a gauntlet. He has to proceed through a series of featureless rooms of unbreakable unobtainium, each one gymnasium-sized. The next room will only open up when Marneus defeats the occupant in the present room. Marneus has to proceed through the rooms ASAP---the Ultramarine banner is being danced on at the far end or something, so he gets no rest between these escalating series of fights.

The main question is, how far does he get?

1) Robin III/aka Tim Drake

2) Connor McCloud (Highlander)

3) Praetor Fenix, Zealot (StarCraft)

4) Major Alexander Luis Armstrong (Full Metal Alchemist)
NOTE: The Major has a special chamber with a layer of stone over the floor and walls.

5) Zeratul, Dark Templar (Starcraft)

6) Wolverine/aka James Logan (X-Men)

7) Guts (Berserk)

8) Deathstroke the Terminator/aka Slade Wilson (Teen Titans)

9) Colossus/aka Piotr Rasputin (X-Men)

10) Black Panther/aka T'Challa (Avengers)

11) Vash the Stampede

...Yeah, I was gonna put in Master Chief but I figured this was enough. >>

EDIT: Readjusted the order of fights so they go from least to most challenging. Or at least, what I think they would be (which is probably a controversial decision in of itself). Also, I added notorious outlaw Vash the Stampede as a comedy fight (but in the opposite direction).



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[onasuma]

Calgar definatly beats everyone of those of heard of, and probebly the rest to. Warhammer is in a completly different level of power to the characters you mention. For example, i bet a normal marine could probably take some of those stated without to much of a sweat. Calgar on the other hand is a Primach, one of the most powerful beings in existance.

[Selrahc]

Calgar definatly beats everyone of those of heard of, and probebly the rest to. Warhammer is in a completly different level of power to the characters you mention.

What? No it isn't. Individual characters in Warhammer are not up on the ridiculous scale with top level superheroes.



For example, i bet a normal marine could probably take some of those stated without to much of a sweat.

Probably.



Calgar on the other hand is a Primach, one of the most powerful beings in existance.

He isn't a primarch. Hes just a Space Marine who runs a chapter, and thus is really skilled and has nifty stuff.


On the topic then...

Heres the foes I think Calgar could definitely beat:
Robin
Alex Louis Armstrong
Wolverine
Connor McCloud

Alex has no stone stuff in the unobtanium room, and is much less strong physically. Wolverine isn't quite good enough to really challenge Calgar(Being as he is, more skilled, and with better superpowers). Robin and Connor just don't strike me as anywhere near good enough.

Here are the foes that would be a sore challenge, but he could maybe win:
Fenix
Deathstroke
Zeratul
Black Panther

All very good matchups for him.

And here are the ones I think he would lose to in a fair fight:
Colossus
Guts(Assuming he has the armour of the berserk)

Colossus is just a league ahead of him in damage dealing and resilience.
Guts in the armour of the Berserk is too fast for him. As well as having higher physical power, and almost equal skill.

So uh he'd probably get to Colossus, or stumble at Fenix. Wolvie might stand a chance with Calgar weakened from the first four fights.

[Zenos]

On the topic of popularity, I prefer the two C's of the IG, Gaunt and Yarrick.

Anyways, Calgar would beat most of these, he is a veteran space marine commander. Sure, he might not be a primarch but he is still stupidly strong.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Alex has no stone stuff in the unobtanium room, and is much less strong physically.

Oh hell, you're right. I unintentionally screwed over the Major. XD Okay, he gets a special chamber which still has unobtanium walls, but with a thick layer of granite placed over the floor and walls (not ceiling).

If I had spent more time thinking up this thread, there would probably be a few more komedy fights in the early rounds like 1940s Bucky or Mr. Satan...

[kamikasei]

Oh hell, you're right. I unintentionally screwed over the Major. XD Okay, he gets a special chamber which still has unobtanium walls, but with a thick layer of granite placed over the floor and walls (not ceiling).

Once he has any sort of chance to do anything at all, Armstrong wins, because while 40k is powered by badassedness Armstrong is powered by sheer awesome. And it'd be funnier if he won, so he would.

Tim Drake, much as I love the guy, is screwed. He's a competent fighter but not equipped to take on a giant power-armoured meta in an empty room with no way to set the battlefield. I don't know about the #2 guy, so I can't say whether he'd beat the target before he reaches his inevitable, hilarious, shirtless doom.

[Poison_Fish]

Am I the only one who see's the contest between Armstrong and Calgar not being a fight, but a muscle contest?

[tyckspoon]

Am I the only one who see's the contest between Armstrong and Calgar not being a fight, but a muscle contest?

While that would be endlessly entertaining, that would require Calgar to remove his armor in the presence of a potential enemy. I can't imagine that happening... and after the first two rooms, Calgar is conditioned to combat. He probably just opens fire as soon as he sights the occupant of the next room.


I believe my colleagues the honorable Previous Posters are either severely overestimating Colossus's strength and durability or significantly underestimating the durability and damage potential of Terminator armor and the Gauntlets. Colossus can be battered around by powerful mundane forces- a building collapsing on top of him won't kill him, but it will knock him off his feet if he isn't prepared to try and hold it up instead. The strength-enhancing energy-fielded powerfists of the Gauntlets will be able to rip his arms off. (In 40k terms, I'd probably put him at Toughness 5 or 6 with a good Armor Save.. which is ignored by power weapons and easily wounded by Str 8, which is the standard for a power-fisted Marine.) Similarly, although Collosus is powerful Terminator armor can survive being shot up by sci-fi antitank weaponry. If Calgar and Colossus just trade punches (C-c-c-cross counter!!), Calgar is going to come out on top.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, seeing that you can get stepped on by a rogue Titan in Terminator Armour (read of that in a shortstory as part of an article about Terminator Armour, so it's maybe the power of fluff), and still suffer nothing but a few cracks in the armor and a few bruises (a Titan is a warmachine, tall as most modern skyscrapers...) I think very few of the contestants would even manage to penetrate his armour.

By the way, am I the only one who is reminded of the Monthy Python scene with the Black Knight and King Arthur? Calgar lost all four friggin' limbs, but, hey, he's a space marine. Anything mor than the complete destruction means he's ready to kick butt. And, the Wikipedia entry is a fun read, it is!

[puppyavenger]

Some ideas for other members of the gauntlet to fight him
Jess Tablyn, in a room with a millimetre of water covering the floor (Saga of seven suns)
Benidict with a power weopon(Chronicles of Amber)
Cthulu
Galactus
Movie Saurons physicl form
Tzeetch

[TheOtherMC]

How does Colossus or the others hold up against acid? Yeah cuz' Calgar, the dude spits the stuff.

[thorgrim29]

As much as I like Guts, he'll probably lose, unless Galgar is severely wounded by the time he gets to him. He's fast, resistant and stupidly strong, but galgar is all that to the power of power creep.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Well, seeing that you can get stepped on by a rogue Titan in Terminator Armour (read of that in a shortstory as part of an article about Terminator Armour, so it's maybe the power of fluff), and still suffer nothing but a few cracks in the armor and a few bruises (a Titan is a warmachine, tall as most modern skyscrapers...) I think very few of the contestants would even manage to penetrate his armour.

If a suit of Terminator armor cracked under the strain of being stepped on by a tower-sized giant, then that proves Colossus's hide is tougher. >>

[Krytha]

But what happens when you throw a jedi into the mix?

[Piedmon_Sama]

Oh please, that would be silly.

[Selrahc]

I believe my colleagues the honorable Previous Posters are either severely overestimating Colossus's strength and durability or significantly underestimating the durability and damage potential of Terminator armor and the Gauntlets.

Heres the deal: Comics are stupid overpowered against non comic foes.

People saying that Marneus Calgars armour and damage dealing potential are close to Colossus's are wrong.

Colossus has a carrying capacity well in excess of 100 tonnes. This means he can juggle tanks. It means hes a lot stronger than a carnifex, or a dreadnaught, or a Wraithlord. He could in fact, lift all of those beings up in one hand, without exerting himself.

If he isn't holding back then, he is punching with far more force than being hit square in the face by a carnifex.

At the same time, he is fighting foes of the same levels of power. He has fought Juggernaught for a solid week! Imagine, someone with more power than a Carnifex punching slamming and otherwise attempting to defeat you for 168 hours.

A point blank shot from a tanks main battle cannon will leave him entirely unharmed. A giant mech could stand on him, and he wouldn't be cracked in a dozen places, venting energy, and barely standing.

That is a level of durability far beyond terminator armour. Combined with a level of offensive ability far beyond a powerfist.

That is why I consider Colossus to be on a level above Marneus. Unless Calgar is able to punch him for weeks on end, while dodging every blow in return, then he has lost.


Now, as for why Panther would be a good foe
Firstly, they have similar levels of skill and tactical prowess. Thats a rare thing for foes of the Black Panther, and an equally rare thing for Calgar.

Panther is much more acrobatic, and has similar levels of reflexes.
Panther is wearing a vibranium battle suit. This nullifies physical impacts to nearly nothing. It prevents damage from energy too. Now, it only takes blows down, so he'll still feel it, but Calgar won't be taking him down with a single blow.
And he can hurt Calgar in return. He has energy daggers, which ignore physical barriers. With these he is incredibly skilled at disabling opponents.

So yeah, thats why the comic characters can give Calgar a run for his money.

[Eita]

Some ideas for other members of the gauntlet to fight him
Jess Tablyn, in a room with a millimetre of water covering the floor (Saga of seven suns)
Benidict with a power weopon(Chronicles of Amber)
Cthulu
Galactus
Movie Saurons physicl form
Tzeetch

A lot of those are just plain silly.

Anyways, the Terminator wasn't limping. He was walking away and the cracks weren't that bad.

Also, Calgar also gets two storm-bolters built in to the Gauntlets. Imagine a never-ending rain of exploding bullets.

[Selrahc]

Anyways, the Terminator wasn't limping. He was walking away and the cracks weren't that bad.

Really? Can you quote that for me?

It has been a while since I last read it, but I remember it being pretty bad.

[Eita]

I actually can't. That statement comes from what people have said of it, so, I don't know.

[Selrahc]

I actually can't. That statement comes from what people have said of it, so, I don't know.

Well I read it in the Space Wolf codex. Which I don't have any more.

The sitation as I remember it, was that the Terminator was not able to move fast enough to get out of a house, when a titan stepped on it. The other Space Wolves present were sure that he would be dead, but when the titans foot raised from the building, the Wolf Guard stood up in the ruins. He was obviously massively the worse for wear, with giant cracks running through his armour and energy venting from the power pack. The other Space Wolves are somewhat awestruck, but the Wolfguard spits out some blood, and says something along the lines of "What are you staring at? We have traitors to kill."

That is as full a recollection as I have of it. In my knowledge of the scene, the armour is very badly damaged, and the space marine is wounded, but the marine is able to grit his teeth and keep fighting. A really impressive feat, but still not up on a level with Colossus.

[Eita]

You forget that he's Marenus Calgar and apparently has an Iron Halo (which is against the rules, but that's most likely for the sake of game balance).

The Iron Halo would probably overload if a Titan were to step on it, ruining the Halo but leaving the armor to not be so damaged. Add in the awesomesauce that the GW writers poured on the basic concept of Calgar and you've got a man who can kill you with his head chopped off.

[Gorbash]

2) Connor McCloud (Highlander)

Jesus Christ, did you even watch the movie? It's Connor MacLeod, not McCloud!!!

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd say Zeratul, Colossus, Guts in berserker, and Deathstroke win. Two are brutally strong, another one is able to defeat a fighter way better than Black Panther (Batman!) without too much work, and Zeratul will just demolish him with his tremendous warp blade and invisibility.

Also, I've got three new foes for Calgar. Terminators! I'd say all three movie models appear, the 850, the 1000, and the X. The 850 is armed with a Shotgun, a Gauss gun, and a tank gun. Oh, and a heavy machinegun.

[Mr._Blinky]

See, Calgar has one fatal weakness that all heroes in 40K suffer from, though it does not effect them in the game rules and never seem to worry them in the fluff.

He's not wearing a helmet.

BOOM, HEADSHOT!

That said, I don't think he'd make it, mostly because of Colossus. He'd beat the first few contestants, but after a certain point he's facing enemies even more ridiculous than he is, which is never a good sign if you're from 40K.

However, unlike what some people think, I'm not convinced Zeratul would win. Zeratul relies too much on stealth, and given all of the ridiculous stuff marines come standard with, including infrared vision, I'm not completely convinced that Zeratul could use his cloak effectively. On the other hand, I'm not totally convinced it wouldn't either, and if Zeratul can get close he could probably dodge those sluggish powerfists quick enough to land a sword blow. If he can, I'm pretty sure he wins.

Wolverine can just regenerate from practically nothing and his bones are indestructible, so I'd give him even odds. And before people complain about how cheesy Wolverine's regeneration is, remember who he's fighting. And considering that Wolverine still manages to fight foes tougher and stronger than Marney, I'd give him about even chances. He could probably survive the hail of bolter shells (albeit very painfully) long enough to close to CQC, and if he can, those powerfists are rather slow. Even in the hands of someone like Marney, I could see them being to slow to counter before Wolverine just jumps up and punches him in his unhelmeted face. I don't think even a Space Marine could withstand three adamantium blades to the brain.

I think it'd really make more sense to use slightly weaker opponents, and put them all in gymnasium sized rooms suited to their combat style. Zeratul with lots of cover, Wolverine in a jungle-gym style room, etc.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Jesus Christ, did you even watch the movie? It's Connor MacLeod, not McCloud!!!

Oh no, next you're gonna be all "Scotch Pryd!!11" and we don't even need to go there. >>

[Mr._Blinky]

On the subject of petty details, in the original post it is stated that bolters shoot .75 mm rounds. That is tiny. I must therefore assume that you meant .75 caliber, since .75 mm is tinier than any bullet currently in existence, and 75 mm is close to the size used for tank shells. Remember folks, caliber and millimeter measurements are two completely different things in relation to firearms. The former is measured in inches, the latter in metric.

But either way, I think he'd be able to bludgeon his way through most of them, but some are even more powerful than he is, even assuming that the ones before haven't injured him any.

[Eita]

Do you know why you're not allowed to combine Terminator Armor and an Iron Halo? Because, invulnerable saves were never meant to stack. Ever. I imagine that you'd subtract the two, giving him either a 1 or 2 save (ridiculously good). This translates into anyone stronger then him having a really hard time hurting him.

[Mr._Blinky]

Do you know why you're not allowed to combine Terminator Armor and an Iron Halo? Because, invulnerable saves were never meant to stack. Ever. I imagine that you'd subtract the two, giving him either a 1 or 2 save (ridiculously good). This translates into anyone stronger then him having a really hard time hurting him.

Actually, about that, I just checked, and he can not have both Terminator Armour and and Iron Halo. His choices are Terminator Armour or an Iron Halo and Artificer Armor. Not both.

[Eita]

Did you read? I said "Do you know why he can't have Terminator Armor and an Iron Halo".

And as I said, that's for the sake of gamebalance.

[loopy]

On the topic of popularity, I prefer the two C's of the IG, Gaunt and Yarrick.

You forgot to mention that Ultramarines are rules-bound pansies.


...IMO.

*runs off*

[Mr._Blinky]

Did you read? I said "Do you know why he can't have Terminator Armor and an Iron Halo".

And as I said, that's for the sake of gamebalance.

No, I read. You had the idea that while normally you can't give a guy both, since he has them both it would just make the Invuls better as a kind of stacking. I stated that it is moot, because he can't have both. Unless you were saying that that is exactly why he can't have two, in which case your post was unclear.

[Selrahc]

Deathstroke win. ... able to defeat a fighter way better than Black Panther (Batman!) without too much work

Panther is a tougher foe than Bats. Seriously.

Panther is a clone of Batman, who has even better gear. Batman has no edges on him. Not in stealth. Damage dealing. Defence. Skill. Tactical planning. Wealth. Technology. Gadgets...

A Black Panther versus Batman match up should by any reasonable writer end up with a Panther victory.



Wolverine can just regenerate from practically nothing

Over time. That famous shot from the civil war? Didn't happen like it was implied to happen.

Wolverine was not reduced to just a skeleton. All of his major internal organs were intact. He did not regenerate in a few minutes, it took him over a dozen hours. Why didn't Nitro get away? Because after Nitro lets off one of his mega explosions, he passes out.


And considering that Wolverine still manages to fight foes tougher and stronger than Marney,

Except he has one important advantage. Skill. Generally Wolverine is the most skilled, or the most powerful, but if he has neither of those advantages then he is in bad shape. Marneus Calgar is more skilled, and more powerful.

[Project_Mayhem]

All I can say is I would pay to see Connor get creamed by a Space Marine

[Azerian Kelimon]

Panther is a tougher foe than Bats. Seriously.

Panther is a clone of Batman, who has even better gear. Batman has no edges on him. Not in stealth. Damage dealing. Defence. Skill. Tactical planning. Wealth. Technology. Gadgets...

A Black Panther versus Batman match up should by any reasonable writer end up with a Panther victory.



We're talking about THE batman, right? The guy who took down superman. The guy who got his back torn in half and came back. The guy who is the only person that has a plan when he is attacked by Abe Lincoln with a Tommygun while dancing Tarantela.

Nah. If Panther could win against Batman, it'd have no trouble with the Taskmaster, which is not the case.

[puppyavenger]

We're talking about THE batman, right? The guy who took down superman. The guy who got his back torn in half and came back. The guy who is the only person that has a plan when he is attacked by Abe Lincoln with a Tommygun while dancing Tarantela.
.

please explain how he did this without Supernatural help(plot)

[Piedmon_Sama]

His back was broken, not torn in half. >_>

He came back by getting some David Carradine-style phys therapy from Richard Dragon.

[kamikasei]

please explain how he did this without Supernatural help(plot)

Bane broke his back. Over the course of a year, he healed, trained back up, and returned. He didn't get torn in half or anything like that.

[Selrahc]

We're talking about THE batman, right? The guy who took down superman. The guy who got his back torn in half and came back. The guy who is the only person that has a plan when he is attacked by Abe Lincoln with a Tommygun while dancing Tarantela.

Nah. If Panther could win against Batman, it'd have no trouble with the Taskmaster, which is not the case.

Panther had no trouble against the Silver Surfer. Or the X Men. Or Thing.

Certainly he has had his off days, but the same applies to Batman. For example, if Batman is so good why does he have any trouble from Bane? Or the Joker?

If someone is supposed to be a credible foe in the comic that is being written, then they will be a credible foe. If on the other hand, it is just a comic of the hero pwning then foes can be defeated easily. Thats why Batman was so easily able to defeat Bullseye when there was a crossover comic.


They are both written however, as being incredibly skilled and stealthy tactical geniuses, with plans in place for almost every eventuality. In addition to this Panther has better gear and technology backing him up. As well as some superhuman abilities. Panther should win*.

*In fact they're both so damned analytical that most situations where they would fight(misunderstanding, oposing goals, forced to by supervillain) could be averted, and a mighty team up would ensue.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I agree Panther has an edge in tech and resources---after all, he leads a space-age futuristic utopia, whereas Bruce Wayne controls a billion-dollar company. And in outright combat, he probably has an advantage, since he's at peak human proficiency wheras Batman is merely heavily skilled and should be out of his physical prime by now (he's late 30s at least, I think).

But in terms of sheer intelligence? I'd have to read Priest's Black Panther series to see T'Challa at his best, but I've never seen Panther do anything as clever as Batman taking down the entire Justice League or having anything like Batman's labrynthine network of contacts, moles and surveillance in the superhero community. (One good reason for that, admittedly, would be that unlike DC Marvel doesn't have a superhero community.)

[Eita]

No, I read. You had the idea that while normally you can't give a guy both, since he has them both it would just make the Invuls better as a kind of stacking. I stated that it is moot, because he can't have both. Unless you were saying that that is exactly why he can't have two, in which case your post was unclear.

And the reason he can't have both is game balance. A 1 or 2 invulnerable save would be nigh impossible to win against.

[Selrahc]

But in terms of sheer intelligence? I'd have to read Priest's Black Panther series to see T'Challa at his best, but I've never seen Panther do anything as clever as Batman taking down the entire Justice League or having anything like Batman's labrynthine network of contacts, moles and surveillance in the superhero community. (One good reason for that, admittedly, would be that unlike DC Marvel doesn't have a superhero community.)

It was Ra's Al Ghul taking down the entire Justice League wasn't it?

And its not exactly the most noteworthy thing to be able to devise plans to target the known weaknesses of people who trust you implicitly.

Panther has an awful lot of contingency plans bubbling around. (An example from recent comics, being his ability to defeat Galactus with one of apparently multiple preprepared plans).

Similarly, there is as you said, no real superhero community in Marvel, but he does keep him self incredibly well informed about stuff. In the recent Fantastic Four issues hes been able to rattle of information and weaknesses of obscure Fantastic Four villains, who he has never personally encountered, and who the Fantastic Four only saw once before that, many years ago. And he had strategies prepared to fight them!

Obviously then, given his access to the Avengers computer, the resources of Wakanda, and the files of the Fantastic Four, he can prepare for most foes he is likely to face.

Aside from that hes a battlefield tactician with the best of them (As he shows when thrown up against new foes like the Zombie Galactus's). All this as well as being a statesman of consumate skill.

I do think then, that he matches up quite well against Batman in intelligence. Batman has better deductive reasoning(Being as he is, the worlds greatest detective), but the two are of similar tactical prowess, and T'Challa is significantly ahead of Bats as a scientist(Being able to hang out with Reed Richards in the big brain leagues).

[Piedmon_Sama]

It was Ra's Al Ghul taking down the entire Justice League wasn't it?

And its not exactly the most noteworthy thing to be able to devise plans to target the known weaknesses of people who trust you implicitly.

Panther has an awful lot of contingency plans bubbling around. (An example from recent comics, being his ability to defeat Galactus with one of apparently multiple preprepared plans).

Similarly, there is as you said, no real superhero community in Marvel, but he does keep him self incredibly well informed about stuff. In the recent Fantastic Four issues hes been able to rattle of information and weaknesses of obscure Fantastic Four villains, who he has never personally encountered, and who the Fantastic Four only saw once before that, many years ago. And he had strategies prepared to fight them!

Obviously then, given his access to the Avengers computer, the resources of Wakanda, and the files of the Fantastic Four, he can prepare for most foes he is likely to face.

Aside from that hes a battlefield tactician with the best of them (As he shows when thrown up against new foes like the Zombie Galactus's). All this as well as being a statesman of consumate skill.

I do think then, that he matches up quite well against Batman in intelligence. Batman has better deductive reasoning(Being as he is, the worlds greatest detective), but the two are of similar tactical prowess, and T'Challa is significantly ahead of Bats as a scientist(Being able to hang out with Reed Richards in the big brain leagues).

Yeah, it was Ra's, but he was cribbing from Wayne's notes. >>

So Batman and Panther have it in common, that they're ready for anything that's in their massive respective data bases. I guess it's fair to say they're both so smart there's not much point in figuring out who's "smarter," they'll both be as smart as the writer can make them. T'Challa has more experience in leadership and diplomacy, as the monarch of a country, and Wayne is more deductive and analytical as an experienced crime-solver.

[Kraggi]

This thread begs the question of "How many five year olds could Marneus Calgar take down?"

I believe that at some point in the billions he would drown in their bodies.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I think at some point he's just going to get sick of it all and retire to a quiet fortress-monastery somewhere and write his memoirs. >>

[kamikasei]

I think at some point he's just going to get sick of it all and retire to a quiet fortress-monastery somewhere and write his memoirs. >>

It's not like he'll have a shortage of parchment. Or red ink, for that matter.

[Eita]

This thread begs the question of "How many five year olds could Marneus Calgar take down?"

I believe that at some point in the billions he would drown in their bodies.

One of two things would happen.

(1) He calls down an Exterminatus.
(2) He enters hibernation.

[Thangorodrim]

Panther is much more acrobatic, and has similar levels of reflexes.
Panther is wearing a vibranium battle suit. This nullifies physical impacts to nearly nothing. It prevents damage from energy too. Now, it only takes blows down, so he'll still feel it, but Calgar won't be taking him down with a single blow.

Calgars power gauntlets generate a matter disrupting powerfield, which combined with the enhanced exoskeletal machinery, lets him rip tanks apart.

So I doubt Panther is going to survive even a single blow.

Concerning the Terminator example, in one version it's a Night Gaunt (stripped down Warlord titan) in the other its a Warhound (400 tons)

[Eita]

And here I swore it was an Imperator....

[Selrahc]

Calgars power gauntlets generate a matter disrupting powerfield, which combined with the enhanced exoskeletal machinery, lets him rip tanks apart.

Vibranium is a future tech material with wierd properties. The Panthers suit is cutting edge vibranium technology, designed by a high tech future utopia with incredible scientific prowess.

It absorbs energy of all types. Which means the powerfield is not doing much damage. It also absorbs physical damage, which means the enhanced strength of Calgar is nearly useless. This is a costume equivalent to Captain Americas shield. The user gets some damage, but a tiny percentage.

Panther can take hits from people who are capable of dealing much much more damage than Calgar in powerfists. Your average superstrong hero is packing more musclepower than a carnifex, and Panther has taken hits from people like Thing. Ripping tanks apart is nothing.

You beat the costume by finesse attacks along the grain of the material. You don't do it by pummeling it with a big hand.

Oh yeah, and his claws are superbad news for Calgar. Vibranium of a different sort is used, which utterly annihilates metal at a molecular level, no matter how invulnerable it is. Which means the terminator armours adamantium plating will be useless.

Essentially, Panther is wielding a warscythe. And has a 3+ invulnerable save that renders him immune to instant death.


So I doubt Panther is going to survive even a single blow.

Yes he is.

Cause superheroes are crazy.

[turkishproverb]

How does Colossus or the others hold up against acid? Yeah cuz' Calgar, the dude spits the stuff.

Love the avi!.


But yea, the acid spitting is annoying, but hardly the biggest threat from the guy.

And colossus would probably be fine against that. Heck, Robin would even be able to avoid the spit acid thing once he knew about it.

[Eita]

Why exactly are super-heroes so crazy? I mean, really, the artists have to draw the guys, which is usually why novels and such are the strongest.

[Selrahc]

Why exactly are super-heroes so crazy? I mean, really, the artists have to draw the guys, which is usually why novels and such are the strongest.

Because it is a shared universe with multiple writers, and interaction between dozens of characters.

Unless you specifically try to stop it happening on an editorial level, power creep occurs.

For instance, Hulk is really strong. So is the Thing. Therefore, they fight each other when there is a crossover comic. However, in his own comic the Hulk is doing way more powerful feats of strength than Thing, but Thing must be pretty close to Hulk, or the fights would be over in a second! So the power level of the Thing goes up to meet the Hulk. The same thing happens to every foe who is a credible enemy for the Thing. And because heroes have a shared library of villains, maybe it happens for a bunch of other heroes too. Then a new writer comes along for Hulk, hes seen whats come before, and what he has planned is just a little more powerful. So now the Hulk does something thats beyond his previous level of power, which drags up the strength level of everyone else.

In their initial appearances, the Hulk and the Thing had a strength level of around ten tonnes. That snowballed fairly heavily.

Similarly Superman went from merely jumping high, and being injured by bullets, to flying at the speed of light, and being invulnerable to everything.

Wolverine is another example of the power creep in comics.

Marvel had less writers in the early days, and a general lower power level, so it didn't suffer as much. DC suffered so much from power creep, that it had to reboot the universe just so it could make actual stories.

[Thangorodrim]

Vibranium is a future tech material with wierd properties. The Panthers suit is cutting edge vibranium technology, designed by a high tech future utopia with incredible scientific prowess.

Kinda meaningless, I could type exactly the same thing about the Imperium. (apart from the utopia bit ;) )


It absorbs energy of all types. Which means the powerfield is not doing much damage.

Powerfields are kind of a cheat, energy absorbing armour materials exist in the Imperium, they don't help at all, you either need another energy field or sufficient mass.


It also absorbs physical damage, which means the enhanced strength of Calgar is nearly useless.

You covered that with "all types of energy". And you don't simply have to bash someone, unless this suit is some sort of exo-skeletal carapace, Calgar could manipulate the Panther through the suit, unless whenever something touches the Panther it simply drops to the floor drained of all kinetic and potential energy (physics mangling ahoy) then you can twist Panthers head off, fold his arms backwards etc.


and Panther has taken hits from people like Thing. Ripping tanks apart is nothing.


By the sounds of it his suit works very well against impacts, but it doesn't appear to do the same thing if someone just slowly pulls T'challas arms off, or uses him as a club, or slowly crushes him.



You beat the costume by finesse attacks along the grain of the material. You don't do it by pummeling it with a big hand.

Is momentum conserved in the strikes T'challa takes while in this suit ?

i.e. does he get bashed backwards, but survives, or does he just take the his, as if he were superman ?



Oh yeah, and his claws are superbad news for Calgar. Vibranium of a different sort is used, which utterly annihilates metal at a molecular level, no matter how invulnerable it is. Which means the terminator armours adamantium plating will be useless.

Unless his claws are Wolverine sized, I doubt he's going to be doing a vast amount of damage with each swipe! Again, Calgar just has to get in a position to apply some torsion.



Essentially, Panther is wielding a warscythe. And has a 3+ invulnerable save that renders him immune to instant death.

Actually more like a really short set of power blades, Warscythes cut through energy fields, cut tank barrels off, psychic fields etc. tiny claws...not so hot for that sort of thing.

I do like the idea some else mentioned, the acid spitting, Calgar blasts T'chall about a bit with his bolters, grabs him by either arm and drools acid onto his face :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:

[Selrahc]

Powerfields are kind of a cheat, energy absorbing armour materials exist in the Imperium, they don't help at all, you either need another energy field or sufficient mass.

Uh... most energy absorbing materials have a fairly low limit. Ceramite is energy absorbing, but it only works a little bit. So little that it isn't represented in the game at all(Because otherwise Space Marines would at least have a 6+ inv. save against melta weapons).

What material are you thinking of?

This suit is effectively Captain Americas shield, except covering an entire body.



i.e. does he get bashed backwards, but survives, or does he just take the his, as if he were superman ?



unless whenever something touches the Panther it simply drops to the floor drained of all kinetic and potential energy

The second quote describes what would happen.



Unless his claws are Wolverine sized, I doubt he's going to be doing a vast amount of damage with each swipe! Again, Calgar just has to get in a position to apply some torsion.

They aren't very long, but what they are is *made of anti metal*. Entire blocks of metal disintegrate.

The vibranium hits the metal, there is a period of intense vibration, and then large areas of the metal liquify.

Even though the armour is made of ridiculously strong metals, it doesn't matter. In fact that just means that the vibration becomes exceptionally intense.

Calgar isn't going to be positioning Panther, since the two are very similar in skills, Panther has the edge in battlefcield tactics, and there is no way Calgar is going to position him when Panther is jumping around like a Harlequin.


Essentially, Calgars battle plan against Panther is "Don't get hit, or I'll lose large parts of my armour. Get lucky blows in, repeatedly, because there is nothing I can do to cause major damage".

Honestly, his best chance is to throw away the power gloves, and termionator armour, and turn it into a melee brawl. The two items slow him down, and don't help him at all. Wheras if he has his hands free, he can attempt to do precision blows between the weave. Because right now, all he has is blunt force, which doesn't work.

[Thangorodrim]

Uh... most energy absorbing materials have a fairly low limit. Ceramite is energy absorbing, but it only works a little bit. So little that it isn't represented in the game at all(Because otherwise Space Marines would at least have a 6+ inv. save against melta weapons).

When you get down to it, everything is energy absorbing, the ceramite portion of astartes power armour is also an ablative layer.

Inquisitor states BTW that marine power armour is actually optimised against thermal energy weaponry, but this isn't reflected in 40k rules is it ?

Define for me the limits of Black panthers armour if you want to talk about energy requirements, getting punched around and getting hit by a multi-megawatt energy field are two different things.


The second quote describes what would happen.

What, if he gets hit by the Thing he simply doesn't move, like a normal human thumping superman, that sort of stuff ?

Cars drop on him and he's unhurt, buried under rubble and so forth ?


They aren't very long, but what they are is *made of anti metal*. Entire blocks of metal disintegrate.

Show me, or provide an example.



The vibranium hits the metal, there is a period of intense vibration, and then large areas of the metal liquify.


Is he holding his hand to the target or something ? Ceramite BTW isn't a metal, it has ductile properties, but is some form of advanced composite/material.


Even though the armour is made of ridiculously strong metals, it doesn't matter. In fact that just means that the vibration becomes exceptionally intense.

How long is he supposed to be holding his hands on Calgars leg here ?



Calgar isn't going to be positioning Panther, since the two are very similar in skills,

What ?


Panther has the edge in battlefcield tactics,

Since when ?


and there is no way Calgar is going to position him when Panther is jumping around like a Harlequin.


T'challas suit doesn't appear to have a face mask, Calgar has two large explosive weapons, is also superhuman, has longer reach than T'challa and space is limited in this OP,



Essentially, Calgars battle plan against Panther is "Don't get hit, or I'll lose large parts of my armour. Get lucky blows in, repeatedly, because there is nothing I can do to cause major damage".

I'm reserving judgement on this until I've got more information,


Wheras if he has his hands free, he can attempt to do precision blows between the weave. Because right now, all he has is blunt force, which doesn't work.

Obviously not the case, since T'challa can physically move in this suit, Calgar can manipulate him.

[Illiterate Scribe]

At this point, may I interject that making your claws out of antimatter is a Very Bad Idea.

Also, Thandorodim - Spacemarines wear normal power armour (AV 10), with 5 points of ablative ceramite (+1d6 vs. thermal) stuff.

That means that its effectiveness against fire is at most a 40% protective improvement.

[kamikasei]

At this point, may I interject that making your claws out of antimatter is a Very Bad Idea.

I can't imagine Panther's claws are literally antimatter, not least because the notion of "anti-metal" is incoherent; you can't have "anti-metal", just "anti-<specific metal>".

[Thangorodrim]

At this point, may I interject that making your claws out of antimatter is a Very Bad Idea.

Well, google indicates it isn't anti-matter, "anti-metal" is a name given to a specific form of the metal to distinguish it from some other form of vibranium. I doubt he carries multi-megaton warheads around on his hands for close combat.


Also, Thandorodim - Spacemarines wear normal power armour (AV 10), with 5 points of ablative ceramite (+1d6 vs. thermal) stuff.

That means that its effectiveness against fire is at most a 40% protective improvement.

I'm aware of the details, I did mention it after all!

And gosh, only 40% you say, why thats totally unremarkable :smallwink:


Googling also indicated that bullets are specifically robbed of their momentum when hitting the armour, which does rather beg the question where does it go, since momentum must be conserved.

I also found a hilarious reference to a creature of living sound called Klaw.

[Emrylon]

Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves is way cooler than Calgar!

...even if he is costs way to more points to field than he is worth...grumblegrumble

[Zenos]

At this point, may I interject that making your claws out of antimatter is a Very Bad Idea.

Also, Thandorodim - Spacemarines wear normal power armour (AV 10), with 5 points of ablative ceramite (+1d6 vs. thermal) stuff.

That means that its effectiveness against fire is at most a 40% protective improvement.

What about carapace armour and flak armour?

[Illiterate Scribe]

What about carapace armour and flak armour?

AV6, AV3, respectively.

[Piedmon_Sama]

T'challas suit doesn't appear to have a face mask, Calgar has two large explosive weapons, is also superhuman, has longer reach than T'challa and space is limited in this OP,

T'challa's suit has a fully encompassing facemask. It's Calgar who goes around bare-headed. o_O



Obviously not the case, since T'challa can physically move in this suit, Calgar can manipulate him.

T'Challa's wargear includes boots that let him jump dozens of feet into the air and run up walls. He may not be superhuman, but he's at the peak of human performance in every respect---strength, agility, endurance, etc.---and he's trained in advanced Wakandan kung fu. It allows him to judo-throw Wolverine from a flying charge; Wolverine has been shown to lunge and strike faster than the human eye can track.

Real world physics in comics get their ass kicked like Tajiri in a wrestling ring. Vibranium and Adamantium are both physically impossible. AFAIK, the 70's explanation that Adamantium is the world's mightiest alloy because it's "SUPAR DENSE!!1" is still canon. XD

[Zenos]

T'challa's suit has a fully encompassing facemask. It's Calgar who goes around bare-headed. o_O




T'Challa's wargear includes boots that let him jump dozens of feet into the air and run up walls. He may not be superhuman, but he's at the peak of human performance in every respect---strength, agility, endurance, etc.---and he's trained in advanced Wakandan kung fu. It allows him to judo-throw Wolverine from a flying charge; Wolverine has been shown to lunge and strike faster than the human eye can track.

Real world physics in comics get their ass kicked like Tajiri in a wrestling ring. Vibranium and Adamantium are both physically impossible. AFAIK, the 70's explanation that Adamantium is the world's mightiest alloy because it's "SUPAR DENSE!!1" is still canon. XD

He's got a helmet, you know.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I assumed he genuinely didn't because he, you know, spits acid. XD

[Zenos]

That's for when he has lost his other weapons.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I can see why.

"Glorious Chaptermaster, have you finished your foe? The field awaits!"

"Er, yes Brother Jarthis... *burp*...." *wipes greenish vomit off his chin* "....but in the meantime, might I trouble the honored brother for a wipe?"

[LBO]

I can see why.

"Glorious Chaptermaster, have you finished your foe? The field awaits!"

"Er, yes Brother Jarthis... *burp*...." *wipes greenish vomit off his chin* "....but in the meantime, might I trouble the honored brother for a wipe?"
Yeah... that's something that's always kind of troubled me. What happens when people in Terminator armour sneeze? They can't reach their faces to wipe it off... and I assume even Imperial tech wouldn't have something as amazingly redundant as a sneeze-wiper in a helmet... maybe their enhanced biology stops them sneezing, but MAYBE NOT... ack...

[Zenos]

Yeah... that's something that's always kind of troubled me. What happens when people in Terminator armour sneeze? They can't reach their faces to wipe it off... and I assume even Imperial tech wouldn't have something as amazingly redundant as a sneeze-wiper in a helmet... maybe their enhanced biology stops them sneezing, but MAYBE NOT... ack...

Well, I guess it would be what happens if you sneeze inside a jet fighter pilot's helmet.

[LordVader]

Hmmm. Interesting.

First off, not getting into the technical details of equipment (which I tend to suck at) let's look at the relative skill levels of the Black Panther and Marneus Calgar.

Marneus Calgar, has, I believe, spent ~300 years (at a minimum!) fighting the enemies of humanity, and a large portion of that as a Captain/Master.

I don't know how much experience the Black Panther has, but it's going to be hard to top that.

[Mr._Blinky]

He's got a helmet, you know.

Yes, but like all heroes in 40K he never wears it. If he doesn't wear it while fending off swarms of attacking tyranids, I doubt he'll have the foresight to wear it now.

This Exterminatus Now (http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20070803.html) comic puts it quite well.

[LordVader]

He'll have it on his person, though, and he's not an idiot. Once it becomes apparent that he WILL need a helmet because of close combat attacks the Iron Halo does not stop, he WILL put it on.

Although for the record, I could've sworn Iron Haloes stop close combat attacks too: I know Rosariuses do.

[Illiterate Scribe]

He'll have it on his person, though, and he's not an idiot. Once it becomes apparent that he WILL need a helmet because of close combat attacks the Iron Halo does not stop, he WILL put it on.

Although for the record, I could've sworn Iron Haloes stop close combat attacks too: I know Rosariuses do.

If they're based on a conversion field, which Rosarii are, then they go out to arms length, and only protect against an enemy while they're charging (closer, and they come inside the field), by =][= rules.

That said, Terminator Armour's probably so big that this wouldn't be an issue.