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Yakk
2008-02-01, 01:09 PM
Orc
Medium Humanoid (Orc)
HD 2d8+4 (20 HP)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Init: +1
AC 16; touch 11; flat-footed 15
(4 scale mail, 1 dex, 1 natural armor)
Or 18; touch 11; flat-footed 17
(4 scale mail, 2 shield, 1 dex, 1 natural armor)
Or 15; touch 11; flat-footed 14
(3 studded leather, 1 dex, 1 natural armor)
BAB +2; Grp +6
Attack Standard attack Greataxe +6 1d12+6 20x3 critical
Or Standard attack Battleaxe +6 1d8+4 20x3 critical
Or Standard attack Strength Composite Longbow +3 1d8+4 20x2 critical ranged, Battleaxe (no shield) melee
Full-Attack Greataxe +6 1d12+6 20x3 critical, and Armor Spikes +4 1d6+2 20x2 critical
Or Battleaxe +6 1d8+4 20x3 critical, and Spiked Shield +4 1d6+2, 20x2 critical
Or Strength Composite Longbow +4 1d8+4, 20x2 critical ranged, Battleaxe (no shield) melee
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Orcish War Training, Scent, Low-light vision, Light sensitivity
Saves Fort +5 Ref +1 Will +0
Abilities Str 19(+4) Dex 12(+1) Con 15(+2) Int 8(-1) Wis 10(+0) Cha 5(-3)
(Modifiers: +8 Str +2 Dex +4 Con -2 Int -6 Cha)
Skills: Intimidate 2+4, Spot 1+0, Listen 2+0
Feats: Endurance, Power attack (or Altertness and Track for Hunters)
Environment: Any wilderness
Organization: Scout (1), Patrol (2-4), Squad (3-8), Company (10-100), Horde (100+), Nest (1/3 slaves, 1/3 non-combatants, numbers vary). Squads, Companies and Hordes usually have higher-level orcs or other creatures commanding them.
Challenge Rating 2
Treasure Equipment plus Half standard
Alignment: Usually evil
Advancement by character class or HD; Favored Class: Fighter (tame), Barbarian (wild)
Level Adjustment +2

Orc
The Orc is a creature bred for combat, rumored from elven stock, by an evil wizard. They bear little resemblance to their original stock however, and orcs exist in the wild over many areas of wilderness. Orcs have reddish eyes, scarred skin in a variety of earth tones, and are quite hairy. An adult orc is a little over 6 feet tall, and wieghts between 200 and 250 pounds. The two sexes are equal in size.

Orcish forces speak individual related dialects. Barring minor issues, a speaker of any one Orcish dialect can communicate.

The stats of the above orc is the warrior.

Hunters have 2 more int, 2 less con (2 less HP, 1 less fortitude), use bows and a single axe, and wear studded leather. They have 5 survival skill, and have the track feat instead of endurance. Not all bow users are Hunters.

Crafters are mostly non-combatants or slaves of other races. Breeders are non-combatants, and exist for both sexes.

Orcish reproduction is mostly external, and uses pits in which a brood of 20 Orclings are deposited, with 1d6 typically emerge alive.

Combat:
Orcs are proficient with all simple weapons and with 1 or 2 martial weapons. They perfer larger weapons they can brandish and threaten with. Some orcs are archers.

Social status among orcs is determined by your ability to defeat opponents who are perceived as strong by other orcs. Orcs that hold back are usually used as stepping stones to social advancement by other orcs: most orcs are overly rash. The strongest orc will usually attack the most physically threatening opponent, with the remaining orcs either ganging up, or picking off easy victories.

Once an opponent has been downed, Orcs will often search for another challenge. This has the additional benefit that the meat will be fresher after the battle. Downed opponents who get back up will be dispatched, however.

Orcs, by default, presume they are going to win the current conflict -- after all, they have each won the last dozen or so fights to the death they had while growing up. One on one, they can defeat the typical trained members of other intelligent races, and they know it.

Orcish War Training: Orcs with the Endurance feat can move in armor as if it was 1 category lighter (but this is only for the purpose of movement). Orcs making a full attack can treat one of armor or shield spikes as a secondary natural weapon and attack at -2. They also gain full BaB from their racial HD. Weak orcs are culled out, so orc racial HD are assumed to be maximized. Finally, orcs can use their strength modifier on Intimidate checks.

Wild orcs have passed down their war training as part of their culture.

Light sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled by bright sunlight or the daylight spell, suffering a -1 on to hit, spot and search rolls.

Scent: Can detect by smell 30', 60' if wind is in favor. Presence is free, direction is move action, pinpoint within 5'.

Low-light vision: Orcs can see twice as far in dim light as normal. Strangely, moonlight does not grant orcs full vision at night, unlike other races with low-light vision.

Advancement:
Orcs can be advanced through breeding or by character class. Character class advancement works as usual.

By breeding, they gain additional Orc HD. Each Orc HD grants full BaB and strong Fortitude saves.

In addition, they gain abilities and feats as follows:
3 HD: CR 3. 33 HP, +2 strength, +2 constitution. Spot increased to 2+0. Power Attack feat (large power boost)

4 HD: CR 4, 48 HP. 4 HD bonuses, plus: +2 constitution, +2 int, +2 cha. Orc Frenzy: Can ignore ill effects (including death) of being at 0 or fewer HP with a Fortitude save of DC 10+negative HP when damaged, and at the end of each round. Failure on this save means the orc suffers the ill effects, including dieing instantly if at -10 or lower HP. Skills I/S/L 5/4/5

5 HD: CR 5, 65 HP. 5 and 6 HD bonuses, plus: +1 natural armor, +2 wis, +2 dex, +2 con. Orc Rage: Once per encounter after taking damage, can enter into a rage. Gain a +4 Rage bonus to Strength and Constitution, take a -2 Rage penalty to AC, and gain a +4 morale bonus to will saves. This lasts 2 rounds, and the Orc is not fatigued when it is over. Skills I/S/L 5/5/6

These heavier bred orcs are more likely to be evil. LA goes up by 1 for each additional HD.

Some 5 HD orcs are large in size. These "monster-orcs" gain additional benefits beyond the normal from increased size: +2 str (total of +10), +2 con (total of +6), +1 natural armor (total of +3) above and beyond a 5 HD orc.

The size increase also lowers dex by 2, reduces to-hit by 1, lowers AC by 1, and ups weapon damage to 2d6 (battleaxe/longbow) or 3d6 (greataxe).

In addition, if a monster-orc hits you in melee with a primary attack, it can make an opposed strength check (modified by +4 per size category) to knock you flying back. You are knocked back 5', plus 5' for every 5 the monster orc beats your strength check by.

You must then make a reflex save with DC equal to the number of feet you where pushed, or fall prone.

If you are blocked by something (like a wall) while being pushed back, you stop and take an additional 1d6 damage for every 5' you didn't move.

Monster orcs are CR 7.

...

How is that to make PCs scared of the Orcish Hordes once again?

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-01, 01:51 PM
I love it. I currently am running a homebrew campaign where orcs are not the short, brutish things they've come to be represented as, but towering soldier-flinging monstrosities of organized tactics and head-crushing power. I've been working on them for awhile, since my PCs are slated to run into them before long (though they keep going off in different directions... typical). I may adopt these guys.

I still might give them greataxes, though.

Edit: Does HD increase increase CR by the same amount? Wow, I need to learn to read more gooder.

Edit: Just avoiding posting twice in a row. I think a +2 LA might be a bit harsh for the orcs. Granted, it doesn't really matter since there are orcs to challenge and horrify the heroes, not to BE the heroes, but I think +1 LA might be enough, since they already have to take at least 2 racial HD.

Yakk
2008-02-01, 02:30 PM
Edit: Just avoiding posting twice in a row. I think a +2 LA might be a bit harsh for the orcs. Granted, it doesn't really matter since there are orcs to challenge and horrify the heroes, not to BE the heroes, but I think +1 LA might be enough, since they already have to take at least 2 racial HD.

Their racial HD are quite good -- 8 HP per level, full BaB, thanks to Orcish War Training.

And did you look at their racial modifiers to stats? *gah*

Compare a level 5 fighter to a level 2 orc/level 1 fighter, with the same bonuses to various stats, and 6 HP per fighter HD:
(StrB and ConB refer to the rolled bonuses -- I factored in orc stat modifiers later)

L 5 Fighter:
34+Con*5 HP. (6+ConB) every additional level
+5+StrB to hit/+StrB to damage (1.5 strB 2H)
2HPow: +StrB to hit/+10+1.5*StrB to damage
4 fighter feats
+1 human feat
+1 skill point per level

L 1 Orc Fighter:
32+(ConB)*3 HP. (8+ConB) every additional level
+7+StrB to hit/+4+StrB to damage (+6+1.5 StrB 2H)
2HPow: +4+StrB to hit/+12+1.5*StrB to damage
+2 AC from dex/natural armor
1 fighter feat
-1 skill point per level (low int)
Scent, Low-light vision (and light sensitive)
Natural attack with spikes, str to intimidate.

They aren't that far off from each other in power level. Admittedly I did use a gimpy class (Fighter), but as the characters advance, the orc will pass the Fighter's HP.

That 2H power attack on the orc is just nasty.

I suppose 1 less LA won't kill them. :) But I did aim to over-shoot the LA, as I didn't want being an orc to be that tempting.

This also gave me liberty to be generous with the stat modifiers.

I suppose an alternative would be to boost their HD and lower their stats, which would give the added advantage of increasing their saves.

...

A breakdown of the advanced HD orcs:

3 HD: CR 2. 33 HP, +2 strength, +2 constitution, power attack feat. Spot 2+0
4 HD: CR 3, 48 HP. 3 HD bonuses, plus: +2 constitution, +2 int, +2 cha. Frenzy: when reduced to 0 or below HP, does not KO if succeeds on DC 10+negative HP fortitude save each round. Skills I/S/L 5/4/5
5 HD: CR 4, 65 HP. 3 and 4 HD bonuses, plus: +1 natural armor, +2 wis, +2 dex, +2 con. Rage, as the Berzerker class ability, once per encounter after taking damage. Skills I/S/L 5/5/6

3 HD:
Abilities Str 21(+5) Dex 12(+1) Con 17(+3) Int 8(-1) Wis 10(+0) Cha 5(-3)
(Modifiers: +10 Str +2 Dex +6 Con -2 Int -6 Cha)

+8 Greataxe, 1d12+7 damage, secondary: +6 Spikes, 1d6+2 damage
+8 Battleaxe, 1d8+5 damage, secondary: +6 Spikes, 1d6+2 damage
Power attack: +5 Greataxe, 1d12+13 damage, secondary: +3 Spikes, 1d6+2 damage
+5 Battleaxe, 1d8+8 damage, secondary: +3 Spikes, 1d6+5 damage

Possibly an armor upgrade (Breastplate, Chainmail (+1 AC))

4 HD:
Abilities Str 22(+6) Dex 12(+1) Con 19(+4) Int 10(+0) Wis 10(+0) Cha 7(-2)
(Modifiers: +10 Str +2 Dex +8 Con -4 Cha)

+10 Greataxe, 1d12+9 damage, secondary: +8 spikes, 1d6+3 damage
+10 Battleaxe, 1d8+6 damage, secondary: +8 spikes, 1d6+3 damage
Power attack: +6 Greataxe, 1d12+17 damage, secondary: +4 Spikes, 1d6+3 damage
+6 Battleaxe, 1d8+10 damage, secondary: +4 Spikes, 1d6+7 damage

Chainmail or Breastplate at a min (+1 AC), possibly Split (+2)
Note that Split slows the Orc.

5 HD:
Abilities Str 22(+6) Dex 14(+2) Con 21(+4) Int 10(+0) Wis 12(+1) Cha 7(-2)
(Modifiers: +10 Str +4 Dex +10 Con +2 Wis -4 Cha)

Rage are in () below:
+11(+13) Greataxe, 1d12+9(+12) damage, secondary: +9(+11) spikes, 1d6+3(+4) damage
+11(+13) Battleaxe, 1d8+6(+8) damage, secondary: +9(+11) spikes, 1d6+3(+4) damage
Power attack: +6(+8) Greataxe, 1d12+17(+20) damage, secondary: +4(+6) Spikes, 1d6+3(+4) damage
+6(+8) Battleaxe, 1d8+10(+12) damage, secondary: +4(+6) Spikes, 1d6+7(+8) damage

Always Chain or Breastplate, sometimes Splint, Banded or Half Plate.

...

This orc is "under-CR'd" actually. Compare it to the Gnoll: it is much tougher in every dimension. On the other hand, Gnolls are written as using ambush tactics: this orc is only likely to use ambush tactics to discourage it's opponents from running, so it can claim the victory.

I figure a monster with "too much power", written to use poor tactics, would be more amusing than toning down it's power. It does the stupid things that D&D was semi-designed to assume: it charges the heavily armored fighter, and only swats at the members weaker in melee once the fighter drops.

Hell, it doesn't even kill off the downed fighter as written -- which means that there is a pretty reasonable chance that the fighter will survive being defeated.

Ie, it is aimed to scare the party ****less, more than effectively defeat them.

The smart tactics to deal with orcs is
1> Have a big, burley, threatening fighter for the orcs to charge at,
2> Use spells to blast them to kingdom come while healing to keep the fighter alive
which encourages standard party setups. :)

Against higher level parties, you'd throw a large number of orcs at them. This is one of the reasons I wanted to give them a high attack bonus: so they can actually hit.

However, I'd be concerned with this level of power in the hands of a PC. They could work hard to fix their weaknesses (low will and reflex saves), play tactically smart (instead of dumb), and end up more powerful than intended.

EvilElitest
2008-02-01, 02:47 PM
Is this based after the LOTRS movies by any chance?
from
EE

Yakk
2008-02-01, 03:16 PM
Yes, it is a Tolkien Orc, which is where D&D got it's Orcs from originally. :)

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-01, 03:27 PM
I figure a monster with "too much power", written to use poor tactics, would be more amusing than toning down it's power. It does the stupid things that D&D was semi-designed to assume: it charges the heavily armored fighter, and only swats at the members weaker in melee once the fighter drops.

Hell, it doesn't even kill off the downed fighter as written -- which means that there is a pretty reasonable chance that the fighter will survive being defeated.

I noticed this, but hadn't said anything yet since I'd already edited my post 3 times and it just doesn't feel right to me to muck with it any more than that...

Kudos on this. It means the meat-shield-type fighter can do his job, though in a group encounter the rest of the party is not out of the fire by far. The 'fresh meat' bit about ignoring an opponent once they're down is great. I had a sadistic DM once who had goblins coup-de-grace anyone who was down (whether they were dead or not) since goblins are sneaky bastards. While I don't fault him for doing so, that kind of death is for the hireling, not the PCs!

Reading over your post, you make a more than reasonable argument for the +2 LA. I agree. This kind of power really doesn't belong in the hands of a PC who can get away with ignoring the monstrous stereotypes. So I retract my previous statement.

You know what I'd love to do with these guys? Throw in a size increase at 5 HD.

"The biggest, ugliest orc you've ever seen strides into view, towering over the other green-skinned brutes advancing on the party. He lets out a gutteral roar which literally shakes you to the very bones. The constant shouts and taunts of the rest of the tribe fall silent. Wiping the slaver from his tusked jaw on the back of a lobstered gauntlet of pitted black iron, he points a finger the size of your arm directly at Andrus, the noble paladin who led you into this ambush. 'This one,' he says in a clear unaccented common, his red eyes gleaming with malevolence, 'is mine! Kill the rest.'"

Yakk
2008-02-01, 04:11 PM
Added a large 5 HD orcs. +1 CR, some higher stats, and some extra bonuses to make up that +1 CR.

Given how "over strong" most of the orcs are for their CR, I don't feel bad about short changing the large orc a tad. :)

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-01, 04:24 PM
Awesome. Big scary monster orcs!

Just remember the modifications when size increases from medium to large. STR +8, DEX -2, CON +4, Nat. AC +3 (this is over the +2 from small to medium, so I'm not sure if it's supposed to just increase the old score by one or what), Size Hit/AC-1, +1 CR

Which means these large orcs are going to have a total of +18 to their base Strength. Which means a 29 Strength score off your base, +1 for reaching 4HD (where else is an Orc going to put that, really) for a grand total of 30 Strength for your typical 5HD Orc.

Which puts him at what, a CR6? Just right for my PCs...

Yakk
2008-02-01, 05:04 PM
Now, we need to test these. A simple test would be to put a CR X orc up against a half-decent level X fighter.

If the fighter stands a chance, that's good enough for my taste.

Level 1 human fighter trip monkey:
16 str 13 dex 10 con 13 int 10 wis 8 cha (26 point buy)

feats: exotic weapon(spiked chain), combat expertise, improved trip
(not bad, but not min/maxed really)

Attack: +4 to hit, 2d4+4 to damage
Trip: +7
Initiative: +1

Assuming they are both aware of each other...

The human fighter probably gets to attack first. Let's assume the orc is charging.

Math-heavy combat simulation:

Trip: +4 vs touch of 9. 80% chance of connecting
+7 vs +4. 60%ish chance of winning the contest. Assuming he doesn't give up the weapon, 60% chance of not being knocked over.

If a knock over happens, free attack against AC 16 with a +4 to hit.

+8 vs 16 is 65% chance of landing for 9 damage.

AoO when the orc gets up, 65% chance of landing for 9 damage.

So: 48% chance of doing an average of 11.7 damage to the Orc, and then being able to step back and repeat. (call this a wounded orc)

12.8% chance of being knocked prone, which is pretty damn fatal.

39.2% chance the Orc gets to attack.

If the orc attacks:
+8 to hit @ 1d12+6 damage
Human fighter AC would be +1 (dex)+5 (chain or BP) = 16.
65% chance to hit. If it hits, 75% chance of victory, 25% chance of wounded.

If human unwounded:
0.4875 orc wins
0.1625 orc wounds
0.35 orc misses

If human wounded:
.65 orc wins
.35 orc misses

If the human isn't dead, the human can step back 5' and attempt to trip again.

So after first round:
0.48 wounded orc
0.128 prone, and probably dead, human
0.1911 KO'd human
0.0637 wounded human
0.1372 no damage done

0.3191 orc wins
0.48 orc wounded
0.0637 human wounded
0.1372 wiff wiff wiff

The wiff wiff wiff can be factored out (really, it works, just trust me):

Coding (V is victory, A is advantage)
0.37 V orc
0.56 A human
0.07 A orc

A human case:
.56 V human
.37 V orc
.07 A orc A human

A orc case:
0.44 V orc
0.56 A orc A human

A human A orc:
0.44 V orc
0.56 V human

Roll it up:
A orc:
0.69 V orc
0.31 V human

A human:
0.6 V human
0.4 V orc

Neutral:
0.37 V orc
0.56 A human (.34 V human, .22 V orc)
0.07 A orc (.05 V orc, 0.02 V human)
----


Conclusion:
0.64 V orc
0.36 V human

Ie, the standard built level 1 trip-monkey fighter human has about a 36% chance of beating a level 1 orc.

Orc might be too strong for CR 1. But not strong enough for CR 2...

Maybe if I just bumped Orc HD and CR up by one for all levels? Ok, I did it. +1 HD to each level of orc (so the base orc is a 3HD creature), and +1 CR to each level.

Now the base Orc is CR 2. Each HD increased CR by 1. The monster orc gets +2 CR from it's impressive stats and it's knockback ability (which I reworded to be clearer).

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-01, 07:43 PM
I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Remember the CRs are built assuming a 4-person party of characters of that level. So a single CR 1 orc should be a reasonable challenge for a party of level 1s. Assuming you've got some sort of healing in there, the other party members ought to be able to dispatch the orc even if the fighter goes down and heal him up afterward.

Yakk
2008-02-01, 08:46 PM
A single level 1 fighter is a CR 1 encounter. A level 1 fighter with that stat array is between CR 1 and CR 2. It is also a trip-monkey build, very effective at fighting humanoids.

A CR 1 encounter is supposed to drain about 1/6th of your group's resources.

So I figure "if a CR 1 orc beats a reasonably twinked fighter 2/3 of the time, maybe it isn't CR 1".

Instead of weakening the orc, I made it stronger. An extra HD. Then bumped it's CR up by 1.

Now it would be fighting at level 2 fighter, who is expected to be in lots of armor , probably masterwork weapons, and have more HP. It did gain power attack (ouch), but I think it is closer.

As a bonus, it makes "omg, it's an orc" mean more at first level.

Mike_G
2008-02-02, 04:44 PM
My biggest concern is with his damage output.

If he Power Attacks for 1D12 + 12, he guarantees a one-shot on any PC other than a Fighter with a 16+ CON, or Barbarian with a 14+. And that's if he rolls a 1 on the D12. Average damage will be 18.5, which will kill outright just about any Level 1 nonfighter and KO any level 1 PC in the game. Plus, with Power Attack, he will miss a lot, which means no feeling of dread. Basically, either the Orc misses, or he kills you.

I just don't see how it will be fun if it's:
Round 1: Miss
Round 2: Miss
Round 3: Kill the Fighter
Round 4: Miss
Round 5: Kill the Cleric.

...etc. With the limited Spells slots of a 1st level party, and 30 HP, an Orc could survive several rounds. If he isn't Slept or Color Sprayed, it will take several hits to drop him, during which he could kill half the party.

I'd sooner see a CR 1 monster with a max damage of 12, rather than a minimum that high. Losing the Two Handed Weapon and PA, this is a reasonable CR1 enemy.

Ascension
2008-02-02, 05:03 PM
...but it isn't CR1. Not anymore. He bumped it up to CR2.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-02, 05:22 PM
My biggest concern is with his damage output.

If he Power Attacks for 1D12 + 12, he guarantees a one-shot on any PC other than a Fighter with a 16+ CON, or Barbarian with a 14+. And that's if he rolls a 1 on the D12. Average damage will be 18.5, which will kill outright just about any Level 1 nonfighter and KO any level 1 PC in the game. Plus, with Power Attack, he will miss a lot, which means no feeling of dread. Basically, either the Orc misses, or he kills you.

I just don't see how it will be fun if it's:
Round 1: Miss
Round 2: Miss
Round 3: Kill the Fighter
Round 4: Miss
Round 5: Kill the Cleric.

...etc. With the limited Spells slots of a 1st level party, and 30 HP, an Orc could survive several rounds. If he isn't Slept or Color Sprayed, it will take several hits to drop him, during which he could kill half the party.

I'd sooner see a CR 1 monster with a max damage of 12, rather than a minimum that high. Losing the Two Handed Weapon and PA, this is a reasonable CR1 enemy.

They're not completely brainless. An orc isn't going to power attack for full every round. I don't know about you, but when I play a character with power attack, I usually carve small amounts of my attack bonus off, especially if my opponent is clearly well-armored.

On the other hand, I do understand the concern and why Yak bumped it up to a CR2. You do make a good point.

Incidentally, Orcs are supposed to be scary in some people's eyes. This Orc was linked in the 'Power Creep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71084)' thread regarding how the PCs have become vastly more powerful than the monsters they face.

But alas, over the years and the editions, they have not. Specifically the lower leveled monsters (I think the higher leveled monsters have kept pace with the PCs, though I'm less familiar with them.)

Consider the Friendly Neighborhood Orc.

In Original D&D, the Orc had 1d6 of hit points, and if he scored a hit on you, did 1d6 of damage. You, the valiant 1st level fighter, had 1d6+1 worth of hit points (no maximum dice at 1st level!), and if your constitution score was really high, you got a whole additional hit point. If you scored a hit with your weapon (didn't matter what weapon you had, they all did the same), you'd do 1d6 of damage to the Orc, with a whole +1 if you had a really high strength score. Edit: Nope, wrong about the strength - there were no bonuses to damage for high strength. Just a straight d6 of damage per hit.

Run the numbers on that, and you'll find that you can easily lose a one on one fight with an Orc, especially if you were unlucky enough to roll low for hp, while the Orc happens to roll high for his.

So we go on to Basic D&D. Mr. Fighter gets boosted, he now had a d8 for hit points (still had to roll at 1st level), and was more likely to get a CON-bonus to his hit points (needing only a 13 or better for that +1), and might get more than that (+2 at 16, +3 at 18). Similarly, his weapon might do a d8 of damage (longsword), and his strength would likely give him a +1 or better in damage. All around, he was significantly beefed up.

And the Orc? His hit dice went from a d6 to a d8, though in modules he was still usually listed as having only 3 hit points. Unless otherwise noted, his damage was still a standard d6, though he was permitted to carry better weapons. Barely any improvement at all.

To Advanced D&D! Now this, on the surface, was actually a step back. After all, in Basic, you could get a bonus from your abilities starting with at 13, while in Advanced, you typically needed a 15 or better. But the 4d6 drop 1 system came into play at about this point, making it about as likely to get the 15 now as it was to get the 13 before. And the higher scores gave higher bonuses (18's now gave a +4, and an 18 strength gave fighters an additional percentage roll, potentially giving up to a +3 to hit, +6 in damage!). The fighter also got a d10 in hit points now. Plus, while not listed in the rules, it started to become a bit more common to give the characters a guaranteed 50% hit points at 1st level, so most fighters started with 5-10 hit points plus their CON bonus.

The Orc? d8 in hit points, though in modules they were at least now listed as having a standard 5 hit points, instead of the 3 hp in earlier adventures. Still only d6 in damage unless otherwise noted, though now you could have a 'Half-Orc' NPC in the group to surprise the PC's.

Unearthed Arcana (the 80's version) and 2nd edition brought about higher stat scores possible, making 19's and above much more possible. Unearthed Arcana had some goofy system where you picked your class before rollling your stats, and then rolled an insane number of dice, dropping all but three, to get your score. (For example, I think the fighter rolled NINE d6, drop the lowest six, to get his starting strength score.) It also added Weapon Specialization, available to 1st level fighters, to give a +1 to hit, +2 damage to his chosen weapon. And I think, but I might be wrong about this, but I think the "minimum 50% hit points at 1st level" is actually codified into the rules somewhere about now, though by this point, many of the players had already moved on to maximum hit points at 1st level.

And the Orc? Heh. Absolutely no change. d8 hit points, 5 average, damage by weapon type, which *could* be a d8, but still often was only a d6. Though to be fair, by this point in the development of the gaming community, the whole concept that "Orcs can't level up" had been discarded, so there were quite a few high level Orc fighters out there. But I am still looking at the analysis of the 1st level fighter vs the standard Orc.

Then arrives 3rd edition! This cleaned up some of the earlier mess, and actually scaled down some of the power creep (for example, Weapon Specialization is now only available at 4th level and beyond). But with stat bonuses kicking in at a 12, and the 4d6 drop one as the standard system, it now was quite likely to get stat bonuses in many catagories. And, codefied right into the rules, there it is - maximum hit points at first level! Then add in feats, and you get a variety of boosts to your standard 1st level fighter.

Now here comes the good part: The Orc also got boosted. The Orc, long having been described as being strong and menacing, has never once gotten a strength-based bonus to his damage, over all these years. Now, he gets a standard +2 to damage, assuming a racial average strength of 14. Plus, damage is listed now as by weapon-type, not just an assumed d6. And those Orcs do love their Greataxes, so it's quite possible they get a d12+2 for their damage! Finally, they are a threat again!

And their hit points? d8, no constitution bonus, and in fact the listed average hit points actually went DOWN, from 5 in AD&D, to 4, in 3.0? WTF?!?

And correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have 3.5 books handy, but wasn't the listing for the Orc modified to change the standard weaponry back to less damaging types, like swords and axes, so they're only doing d8+2 damage on average? They finally make the Orc a threat again, so they feel they need to correct this and scale them back down again?

This... this is a clear power creep, not scaling on each side, but clearly boosting the PC's over that of the standard Orcs, to the point that modern Orcs are a mere shadow of the formidable threats they once were, so many long editions ago. And yes, I know I can boost them by giving them PC levels and max hit points, and give them higher stat bonuses, and yada yada yada. But hey, if I wanted uber Orcs, I could have done that in early D&D. I want the regular run-of-the-mill Orc to be a threat, and not need the artificially boosted elite Orcs, just to match the modern PCs.

I hear from many players these days on how boring it is to fight Orcs. Well, that's because you aren't fighting Orcs, you're fighting Gimps. Come back with me to the 70's, you'll be fighting, and likely fleeing from, the freaking Uruk-Hai! You'll learn to fear the symbol of the White Hand of Saruman once again!

The power creep simply has not been equal on both sides.

*~*

This was originally going to be my response to an old thread, "Are Orcs Overpowered", but I never got around to posting it there. Short answer: No. Orcs are *Underpowered*, and need to be boosted back up to their former glory.

*~*

I also think the power-creep has also affected higher levels, not necessarily against high level monsters (again, I don't play enough high level stuff to know how PC's stack against Illthiliads or Demons or Howard the Duck or whatever) - but more in how high level characters can now totally pawn the lower level monsters. I remember back in 1st edition D&D, when my group of 9th level guys came across a large tribe of Orcs, we had to decide if we wanted to fight them, avoid them, negotiate with them, maybe even offer alliance with them against a common enemy. Nowadays, it seems a group of 9th level PC's wouldn't bother to consider options, as the Orcs are simply an inconvenience to them, and would be a waste of time to ally with them, negotiation would simply be a 'roleplay choice' only. I've even seen players offer to go deal with them alone, so as to not waste the other's playing time. ("Deal with", meaning, kill every last one of them. Does not seem wise to me, but I've seen them get away with it.)

The whole dynamics of high level PCs and low level monsters has changed, for the worse, in my view.

*~*~*

I want my fearsome Orcs back!

Being in potentially deadly situations IS fun. Adventurers are crazypeople, remember. It's important to note that prior to 3rd edition, the 'you're not dead until you bleed to death or are otherwise knocked to -10' rule was merely optional and didn't exist at all in the older sets. So that Original D&D fighter against the Orc was in pretty hot water. And that was a reasonable encounter at level 1! The goal of all this is to bring back that sense of danger and the fear of Orcs.

Additionally, I think it's worth mentioning that they don't all have greataxes. They are also listed as using battleaxes, which do a mere 1d8+4 or 1d8+7 on a full power attack. I can't imagine that Orcs are the best craftsmen around, so getting one's hands on a durable and effective 2-handed weapon might not be the most common occurrence. I can see an entire tribe of 1HD orcs led by the one who happened to claim a greataxe.

Yakk
2008-02-03, 03:24 PM
A level 2 fighter has (16+ConB*2) HP, and can take (26+ConB*2) damage before folding.

A full power attack from a greataxe orc does (13 to 24) damage at +4 to hit. At 12 con, that's a 50-50 chance of dropping the fighter on a given swing.

Hmm. Ya, that is still pretty harsh. Power Attack sort of rocks.

Knock down the HD by 1 again, which delays Power Attack to the "elite" 3 HD orc, and and keep the CR boost? Then the base orc does 7 to 18 damage, which will only drop a level 2 fighter in 1 blow on a lucky swing.

The CR 3 orc does the full 13 to 24 damage, but is up against (22+ConB*3) fighters: once again, unlikely to drop a fighter in a single blow.

Meanwhile, the orc has rather low reflex and will saves. A naive "blast it with color spray" simply ends the fight.