PDA

View Full Version : Wish by the RAW



Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 12:05 AM
OK. In a highpowered game I am submitting a character for the question of Wish abuse came up (in regards to getting it as an SLA or SU ability and getting around the XP cost). The DM took the position that by the RAW any wish can be twisted or DM fiated, not just those that aren't one of the listed effects.

Whether or not wish abuse is a good thing that should be allowed isn't up for debate here (depends entirely on the game, the players, and the DM).

I want to know how common the DM's interpretation is. Customer Service agrees with my interpretation and so does everyone I've talked to about it besides the DM.


Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
* Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
* Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
* Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
* Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
* Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
* Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Ryuuk
2008-02-02, 12:16 AM
Aside from also limiting the magic items created to a 25,000gp max, I use it as written. The way I understand it, only wishes that try to do create effects greater then those listed would have a chance of being perverted.

Ominous
2008-02-02, 12:18 AM
Your DM has poor reading comprehension. However, he is the DM, and, in his campaign world, wishes may happen to be very dangerous.

To answer your question, I do exactly what the rules allow, if I allow Wish for that particular setting.

huttj509
2008-02-02, 12:19 AM
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

<stuff>

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Bolding mine. The only mention of perverting the wish in Raw is when it comes to effects greater than those mentioned. For the effects mentioned, the experience cost itself is considered sufficient penalty for gaining the desired effect.

If someone had it as a 1/day ability? Hey, everyone just got +1 to all their stats, costs nothing but time. 2/day? 2/week (since they could cast both is succession), +2.

Any workaround that removes the xp cost, making it just a 9th level spell, would, in my opinion, be deserving of a houserule forcing every use of it to risk the danger normally associated wih only the greater effects. However, this is not in RAW, though neither is gaining wish as a SLA or SU ability, I believe.

LibraryOgre
2008-02-02, 12:21 AM
I base it entirely on the source of the wish.

A wish cast by the character is likely to conform to their desires in most respects.

A wish cast by an item will take the "least power required" literal meaning... it won't try to actively hurt you, but it won't try to interpret things helpfully, either.

A wish cast by a helpful entity (as a reward, for example), will conform to your desires as that creature understands them.

A wish cast by a compelled entity will conform to the literal requirements, but that's it... the entity fulfilling it will do what it can to pervert the intent.

RAW, I would agree with you, and would use those examples as guideline of reasonable (I also apply the gp limit to magic items) requests of wishes.

Worira
2008-02-02, 12:47 AM
RAW, the listed wishes aren't supposed to be twisted, as far as I can tell. Keep in mind, though, that if the DM says they are, they are.

TheOOB
2008-02-02, 12:50 AM
The wish spell involves the caster altering reality to suit their whims, and thus a wish will usually follow the spirit of the wisher, assuming the wisher is the one who cast the spell.

When casting wish, you don't need to write out a legal document. The only time your wish should backfire is when you wish for something that is obviously a very bad idea (eg. eternal life = temporal stasis). If the wish can be accomplished within the preset bounds (say by emulating a spell) it will do so, if it cannot, the DM decides if the wish is possible for a 9th level spell, if it is, it happens, if not, the wish either a)tries to fulfill the wish as best as possible(a wish for the most powerful magic sword ever may still get you a magic sword, just not the most powerful one), or b)simply fails.

Items would, as stated above, follow the path of least resistance. They would have some ability to identify the intent of the wish (and would never fail if it was for one of the listed things in the wish entry), but would otherwise try to do what the wisher wanted in the way that affects the least number of people the smallest amount. Remember, as a general rule, magic items don't have a sense of humor or irony, they won't try to make a fool out of your or prevert your wish(unless specifically designed to, eg the monkey's paw), nor should they be hopelessly literal, they are designed to help the wielder. They simple do what the wielder says to the best of their ability.

When dealing with other, wish-casting beings, however, all bets are off. They cast the wish, not you, and while they may be obligated to follow the wording of your wish, they are the ones who choose how they follow the wording. When getting a wish from an efreet, break out the profession(lawyer) skill(not that they wouldn't have more ranks then you).

Wish is the ultimate DM's fiat spell, it has a list of what is can defiantly do, everything else is up to the DM. It's balancing factor is that it costs a ton of XP, a quarter of the amount neccesary to go from level 20 to 21 in fact.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 12:52 AM
RAW, the listed wishes aren't supposed to be twisted, as far as I can tell. Keep in mind, though, that if the DM says they are, they are.

And the DM saying it would be him using Rule 0. Let's just be clear. I wouldn't allow half the stuff the DM is allowing me to get away with if I was DMing. And if the DM wants to Rule 0 that supernatural wish's have an XP cost that is ok with me. And if he wants to Rule 0 that any wish can be twisted at any time just because he feels like it, thats ok as well. My problem is with the DM saying that by RAW he can twist any wish, including ones used for listed effects like Inherent bonuses to a stat.

Maerok
2008-02-02, 12:54 AM
Outside of the clearly defined options of Wish, I would generally twist a poorly worded Wish unless you were able to really lock down what you mean with something like *successful* Truenaming.

Swordguy
2008-02-02, 01:25 AM
And the DM saying it would be him using Rule 0. Let's just be clear. I wouldn't allow half the stuff the DM is allowing me to get away with if I was DMing. And if the DM wants to Rule 0 that supernatural wish's have an XP cost that is ok with me. And if he wants to Rule 0 that any wish can be twisted at any time just because he feels like it, thats ok as well. My problem is with the DM saying that by RAW he can twist any wish, including ones used for listed effects like Inherent bonuses to a stat.

And in that he is incorrect.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)


This is the only part of the RAW that mentions Wish perversions, and it clearly refers to doing something besides what is listed. By Rule 0, he's right. By the RAW for Wish, he's wrong. No discussion needed.

sikyon
2008-02-02, 01:46 AM
Do the following:

Ask him to point out where in wish it says he can pervert it.

He will then point out the clause.

The point out to him that clause only applies if you are using an effect not listed. If you are using an effect listed, then that clause doesn't apply, therefore there is no basis for perverting wish.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 01:58 AM
Do the following:

Ask him to point out where in wish it says he can pervert it.

He will then point out the clause.

The point out to him that clause only applies if you are using an effect not listed. If you are using an effect listed, then that clause doesn't apply, therefore there is no basis for perverting wish.

I did. He seemed(s) to fail to understand how parentheses work. His opinion was/is that because of the period after dangerous and the fact that the twisting clause is its own sentence then it applies to all wishes.

Swordguy
2008-02-02, 02:12 AM
I did. He seemed(s) to fail to understand how parentheses work. His opinion was/is that because of the period after dangerous and the fact that the twisting clause is its own sentence then it applies to all wishes.

Then beat him with a grammar textbook until he acquiesces.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-02, 02:34 AM
I think he should read the spell in the PHB or the SRD again which is pretty clear and decide if he wants it in his game. He's kicked the ball back to you. You can have the ability in his game but only if he can twist it as desired since you said he lets you get away with stuff in his game he probably wants rule 0 as his insurance policy because Wish as written is hard to manage in game particularly with a PC who can cast them daily without experience point cost.

Sounds pretty cool that he is willing to let you bring it into his game since it really places a burden on him as the DM for finding challenges for the PCs he is probably just envisioning the nightmares you could be giving him with the ability if he can't twist it at will in the campaign. You create no experience magic items up to 25,000 gp and he curses them so no instant wealth machine or tailored equipment for each encounter in game.

Sounds like the Runesmith PRC. Another way to do it is to pick up the Luck domain for No Experience Arcane Miracles 2/Day with High Arcana and the Arcane Disciple feat Luck domain with a high level arcane caster so no making magic items without the experience points forfeited by the PC mostly just spell duplication.

Would you and the DM be amenable to using Limited Wish in the campaign as written as a compromise since it is a bit more toned down?

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 02:44 AM
For this game the DM is just saying that he will be twisting the wishes. And I don't really feel like going and typing up multi page legal documents to lock down my wish(s) exactly. So I just won't be using it.

But this is the first time I've ever had anyone say that by RAW the DM can twist wishes used for the listed effects when cast by the player. Oh if you brow beat a Pit Fiend into giving you a wish one can expect it to be twisted as the Pit Fiend attempts to word it in such a way so as to have negative consequences. But when the PC is the one using the wish, well it's a new one for me.

-----
I was planning on shapechanging into a Zodar (Fiend Folio) which has 1/year wish as an SU ability and wishing for a Tome of Clear Thoughts +5.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-02, 02:51 AM
Tome of Clear Thought +5 is a 137,500 gp magic items that basically take 5 Wishes to make.

Although there may be a few games where a DM wouldn't twist that Wish which excedes the capability of a standard Wish and is by default a greater Wish effect most DMs would IMO bringing along the Lich and Vampire cohorts or other guardian of the Tome or bring the PC to the location of the Tome usually with their gear as per the transportation effect of the Wish.......

I had a DM who said it was common Wish lore not to shapechange into a Zodar to use the Wish ability....More Zodars, Misfortune....

The best way to get Wishes in game IMO is the Thaumaturgist PRC -1 with the Planar Ally spell and paying a Efreeti or Noble Djinni both 10HD for the short term service with a Cleric or an Arcane caster with the Arcane Disciple feat Summoning domain for minimal experience cost and the service fee at L11 or L12+.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 03:19 AM
Tome of Clear Thought +5 is a 137,500 gp magic items that basically take 5 Wishes to make.

Although there may be a few games where a DM wouldn't twist that Wish which excedes the capability of a standard Wish and is by default a greater Wish effect most DMs would IMO bringing along the Lich and Vampire cohorts or other guardian of the Tome or bring the PC to the location of the Tome usually with their gear as per the transportation effect of the Wish.......

I had a DM who said it was common Wish lore not to shapechange into a Zodar to use the Wish ability....More Zodars, Misfortune....

The best way to get Wishes in game IMO is the Thaumaturgist PRC -1 with the Planar Ally spell and paying a Efreeti or Noble Djinni both 10HD for the short term service with a Cleric or an Arcane caster with the Arcane Disciple feat Summoning domain for minimal experience cost and the service fee at L11 or L12+.

It doesn't exceed the capabilities of a standard wish. It's creating a single magic item, which has no GP limit attached. And even if you rule that you can just grab the inherent bonuses from wishing them on yourself or another.

The best way to get free wishes is Shapechange into a Zodar. It is as if you cast the wish in every respect except no XP or material cost.

Swordguy
2008-02-02, 03:20 AM
For this game the DM is just saying that he will be twisting the wishes. And I don't really feel like going and typing up multi page legal documents to lock down my wish(s) exactly. So I just won't be using it.


Ask for an Intelligence or a Spellcraft check to come up with a wording in-character that can't be twisted. Make the check, make your wish. It's the character that should have to come up with the wording, not you the player. That's metagaming.

Riffington
2008-02-02, 10:39 AM
By RAW, the spell is called "Wish". And wishes never come out exactly like you wanted them. If it were called "Superior Magical Effect" by RAW, then the effects would be much more likely to be what you wanted them.

Also: RAW is unclear about which wishes are perverted.
Parenthetical statements are assumed to be related to the sentence before, not necessarily to be only related to the sentence before. For example, compare this entry to one on how to wake up trolls:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

You may try to wake up a troll with a stick, but doing so is dangerous. (The troll may want to eat you.)

Well, it might be saying that the troll might want to eat you, but only if you wake it up with a stick. Or it might be saying that all trolls might want to eat you, and that therefore a stick is a particularly dangerous way to wake one up.

It is similarly entirely plausible that all wishes may pervert your intent (the fact that the spell is titled "Wish" implies this to certain people) - and that therefore producing greater effects than these is a particularly dangerous idea.

Yeah, so by RAW, RAI, and Rule 0, the DM's rule is a plausible one. The fact that he's told you this *before* you started the game means you can't complain - just don't use wishes if this bothers you.

Indon
2008-02-02, 11:43 AM
I was planning on shapechanging into a Zodar (Fiend Folio) which has 1/year wish as an SU ability and wishing for a Tome of Clear Thoughts +5.

Asking for the creation of a magical item which itself exceeds the capabilities of a Wish is begging for a wish perversion. Why would the Wish be able to create anything that could do something the Wish itself could not? (Edit: Otherwise, why not just ask for a +20 epic weapon, sell it, and buy six tomes with the cash?)

Now what the Wish could definitely do, is cast a Greater Teleport to get you that Tome.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-02, 12:04 PM
Asking for the creation of a magical item which itself exceeds the capabilities of a Wish is begging for a wish perversion. Why would the Wish be able to create anything that could do something the Wish itself could not? (Edit: Otherwise, why not just ask for a +20 epic weapon, sell it, and buy six tomes with the cash?)

Now what the Wish could definitely do, is cast a Greater Teleport to get you that Tome.

By RAW its legal, the gp limit being only applied to mundane objects and a suppossedly greater xp cost for creating any level of magic item. Not how I'd write it but oh well.

And to the OP, your DM is being overly harsh on this one. Wish is suppossed to be the most powerful non-epic-casting spell in existance, it drains five thousand xp and he wants to automatically screw all uses? Why then would any wizard have come up with it? If it always goes wrong in some way no matter how you word it then it would have either been forgotten and passed over for someting better or they'd have kept it in R&D until they figured it out. DnD doesn't have a magic system which includes failure chances and effect distortions except under special situations. That being said they're the DM so there's not a whole lot to do.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-02, 12:50 PM
Asking for the creation of a magical item which itself exceeds the capabilities of a Wish is begging for a wish perversion. Why would the Wish be able to create anything that could do something the Wish itself could not? (Edit: Otherwise, why not just ask for a +20 epic weapon, sell it, and buy six tomes with the cash?)

Now what the Wish could definitely do, is cast a Greater Teleport to get you that Tome.

Wish can make magic items, it doesn't make you near a past created item (in someone's possesion) or give you a item. It creates it.

The iterm did not exist prior to you creating it. Copies of it do (there are a lot of Tomes), but not the one you made.

Riffington
2008-02-02, 01:24 PM
Wish is suppossed to be the most powerful non-epic-casting spell in existance, it drains five thousand xp and he wants to automatically screw all uses?

That's not at all what OP said. He said that any casting might go wrong or be perverted. Not that every casting would. The DM has said that every casting gives him a blank check for adding fun/amusement. Not that he would necessarily screw the character.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-02, 03:13 PM
It doesn't exceed the capabilities of a standard wish. It's creating a single magic item, which has no GP limit attached. And even if you rule that you can just grab the inherent bonuses from wishing them on yourself or another.

The best way to get free wishes is Shapechange into a Zodar. It is as if you cast the wish in every respect except no XP or material cost.

Yes it does excede the capability of the standard Wish:

* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

It takes 5 Level 9 Sorcerer or Wizard arcane Wishes or divine Greater Miracles to make a +5 Tome of Thought or 5 Charge Luckblade and as a Zodar you get 1 Wish that will create a magic item or duplicate a single spell effect up to level 8 so even the spelllike/supernatural experience cost side stepping mechanic shouldn't work.


The best way to get free Wishes depends on your campaign. I had a DM who said the Zodar free Wish trick only worked 1/year regardless of how often you shapechanged into a Zodar because the PC was the Zodar. Any PC who used the Pit Fiend trick had a choice of becoming LE (Atone the first time) or Damned to the 9 Hells on the spot in a DM timeout.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofClearThought

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-02, 05:53 PM
Any workaround that removes the xp cost, making it just a 9th level spell, would, in my opinion, be deserving of a houserule forcing every use of it to risk the danger normally associated wih only the greater effects. However, this is not in RAW, though neither is gaining wish as a SLA or SU ability, I believe.

I agree. Any being that does not normally have access to a wish as an SLA and normally has to pay an xp cost would essentially be adding 'without the xp cost' to any of those wishes. While the more common ones shouldn't cause too much of a problem, I should think your character would have to word his wishes carefully.

The DM can always make houserules to address potentially game-breaking situations. OP, pulling the 'everyone else agrees with me, DM, so you're wrong' card is very very poor form. He may know full well how the rules are written and disagree with them. Personally, I'd just limit whatever ability it is that allows you to get wish as an SLA since it seems there'd be less of an argument there.

Ah, but your question was about how common it is... Well, I recall in 2nd edition that it was in fact the case that all wishes were up to the DMs interpretation with the warning that the bigger the wish, the bigger the potential screw-up. As I haver a bit of nostalgia for the olden days, I alter wishes slightly as well. In the games I DM for instance, you must always word your wish in an appropriate manner. You may specify a desired effect, but it's the wording that counts. If the desired effect and wording falls in line with the normal abilities of a wish, it's usually a non-issue. Things may not work out EXACTLY as you'd intended, but ultimately you'll still get the same effect.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 06:01 PM
But you tell your players this before the game starts, correct?

I personally have no problem with houserules and I have a ton I use in the games I run. Stopping Wish abuse is one of the things I have houseruled.

But I don't say "Well I may or may not twist any wish no matter what it is for, no matter the circumstances because I feel like it. And the RAW supports me on this.". I have ruled that I can interpret any wish however I feel like before (the game had to do with magic being out of wack and weird things happening with spells) but I told the players and made no attempt to say it was RAW.


That's my real question. How many people believe that the RAW for Wish (and check the PHB, the SRD omits a few important sentences, page 302) allows the DM to twist any wish, no matter what it is for?

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-02, 06:03 PM
The wish spell involves the caster altering reality to suit their whims, and thus a wish will usually follow the spirit of the wisher, assuming the wisher is the one who cast the spell.

When casting wish, you don't need to write out a legal document. The only time your wish should backfire is when you wish for something that is obviously a very bad idea (eg. eternal life = temporal stasis). If the wish can be accomplished within the preset bounds (say by emulating a spell) it will do so, if it cannot, the DM decides if the wish is possible for a 9th level spell, if it is, it happens, if not, the wish either a)tries to fulfill the wish as best as possible(a wish for the most powerful magic sword ever may still get you a magic sword, just not the most powerful one), or b)simply fails.

Items would, as stated above, follow the path of least resistance. They would have some ability to identify the intent of the wish (and would never fail if it was for one of the listed things in the wish entry), but would otherwise try to do what the wisher wanted in the way that affects the least number of people the smallest amount. Remember, as a general rule, magic items don't have a sense of humor or irony, they won't try to make a fool out of your or prevert your wish(unless specifically designed to, eg the monkey's paw), nor should they be hopelessly literal, they are designed to help the wielder. They simple do what the wielder says to the best of their ability.

When dealing with other, wish-casting beings, however, all bets are off. They cast the wish, not you, and while they may be obligated to follow the wording of your wish, they are the ones who choose how they follow the wording. When getting a wish from an efreet, break out the profession(lawyer) skill(not that they wouldn't have more ranks then you).

Wish is the ultimate DM's fiat spell, it has a list of what is can defiantly do, everything else is up to the DM. It's balancing factor is that it costs a ton of XP, a quarter of the amount neccesary to go from level 20 to 21 in fact.

I'm not disagreeing you, but none of this is RAW. If a wish cast by an item is used to go beyond the normal limits, nowhere does it say that is HAS to fail or that it HAS to only partially grant the wish. As a DM, I usually go for the 'literal interpretation'. Eg: Wishing for the most powerful sword in the world will bring it to you, but the people with the most powerful items in the world tend to have ways of tracking them down.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-02, 06:20 PM
But you tell your players this before the game starts, correct?

I personally have no problem with houserules and I have a ton I use in the games I run. Stopping Wish abuse is one of the things I have houseruled.

But I don't say "Well I may or may not twist any wish no matter what it is for, no matter the circumstances because I feel like it. And the RAW supports me on this.". I have ruled that I can interpret any wish however I feel like before (the game had to do with magic being out of wack and weird things happening with spells) but I told the players and made no attempt to say it was RAW.


That's my real question. How many people believe that the RAW for Wish (and check the PHB, the SRD omits a few important sentences, page 302) allows the DM to twist any wish, no matter what it is for?

It sounds like the your DM told you before the game started as well.

I'm curious what method you are using to get wish as a spell-like ability. Could you list your sources?

While I disagree with your adversarial approach to this... No, it does not say in the RAW that any wish can be twisted by the DM and nobody thinks there's any sentences omitted. Your new question answers itself. Ask your DM that same question. See how it goes.

You have a few options:
- Take something less (or more) cheesy than wish as a SLA
- Accept your DM's ruling
- Don't play in the game

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 06:33 PM
It sounds like the your DM told you before the game started as well.
I got the "I may or may not twist wishes" opinion after a 3 page debate and it was pulling teeth to get that much out of him.


I'm curious what method you are using to get wish as a spell-like ability. Could you list your sources?
Shapechange into a Zodar (Fiend Folio). They have wish as a supernatural ability so it has no XP cost.
Someone else planned on gating in a Solar.
Another was going to abuse dwemerkeeper.
Another was goign to gate in Noble Dijinni.


While I disagree with your adversarial approach to this... No, it does not say in the RAW that any wish can be twisted by the DM and nobody thinks there's any sentences omitted.

Actually the following is the relevant paragraph from the SRD:

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

This is the same paragraph from the PHB:
[suote=PHB page 302 on Wish]You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's current owner. Wishing to be immortal could get you imprisoned in a hidden extradimensional space (as by an imprisonment spell) where you could "live" indefinitely.[/quote]

The PHB is much clearer.


Your new question answers itself. Ask your DM that same question. See how it goes.
I did ask him. His opinion that the RAW allows him to twist any wish for any reason.


You have a few options:
- Take something less (or more) cheesy than wish as a SLA
- Accept your DM's ruling
- Don't play in the game
I'm not playing in the game.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-02, 07:05 PM
When I said the bit about it not allowing any wish to be twisted by the DM, I meant that it doesn't let ANY wish be twisted by the DM, just the ones it specifically states.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-02, 07:38 PM
And the DM saying it would be him using Rule 0. Let's just be clear. I wouldn't allow half the stuff the DM is allowing me to get away with if I was DMing. And if the DM wants to Rule 0 that supernatural wish's have an XP cost that is ok with me. And if he wants to Rule 0 that any wish can be twisted at any time just because he feels like it, thats ok as well. My problem is with the DM saying that by RAW he can twist any wish, including ones used for listed effects like Inherent bonuses to a stat.
If he is using Rule 0, then that's not RAW. And that way he could twist ANY spell if he so desires. He could make spells like True Strike give the character a -10 to spot/listen for one round, make fire spells deal some damage to the caster, and Divine Power make the caster become fatigued after the effect ends.

But by RAW, he can twist only what's in the list. I.e.: replicating spells, enhancing stats, and making magic itens, doesn't.

luagha
2008-02-02, 08:15 PM
I think it should go something like this:

"You decide to cast Shapechange to shapechange into a Zodar to make a free wish. In the surprise round at <roll> Initiative 19, four Maruts are teleporting in. Please roll for initiative."

After resolution of combat - or discussion - with the Marut, the player may proceed. Repeat as necessary.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 08:26 PM
I think it should go something like this:

"You decide to cast Shapechange to shapechange into a Zodar to make a free wish. In the surprise round at <roll> Initiative 19, four Maruts are teleporting in. Please roll for initiative."

After resolution of combat - or discussion - with the Marut, the player may proceed. Repeat as necessary.

I wish. The Maruts wouldn't be a problem, those can be soloed easily enough. And Maruts only deal with people trying to cheat death. It's some other inevitable that deals with people messing up reality.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-02, 08:44 PM
I wish. The Maruts wouldn't be a problem, those can be soloed easily enough. And Maruts only deal with people trying to cheat death. It's some other inevitable that deals with people messing up reality.
One hunts oath breakers, other hunts death cheaters, and other hunts those that escape from justice. Is there one that hunts those that mess up reality? That one could have a very high CR, and enough powers to not be one-shot by wizards.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 08:54 PM
One hunts oath breakers, other hunts death cheaters, and other hunts those that escape from justice. Is there one that hunts those that mess up reality? That one could have a very high CR, and enough powers to not be one-shot by wizards.

There was in 3.0. In the MM2 if I remember correctly.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-02, 10:10 PM
There was in 3.0. In the MM2 if I remember correctly.

Fiend Folio: Quarut CR17 w/ 18HD, pg 102. It can be advanced up to 54HD. Comes with Temporal Stasis, Time Stop and Limited Wish as SLAs.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 03:12 AM
But by RAW, he can twist only what's in the list. I.e.: replicating spells, enhancing stats, and making magic itens, doesn't.

Sure by RAW the DM can only twist what's in the list but let's not lose sight of what the Wish was: He was Wishing for a +5 Tome of Clear Thought with a "Single" Wish shapechanged as a Zodar in a high level game.

By RAW with each Shapechange the PC could change into a Zodar (SU) Wish 1/year, would that RESET the (SU) Wish 1/year ability?

By RAW could the PC change into something else then change back into a Zodar, wout that RESET the (SU) Wish ability?

High level games can be fun to play but they are tough to run with Wishmaster PCs who can routinely do game breaking stuff that it is difficult for a DM to have to deal with on a regular basis.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Will a single Wish normally enhance a ability score +5 by itself? No, a single Wish will only enhance a stat +1 according the the PHB and SRD unless used in conjuntion with other Wishes:

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the highest level spell a Wish will duplicate normally? Level 8:

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

What level spell is a Wish? Level 9

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

By RAW is using a Wish to duplicate a Single Level 9 Wish spell a "Greater" effect? Yes

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How many Wishes does it take to make a +5 Tome of Clear Thought or a 5 charge Luckblade? 5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A level 11+ PC can choose to have access to Planar Ally in game as a standard full caster (Cl/Wizard) (Going Favored Soul or Sorcerer L12+) PC has access to Planar Ally

Arcane Disciple feat Summoning Domain gets the arcane fullcaster Planar Ally 1/Day as a bonus spell (Which can be abused by taking the bonus spell in a higher level slot in most games). The DM can choose not to let your Planar Summoning be answered by a Wish Granting Genie (Noble Djinni or Efreeti but most DMs will let a PC use it to duplicate needed spell effects that are not game breaking (Resurection for a dead PC or NPC) or advance the adventure or campaign.

Planar Ally has a 250 Exp point cost to cast.

A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD. (This can be reduced with a level dip in Thaumaturgist -1 and a successful diplomacy check via the Improved Ally special with a similarly aligned outsider).

A Noble Djinni or a Efreeti has 10 HD so that is 1,000 gp since a Wish only takes 1 standard action to cast and the PC will normally be L11+ so 10 minutes to talk and explain what is desired.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Talic
2008-02-03, 05:10 AM
Sure by RAW the DM can only twist what's in the list but let's not lose sight of what the Wish was: He was Wishing for a +5 Tome of Clear Thought with a "Single" Wish shapechanged as a Zodar in a high level game.

By RAW with each Shapechange the PC could change into a Zodar (SU) Wish 1/year, would that RESET the (SU) Wish 1/year ability?

By RAW could the PC change into something else then change back into a Zodar, wout that RESET the (SU) Wish ability?

High level games can be fun to play but they are tough to run with Wishmaster PCs who can routinely do game breaking stuff that it is difficult for a DM to have to deal with on a regular basis.


Extension of the Supernatural Ability feat from the expanded psionic handbook, your limitation matches the creature. If you change into a creature (such as a pit fiend), make your 1 wish/year, then you may not use that spell like ability, even if you later shapechange into the creature again, until one year has passed.

Wish is powerful, yes, but it has definite limits. The guideline I usually use is the spells (since there's so many), and the healing examples. Most of the others are derived from the spells list.

Wishing that you had a permanent +20 to attack is too powerful...

Wishing that the party barbarian was able to benefit from a true strike spell on his next attack, is not.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-03, 10:15 AM
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

What is the highest level spell a Wish will duplicate normally? Level 8:
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
What level spell is a Wish? Level 9

By RAW is using a Wish to duplicate a Single Level 9 Wish spell a "Greater" effect? Yes
How many Wishes does it take to make a +5 Tome of Clear Thought or a 5 charge Luckblade? 5
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.From the SRD. Seems within the spells powers.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 04:20 PM
From the SRD. Seems within the spells powers.

No not as a standard Wish spell effect without triggering a DM "Greater" Wish effect consequence in game.

I'm not saying the Wish spell can not make magic items in game just not magic items based on spell effects outside of the Wish spell limitations.

The Wish spell is limited to duplicating Level 8 arcane spells.

It takes Five Level 9 Wishes to make the item in question.