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Lord Tataraus
2008-02-01, 10:23 PM
So as I was relating about what an amazing system CP2020 is, I felt like playing/GMing it again. However, the only games of it I've played the campaign stopped after one or two real missions. Granted, the first time we played we were learning the system and learned a few valuable lessons (such as do not allow a player to use a shoulder-mounted SAM launcher with a ramjet for a side arm). And it seems that the other games ended due to failed missions and player stupidity. Of course, that makes for great stories, but I would like to play a decent game with out too much incident.

So, to my question: What style of play do you guys like for a Cyberpunk 2020 game? Such as, mercs, corporate Black Ops, mafia/gangers, etc. And what style of missions? (ex: pure infiltration, smuggling, assassination, black ops hits, etc.)

Thanks a lot!

P.S. oh and as a side poll, what amount of CP2020 material do you have access to?

Tengu
2008-02-01, 11:51 PM
Not to be a pooper, but this is a bad, bad game. If you want a cyperpunkish game, play Shadowrun instead.

Crow
2008-02-02, 12:00 AM
Not to be a pooper, but this is a bad, bad game. If you want a cyperpunkish game, play Shadowrun instead.

...in your opinion.

In my opinion, maybe you should contribute something meaningful to this thread.

To the OP: Presumably like the poster before me, I've played Shadowrun and it is a good game. The new edition is somewhat crap. CP2020 is a good system and a fun game.

Our group's preference changes by mood. Sometimes we like high-stakes international mission stuff, and other times we like quiet professional stuff. You're good at what you do, but still need to lay low to avoid the big-shots, but not so low as to hang out with the gutter scum and other low-lifes.

My group doesn't really like the "Gutter" street-level stuff. But "Organized Crime" street level sits just fine with them.

Tengu
2008-02-02, 12:32 AM
In my opinion, maybe you should contribute something meaningful to this thread.


I hate contributing. (not) And I have never played Shadowrun, but I've heard about it, and I've seen the rulebook to Cyberpunk - maybe this game has become much better in the next editions, but what I've seen was early 90s RPGs at their worst.

As for the actual topic, I always liked the "a bunch of mercenaries gets their hands on some valuable information they shouldn't know" trope. You have both enemies (the organization that wants you silent) and the ability to influence the world somehow (depending on what that information actually is).

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-02, 12:37 AM
Not to be a pooper, but this is a bad, bad game. If you want a cyperpunkish game, play Shadowrun instead.

Well, it might not be the game for you, but I know that Shadowrun is not the game for me. I don't like Shadowrun at all. Actually, it seems that most people who played CP2020 first prefer it to Shadowrun, while those who played Shadowrun prefer it to CP2020. And really, the core book is not all that great in terms of equipment, but the combat system is great (with a few tweaks). And considering you haven't played it, I don't think you have the right to dismiss it as a bad game, sure you can say its not your thing, but don't dismiss it so easily.

Nargrakhan
2008-02-02, 12:50 AM
And I have never played Shadowrun, but I've heard about it, and I've seen the rulebook to Cyberpunk - maybe this game has become much better in the next editions, but what I've seen was early 90s RPGs at their worst.

Eh? On what logic do you base that? Cyberpunk was pretty damn cool. Night City was a highly detailed metroplex, the setting was an interesting take on the "Japanese and Europeans are gonna own America" overhype that was a concern of the 1980's US, the character classes were neat, and the combat system was brutally unforgiving - in a good way. It was all about glam rock and doing things with style. The "cyberpunk" feel of the time.

I personally loathe Shadowrun, Elves in the City ain't my thing, but I don't go around calling it crap. Cyberpunk is more than good: its great. I remember running a Bubblegum Crisis campaign using the setting and rules, waaaay before there was an official Bubblegum Crisis RPG. There was also that Syndicate campaign (the Bullfrog game)... ah... good times...

Shadowrun has it's merits, but Cyberpunk was for the "pure tech" stuff without Tolkien pollution. Cyberpunk rules, and just being reminded of it brings back great gaming memories.



So, to my question: What style of play do you guys like for a Cyberpunk 2020 game? Such as, mercs, corporate Black Ops, mafia/gangers, etc. And what style of missions? (ex: pure infiltration, smuggling, assassination, black ops hits, etc.)


I don't play Cyberpunk anymore, but if I were to restart, I'd go for something anime-ish, since they're so mainstream nowa days. Ghost in the Shell for example. No tweaking would really be necessary – just renaming (i.e. Rockerboys become Idols). Another source of inspiration would be to use popular movies. You could make an Equilibrium type setting, with Solos being "Gun Priests" or whatnot.

There's tons of stuff to borrow from. Cyberpunk never died: it just got a facelift. :smallcool:

More or less though: adapt the campaign so the players have maximum fun. What are they in to? What types "urban action" movies or anime do they like?

Tengu
2008-02-02, 01:08 AM
I agree that Cyberpunk 2020 has great fluff, but the mechanics are terrible - prices for things were just pulled by the designers from their asses, it's very easy to screw up a test even if you're a master (and horribly hard to do something if you're not one), everything is extremely random and the combat rules are completely unbalanced, practically consisting of "guys in armor and Solos win". Maybe it was fixed in the later editions.

Nargrakhan
2008-02-02, 01:18 AM
I agree that Cyberpunk 2020 has great fluff, but the mechanics are terrible - prices for things were just pulled by the designers from their asses...

I don't know... I always saw it as super inflated prices of the 1980's - which makes sense considering the economic disparity of the defunct United States in Cyberpunk.



everything is extremely random and the combat rules are completely unbalanced, practically consisting of "guys in armor and Solos win". Maybe it was fixed in the later editions.

That was the intent. I remember one of the second or third printing mentioning the intent of the combat system. It was supposed to be easy to die. Solo's ruled the firefight, because that's what they do: rule the firefight.

However Cyberpunk was NOT supposed to be used like that. Look at Blade Runner or the novels from William Gibson. There's shooting, but it often times was a last resort. Information and manipulation of it was the focus. Not raw violence.

Corporates used it to earn profit. Fixers used it to make deals. Medias used it to break a story and reveal the truth. Rockerboys used it to start movements. Etc, etc, etc. Making a shooting festival was not what Cyberpunk should be. The lethality of the combat system proves that.

AVOIDING combat was how great campaigns worked.

Make your enemies shoot each other, then just pick off their corpse. That's how REAL Choombas did it Chummer. :smallwink:

two_fishes
2008-02-02, 01:19 AM
I never played, but I have read through the book and I remember loving the LifePath character generation system. It was so cool!

Mr. Diggs
2008-02-02, 01:22 AM
im currently playing a game where our goal is to setup a criminal enterprise in a las vegas setting. it is pretty fun, when we lost our house/office in a rival groups attacks we opted to use this as a perfect opportunity for some inssurance fraud. good times were had by all. but ya, we also have this heavy metal group we hired for a party we threw, and have since made ourselves their managers and are seeing to the process of making them famous and us rich, though much legs will have to be broken on the road to stardom. just remember that in cyberpunk everything is disposable, and this includes human life. keep that in mind and you should have a good time.

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-02, 01:24 AM
I agree that Cyberpunk 2020 has great fluff, but the mechanics are terrible - prices for things were just pulled by the designers from their asses, it's very easy to screw up a test even if you're a master (and horribly hard to do something if you're not one), everything is extremely random and the combat rules are completely unbalanced, practically consisting of "guys in armor and Solos win". Maybe it was fixed in the later editions.

The combat system is realistic. A trained gunman will win in a few shots. Armor protects you as long as your not at point blank range. In real life most people don't live very long when shot by a gunman and that's what solos are.

Tengu
2008-02-02, 01:34 AM
The combat system is realistic. A trained gunman will win in a few shots. Armor protects you as long as your not at point blank range. In real life most people don't live very long when shot by a gunman and that's what solos are.

It's not the accuracy (because it's the same for a Solo as for everyone else) - it's the fact that only Solo can have the Combat Reflexes skill (or whatever is the name). What prohibits a Cop or a Nomad, for example, to be able to act quickly too?

And the combat is not really realistic when it's extremely hard to kill an unarmored man with a shot to the head with a small firearm, but a single bullet from a rifle will almost certainly kill anyone. They pulled the damage tables for weapons from their arses, too.

In real life, a bulletproof vest is not something that lets you shrug off a bullet - it lets you survive or actually do something more than writhe in pain. In Cyberpunk 2020, if you're armored enough you have to swallow a grenade to be taken down.

I don't mind realistic systems (though they're not my piece of cake) but I want them to be actually realistic, not just claiming to be.

Nargrakhan
2008-02-02, 01:34 AM
The combat system is realistic. A trained gunman will win in a few shots. Armor protects you as long as your not at point blank range. In real life most people don't live very long when shot by a gunman and that's what solos are.

Snipers were truly Angels of Death. :smallsmile:

I fondly remember a really great campaign, where I was playing a Solo sniper, and another teammate was a Rockergirl - but with a "girl of a hundred faces" type slant. We and the other party members worked as an assassination team.

One of our main ploys, was where she'd find our mark, do the one night seduction, and have sex with him (or sometimes her). Our Netrunner would track where they'd be. She'd try to have sex on the window or balcony.

That's where I came in: Bang!!!

She'd play the "OMG!" and hysterical innocent, then when the authorities came, we'd extract her as the situation required.

Ahhh... so good times those were. :smallcool:






It's not the accuracy (because it's the same for a Solo as for everyone else) - it's the fact that only Solo can have the Combat Reflexes skill (or whatever is the name). What prohibits a Cop or a Nomad, for example, to be able to act quickly too?

They were general classifications of roles, not actual professions. You could always have Solo cops: they would be the SWAT team. I wouldn't call the system realistic: it was brutally deadly. That's what cyberpunk needed. That's what Cyberpunk used.

Shadowrun's system had terrible faults. There's a reason why it's called "Munchkinrun" by some people. And Lord, if we start ranting and whining about how bad gaming systems are with combat... all of them have it. Sheesh... d20 has MAJOR issues. Don't get me started on something like the SDC/MDC from Palladium.

Mr. Diggs
2008-02-02, 01:46 AM
plus it is always fun to get cybered up to the point of near pychosis, just to get that extra bit of omph out of your character. also poser gangs always allows for that proper dose of humor. in our game on a joke side mission i had to protect an old jennifer aniston from a david schwimmer (sp) poser gang. the imagery alone keeps bringing back a chuckle.

btw for those who dont know, a poser gang is a group of people who get plastic surgery to look like celebrities and what have you.

Nargrakhan
2008-02-02, 01:54 AM
plus it is always fun to get cybered up to the point of near pychosis, just to get that extra bit of omph out of your character.

Always avoided that messy issue. The usual government answer to someone using a hammer, was using a bigger sledgehammer. I liked to live, and that means staying under the radar. Setting off metal detectors in departments stores wasn't gonna do that. :smallwink:

Only played two combat characters: a sniper and a gun priest (old westerns did it first yo; not anime). Neither went all out on the metal.

I always preferred being the Fixer. Most people can't begin to believe how easy it is to kill groups of people, as a lowly Fixer... of course, I'm sure Fixer veterans already know all the cool tricks too. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-02, 02:02 AM
They were general classifications of roles, not actual professions. You could always have Solo cops: they would be the SWAT team. I wouldn't call the system realistic: it was brutally deadly. That's what cyberpunk needed. That's what Cyberpunk used.

Actually, in the Interface Magazine (vol 2 issue 2 page 40 if you have it) has an alternate role system where everyone has two roles, a status role and an attitude role. Status roles are more like a profession: Cop, Corporate, Nomad, Freelance. Then attitudes are like training and personality: Rockerboy/girl, Solo, Media, Netrunner, Techie, "Normal". I don't say I necessarily agree with which role goes into which category, but it does help define a character more and you get 2 special abilities instead of one (albeit at a lower rank) unless you take the neutral role on one side. Also, the Interface Magazine they give alternate roles and skill packages to further define your character, with my few homebrew roles and those in the magazine, there are 42 roles to choose from with 15 special abilities among them. Now you can take the role Ex-Cybersoldier or Bounty Hunter instead of the normal Solo.


Shadowrun's system had terrible faults. There's a reason why it's called "Munchkinrun" by some people. And Lord, if we start ranting and whining about how bad gaming systems are with combat... all of them have it. Sheesh... d20 has MAJOR issues. Don't get me started on something like the SDC/MDC from Palladium.

Oh sure, the combat system has its faults, I did say it needs some tweaking and of course you can't get 100% realism, its just the most realistic system I've ever encountered.

ZekeArgo
2008-02-02, 02:05 AM
I also call BS on non-solos being useless in combat. In a long-running campaign my fixer was often the "heavy hitter" along with our rather cyberized combat medic. Nevermind that our solo player had the most horrible luck with dice.

Heh, just reminded me of a combat chase where my fixer managed to drop an AV-4 and survive a rocket blast before car was destroyed around him. Good times ;)

Nargrakhan
2008-02-02, 02:15 AM
Actually, in the Interface Magazine...

Thanks for the hook and line. :smallsmile:

Did you know Dream Pod 9 released something called Night's Edge which allowed Blade (or anime vampire) type campaigns? Never actually tried it, but the rules looked solid. Lets you put a little supernatural into the setting, without going overboard like Shadowrun.




I also call BS on non-solos being useless in combat. In a long-running campaign my fixer was often the "heavy hitter" along with our rather cyberized combat medic. Nevermind that our solo player had the most horrible luck with dice.

Gimmie five Brother! Fixers are the Grim Reapers of Cyberpunk. :smallcool:

Kicking the door down with guns blazing ain't how you do things. Solos are always cool, but they served the role of "when everything else failed" type situations. By then we were probably screwed... and that was soooo cool too. On the edge of our seat kinda action. :smallamused:

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-02, 02:18 AM
I also call BS on non-solos being useless in combat. In a long-running campaign my fixer was often the "heavy hitter" along with our rather cyberized combat medic. Nevermind that our solo player had the most horrible luck with dice.

True, Solos only have an edge, but not complete control over combat. In fact, on of the best combatants was a Nomad variant who was basically a mobster (the grandson of the Don in fact) who was a sniper. Of course, my players were not the most intelligent bunch. Good ol' master sniper thought it would be a good idea to stand on top of a building across the street from a maximum secruity prison to snipe at the 20+ guards...who had sniper rifles....at least he won initiative, but standing was not the best thing he could have done. 10 sniper shots to the head does not leave much left...

Sometimes I wish my players were just a bit better, but then I couldn't imagine a game without them...

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-02, 02:22 AM
Thanks for the hook and line. :smallsmile:

Did you know Dream Pod 9 released something called Night's Edge which allowed Blade (or anime vampire) type campaigns? Never actually tried it, but the rules looked solid. Lets you put a little supernatural into the setting, without going overboard like Shadowrun.
I've actually seen that, and I have a pdf of it (a friend gave it to me), but I have yet to read it.


Gimmie five Brother! Fixers are the Grim Reapers of Cyberpunk. :smallcool:

Kicking the door down with guns blazing ain't how you do things. Solos are always cool, but they served the role of "when everything else failed" type situations. By then we were probably screwed... and that was soooo cool too. On the edge of our seat kinda action. :smallamused:
Unfortunately, no one has played a good Fixer in my games. Though I must say one of my favorite roles is a Fixer variant: Racketeer. What's better than extorting money from people and then actually having the muscle back you up? Of course the Pimp is just hilarious.

comicshorse
2008-02-02, 10:43 AM
While I love Cyberpunk I gotta admit I was glad they scrapped Combat Expertise from 2nd edition. I understand Solo's were meant to be deadly but it was just too overbalancing. Them going fast I can understand but the fact it took off other people's to hit was ridiculous. A cop could stand next to one and still have a good chance of missing.

On style, we tried several ( every player took a turn g.m.'ing): a media team campaign, a Trauma Team campaign, one working for the C.I.A. ( and, yes they screwed us over).
The best game was a Cop campaign. Good mixture of streetfighting violence, corporate intrigue, intellectual detective work and social interaction at all levels of society. Also it was nice to interact with a bunch of N.P.C.s ( the other cops in the departement) who we actually liked and weren't trying to kill us.

skywalker
2008-02-03, 01:26 AM
This thread is absolutely full of jargon nobody who's not played the game could understand.

I've never played the game, although the "Friday Night Firefight" system sounds sexy as hell and I'd love to try it.

Right now, I'm partial to mercenaries, although that may be just because I watched Rambo recently.

My all-time favorite cyberpunk trope is down and dirty action in the bars and streets. Not the gutter, IE cops and hoods are still cops and hoods, just with exploding bullets and targeting sensors.

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-03, 01:37 PM
This thread is absolutely full of jargon nobody who's not played the game could understand.

Well, it is a CP2020 thread, wouldn't a D&D thread have a lot of jargon as well? Anyway, thanks for the input despite the jargon.

Fhaolan
2008-02-03, 06:58 PM
I used to love Cyberpunk. I started with the original game, and eventually upgraded to 2020. Didn't go beyond that, as I was having trouble finding gaming groups for it. They all wanted to play Shadowrun. Which I did, and there was some stuff in that I wanted to port back to Cyberpunk, but never got around to it. (Riggers. I so wanted to port the rules for Shadowrun Riggers into Cyberpunk. I never got around to it, and for all I know there were similar rules for Cyberpunk, but they must have came out after I stopped playing the system).

The Cyberpunk game I used to play was pre-Matrix, pre-Aeon Flux, etc. It was all 'stay low, stay sharp'. You're not going to take down the corps and reform the world in your image. You might fight the system, and you may even win in a localized manner, but that's it. Survival is the goal. The combat system does not allow for Hong Kong Action Theatre-type games. (Which is why there was a Hong Kong Action Theatre RPG. :smallbiggrin:)

As a warning, there are some sections of the genre that is difficult in any system. Mainly Netrunning/Decking. Running an RPG with a split party is one of the more difficult things for a game master, because balancing the plot line and flipping back and and forth between the split paths is a difficult skill to master. It's easy to focus on one path to the detriment of the other, leading to bored players going and screwing around with the Wii until you're ready for them, which breaks the game's flow. Netrunning/Decking means that split parties is encouraged in the game system itself. Because of this, both Cyberpunk and Shadowrun systems need to be handled by more experienced Game Masters for an immersive game.

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-03, 08:35 PM
IAs a warning, there are some sections of the genre that is difficult in any system. Mainly Netrunning/Decking. Running an RPG with a split party is one of the more difficult things for a game master, because balancing the plot line and flipping back and and forth between the split paths is a difficult skill to master. It's easy to focus on one path to the detriment of the other, leading to bored players going and screwing around with the Wii until you're ready for them, which breaks the game's flow. Netrunning/Decking means that split parties is encouraged in the game system itself. Because of this, both Cyberpunk and Shadowrun systems need to be handled by more experienced Game Masters for an immersive game.

Netrunning is one aspect I've never agreed with for any cyberpunk style game. I abhor the matrix-style net and instead just have netrunners be normal hackers who use super programs to act and react with the speed needed and the netrunner backs it up with special commands and auxiliary programs. Also, most security systems aren't connected to the net or are indirectly connected so it is easier and faster to infiltrate and hack from the inside. Thus the netrunner stays with the group as back up. Even better if your netrunner has medical training.