Tassadar vs Psycho Mantis

[Deepblue706]

This matchup is between the Protoss High Templar Tassadar (Starcraft) and Evil Psychic Bastard Psycho Mantis (Metal Gear Solid). Both possess incredible psionic powers - I mean, you can only beat Psycho Mantis by changing what controller port you're using - unless, you are incredibly awesome. However, in Starcraft, you can't change controller ports. You can't change keyboard ports. Can Tassadar tough it out? He does have an awesome voice actor - that at least grants him some bonus points.

Personally, I think Tassadar can't lose - I mean, even if he's losing, he can just crash Gantrithor into things. At his worst, I'd say it's a draw.

[Innis Cabal]

Tassadar......on merit he can get star ships

[Tengu]

I don't think if any human is able to fully comprehend and read into a Protoss mind, thus making it possible for Tassadar to get rid of Mantis without metagamingly breaking the fourth wall in a masterful way (I love the way MGS handles some... heck, most of the stuff). And without that, Mantis is just a guy who can mind control weak individuals and telekinetically throw tables around. Tassadar would beat him even without the carrier.

[Mr. Scaly]

Plus the sheer level of psychic power that Tassadar possessed was enough to flood a super carrier and turn it into a weapon capable of destroying the Overmind. Psycho Mantis is nasty but is only human.

[BRC]

well, actually what Tassadard did is better described as finishing off the overmind, Zeratul and the dark templar had just beaten it to a bloody pulp but couldn't finish it off because just having it stabbed by abunch of alien ninjas wasn't dramatic enough.

[Mr. Scaly]

Don't forget the humans' contribution. ^^

Still, I'd like to see Psycho Mantis try that.

[Freshmeat]

Tassadar, easily. Had Psycho Mantis come even close to the Protoss' power, he wouldn't have taken orders from just about everyone in MGS.
There's a huge difference between 'moving some chairs about with your mind' and 'being able to create a veritable storm of mind-wracking pain'.

As for mind-reading? Try mind-reading an alien.
Psycho Mantis doesn't stand a chance.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Psychomantis - given the typical way that MGS unfolds, he'd reveal that he'd only been manipulating Tassadar all along, and that whatever he did would only play into his hands further.

[Tengu]

Eh... Psycho Mantis is a powerful psychic, but he didn't give an impression of being good at the whole subtle manipulation thing.

[Setra]

A Ghost would be a better match.

[Ossian]

LOL, with a satanic flavor to it. Come on, Tassadar could have occupied three seats in the Jedi Council at its heyday. How is a leather fetish floating criminal going to stand a chance against him?

No, more seriously, I thank the OP because it's always good to pit Tassadar against someone else, because I like the Templar and I love to see him win.

Besides, what did he say to the whole Terran Fleet? "I am starting to think that my mercy towards your race was a mistake" or something like that?

[Deepblue706]

First of all, Psycho Mantis wasn't exactly a chump. He joined in the takeover at Shadow Moses because he wanted an excuse to kill people. He could really do whatever he wanted, but letting someone else call themself "leader" lets him hide in the background.

Let's assume Psycho Mantis can anticipate Tassadar's attacks - at least on some level. That's what made him effective. Is there no way he could evade Tassadar's attacks? Could he not be able to hide from him, at all? Tassadar can make illusions and shoot things, but Psycho Mantis (if he could sway the Protoss) could try controlling someone - perhaps Aldaris - and try to confuse or distract Tassadar.

Let's not forget - while protoss have psionic energy, none of them can "detect" (other than their robots and machines). Opposing Dark Templar never see one-another - I think Pyscho Mantis might be hard to pin down if Tassadar can't find him. Sure, he can storm wildly, but...that has limits.

In the end, I think it's more likely Tassadar would win - I just thought this might be more of a fight than most here seem to believe. Maybe I'm wrong...

[Tengu]

I don't think if Mantis would be able to mind control a Protoss - if he could, he'd surely be powerful enough just to make Snake eat his own gun instead of playing with him.

On a side note, remember that Mantis' invisibility is a result of his cloaking suit, not psychic powers.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I don't think if Mantis would be able to mind control a Protoss - if he could, he'd surely be powerful enough just to make Snake eat his own gun instead of playing with him.

On a side note, remember that Mantis' invisibility is a result of his cloaking suit, not psychic powers.

He also encounters problems if his foe crouches - suddenly, it seems that he can't affect them.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think Psycho Mantis is more like a ghost with the inhibitor chip removed when it comes to psychic powers than Tassadar. If I remember right, PM fought that battle by

1) throwing furniture.
2) floating around with his mind.
3) predicting moves.

Tassadar can counter all of these.

1) he's got massively powerful shielding that protects him from rifles, flamethrowers, and bombs.
2) Tassadar can float with his mind too, and can call down a storm of psionic lightning over a whole area.
3) protoss predict moves too, and they have more powerful minds than even ghosts do. Thus they can predict moves faster and more accurately.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Psycho Mantis wins; when he died, he died because he wanted to die. All the characters in Metal Gear are symbols, which must be overcome in their own ways to be defeated. One does not defeat Mantis with bullets, he could telekinetically stop them. One stops Mantis by proving him wrong when he reads one's mind. His emaciated frame exists on pure psionic willpower, a will to live the Snake was able to break. Honestly, Tassadar is a beaurocrat with fancy psychic stuff. He doesn't have the heart it takes to overcome Mantis' hateful inertia.

[Tengu]

Remember that Tassadar performed a self-sacrifice to destroy the Overmind: he died because he wanted to die, too, although it's in a different context.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

In a way, yes. Mantis died only because he no longer wished to live, though; he was in full control of his own fate. He didn't just make Snake eat his gun because he wanted to play with Snake. He played his part in the games of the Patriots and Liquid because that would cause more people to die, and that was all he wanted. The Protoss are a bloated, imperialistic, elitist space empire. They're everything PsychoMantis hated about humanity, but worse.

Also, people are not really giving his powers adequate credit. Without that gasmask on, PsychoMantis could hear the thoughts of everyone on Earth at once, by some accounts, and at least a huge number of people by others. He could hear thousands, millions of minds at once without even trying to.

The only way Psycho Mantis can ever really be beaten comes down to the way Snake defeats him:
A strong man makes his own future. Tassadar, really, doesn't make his own Future. Like the rest of the Protoss, he's burried in the past. Aiur, the Templar, the Zerg, he dies for the future. Mantis can only be destroyed by someone who lives truly and solely in the present. Tassadar fights for the survival of the Protoss, not for his own survival. He's not Snake, and he can't defeat Mantis. He is not the Ubersmench, he is a sheep in the herd.

[Tengu]

I disagree. Tassadar is as individualistic as it's possible for a non-Dark Templar Protoss - he decided to ally with humans, despite the council's close-minded views. Without the actions that he partook directly, the Zerg would have won. Fighting for your race, not just for yourself, does not make you weak.

Also, I think that you overestimate Mantis's abilities. I got the impression that he can hear the thoughts of people who are near him, not in the global range.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

See, the thing is, Fighting for your Race does make you weak, in Mantis' terms. The idea that people only exist for the genetic propagation of their species is a large portion of his hatred, along with the rest of anyone who has less than total free will. Snake does what he does because he wants to, which is what makes him different than everyone else outside of his family. Tassadar is as individualistic as possible for a. . . is the problem; that's not very individualistic. He, also, acts largely on a sense of duty.

Mantis is the most powerful Telepath in the Metal Gear continuity, which puts him up against Ursela, from Portable Ops (yes, it is very much Canon), who is on a very wide scale and can see decades into the future. Again, remember, Mantis is a symbol, more than person. He dresses in leather because it's associated with BDSM domination, he dominates minds, and hates the lack of free will in most people. His symbol is domination, manipulation, and following in a herd, like a zombie, hence his undead appearance. He is the personification of the loss of freedom, and like everyone else in MGS (except, perhaps, Solid Snake), has become everything that he despises.

From the mechanical abilities he displays in game, versus those of Tassadar, Tassadar's probably got a good chance with his space ship and all. However, that's disregarding the fact that Mantis can really only be killed by Snake or some other similarly Nietzscean hero, and Tassadar is not really the picture of Nihilism.

[Deepblue706]

I forgot his invisibility was merely a stealth suit...

But yes, I do recall he was very powerful. While Tassadar is no chump, Psycho Mantis does not equate a ghost. That's absurd. Sarah Kerrigan might have realized that Jim Raynor thinks dirty thoughts about her, but that doesn't mean he couldn't just mow her down with machine-gun fire if the need arised. Mantis could see the past, the present, the future, read a person's heart, guess how you played the game. They even went so far as to show his power was such that he could move your playstation controller from inside the game. Tassadar never shook my keyboard. Tassadar doesn't dodge bullets, or move very quickly, either. He doesn't use mind control, he isn't fueled by a burning rage. Mantis was a very dangerous man.

Mantis wanted to die, as VeisuItaTyhjyys said. Furthermore, he didn't just regularly walk down the street and eventually come to the conclusion that all of humanity only existed to pass on genes over the course of a month. He could sense thoughts all around him, all the time. That's kinda why he started murdering people. His mask gave him some seclusion from other people's minds - which is kinda why he asked for Snake to replace it before he died. It was so he could die with some peace. While Cwar's Mindpsy PrC might mimic his shtick of mind-reading for combat advantages, it's not like he was limited to a 20ft radius and his targets were granted a will save against a suck DC.

Naked Snake only beat Big Boss because Big Boss wanted to die, as well. Grey Fox was only "beaten" by Solid Snake because he was testing him. Not every "bad guy" in MGS is as easy as they seem. If you're judging Mantis as merely a Boss Fight who threw Chairs and Picture Frames with his mind, you're not paying attention to what he really was.

[Tengu]

Hmm, there is some truth in the pro-Mantis words, things that I didn't recognize before... but I still think Tassadar would win, only not as easily.

By the way, do you know what do the MGS1 bosses symbolize? I am curious and though I have my own ideas, maybe they haven't scratched the surface. Another proof that you can make a game that'll be a shooter/stealther, will have mercy invincibility, "ding!" sound when you get spotted and "ping" when an item comes out from an enemy... and be incredibly deep and complex.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, I can field this one. *pops out from under box*. Essentially, the bosses of Metal Gear Solid are successive metaphors for Solid Snake's own personality hangups. As he overcomes them, he becomes a better-adjusted person and a better soldier.

The Cyborg Ninja (spoilers: alias Frank "Grey Fox" Jaeger) clearly represents Solid Snake's past regrets. He's an old friend that Snake was forced to kill by circumstance; Snake must not only deal with that regret, but remember the good that was in Frank Jaeger, who eventually helps Snake survive. Perhaps as well, he represents Snake's fear of death, since he's a sort of technological ghoul. Beating the Cyborg Ninja alleviates Snake's guilt.

Psycho Mantis is a being of pure misanthropy. He's all of Snake's aggressive instincts (and probably several fetishes he refused to deal with, but lets not go into that). He forces Snake not only to recognize why he fights (not for hate or dominance, but to protect people), but to think beyond his basic animal fight/flight instincts. It's also notable that Mantis is something of a hypocrite...he maligns humankind for existing solely to destroy each other and pass on their genes like animals, and yet he exists only to destroy other humans as well. Beating Psycho Mantis affirms Snake's humanity (in the sense of "not animal nature").

Decoy Octopus doesn't get an entry because he's not a boss, and is killed entirely without Snake's knowledge.

Sniper Wolf, cliché as it is, does everything she does for love. Specifically, love for the memory of Big Boss. This can also be seen when she takes away Snake's love interest, and in Otacon's unrequited crush on her. Her final moments are also the most emotional of the FOXHOUND bosses, and Snake is forced to coup-de-grace her personally. Beating Sniper Wolf hardens Snake's heart and lets him sublimate his emotions

Vulcan Raven is a tricky one, as he gets little characterization (but some awesome lines). His role in his boss fight is purely to slow Snake down and distract him from putting together the emerging conspiracy theory. His dialog also constantly reminds Snake of the spiritual component of life, and how clarity of spirit is just as important as physical prowess. Put these two together, and defeating Vulcan Raven is a quasi-Buddhist metaphor for shedding earthly distractions.

Liquid Snake is the true doppelganger. He is Snake, but driven by hatred for himself and nearly everyone else. This one's easy. Beating Liquid means Snake has come fully to accept himself for the person he is, which Liquid never could.

Revolver Ocelot is...special. I could write a book on the guy (do you think Konami is hiring writers?) I'll leave him for later.

Of course, this is all sort of pulled out of my ass. Credit goes to Metal Gear Solid 3 for making the "Boss fights as personal growth metaphors" shtick so very, very explicit for me.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

There's two analyses, both of which are ture, knowing Kojima. Each one represents something Snake most overcome, somethign inside himself, as Nerd-o-Rama explained very well. There is the alternative analysis that each one existed (or, more probably, also existed) as a sort of force only Snake could defeat because of his vices.

Snake could defeat the Cyborg Ninja because he, like the Ninja, was not a human. He is a weapon that somehow is partially flesh and blood. The Ninja, at the time Snake fights him, isn't a cyborg, a man that's part machine, it's a Machine that a man somehow got stuck being a part of. Snake is the same way, he's a weapon that somehow breathes and bleeds. Facing his own kind of creature, the Ninja cannot cause fear by invisibility and his intimidating appearance, and Snake doesn't need the weapons most rely on to defeat the Ninja, thus preventing him from blocking them, because Snake is a weapon.

Psycho Mantis, as I stated, allowed Snake to destroy him because Snake not only refused to pass on his genes, but because, as he mentions himself numerous times, he isn't in this fight to protect people, just for himself. As Mantis says "Compared to you, I'm not so bad." Snake was the one being alive who didn't have an ounce of the weakness or compassion Mantis hated; he beat up a friend and risked her death with very little concern to defeat Mantis.

Sniper Wolf represents teh death of idealism, something Snake has long since accepted. This is infinitely more tragic than the simply hatred of Mantis or inhumanity of the Cyborg Ninja, because it shows that once, something beautiful existed, that the world and years in it have destroyed; Wolf states she has become a simple Dog. Meryl is young and idealistic, which is what allows Wolf to defeat her most especially, of all the bosses. Snake, on the other hand, has given up caring about the ideals involved in the mission. Because he doesnt' have a personal connection to his cause clouding his mind with emotion, his shots are just as clear as hers.

Vulcan Raven is most clearly of all the bosses testing Snake. He intentionally misses him with a Tank cannon when he could kill him with that first shot, and he challenges him throughout, rather than ambushing him. When he dies, his body turns into ravens and disappears, leaving only his mortal weapon behind. Vulcan Raven is commonly seen for physical prowess, being a giant of a man who walks around in the permafrost of Alaska totally shirtless. In truth, he represents detachment from the physical world, a more serious form of Sniper Wolf's emotional baggage (if you'll note, Snake because more emotionally damaged with each villain he kills, hence the more serious, tragic statuses of each), where there is no body, there is no pain, there is world around you, there is only success and failure. Snake is a purely competetive being, now, not interesting in achieving the mission as much as winning, defeating those who oppose him.

Metal Gear and Liquid Snake are the two final pieces in the puzzle, and generally require explanation into where the two theories unify; With each boss, Snake becomes more emotionally destroyed to face the next foe, who requires that ruin to overcome, essentially beating them at their own game. However, with each one, he is cutting away a negative aspect of himself. When he loses his inhumanity, he becomes hateful, when he loses his hatred, he becomes passion-less and morose, when he loses his disillusionment, he becomes competetive, when he loses his desire for victory, he becomes nothing. Now, he must recreate himself. Metal Gear Rex is the way of the world as it once was, Rex meaning King, for the leadership of the world, Rex like the dinosaurs whose time has passed. In destroying it, Snake frees himself from the shckles the world built around his now empty soul. Then, he stands atop the old world and faces all his own emptiness, everything that has ruined inside him and everything he has tossed aside, everything Powerful (with each boss he faces, Snake actually becomes weaker when he sheds the trait he needs to defeat them) he once was, just him and it. He throws it away, literally, the throws it down to the burning ruins of the world he used to be a part of. Snake is now free and a human being.

Revolver Ocelot has nothing to do with Snake. He's his own person, and one of the only characters in all of Metal Gear who truly is. In fact, the only character not in the Snake bloodline except, perhaps, the Sorrow. Ocelot is very closely tied to Metal Gear itself, in that he is to the world what Liquid is to Snake. He is pain, he is fear, he is hatred, he is sorrow, and his only joy comes from his and others' misery. He was born bathed in the blood of betrayal, and trained from an early age to backstab so many people even those who trained him never really knew whose side he was on. The answer, though, is nobody's. Not even his own. He is everything every other "evil" in Metal Gear is and more. He is the personification of Loss and Ruin as ideas. Liquid Ocelot is Liquid Snake using Ocelot to fill up his emptiness, and is thus actually more Ocelot than Liquid Snake, in a lot of ways, but drawn into so deep a black hole he can't escape. Ocelot isn't enough to fill the emptiness.

[Tengu]

I will show this thread to people to claim "Splinter Cell is better than Metal Gear Solid!!1one" as proof. And then, as they stand there dumbfounded, take advantage and beat the crap out of them and stuff them into a cabinet.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

You can also pull the awesome Kojima quote.

"The crates you hide in symbolize the veil consumerism puts over war."
"Really?"
"God no. They're boxes you hide under. They can't see you because you're under a box."

Or something like that. It's awesome.

[Mr. Scaly]

You can also pull the awesome Kojima quote.

"The crates you hide in symbolize the veil consumerism puts over war."
"Really?"
"God no. They're boxes you hide under. They can't see you because you're under a box."

Or something like that. It's awesome.

Heh. The box for Snake is like a blanket and plush doll for a five year old child.

[RandomLogic]

You can also pull the awesome Kojima quote.

"The crates you hide in symbolize the veil consumerism puts over war."
"Really?"
"God no. They're boxes you hide under. They can't see you because you're under a box."

Or something like that. It's awesome.

Alright that is fantastic. Also I never realized that MGS was such a deep story. Kinda wish I had a console to play it....

[Nerd-o-rama]

The story is very deep. The literary psychoanalysis I sort of made up on the spot, though. Just so you're aware, none of this sort of thing gets shoved in your face. And I like my theory better, because it's more optimistic. If I wanted a psyche damaged to the breaking point, I'd analyze Raiden :smallyuk:.

I'm not sure Ocelot's not a part of the "Snake heritage", though. For one thing, he's
The Boss's son, and therefore a brother of sorts to Big Boss.For another thing, Armliquid has apparently gained some semblance of dominance. But that plotline's just plain silly...

(And at this point, original MGS and a PlayStation would run you like 25 bucks. If you wanted the inferior GameCube remake, it'd cost about the same but be easier to find and you could play it on your Wii or whatever).

[SurlySeraph]

The Boss's son, and therefore a brother of sorts to Big Boss.
What?!
OK, I wasn't always paying full attention during Snake Eater. However, I'm sure that Naked Snake was the Boss's son. Which of us misunderstood?

Also, I think a lot of the pro-Mantis arguments are overthinking things a bit. In the context of the game, Snake defeats Mantis because he's fighting for himself and chooses to be great, etc.

But this is not asking what would happen if Tassadar had to infiltrate Shadow Moses Island. This is just two psychics on neutral ground trying to physically and mentally destroy each other. And, on the grounds of pure psychic power, Tassadar wins.

Tassadar killed the closest thing to a deity in the Starcraft universe with his psychic power. Granted, it had been greatly weakened first, and he used an aircraft carrier as a battering ram to focus his power through, but that's still an extremely impressive feat.

Tassadar has defeated many, many enemies in battle, including his fellow Protoss psychics. I disagree with the argument that Mantis could follow everything that Tassadar was plotting; Tassadar easily tricked Sarah Kerrigan, arguably the most powerful psychic in the Starcraft universe, into thinking he was somewhere where he wasn't. If Tassadar can deceive a hyperpowerful mind that can equal his own psychic feats with so little effort, he'll have no trouble tricking Mantis.

Mantis's real edge in the fight against Snake is that he can tell what Snake is going to do. Tassadar can hide what he's going to do, so Mantis is reduced to flinging chairs while Tassadar psi-storms him. It's that simple.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Nope, Ocelot was the Boss' son, with the Sorrow. All the Cobras called her "Mother" because she was such a maternal figure to them. Naked Snake was actually psuedo-romantically involved with her.

The thing I don't think Tassadar people are understanding is that the only person Mantis couldn't read was Snake, because Snake was Special in a way Tassadar isn't, which is where the psycho-analysis comes in. Tassadar isn't a strong man the way Snake is, without a past and with a future he makes with his footsteps and no sooner. Sarah Kerrigan can tell what Jim's thinking about her, Mantis needs an external focus not to know what a massive number of people are going to do very far in advance. He would go crazy from all the stupid and hateful things he heard people say without it. Well, crazier.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Here's the easily-missed radio conversation that ties together Ocelot's origin story, actually.
-Ocelot's Past (call Eva after fighting Ocelot)

Snake: Eva, I wanted to ask you about Ocelot...

Eva: Yeah, I know. He's pretty infatuated with you, isn't he?

Snake: That's not what I meant. Aren't the Ocelots an elite unit?

Eva: Yeah.

Snake: So how'd he get to be their commander? He can't be any older than 18 or 19. I can't believe he's already a major...

Eva: I heard from the Colonel that he's been given... special treatment.

Snake: Special treatment?

Eva: Yeah. He's the son of some legendary hero or something.

Snake: No wonder he seems to have the right stuff... So who is this legendary hero anyway?

Eva: Beats me.

Snake: ...

Eva: The Colonel never told me. All I heard was that his mother was supposedly shot in the gut during battle and that he was born right there with bullets whizzing past them.

Snake: A pregnant woman in the middle of a battle?

Eva: That's what I heard. They say that when they stitched her up, the scar
was shaped like a snake.

Snake: Well, that's battlefield medicine for you. What about his father, this legendary hero?

Eva: He didn't tell me. I don't think Ocelot's ever met his parents.

Snake: Are they dead?

Eva: Maybe. I don't know. There were a lot of MIA's back then, during the last days of the war. Ocelot probably would have ended up the same way. But he was taken in and raised by GRU and Volgin.

Snake: Because he was special?

Eva: That's my guess.
Take into account where the characters are making assumptions, and then stack it up next to the Boss's last pre-fight speech, and all is clear.

And Naked Snake's too old to be the Boss's son anyway. He's in his late twenties or later (hard to tell given that they retconned the timeline between 2 and 3), whereas the Boss's only child was born in 1944, only 20 years and two months, approximately, before the game starts.

[Tengu]

MGS3 spoilers galore! Good that I won't probably play it, because
1. I don't own a PS2.
2. I have yet to finish MGS2 anyway.

[Project_Mayhem]

(And at this point, original MGS and a PlayStation would run you like 25 bucks. If you wanted the inferior GameCube remake, it'd cost about the same but be easier to find and you could play it on your Wii or whatever).
(Emphasis mine)

I dispute that - I've played both and the gamecube version is better.

[Tengu]

I've heard it has worse voices, and some of the new stuff that happens crosses the line between "over the top, but cool" and "outwards silly".

[Deepblue706]

(Emphasis mine)

I dispute that - I've played both and the gamecube version is better.

It doesn't have the right Frank Jaeger. The original guy was so much better.

[Nerd-o-rama]

All of what's said, plus worse music and permanent easymode thanks to changing the player's capabilities (FPV shooting, mostly) without altering the level layouts.

[SurlySeraph]

And Naked Snake's too old to be the Boss's son anyway. He's in his late twenties or later (hard to tell given that they retconned the timeline between 2 and 3), whereas the Boss's only child was born in 1944, only 20 years and two months, approximately, before the game starts.

Well, yes, but I didn't expect logical minimum ages to interfere with Kojima's vision. Not after recessive genes (http://www.gigaville.com/comic.php?id=54), anyway. :smalltongue: